Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/index.php)
-   Book 12: The Gathering Storm (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Is ******* a Darkfriend? (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2523)

GonzoTheGreat 11-03-2009 11:06 AM

All right, back to the original topic: who betrayed whom. Specifically, of course: who betrayed Rand's trust in Cadsuane.

Another, less minor, aside: how did Elza know that she had been Compelled? It is of course possible that Verin had reported using this, but it seems to me that she was doing it to help the DR, as part of her "I do not want to be BA" campaign. So it seems unlikely that she would have told this.
Which raises the question: who was good enough at Delving to figure out that Elza was a victim of Compulsion?

Find that one, and I think that we're quite a bit closer to knowing who stole the Domination Band as well.

Davian93 11-03-2009 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
All right, back to the original topic: who betrayed whom. Specifically, of course: who betrayed Rand's trust in Cadsuane.

Another, less minor, aside: how did Elza know that she had been Compelled? It is of course possible that Verin had reported using this, but it seems to me that she was doing it to help the DR, as part of her "I do not want to be BA" campaign. So it seems unlikely that she would have told this.
Which raises the question: who was good enough at Delving to figure out that Elza was a victim of Compulsion?

Find that one, and I think that we're quite a bit closer to knowing who stole the Domination Band as well.

Well OBVIOUSLY, Shaidar Haran told Elza to tell Semi about the compulsion. He likely delved her himself. I thought that was a given.

GonzoTheGreat 11-03-2009 11:41 AM

I am not at all sure that SH did that. Might be, of course, but if he could do that, then why didn't he simply remove the problem too?

According to Verin, noticing the Compulsion would take a lot of skill. Removing it probably did not take all that much more skill, only the knowledge of how to do it in the first place. Which LTT had (and gave to Nynaeve), and Semirage undoubtedly knew it too. I think that SH also knew this.
So, if he had been able to detect it, then he would have removed the Compulsion. The fact that someone could detect it but could not remove it strongly suggests a Third Ager to me. One skilled at Healing, of course.

lurk 11-03-2009 11:43 AM

IIRC Moggy tells the wondergirls how the sad bracelets work. She even tells that the women will go mad while trying to control a man channeling tainted saidin.

That must have been in Tanchico I think...

Davian93 11-03-2009 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
I am not at all sure that SH did that. Might be, of course, but if he could do that, then why didn't he simply remove the problem too?

According to Verin, noticing the Compulsion would take a lot of skill. Removing it probably did not take all that much more skill, only the knowledge of how to do it in the first place. Which LTT had (and gave to Nynaeve), and Semirage undoubtedly knew it too. I think that SH also knew this.
So, if he had been able to detect it, then he would have removed the Compulsion. The fact that someone could detect it but could not remove it strongly suggests a Third Ager to me. One skilled at Healing, of course.

Maybe Shaidar Haran realized that Semi would be better at removing it as she would be using Saidar to remove a saidar compulsion web. Touching Elza with the TP might kill her.

Crispin's Crispian 11-03-2009 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xelun
I found this in reference to Darkfriends being rare among the Aiel. I can't remember if this is the quote that originally caused that impression for me, but it was the best I could find.

Apparently Black Ajah would be executed too, if found, and there were plenty of those.

Aiel are already good at hiding.

Crispin's Crispian 11-03-2009 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93
Maybe Shaidar Haran realized that Semi would be better at removing it as she would be using Saidar to remove a saidar compulsion web. Touching Elza with the TP might kill her.

This is what I think happened. It's tough, because Shaidar Haran seems to have abilities above and beyond anything else we've seen, but I would be surprised if he couldn't effectively remove saidar-Compulsion himself.

Belazamon 11-03-2009 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
This is what I think happened. It's tough, because Shaidar Haran seems to have abilities above and beyond anything else we've seen, but I would be surprised if he couldn't effectively remove saidar-Compulsion himself.

More to the point, SH's form of "removing" the Compulsion would be a brute-force approach. And as we've been told several times, usually in Graendal-centric storylines, doing it that way is most likely to leave the person a vegetable.

