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4Alethinos 11-02-2009 02:38 PM

Just one aside about the lack of DFs among the Aiel. They had this interesting tendency to kill strangers. They were also outside what most thought were the main locations of power. They were not considered to be useful.

We see the Aes Sedai riddled with Black Ajah. The total numbers are staggering to me. Over 60 in the SAS and over 80 in the WT. With who knows how many who were not in either location. The AS with the Borderlander army, clearly being led by Demandred, are also going to be Black Ajah every one.

I doubt the Black status of either Sorilea or Bair. Shadar Haran being on the scene is enough to gain access. This does suggest that someone other than Elza who is close to Cadsuane is Black.

"Suspicions can be deadly. Bring on the Oath Rod."

Terez 11-02-2009 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Alethinos
Just one aside about the lack of DFs among the Aiel.

So far as I know, this is not actually true.

Lord Bloodpath 11-02-2009 04:40 PM

Thanks, 1Powerslave, for saying everything I was trying to, but more eloquently.

I thought I recognized one of the BA names on Verin's List as being someone (besides Elza) in Rand's orbit but have been too busy/lazy to check.

I don't see why Elza was compelled at all, is this idea talked about elsewhere? I was puzzled by that while reading and I sort of thought maybe Graendal did it, but SH's involvement makes me wonder why any other high level evil needs to be part of it (besides Semi.)

FelixPax 11-02-2009 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
That was my gut feeling as well, but this is a big discussion over at 13th depository right now, so I figured I'd bring it here. The Sorilea idea does have merits, despite her appearing to be on the right team. Bair....there's nothing to support it, but nothing to really contradict the idea, either.

Well, if Sorilea was a darkfriend why did she work with Verin Sedai in openly passing off a Sleeping potion which if used incorrectly can kill easily?

The point being Sorilea by that time, was unsure of Cadsuane's intentions towards Rand possibly, and gave Verin the option of killing Cadsuane if necessary by poisoning her.

Verin had gained a debt from Sorilea, in passing information how to shame the captured unsworn Aes Sedai from the White Tower...which Verin later used to investigate each one of them possible except for Katerine. Verin later complained of sleeping difficulties and headaches. That's one reason Verin get that sleeping potion, err poison from Sorilea. The question in my mind, is did Sorilea know the true intent of use for the sleeping potion? I think so, yes, she did know the real intention. How is this? Because there are far less poisonous substitutes available a Wise One like Sorilea could of gave instead of the one that almost killed Cadsuane by Verin's own hand.

Sorilea didn't fully trust Cadsuane at all, in KoD book, in fact Sorilea and Cadsuane's views were in conflict in Cairhien. Who's to be the next leader of Cairhien? This can be seen in the proxy fight between Sashalle and Samitsu; Sashalle is a Wise One & an Aes Sedai who supports Sorilea and the Dragon Reborn intentions; while Samitsu supports Cadsuane views of the situation.

Neither Sorilea nor Cadsuane are darkfriends, they just have conflicting views about how the Dragon Reborn and his role, his powers of control. Yet the only darkfriend here, was Verin Sedai who used both Cadsuane, Sorilea for her own goals.

FelixPax 11-02-2009 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bloodpath
I thought I recognized one of the BA names on Verin's List as being someone (besides Elza) in Rand's orbit but have been too busy/lazy to check.

All the Aes Sedai sent by Elaida to captured Rand in Cairhien, might be in fact Black Ajah. Some of the sisters were in Arad Doman and later Tear, as part of Rand's party of followers. Rand's in danger, as the Dark One has learned his followers have been manipulated by Compulsion...meaning Beldeine Nyram loyalty is uncertain, she might be a Black Ajah.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bloodpath
I don't see why Elza was compelled at all, is this idea talked about elsewhere? I was puzzled by that while reading and I sort of thought maybe Graendal did it, but SH's involvement makes me wonder why any other high level evil needs to be part of it (besides Semi.)

Verin Sedai used Compulsion on the captured Aes Sedai sent by Elaida to Cairhien (see TPoD,Prologue for that scene). That compulsion is why all those sister sworn to follow Rand, weeks, months after being captured. That compulsion put in place by Verin, might be able to be removed via the TAR for all we know??

Graendal did not put compulsion on Elza, that was Verin, in this case.

1Powerslave 11-02-2009 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
"Just one aside about the lack of DFs among the Aiel." --4A
So far as I know, this is not actually true.

It sounds familiar. Darkfriends being rare among the Aiel.

Terez 11-02-2009 06:23 PM

Well, maybe someone can find a quote then. :)

1Powerslave 11-02-2009 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Well, maybe someone can find a quote then. :)

Hey, I'm not the Quote Mistress. :)

Xelun 11-02-2009 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapter 21 of ACoS
“It is Jaichim Carridin who interests me,” Aviendha said, closing the book and setting it beside her. She refused to consider how odd she looked, sitting on the floor in a blue silk dress. “Among us, Shadowrunners are killed as soon as found, and not clan, sept, society or first-sister will raise a hand in protest. If Jaichim Carridin is a Shadowrunner, why does Tylin Mitsobar not kill him? Why do we not?”

I found this in reference to Darkfriends being rare among the Aiel. I can't remember if this is the quote that originally caused that impression for me, but it was the best I could find.

greatwolf 11-02-2009 08:54 PM

How do you quantify "rare" in a poulation of six million or more? Or among 500 channelers per clan?

