Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/index.php)
-   Book 12: The Gathering Storm (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Is ******* a Darkfriend? (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2523)

FelixPax 07-16-2010 06:43 AM

Who are near the Dragon Reborn? Beldeine, Karldin, Kiruna
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 103881)
:D

Those spiders look hungry Felix, be sure you're seated next to the right one. :p

Got to say, some of the Jumping Spider images are pretty darn cute! Well, for Spiders that is ^^

Luckily for us humans, Jumping Spiders aren't looking to eat people. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 103881)
Karldin and Beldeine have been off my radar. Why would they be significant?:)

They are each near the Dragon Reborn now, and that by itself is significant. (KoD, Ch.27; TGS,Ch48)


Recall that Mesaana claimed to have at least one woman spy on scene, when Rand had this hand blown off by Semirhage?

Quote:

"She disobeyed," Moridin said. "She was not to try to kill al'Thor."

"She didn't intend to," Mesaana said hastily. "Our woman there thinks that the bolt of Fire was a reaction of surprise, not an intention to kill"

The Gathering Storm, Prologue - Graendal point of view
Sounds as if "our woman" implies that this spy is both Mesaana & Demandred plant.


I guess the pro-Sorilea darkfriend camp, believes Sorilea is the Mesaana's spy? :confused:

That's bizarre as Sorilea was one of the leaders to "free" a kidnapped Rand al'Thor from Mesaana's and Demandred hands previously (LoC & ACOS). Sorilea even fought Sammael's pawn of the Shiado, at Dumai Wells.


Instead I suspect that Beldeine, Kardlin and Kiruna Nachiman are all on the Shadow's side, near Rand al'Thor now.


Has anyone else ever thought about Verin's Letter to Rand about Black Sisters not following an Oath (KoD,Chapter "Golden Crane")? That suggestions Verin knows of more than one Black Ajah Sister with Rand in Tear, then.


Do you really want all the evidence listed here, why these three characters are most likely on the Shadow's side, within this thread?

I just want an "okay" or a push to "a new thread", before everyone sees a text wall created...about Beldeine, Karldin, Kiruna Nachiman. Which do you all prefer?

(Still working on Valan Luca, Lanfear essays...too.)

GonzoTheGreat 07-16-2010 07:27 AM

The reason why Beldeine, Karldin and Kiruna aren't debated in this case is that we do not have any reason to assume that they knew where the E've was kept, nor that they saw how it was guarded.

Cadsuane showed it to Sorilea and Bair. Bair can't channel, so she would not have noticed anything about the defenses that Cadsuane had set up. Which leaves a list containing one single suspect. Would you bother to hazard a guess who that suspect is?

One Armed Gimp 07-16-2010 09:50 AM

Eh, I think people to easily discount the possibility of SH's abilities to defeat the ward, most likely using Elza. If thats the case, the weave may not need to have been repeated and Bair could be a suspect.

Terez 07-16-2010 09:59 AM

No one has come up with a good explanation for how that was supposed to be done.

1. Shaidar Haran probably can't teach weaves to anyone.

2. If Shaidar Haran could teach weaves to someone, it would be the True Power, and that is restricted to Moridin's use alone now. I find it to be hard to believe they'd let Elza use it. It is a high privilege, and Darkfriends take that sort of thing very seriously.

3. If breaking a ward was as simple as that, then the Forsaken would not have been so sure they could do nothing about Callandor (in the floor of the Stone, with Rand's wards) and the toys in the Great Holding (warded by both Rand and Moiraine). If you want to disarm a ward trap, you have to know the weaves. Cadsuane invented this one herself; I think that was mentioned specifically so that we would know that it wasn't a simple matter of 'oh, I know this ward; the weave to disarm it is this.'

One Armed Gimp 07-16-2010 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 103919)
No one has come up with a good explanation for how that was supposed to be done.

No one would have been able to provide an explanation for why they thought SH could cut some one off from the True Source prior to his doing it. Shaidar Haran is a mystery, his abilities and limits are for the most part unknown. We have no evidence to suggest that he can or can not in some way defeat a ward, dissolve a weave, or what have you in order to gain access to the E've other than we have not seen him do it.

I can not explain how he is able to do it, but I think that he was. There is not enough evidence to convict Sorilea prior to this incident. With the incident we have two options to start:

1. SH was able to get the bracelets through powers of his own.
2. SH was not able to and needed a channeler to undo the wards and then get the bracelets.

In order to support the second option either Sorilea is a DF or some one was able to find/detect/already knew where the E've was and defeat the ward. Sorilea being a DF is more likely there.

I think SH being able to do it on his own is the more likely option even though the only real explanation one can give is "just 'cause".

That still leaves open either Sorilea or Bair possibly being a DF. Of those two, I leans towards Bair.

Marie Curie 7 07-16-2010 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp (Post 103927)
No one would have been able to provide an explanation for why they thought SH could cut some one off from the True Source prior to his doing it. Shaidar Haran is a mystery, his abilities and limits are for the most part unknown. We have no evidence to suggest that he can or can not in some way defeat a ward, dissolve a weave, or what have you in order to gain access to the E've other than we have not seen him do it.

