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Neilbert 05-29-2010 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 99660)
If it was something that was done in the Age of Legends, then there wouldn't be anything special about it from Moridin's perspective.

Did I miss something? Cus I don't recall the a'dam being a part of the Age of Legends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
But again, ter'angreal can do all sorts of crazy things, but forcing someone into a circle is supposed to be impossible.

I'm sure he would have regarded a ter'angreal that Healed severing as just as impossible as a weave.

Weird Harold 05-30-2010 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 99662)
Did I miss something? Cus I don't recall the a'dam being a part of the Age of Legends.

The a'dam was not, of course part of the AOL -- nor was the E've -- but the AOL had several ter'angreal's that controlled Channelers in vaguely similar manner to the a'dam's "ground rein" function that keeps damane from wandering off.

Moridin could consider the a'dam merely an extension of AOL technology without considering the imbalanced link it creates an "involuntary ring." The a'dam doesn't truly form a Link, it just approximates a true Link.

What the BA does is not an extension or extrapolation of AOL technology, it directly contradicts what the AOL 'KNEW' to be true. The same thing applies to Healing severing and Un-weaving Gateways -- they aren't "nearly impossible" or "very dangerous," or "consequences of combining multiple weaves", they are known impossibilities to the AOL being enacted as a direct, unambiguous action by Third Agers.

Neilbert 05-30-2010 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 99705)
The a'dam was not, of course part of the AOL -- nor was the E've -- but the AOL had several ter'angreal's that controlled Channelers in vaguely similar manner to the a'dam's "ground rein" function that keeps damane from wandering off.

ok thats nice wtf does this have to do with involuntary rings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
The a'dam doesn't truly form a Link, it just approximates a true Link.

:rolleyes:

it doesn't form a true link it just does everything a link can do
whatever goober

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
What the BA does is not an extension or extrapolation of AOL technology, it directly contradicts what the AOL 'KNEW' to be true. The same thing applies to Healing severing and Un-weaving Gateways -- they aren't "nearly impossible" or "very dangerous," or "consequences of combining multiple weaves", they are known impossibilities to the AOL being enacted as a direct, unambiguous action by Third Agers.

yeah you're dumb and clearly just doing this to have a dumb argument. there's a button for you.

Enigma 05-30-2010 09:19 AM

First off Neilbert I would go easy on calling Weird Harold dumb. He is one of the most knowlegable posters here on a wide variety of topics. Disagree with him if you want but there is no need to be rude.

With that said I think WH is wrong. I always took the adam to be the involuntary link. By way of evidence when Nynaeve captures Moggy in TER and used her to help Rand against Rahvin Moggy specifically says to Nynaeve that they are linked (via the adam) but that she (Nynaeve) is contributing nothing to the link because of the way she was in the world of dreams and could not draw very deeply on Saidar. I took it to mean that if Nynaeve was there fully and linked she would not have been as frightened about going up against Rahvin as it would be two forsaken class female channeres as opposed to one forsaken with a hanger on.

Now the adam is not like the typical link with allows for others to be brough in up to a max of 13 unless there are men. Egwene who would know something about the adam specificall says that damane can't link.

Neilbert 05-30-2010 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma (Post 99738)
First off Neilbert I would go easy on calling Weird Harold dumb. He is one of the most knowlegable posters here on a wide variety of topics. Disagree with him if you want but there is no need to be rude.

I don't disagree he's knowledgeable in a variety of areas and some of what he posts is quite interesting especially the military history stuff. However, he also likes to get into really stubborn dumb arguments, which is exactly what he is trying to draw me into here. It's dumb, and if he wants to split hairs with the worlds sharpest knife to prove some sort of "point" he can do it with himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma
With that said I think WH is wrong. I always took the adam to be the involuntary link. By way of evidence when Nynaeve captures Moggy in TER and used her to help Rand against Rahvin Moggy specifically says to Nynaeve that they are linked (via the adam) but that she (Nynaeve) is contributing nothing to the link because of the way she was in the world of dreams and could not draw very deeply on Saidar.

Yes, this is essentially reason 562 why I'm right, this argument is dumb, and I should just roll my eyes and move on.

