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Enigma 11-01-2009 12:38 PM

There have been a few comments that if things don't start to grow no one will be left alive for the Last Battle. A rediscovery of Seed Singing combined with Rand's hopefully brigher attidude would certainly be useful for the forces of the light.

Tamyrlin 11-01-2009 12:55 PM

Slap our Foreheads
 
So, Fisher/Rand/Dragon and the Land/Tinker/Song idea, a very good possibility. We haven't been focused on the combination of ideas...and Rand's direct connection was highlighted in this book, alluding to what's possible for ToM as it pertains to Rand.

Muirenn, write it up already. :)

Marie Curie 7 11-01-2009 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muirenn
Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom.

This was discussed here by Weird Harold and others just a couple of weeks ago, though. Here's the link to the recent thread that includes discussion of the Fisher King and Rand's ties to the land. The Fisher King stuff comes up around the bottom of p. 2 (post #36 or thereabouts). And TGS only serves to support what I think WH was trying to point out...

The Fisher King discussion does tend to come up from time to time...you would have to look in the archives (yuku) and not just in the theories on the main page to find some of the other threads.

Tamyrlin 11-01-2009 02:00 PM

Nicely pieced together WH
 
Here is the quote off of the Dragonmount forum:
Quote:

I was at the signing in Roseville, MN last night and asked Brandon a question regarding Graendal possibly not being dead. I started by saying that Graendal was ordered to keep Arad Doman in chaos. After she was killed Rand was forced out of Arad Doman because all of the food he brought spoiled all at the same time, not in random intervals like had happened before due to the dark ones touch. My question to Brandon is was this food spoilage caused by the Dark One or could it have been a strong channeler with inverted weaves, perhaps someone who was ordered to make sure that Rand's plans in Arad Doman failed?

Brandon told me explicitly that this was not caused by someone channeling but instead it was caused by Rand. Roberet Jordan evidently left strong notes regarding the fact that the quote we heard early on in the story from Thom about "The dragon is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon" will be emphasized towards the end of the stroy. When people complained that only bad Ta'veren things happened in Bandar Eban when Rand was there with no offsetting good things this was an examples that as Rand has hardened and become darker the land has also grown more dark. The spoiling of all the food at once was also caused by the darkness in Rand.

It was pleasant to get such a direct response from Brandon and I would recommend that anyone who can get to a signing should do so. He never said RAFO when I was there, it was just ICSBOCO (I Can't Say Because Of Contractual Obligations)

Note: This is also posted in the forsaken thread but a moderator suggested cross posting it here as well due to the fact it has a firm author response.
Of course this suggests...that the small detail and shocker is not in fact tied to Rand and the Land...in the sense that Brandon specified in this instance...and I kind of doubt he'd do that after making a big deal about the secrecy.

Muirenn 11-01-2009 02:57 PM

That means I have to take time to do actual research. :P

Anyway, another possibility that a friend suggested is that Taim is controlled by Demandred via a broken mindtrap:

Quote:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 25 - Mindtrap
He reached into the open neck of his shirt, and her own tongue clove to the roof of her mouth. Her eyes fixed on the small cage of gold wire and blood-red crystal that he drew out dangling on a cord. She thought vaguely that he tucked another just like it back in, but she had eyes only for her own. It definitely was hers. His thumb stroked, and she felt that caress across her mind, her soul. Breaking a mindtrap did not require much more pressure than he was using. She could be on the other side of the world or farther, and it would not matter a hair. The part of her that was her would be separated; she would still see with her eyes and hear with her ears, taste what crossed her tongue and feel what touched her, but helpless within an automaton that was utterly obedient to whoever held the cour'souvra. Whether or not there was any way to get free of it, a mindtrap was just what its name implied. She could feel the blood draining from her face.
It's in book 7, so a bit later than indicated, but still an intriguing idea! Not sure that I completely buy the logic (Demandred likes to work by proxies, he isn't posing as anyone we've seen onscreen (tricksy!), and he has ties to the BT.)

jason wolfbrother 11-01-2009 03:25 PM

Excpe that is Moridin with Moghedien's mindtrap. And we later learn that Cyndane is also mindtrapped and her mindtrap is held by Moridin as well. no connection to Demandred or Taim with that quote.

