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Belazamon 11-01-2009 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callandor
Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?

Ooh. You know, I like this one too.

Trutino 11-01-2009 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Callandor
I remember RJ being pressed about his favorite chapter before, and he gave the standard answer of "The chapter I'm working on." But then he was a bit more revealing and said that the chapters he thought he did the best were the Rhuidean columns. Those of course have a lot of material, and do touch on the song.

Another bit from one of those chapters is something that would relate to the Finn: why the hell did Mat get the ashandarei?



Memories, and the medallion are the two obvious ones. He's back in Rhuidean afterwards so that was done, too. Why the ashandarei?

http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/pimp.gif

The ashandarei was actually the weapon I had in mind when I suggested that the detail might be something like a weapon that someone carries around all the time. I just assumed that the gift of the ashandarei was so strange that it must have been discussed to death already.

Terez mentioned a theory that suggested that the ashandarei was part of the leavetaking agreement but I got the feeling that the only reason Mat was allowed to leave at all was because he used one of his wishes to be back in Rhuidean. Otherwise he might have become one of the human skins the Foxes wear. Perhaps they gave the spear to him because he is ta'veren? Is the metal it is made out of important?

Terez 11-01-2009 10:28 PM

The ravens on it might be.

Nelal Hurcran 11-01-2009 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trutino
I think we've gotten too grand with our speculation. Someone mentioned Min's bookmark from Fel as a possibility upstream and I think it might be something more like that. As an example, it is a big deal at first but then keeps harmlessly popping up long after it seems important. I don't know that it's that one but I like it as a model.

What are some things that people wear all the time or carry? i.e. jewelry, weapons, etc. Does anyone have an accent or a favorite phrase that they're always saying?

When I heard the reference to Mistborn, my first thought was that it would have something to do with Mat's medallion, as the two objects in question are similar from a literary standpoint. Although the ashandarei does seem more likely.....

Weird Harold 11-01-2009 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trutino
Perhaps they gave the spear to him because he is ta'veren? Is the metal it is made out of important?

Somewhere in the Yukko version of these forums is an old exBoard thread about "Suitable Weapons" where I suggested that the Ashendarei was a roundabout wedding gift to Tuon because it resembles a Naginata which was considered to be a "suitable weapon" for women to defend the home estate while the warriors were out doing "warriorry things."

Belazamon 11-01-2009 10:41 PM

The only reason I think it may not be the ashendarei is that it's already served a very important non-weapon purpose - it attracted Tuon's interest in Mat in the first place.

Trutino 11-01-2009 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Somewhere in the Yukko version of these forums is an old exBoard thread about "Suitable Weapons" where I suggested that the Ashendarei was a roundabout wedding gift to Tuon because it resembles a Naginata which was considered to be a "suitable weapon" for women to defend the home estate while the warriors were out doing "warriorry things."

Thus far the ashandarei has been a kinda cool, pointy thing with a snarky inscription on it.

(Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made. Thought is the arrow of time; memory never fades. What was asked is given. The price is paid.)

The memories and the medallion have already played major parts in the overall storyline. Has the ashandarei done anything like that so far? It interested Tuon but it was his ring with the ravens in flight that tipped her off about him being her future husband, not the ashandarei. The ashandarei seems to be the "Chekov's gun" of the Eelfin experience that still needs to be used.

Davian93 11-01-2009 10:51 PM

What if the ashandarei is an angreal, sa'angreal or ter'angreal? That would be ironic.

What if it were the Blade of Light?

Terez 11-01-2009 11:11 PM

Well, the reference to the Mistborn detail makes me think we should be able to figure it out if we think about it enough. I'm not seeing how the ashandarei could save the day, even at Ghenjei. Anyone got any ideas?

Trutino 11-01-2009 11:24 PM

In TFhH Lan says that it was made with the one power during the War of the Shadow. Why does it have Ravens on it? Why not a heron? Of course, herons were for blademasters and maybe some people put other birds on their blades. Why such a sinister bird? It wasn't the Seanchan symbol back then. Who made it?