Looking up quotes to prove that the a'dam is a link is about as dumb as looking up quotes to prove Rand can channel, but here ya go anyways:

Quote:

Nynaeve wanted to shut her up; the fear sweat glistening on the woman's face made her sick, but if she had to listen to that pleading voice, too... She started to channel, wondering whether she would be strong enough to hold Moghedien's tongue, then smiled. She was linked to Moghedien, and in control. Moghedien's eyes bulged as she wove flows to stop her own mouth and tied them. Nynaeve added plugs for her ears too, before turning to Birgitte. "What do you think?"
Quote:

"We are linked." Still not paying attention, Nynaeve gave her braid a sharp pull. No way to tell which direction they had gone. And no warning of anything until she saw them. Somehow it still seemed unfair that they could channel without her being able to see or feel the flows. A stand-lamp that had been sliced in two was suddenly whole again, then not, just as quickly. That white fire must be incredibly powerful. Tel'aran'rhiod usually healed itself rapidly whatever you did to it.
"You brainless fool," Moghedien sobbed, shaking Nynaeve's skirt with both hands as if wanting to shake Nynaeve. "It does not matter how brave you are. We are linked, but you contribute nothing the way you are. Not a shred. It is my strength, and your madness. They are here in the flesh, not dreaming! They are using things you have never dreamed of! They will destroy us if we stay!"

Terez 05-30-2010 09:54 AM

For the record, I know that the a'dam creates a link. That's not my point.

Neilbert 05-30-2010 10:07 AM

I really don't actually know what your point is. You are seemingly just firing buckshot and hoping to score a hit.

Or maybe that's just me wanting to believe you aren't trying to redefine impossible to mean "impossible without a ter'angreal".

halo6819 05-31-2010 12:51 AM

another small point came to me today while listening.

in the prophosies of the dragon it says that rand will bind the DotNM to him.

as tuon/fortuna can channel maybe he will bind her with an oath rod.

i doubt it though...

jana 05-31-2010 01:10 AM

I'm continuing to go with Mat & Perrin as the binding

Weird Harold 05-31-2010 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 99741)
For the record, I know that the a'dam creates a link. That's not my point.

what she said^^^

At the time Moridin made the comment about involuntary rings, the a'dam was the only candidate for the term.

In TGS, we learned that the BA had found a way to draw a woman into a link without her consent and without a ter'angreal; a method that any group of channelrs could do if they knew the weave.

My point is that the BA's method is a better fit for the term "involuntary ring" than the a'dam and therefore what Moridin was referring to.

halo6819 05-31-2010 04:50 AM

sorry to be such an idiot, but i think i missing a couple key pieces of info here.

1. what is the "E've"

2. where did it say in TGS that the BA could force someone into a link. i dont doubt that its therwe, i just must have missed it

Neilbert 05-31-2010 05:10 AM

The e've is the male version of the a'dam that Rand got collared with by Semi. Forcing someone into a link is mentioned in Verin's notes maybe? Certainly by the Black Ajah hunters in the Tower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 99797)
My point is that the BA's method is a better fit for the term "involuntary ring" than the a'dam and therefore what Moridin was referring to.

that's nice, was never in dispute, and does absolutely nothing to contradict the idea that he was talking about both

Enigma 05-31-2010 07:33 AM

I suppose both could be described as an involuntary link, the question is was this capactity to draw in a woman against her will know in the AoL?

We do know that they had linking in the AoL, it was how a lot of the greatest works with the OP were done and usually invovled mixed gender circles.

I could be totally off base here but going by how the AS explained to the Kin & Elayne about linking it was my impression that before gentling became the standard way of dealign with male channelers after the breaking the AS experimented with trying to force men into circles. If it could be done with a woman in control it gains the AS the use of Saidan and stops the mad channeler destroying all around him. It was found to be impossible to force a man into a circle but again its my understanding that they discovered that a circle that was large enough could draw in a woman against her will.

Now the quesion is was this a new discoverey by the Third Age AS or where they re discovering what was known in the AoL and lost in the breaking. I would have though that given how linking was such a big deal in the AoL they AS would have known all there was to know about it on the other hand given how ethics were so important before the way they may not have experemented on how to force a channeler into a link against her/his will.

Short of a direct answeer from either Brandon or Maria I don't think we can be certain either way what RJ meant, I still favour the adam but I think there is reasonable doubt for either arguement.

Neilbert 05-31-2010 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma (Post 99818)
It was found to be impossible to force a man into a circle but again its my understanding that they discovered that a circle that was large enough could draw in a woman against her will.

If this is true there's no evidence for it in the books that I'm aware of and also it was buried pretty hard because it's currently a Black Ajah secret.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma
Short of a direct answeer from either Brandon or Maria I don't think we can be certain either way what RJ meant, I still favour the adam but I think there is reasonable doubt for either arguement.

It's not an either/or thing. There is no reason it couldn't be both. Nobody has argued that he wasn't referring to the Black Ajah interrogation method.