Muirenn 11-01-2009 03:32 PM

Salient part of the quote is what happens when a mindtrap is broken. The mindtrapped person becomes an automaton.

Tercel 11-01-2009 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muirenn
It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing.

He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer.

He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates.

The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear.

He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state.

Just something I've been kicking around for a while. :)

Yes! You've convinced me that this is what BS meant. The Fisher King is one with the land, and his injuries and mental states affect the world. As in the other quote he will Sing to the land to make green things grow. I'm guessing the Tinkers' "Tell the Dragon Reborn" means that the Tinkers need to talk to Rand to tell him about how he needs to Sing.

Terez 11-01-2009 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muirenn
Tam, the 'small detail' would be Thom's comment, which most people have ignored. Mythology and legend (and the WoT world being the source thereof) have been major themes. The Fisher King legend is one that has been mostly ignored by the fandom.

It's not just a small detail given by Thom, though - it's given in full later on:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - A Crown of Swords

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

- From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon by the poet Kyera Termandal, of Shiota, believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800.

So, I doubt that's it.

Davian93 11-01-2009 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSUCamel
Slightly off topic, but I think perhaps you should censor the "thing" in Mistborn that was crucial to the plot. There are many here who have not read the series and may be tempted to read them now that they've read Brandon's writing in TGS. Therefore, we shouldn't spoil that series, too. After all, Brandon himself didn't give away what it was at the signing in Vegas.

I believe you've referenced the thing in question three or four times this thread. If you could edit it out or change it to something else, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

No problem. I wasn't thinking. My apologies.

EDIT: Fixed now.

nameless 11-01-2009 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muirenn
It's Rand. Thom's mention that the Dragon Reborn is one with the land and the land is one with the Dragon. The things that keep happening to the world at large roughly follow Rand's wounds and moods. Much of what has been attributed to th Dark One is actually Rand's doing.

He is wounded at Falme, which cannot be healed, and is constantly warm to the touch, and the land enters a long summer.

He is cut by the Shadar Logoth daggar and things begin to rot. He grows increasingly paranoid and suspicious of his friends and allies because the wound is never healed and the spoilage accelerates.

The barriers between his past lives begin to thin and he is able to access memories from them, and ghosts (memories of previous times) start to appear.

He sinks deeper into madness/depression and the 'good' things normally caused by his ta'veren nature stop, leaving only the bad. A parallel to his mental state.

Just something I've been kicking around for a while. :)

Aren't we looking for something from books 4-6, though? The Dragon/Fisher King parallel was set up right off the bat in EOTW.

Kingoftonga86 11-01-2009 05:29 PM

Thinking about Thom and Moiraine...is it possible that the small thing is when Moiraine told Thom that she would see him again at some point in the future? Although this won't really be that surprising when it happens...

I'm guessing it's something to do with Moiraine, and what she knows that means Rand will fail without her. Something from her questions to the Aelfinn? She has a few POVs in Books 4 and 5 that I should reread.

Although she claims in her note to Rand that she knows nothing about what happens after "except perhaps for one small thing which does not concern you"...so I doubt her answers from the 'Finn can have to do with the future, as that "one small thing" is probably Thom's attempted rescue.

Now I'm all confused. I just finished a reread, and already I'm ready for another...

Terez 11-01-2009 05:39 PM

Well, that comment from her has always been confusing, to me, because we know that Min shared all of her viewings with Moiraine, so Moiraine knows several thing about the future, including her marriage to Thom.

JSUCamel 11-01-2009 06:39 PM

I don't think it's the health of the land thing. The Fisher King parallel has been mentioned in the books so many times and in such detail that I'm not convinced that's the small detail that nobody talks about.

