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Neilbert 05-06-2010 07:08 PM

It got him married to the Seanchan Empress, the only person in Randland arguably more powerful than the Amyrllian Seat (not including Rand most likely).

halo6819 05-18-2010 01:25 PM

i tried searching through the entire post, with no luck, but have the 1/3 of the aes sedai running around ever been satisfactorily explained? could they all be following cadsuane's leadership? or are they truly independent.

JSUCamel 05-18-2010 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo6819 (Post 98300)
i tried searching through the entire post, with no luck, but have the 1/3 of the aes sedai running around ever been satisfactorily explained? could they all be following cadsuane's leadership? or are they truly independent.

As far as I know, the 1/3rd of the Aes Sedai unaccounted for are truly unaccounted for. It's unlikely (as in: we don't really have evidence) that Cadsuane is in an explicit leadership role over these Aes Sedai*. I strongly suspect that we won't even hear from them, except in generalities, such as "hundreds of Aes Sedai stood ready at the Last Battle" or some such. Alternately, "hundreds of Aes Sedai glared sternly at the Trollocs while sipping tea."

* Though to be fair, most Aes Sedai look up to (or at the very least, defer to) Cadsuane.

GonzoTheGreat 05-18-2010 04:13 PM

Cadsuane does seem to have scooped up a fair number, but nowhere near the majority of those missing Sisters, I think.

Random thought: could (and would) the Seanchan make a Tinker damane give up the Way of the Leaf?

JSUCamel 05-18-2010 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 98346)
Random thought: could (and would) the Seanchan make a Tinker damane give up the Way of the Leaf?

I don't see how the Tinker would have a choice...

GonzoTheGreat 05-19-2010 05:21 AM

The Tinker could keep refusing to do harm to others. Even Egwene held out for a while, and she's never been proper Tinker material.

nategator 05-28-2010 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckparrothead (Post 97155)
Thanks. That's always bothered me.

He asked for three things, he got four.

Q: Can I have these holes in my memory filled?
A: Sure, have some war time memories.

Q: Can I have a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the One Power?
A: Ok, here's a medallion.

Q: Can I go home now?
A: Yeah, but swinging from a tree.

Q: _________________?
A: Have a spear with ravens and a rhyme, on the house.

The next logical assumption would be that the spear has something to do with fulfilling his other three desires, either the filling his memories, the being free of Aes Sedai and the One Power, or going home. Not sure the spear got him home and I can't imagine the spear is somehow integral to his head being filled with war memories.

And thus, somehow the spear makes him free of Aes Sedai and the One Power. But, how?

Could Moraine have directed for it to be given to him after receiving it in Rhuiden? Something to the extent of, give Mat the key to saving me or something to that extent. The spear is shown fairly prominently on the cover, suggesting it is important (although the same could be said about the infamous Lanfear hat).

If so, then maybe this fact combined with the assumption that we all think we know about its importance (as hanging accessory and Tuon bait) could be the thing that ends up saving the day. Mat could presumably enter the E'A' region with this bit of iron since it originally belonged to them in the first place.

nameless 05-28-2010 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 98421)
The Tinker could keep refusing to do harm to others. Even Egwene held out for a while, and she's never been proper Tinker material.

If you're linked and someone else is in control of the circle, you have no choice in what they make you weave. The only reason the Aes Sedai can hold out is that they are physically incapable of forming combat weaves. The damane obedience training isn't strictly necessary; the sul'dam can take direct control through the a'dam any time they choose to. All that torture is just cause the Seanchan have such a massive hard-on for regimentation that they need to make sure the people at the bottom of the hierarchy act like trained dogs.

GonzoTheGreat 05-28-2010 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 99548)
If you're linked and someone else is in control of the circle, you have no choice in what they make you weave. The only reason the Aes Sedai can hold out is that they are physically incapable of forming combat weaves. The damane obedience training isn't strictly necessary; the sul'dam can take direct control through the a'dam any time they choose to. All that torture is just cause the Seanchan have such a massive hard-on for regimentation that they need to make sure the people at the bottom of the hierarchy act like trained dogs.

I'm not sure that is correct. It definitely does not square with Egwene's training as a damane.
An alternative which makes more sense is that sul'dam can actually channel, or at least some of them.

nameless 05-28-2010 03:55 PM

Reread Nynaeve explaining the linking process to the Sea Folk, Tuon putting an a'dam on Joline, or Rand's experience in the Domination Bands. If the person wearing an a'dam wants to take control of the link and forcible direct the weaves of the Power you're holding there's no way to stop them. Egwene's training was obedience training, nothing more.