JSUCamel 11-01-2009 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Well, the reference to the Mistborn detail makes me think we should be able to figure it out if we think about it enough. I'm not seeing how the ashandarei could save the day, even at Ghenjei. Anyone got any ideas?

What if we look at it a different way:

What are our main plotlines?
And from that, what is needed to resolve those plotlines?

And then, do we have a hint or suggestion of a solution from books 4-6?

Is this possible, or are the plot line resolutions too vague and unpredictable to do this? Can we use foreshadowing from parallel instances to draw a conclusion about what a solution might be?

Mistborn example:
Spoiler:
Vin and Zane are both having hallucinations. They both have piercings. At the same time, we know that the Inquisitors and others have spikes through them, and we know about the quote "trust nothing not written in steel". We should have been able to draw a conclusion that Zane's hallucinations and Vin's hallucinations were connected, that what they have uniquely in common are piercings, and that Ruin can manipulate any creature via Hemalurgy.


Here's a WoT example of the question I'm trying to ask:

Thom, Mat and someone else must enter the Tower of Ghenjei to rescue Moiraine. At some point, I believe it was revealed that the Finns were based within and/or accessible from the Tower. We were also given the indication from the Rings that they don't like music or fire. Similarly, with the Snakes and Foxes game, we discover that the only way to beat the game is to cheat.

Do we have any hints as to how to cheat the Finns?


The point is, we can pore over books 4-6 and look for tiny details and ponder about them, but unless we can attach it to a plot line, then it won't matter.

ShadowbaneX 11-01-2009 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trutino
Finally, is there anything that hasn't been beaten to death about these two? (Davram and Mazrim):

Joiya tells Egwene that the Black Ajah plan to free Mazrim Taim and set him up as a false dragon in book four (they go to Tanchico instead), Mazrim Taim escapes from the Aes Sedai in book four, we find out Bashere goes AWOL in book five, Bashere leads a taunting Mazrim Taim to Rand in book five, Mazrim Taim sets up Black Tower in book six, etc.

Actually you remind me of something Trutino, namely Taim's taunting of Bashere when they meet: Compulsion. He used Compulsion, or something very much like it on two of Bashere's officers (and I believe their wives) when they first met. If Taim's been sitting in the Black Tower using Compulsion on everyone for the past several months what could that mean?

[Ogier]Hmmm, hmmmm.[/ogier]

kivo 11-01-2009 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lironah
Light burn me, I just found something. Might not be the piece in question, but...

LoC p. 183, paperback. Graendal meeting with Ituralde in Arad Doman. You know she wouldn't miss the chance to do something to him.

Good catch, Ituralde is a particularly combustible ally for Rand heading into Book 13. There's this Graendal factor you just highlighted ... and I agree, I don't think she'd miss the chance to tamper with him. Plus Rand didn't keep up his end of the deal in Arad Doman (though he could theoretically correct that post-tGS).

I personally loved the way Rand took Graendal out. I thought it was clever, and I don't need to see a one-on-one power-duel with each and every Forsaken. Plus it served a very important purpose within the story of showing just how far to the Dark Side he'd gone. Balefiring and thus forever ending the souls of a bunch of people to get at one is just flat out evil. You could argue it is just as bad as feeding a city to Trollocs.

However, maybe if Graendal gets a stab from beyond the grave by having a Manchurian candidate-ized Rodel Ituralde turn on the Good Guys, that will salve those wounds a bit for those who don't agree that the impact on the story and speeding Rand's way to hitting rock bottom was worth Graendal going out like that.

Weird Harold 11-02-2009 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kivo
...Balefiring and thus forever ending the souls of a bunch of people to get at one is just flat out evil. ...

Balefire doesn'y destroy souls, it just sends them back to the Soul Pool sometime before the Balefire was actually woven. "Soul" and "Thread" aren't synonymous although they are usually congruent under normal cicumstances.