But sorilea being DF seems a little farfetched. She wouldn't have lived so long if she was. Something about occupational hazards that I don't recall clearly.

Terez 11-02-2009 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Powerslave
Hey, I'm not the Quote Mistress. :)

I already looked, and didn't find one. I found Xelun's quote, but it doesn't even imply that Darkfriends are rare among the Aiel - just says they're killed as soon as they are discovered.

Lord Bloodpath 11-02-2009 10:20 PM

Felix- am i understanding that Verin compelled Elza to help Semi?

who buys that?

As to Aiel DF's, I could see instant death being a small deterrent to the ranks.

In the wetlands, DF's are feared, and there're a couple of ways one could turn capture into victory. But death is death, it doesn't really turn into anything else.

I don't remember anything directly indicating rareness, only the constant threat of death from everything making a culture less conducive to DF's.
I always figured the % was about equal with Borderlander DF's

nameless 11-02-2009 10:57 PM

If it weren't for Shaidar Haran's involvement I'd say you were on to something. As it is we know Fades can smell the One Power, so Cadsuane's convoluted traps probably led him right to the thing. Although there's no evidence yet that he can smell inverted weaves the same as regular weaves...

tworiverswoman 11-02-2009 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bloodpath
Felix- am i understanding that Verin compelled Elza to help Semi?

who buys that?

Hiya, LB -- it's nice to see you here again :)

And no - you've got it mixed up. After Dumai's Wells -- Rand's rescue from "the box" -- Verin spent quite a bit of time with the captured Aes Sedai after they'd been turned over to the Aiel. During her visits, she laid a home-made version of compulsion on each of them, which caused them all to swear fealty to Rand, eventually.

When Shadar Haran freed Semirage in Chapter 22 of TGS, she exited her cell to find Elza (one of the ones Verin treated that way) kneeling and swearing service to her. Elza then said "I am instructed to tell you that there is Compulsion in my mind you are to remove." When next you see her, she looks like someone has hit her in the back of the head with a board. But she's still sane and functional. (As much as a Darkfriend CAN be sane...)

As a minor grumbly aside -- how did the Forsaken actually know anything about the Sad Bracelets, anyway? They were made DURING THE BREAKING, when all of the Forsaken (except MAYBE Ishamael) were in Time Stop inside the Dark One's prison. And yet both Moggy and Semi seem to know all about them and how they are used.

Weird Harold 11-02-2009 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tworiverswoman
... yet both Moggy and Semi seem to know all about them and how they are used.

Moggy explained her knowledge to Nyneave; she spent the first months of her freedom researching what had happened in the last 3,000 years and discovered the history of them. Moggy's paranoia or deliberate deception skewed her explanation a bit when she implied they were to be used by one woman but could be used by two if they trusted each other.

FelixPax 11-02-2009 11:57 PM

Thanks for answering clearly Lord Bloodpath question, tworiverswoman. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tworiverswoman
As a minor grumbly aside -- how did the Forsaken actually know anything about the Sad Bracelets, anyway? They were made DURING THE BREAKING, when all of the Forsaken (except MAYBE Ishamael) were in Time Stop inside the Dark One's prison. And yet both Moggy and Semi seem to know all about them and how they are used.

Semirhage could of learned of them from one of the Black Ajah after being released from the Bore. Liandrin, Temaile, Eldrith Jhondar knew of them at the very least, maybe from Mesaana in the White Tower who was in her faction?

Yet Semirhage mentions (in tGS) past use of the Domination Bands but she leaves out when that was. :rolleyes:

I doubt Ishamael's original plans involved the use of the sad bracelets on Rand. Ishamael tried the bullying and information warfare methods first.

GonzoTheGreat 11-03-2009 05:20 AM

Moghedien suggested that she had found some scraps of paper which provided information on the DB. That may or may not have been the truth, but all things considered, she didn't have any reason to lie at the time. She was trying to distract Nynaeve, and telling lies during a battle is not a good idea when it may see you confused as a result of trying to keep your story straight.

Semirage is actually a lot easier still: she had been in control of the things for days, weeks or maybe even months. All it would have required for her was one male channeler (easily borrowed from the BT if you're a Chosen) and some time to experiment.

1Powerslave 11-03-2009 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Moghedien suggested that she had found some scraps of paper which provided information on the DB. That may or may not have been the truth, but all things considered, she didn't have any reason to lie at the time. She was trying to distract Nynaeve, and telling lies during a battle is not a good idea when it may see you confused as a result of trying to keep your story straight.

Semirage is actually a lot easier still: she had been in control of the things for days, weeks or maybe even months. All it would have required for her was one male channeler (easily borrowed from the BT if you're a Chosen) and some time to experiment.

Yeah, didn't Semirhage say that she had studied The Domination Band in this age, referring as well to her time with the Seanchan and her experience with the a'dam.

GonzoTheGreat 11-03-2009 10:48 AM

Come to think of it: Semirage could even have used a male channeler that she wouldn't have to return in one piece. All it would have taken is for Taim to hand a "runaway" over to her, and all he would need back eventually is the head so that he can hang it in his tree.

Anaiya Sedai 11-03-2009 10:56 AM

Terez, I'll have a look through the books some time (when Veloscaraptor gives me a break long enough) and will try to find you the quote that gave me that impression.


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