Sarevok 05-28-2010 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 99595)
Reread Nynaeve explaining the linking process to the Sea Folk, Tuon putting an a'dam on Joline, or Rand's experience in the Domination Bands. If the person wearing an a'dam wants to take control of the link and forcible direct the weaves of the Power you're holding there's no way to stop them. Egwene's training was obedience training, nothing more.

This would be my recollection of things as well, especially since one of the Forsaken (can't remember who) remarked on "involuntary links".
The only reason the Seanchan need the damane to be obient is because they haven't figured out the sul'dam are channelers too.

Terez 05-29-2010 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 99595)
Reread Nynaeve explaining the linking process to the Sea Folk, Tuon putting an a'dam on Joline, or Rand's experience in the Domination Bands. If the person wearing an a'dam wants to take control of the link and forcible direct the weaves of the Power you're holding there's no way to stop them. Egwene's training was obedience training, nothing more.

These are three different things. I gather that Tuon's ability with the a'dam is stronger than that of most sul'dam. I think most of them have to train the damane to do the channeling. Even the experienced sul'dam won't admit to being able to see the weaves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok (Post 99597)
This would be my recollection of things as well, especially since one of the Forsaken (can't remember who) remarked on "involuntary links".
The only reason the Seanchan need the damane to be obient is because they haven't figured out the sul'dam are channelers too.

The involuntary links Moridin thought of (when he was spying on Aviendha as she unwove her gateway) are the methods that the Black Ajah use to question people by forcing them into a circle (which isn't supposed to be possible...but Sareitha was ignorant of it when she spoke about it in the next few chapters somewhere because the Sea Folk were paranoid about linking).

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo
i tried searching through the entire post, with no luck, but have the 1/3 of the aes sedai running around ever been satisfactorily explained? could they all be following cadsuane's leadership? or are they truly independent.

There are only about 2-300 that are unaccounted for. Some of them are actually accounted for, such as Liandrin's 13 (who were not officially Black Ajah or outcast from the Tower, exactly), and the 13 with the Borderlanders. Cadsuane is suspected to be advising anywhere from 50 to 100 of them. She has several of those with her, and she mentioned more in TGS (the sisters that were 'retired from the world' - none of the ones with her are old enough to be retired). Also, there were many sisters in and out of The Silver Swan in Caemlyn, and Elayne's spies heard Cadsuane's name mentioned there, and then hushed. There were also a lot of Aes Sedai in and out of Cairhien, and Cadsuane was there for long enough to have had something to do with them.

Neilbert 05-29-2010 02:41 AM

Involuntary rings could also refer to the a'dam. Ishy certainly knows of it's existence and assuredly knows how it works. There's absolutely no reason to think it isn't both.

Terez 05-29-2010 02:49 AM

Sure there is, since one is achieved by a ter'angreal and therefore isn't all that extraordinary. The other challenges deeply-ingrained beliefs about how linking actually works.

Weird Harold 05-29-2010 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarevok (Post 99597)
The only reason the Seanchan need the damane to be obient is because they haven't figured out the sul'dam are channelers too.

Actually the Seanchan have forgotten (or deliberately suppressed) the knowledge that Sul'dam are Learners; when the institution was originally established, it was known and understood that the a'dam only worked for one woman who could channel to control another woman who could channel.

Tuon's reaction to Mat's assertion that she could channel, too, strongly suggests that the top echelon of Seanchan are still aware of the truth and that the general knowledge has been actively supressed.

Neilbert 05-29-2010 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 99642)
Sure there is, since one is achieved by a ter'angreal and therefore isn't all that extraordinary. The other challenges deeply-ingrained beliefs about how linking actually works.

You know this how exactly?

Terez 05-29-2010 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 99651)
You know this how exactly?

Don't play stupid.

Neilbert 05-29-2010 12:09 PM

I'm not playing anything, but good job reading into things that aren't there.

Terez 05-29-2010 12:33 PM

It's simple logic, dear. Obviously, the thing that the Black does with involuntary links is a new thing. If it was something that was done in the Age of Legends, then there wouldn't be anything special about it from Moridin's perspective. He includes it in a category of things that Third Agers do that people from his Age would never have considered. He's sure to know about it since he had contact with the Black Ajah before the other Forsaken were freed. It's even likely that Ishamael himself invented the a'dam based on what he'd learned from the Black Ajah; he was active at the time that it was introduced by Deain. But again, ter'angreal can do all sorts of crazy things, but forcing someone into a circle is supposed to be impossible.

GonzoTheGreat 05-29-2010 12:56 PM

Perhaps he invented the a'dam based on the e've which already existed. But that one was made during the Breaking, and I think that Moghedien was correct in asserting that it had been an attempt to deal with the madness.

I do like the idea that he gave it to Deain, though. That'd be a neat revelation for Tuon, when she discovers how her entire family has been played for fools for centuries by the Shadow.


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