Trutino 11-02-2009 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trutino
Finally, is there anything that hasn't been beaten to death about these two? (Davram and Mazrim):

Joiya tells Egwene that the Black Ajah plan to free Mazrim Taim and set him up as a false dragon in book four (they go to Tanchico instead), Mazrim Taim escapes from the Aes Sedai in book four, we find out Bashere goes AWOL in book five, Bashere leads a taunting Mazrim Taim to Rand in book five, Mazrim Taim sets up Black Tower in book six, etc.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX
Actually you remind me of something Trutino, namely Taim's taunting of Bashere when they meet: Compulsion. He used Compulsion, or something very much like it on two of Bashere's officers (and I believe their wives) when they first met. If Taim's been sitting in the Black Tower using Compulsion on everyone for the past several months what could that mean?

[Ogier]Hmmm, hmmmm.[/ogier]

He does know compulsion. (LoC, 93) Unless he used the Verin method and talked to lots of male wilders with daddy issues, he probably learned it directly from someone. Perhaps the same source he learned his other old-knowledge weaves. Maybe whoever helped him escape from his Aes Sedai guard?

Terez 11-02-2009 12:21 AM

I believe that RJ said Taim did NOT use Compulsion. Check the database.

Yuri33 11-02-2009 12:27 AM

I'd like to throw another one out there:

From what I've seen you guys talking about, Rand's new paradigm for success stems from what could be grouped "positive" feelings, including love:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BS (TGS, 759)
It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

Within that moment, suddenly something amazing occurred to him. If I live again, then she might as well!

That's why he fought. That's why he lived again, and that was the answer to Tam's question. I fight because last time, I failed. I fight because I want to fix what I did wrong.

I want to do it right this time.

The love part is obvious, his "Veins of gold." And he's likely to have many of the other positive feelings as well, though when he comes back down to reality and surveys the state of the world, he may not like what he sees. So I figure, maybe a small little place we were told about way back when might be able to help him out:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ (TSR, Rhuidean)
Rand stopped so suddenly that Mat went three strides nearer the columned rings before realizing it. Rand was staring at the tree, Mat saw. The tree. Mat found himself moving toward it as if drawn. No tree had those trefoil leaves. No tree but one; a tree of legend.
"Avendesora," Rand said softly. "The Tree of Life. It's here."
Under the spreading branches, Mat leaped to catch one of those leaves; his outstretched fingers fell a good pace short of the lowest. He satisfied himself with walking deeper beneath that leafy roof and leaning back against the thick bole. After a moment he slid down to sit against it. The old stories were true. He felt.... Contentment. Peace. Well being. Even his feet did not bother him much.
Rand sat down cross-legged nearby. "I can believe the stories. Ghoetam, sitting beneath Avendesora for forty years to gain wisdom. Right now, I can believe."


Nelal Hurcran 11-02-2009 12:40 AM

Should I feel this intimidated?
 
I don't believe that it will have anything to do with Rand.

When I think about WoT things that might resemble the Mistborn example, it always leads back to Mat. To me, he has the most things attached to him that are constant, yet easily overlooked. Plus, we know that Mat will have more of a story in ToM than Rand. Of course, that last is also true for Perrin.

Trutino 11-02-2009 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
I believe that RJ said Taim did NOT use Compulsion. Check the database.

Apologies. The whole "All they'll really want to do is serve and obey" thing seemed explicit at first glance but now I see RJ's blog entry on 1-20-2006 contradicts this. I've read the interviews but it's been a while. I'll go refresh on the blog entries and interviews. :o

Terez 11-02-2009 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelal Hurcran
Should I feel this intimidated?

I was told when I joined that this is what Theoryland strives for. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nelal
I don't believe that it will have anything to do with Rand.

I'm thinking the same, since Rand supposedly won't be in this book much - I want to concentrate on Mat for that reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trutino
Apologies.

None necessary. ;)


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