Of the things mentioned here, I'm most inclined to believe the "need" thing.. what's in the Tower that they couldn't get?

Having said that, none of the options here really strike me as being of the same kind of innocuous detail that can play a big role later on. Whoever said that it was likely to be someone's eye color or dress color or an identifying detail seems to make the most sense to me.

Having said THAT.... I have no idea what it could be. I love all these new ideas we're talking about though.

Zaela Sedai 11-01-2009 06:50 PM

I know, makes me want to post in WoT again :D

Trutino 11-01-2009 07:24 PM

I think we've gotten too grand with our speculation. Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that. As an example, it is a big deal at first but then keeps harmlessly popping up long after it seems important. I don't know that it's that one but I like it as a model.

What are some things that people wear all the time or carry? i.e. jewelry, weapons, etc. Does anyone have an accent or a favorite phrase that they're always saying? Will Balwer dry wash someone important to death? :)

Terez 11-01-2009 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSUCamel
Of the things mentioned here, I'm most inclined to believe the "need" thing.. what's in the Tower that they couldn't get?

Probably another bowl. There were tons of them in the Age of Legends - small regions were each controlled by one of them. If not, another ter'angreal that could have done something similar. They could always get Aviendha to visit and find out...

Callandor 11-01-2009 07:43 PM

Two tidbits
 
I remember RJ being pressed about his favorite chapter before, and he gave the standard answer of "The chapter I'm working on." But then he was a bit more revealing and said that the chapters he thought he did the best were the Rhuidean columns. Those of course have a lot of material, and do touch on the song.

Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 24 - Rhuidean

Done? What was done? What did he mean? "Burn your eyes," he muttered. "Burn your souls! You are as bad as Aes Sedai. Well, I want a way to be free of Aes Sedai and the Power, and I want to be away from you and back to Rhuidean, if you will not answer me. Open up a door, and let me " "Done," another man said, and one of the women echoed, "Done."
Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

Terez 11-01-2009 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trutino
I think we've gotten too grand with our speculation. Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that.

As to Fel's comment about the seals - that came out in this book quite sharply, so it's hardly a hidden detail. The reason Rand asked Fel about it in the first place was that Lews Therin appeared to take over his body and try to break the seal that Taim had given him. So Rand asked Fel if there might be a reason why someone would break the seals. Fel seemed to think the idea was ridiculous and even a bit horrifying. But then he left the note about 'clearing the rubble - belief and order give strength'. The 'order' part might refer to something to do with the Seanchan, or just establishing order in general. The Aiel do it. Egwene has done it in the Tower. Elayne has done it in Caemlyn, etc. Belief obviously has to do with people believing that it is important to fight, like the Borderlanders in the prologue (and I think it also will come into play when they have to keep fighting after Rand dies).

If you want something interesting from Fel, it might be that he didn't seem to believe the Dragon Reborn could actually make the prison whole like the Creator made it.

If you want something from Fain....that's a good one for him to be confused about whether the info was introduced in 4, 5, or 6, because Fain was prominent in those books. The Two Rivers is a good mental landmark, and he might have been thinking, 'Well, I know it wasn't before the Two Rivers (book 4), and I know it wasn't after Lord of Chaos because that's the last time we see Fain before the incident in Cairhien where he knifes Rand (book 7), and then the incident in Far Madding (book 9).'

Maybe Fain's special talents? Torturing Fades? Being able to see Darkfriends? Being able to make people do weird things? Some people thought when Crossroads came out that maybe Fain had caused the problems in So Habor.

Terez 11-01-2009 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callandor
Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?

Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

I think Gonzo suggested in another thread that maybe leavetaking is part of the ancient agreement, so they just threw something else in to make up for the fact that he wasted a wish on it.

But it also goes with the Aelfinn doorway experience - why the three extra answers? We know they were trying to get him (and Rand) out of there before the place came down on their heads or whatever, but I'm just saying.


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