Davian93 11-03-2009 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon
More to the point, SH's form of "removing" the Compulsion would be a brute-force approach. And as we've been told several times, usually in Graendal-centric storylines, doing it that way is most likely to leave the person a vegetable.

Exactly my thoughts on the matter.

Calharn 11-04-2009 02:05 AM

So if I understand most of the posts it is a fair statement to say there is strong support for SH being the mastermind of the incident. Support as in opinion.... not proof..

I myself lean towards SH being behind it, with Semi removing the compulsion.

But is there any evidence of SH having a hand in this? besides our faith in Cadsuane's abilities to ward and our minimal knowledge of SH's powers. I've looked myself and can't find anything that points to SH or anyone else for that matter.... Especially not Bair or Sorilea...

tworiverswoman 11-04-2009 09:25 PM

Well... given that SH is the one that came to Semi in her cell, there's no question that he "had a hand in this." I have no real problem accepting that he was in command from start to finish.

And I quite agree with Davian and SDog/Crispy -- SH is the MOST likely one to have spotted the Compulsion, and instructed Elza to tell Semi to 'get rid of it.' I have no idea if he could have done it himself or not, but I suspect he's too important to mess about with mere details like that. Or too ham-fisted. I don't know if The Dark One is CAPABLE of a "delicate" touch. It would be like someone with 10-inch razor-sharp talons trying to turn a page without tearing it. POSSIBLE, but more trouble than it's worth.

We know absolutely nothing about SH's powers, other than the few things we've seen. He can shield channellers without them being able to feel the shield, he can use the Myrrddrahl trick of translocation via shadow, he has a nasty sense of humor, he can rape, and he can travel the path to the lava pool without getting his head scratched.

Being able to sense the sad bracelets through Cadsuane's concealment? I have no difficulty with this.

GonzoTheGreat 11-05-2009 05:19 AM

Would SH have left Cadsuane/Rand in control of the CK, though?

Davian93 11-05-2009 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat
Would SH have left Cadsuane/Rand in control of the CK, though?

Probably, its not really a threat to him...besides he WANTS Rand to use large amounts of balefire and that is the best way to do it. He basically got the Dragon all liquored up and then handed him a loaded pistol.

Terez 07-05-2010 05:22 PM

I posted a theory about this on the home page. Would be nice if some of you went over there to discuss it (to make Tam happy of course). There are some important points in the comments that you might want to read too.

Also, in reference to the last few comments on this thread (which I missed), Brandon implies that Shaidar Haran only has power over Darkfriends (which explains why we never see him around Lightfriends). He most likely couldn't have determined the location of the Domination Band without help, if for no other reason than that it was in Cadsuane's room, and she is a Lightfriend.

nameless 07-05-2010 07:57 PM

His superpowers might not work in Cadsuane's room but his regular Fade powers probably did and every Fade can smell the One Power, which the Domination Band was smothered with at the time. There's no evidence either way to say whether or not they can still smell inverted weaves, though.

Terez 07-05-2010 08:28 PM

Big difference between smelling the Power and knowing what's under it.

Neilbert 07-06-2010 02:47 AM

Who cares though? A little skulking around, a little from Semirhage, a little from Elza, not hard to figure out what's in the box.

I don't think there are too many one power locked boxes around. Shaidar Haran doesn't exactly have to guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
He most likely couldn't have determined the location of the Domination Band without help, if for no other reason than that it was in Cadsuane's room, and she is a Lightfriend.

He's a vampire now?

GonzoTheGreat 07-06-2010 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 103170)
He's a vampire now?

Just like Count Dracula, he does have a way with the ladies, doesn't he?

Davian93 07-06-2010 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 70153)
Yes, that's the strangest part about it. And it was Sorilea that asked, and it was clear from the scene that she was calling in her debt for teaching Cadsuane. A very strange thing to call it in for.

That being said, it's really hard to see her as a Darkfriend.

Really? I could see it. Someone close to Rand (not named Elza) has to be one. Otherwise, this story is far to close to Eddings.

Terez 07-06-2010 02:44 PM

It was hard to see at first, but now I'm convinced. That quote was from last year. :p And it had more to do with her personality than any idea about how many unrevealed Darkfriends there should be around Rand.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:54 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.