JSUCamel 05-31-2010 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo6819 (Post 99806)
sorry to be such an idiot, but i think i missing a couple key pieces of info here.

1. what is the "E've"

2. where did it say in TGS that the BA could force someone into a link. i dont doubt that its therwe, i just must have missed it

The "e've" is the male "a'dam" (a play on Adam and Eve). I don't think it's ever referred to as an e've, but we call it that here sometimes.

Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the argument between Neilbert and Terez was about your second question, and I think the idea is that the only examples of forcing someone into a link are a'dam-related. I don't think it's possible to force someone into a link without an a'dam.

Terez 05-31-2010 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSUCamel (Post 99828)
Someone else can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the argument between Neilbert and Terez was about your second question, and I think the idea is that the only examples of forcing someone into a link are a'dam-related. I don't think it's possible to force someone into a link without an a'dam.

You're wrong, of course. And it's funny because the veracity of my claim was never under debate.

For halo, it's in KOD, not TGS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Knife of Dreams
PROLOGUE - Embers Falling on Dry Grass

“Last night, Talene received an order to appear tonight before their ‘Supreme Council.’” Her mouth twisted around the words in distaste. “It seems that happens only if you’re being honored or given a very, very important assignment. Or if you’re to be put to the question.” Her lips almost writhed. What they had learned about the Black Ajah’s means of putting someone to the question was as nauseating as it was incredible.

Forcing a woman into a circle against her will? Guiding a circle to inflict pain? Pevara felt her stomach writhing. “Talene doesn’t think she’s to be honored or given an assignment,” Yukiri went on, “so she begged to be hidden away. Saerin put her in a room in the lowest basement. Talene may be wrong, but I agree with Saerin. Risking it would be letting a dog into the chicken yard and hoping for the best.”


Neilbert 05-31-2010 12:33 PM

Is it in Verin's notes anywhere? I honestly don't recall. I mean mentioned. It's almost certainly in Verin's notes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 99840)
You're wrong, of course. And it's funny because the veracity of my claim was never under debate.

Even more hilarious is the fact that in my post just above his I tried to make it clear that even if Ishamael was referring to the a'dam with that little comment, he was also certainly referring to the Black Ajah secret.

Weird Harold 05-31-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo6819 (Post 99806)
1. what is the "E've"

"E've" is the result of several long threads all the way back to the ezBoard version of the forums where we got tired of typing out "The Sad Bracelets" and my insistence that they are NOT a "Male A'dam" -- because at the time of that original discussion, we knew nothing about how they functioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo6819 (Post 99806)
2. where did it say in TGS that the BA could force someone into a link. i dont doubt that its therwe, i just must have missed it

It took me a day or two to find it because it is in fact NOT in TGS, it is in KoD:
KoD
Prologue
Embers Falling on Dry Grass


The serving women passed beyond earshot, and Pevara was about to bring up the suggestion when Yukiri spoke again.

"Last night, Talene received an order to appear tonight before their ‘Supreme Council.'" Her mouth twisted around the words in distaste. "It seems that happens only if you're being honored or given a very, very important assignment. Or if you're to be put to the question." Her lips almost writhed. What they had learned about the Black Ajah's means of putting someone to the question was as nauseating as it was incredible.

Forcing a woman into a circle against her will? Guiding a circle to inflict pain?
Pevara felt her stomach writhing. "Talene doesn't think she's to be honored or given an assignment," Yukiri went on, "so she begged to be hidden away. Saerin put her in a room in the lowest basement. Talene may be wrong, but I agree with Saerin. Risking it would be letting a dog into the chicken yard and hoping for the best."

halo6819 05-31-2010 03:18 PM

thanks terez and WH, now i can follow properly

Enigma 05-31-2010 04:06 PM

[QUOTE=Neilbert;99820]If this is true there's no evidence for it in the books that I'm aware of and also it was buried pretty hard because it's currently a Black Ajah secret.QUOTE]

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment but going from memory in APoD when an AS is explaining linking to the Windfinders she stated that they experemented with linking to try to bring male channelers into circles against their will and I think she said it was a failure.

The Windfinder then gets worried thinking that the Aes Sedai can force women into a circle and the Aes Sedai gives a very Aes Sedai answeer along the lines that "a woman cannot force anotehr woman into a circle". She is very careful not to say that several woman can't force a link as I believe the circle has to have a certain number before it can force others in.

This could be what happened to Nynaeve with the rebel AS when the bubble of evil sprang up and she was having difficulty embracing the source and I think the leader of the nearelst link got tired of waiting and snatched her into the link.


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