I can not explain how he is able to do it, but I think that he was. There is not enough evidence to convict Sorilea prior to this incident. With the incident we have two options to start:

1. SH was able to get the bracelets through powers of his own.
2. SH was not able to and needed a channeler to undo the wards and then get the bracelets.

In order to support the second option either Sorilea is a DF or some one was able to find/detect/already knew where the E've was and defeat the ward. Sorilea being a DF is more likely there.

I think SH being able to do it on his own is the more likely option even though the only real explanation one can give is "just 'cause".

That still leaves open either Sorilea or Bair possibly being a DF. Of those two, I leans towards Bair.

Shaidar Haran was not able to get the domination band on his own. His powers have many limitations - Brandon has made that clear in a few signing reports.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Joseph-Beth Booksellers, Lexington, KY 10 November 2009 - Stormleader Team reporting

Brandon hinted at some severe limitations on Shaidar Haran to affect the physical world. He says that a lot of actions that people assume to be those of Shaidar Haran in the book in one particular scene were physically carried out by Elza. He further indicated that Shadar Haran would have been incapable of physically placing the collar himself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Scottsdale Public Library, Phoenix Arizona 16 November 2009 - kcf reporting

Q: You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?
A: Shaidar Haran needs a minion to do most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done.

Brandon also explicitly stated that it was Elza who removed the ward on Cadsuane's box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

Also, there were some comments some ways back about how Elza knew she had been compelled. Shaidar Haran told her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Was the Compulsion which Elza told Semirhage about, Verin's work from after Dumai's Wells, and was it Shaidar Haran who told her about it and to ask Semirhage to remove it?
A. Yes.


Sukoto 07-16-2010 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 103907)
Recall that Mesaana claimed to have at least one woman spy on scene, when Rand had this hand blown off by Semirhage?

Sounds as if "our woman" implies that this spy is both Mesaana & Demandred plant.

I guess the pro-Sorilea darkfriend camp, believes Sorilea is the Mesaana's spy?

If there was a woman DF in Rand's camp taking orders from Demandred and Mesaana, it is most likely she is Aes Sedai and not Aiel. There is no evidence that I have seen of Mesaana or Demandred having dealings among the Aiel, but plenty of evidence that they have dealings with the Black Ajah. There is also another Black sister bound to Rand besides Elza that we know of. I don't recall if either was part of the group that went to meet the Seanchan, but we know that Elza usually stayed close to Rand. My guess is that Elza is the "our woman" that Mesaana was talking about.

There is no reason to suspect Beldeine, Karldin AND Kiruna. All three? Seriously, I doubt any of them are DFs. Taim likes to keep the Asha'man DFs close to him, and neither Beldeine nor Kiruna was on Verin's list.

Neilbert 07-17-2010 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 (Post 103932)
Shaidar Haran was not able to get the domination band on his own. His powers have many limitations - Brandon has made that clear in a few signing reports.

There are also reports that indicate that swearing to the Dark One removes certain "protections", which may have something to do with Shaidar Haran's control over darkfriends.

One Armed Gimp 07-19-2010 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 (Post 103932)
Shaidar Haran was not able to get the domination band on his own. His powers have many limitations - Brandon has made that clear in a few signing reports.

...

Brandon also explicitly stated that it was Elza who removed the ward on Cadsuane's box....

I'm not suggesting that SH did not need/use Elza, merely suggesting that he may have the ability to defeat the ward without needing to know the weave.

Yes, he has limitations, some even stated in the books, but we do not know what all those limitations are. We can not discount the possibility of SH being able to use Elza to get the bracelets with out the need for someone to show her the flows simply because we have not seen him do something like that before.

Terez 07-19-2010 09:27 AM

No one has discounted any possibilities, but the evidence is stacked against Shaidar Haran being able to defeat those wards, and the evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea having provided the weaves. You can believe whatever you like about it, and no one cares really.

Neilbert 07-19-2010 10:06 AM

Well, except for this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

And the fact that the Dark One is described as being non human and the ur-control freak. Even if he was able to teach his followers really sweet super rare weaves he likely wouldn't without a very direct and specific reason in a situation in which he was in full control. Elza fits that one to a T.

GonzoTheGreat 07-19-2010 10:10 AM

Actually, I do not think that it is correct to call the DO a control freak. His Forsaken definitely are, but I don't think he himself is. He wants results, but whatever else his minions get up to doesn't bother him at all.

Neilbert 07-19-2010 03:26 PM

I'm not the person who is calling the Dark One the ur-control freak, that bit came from RJ. I didn't even know what the prefix ur meant until I saw it in an RJ quote and looked it up.

Since you are so sweet:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Robert Jordan Answers: It is a matter of the Dark One consciously acting, though interactions between the One Power and him, the source of the True Power, can be unpredictable. The Dark One is not pleasant. He is also highly distrustful. He…dislikes…things that happen outside his control or not at his order. Call him the ur-control freak. Combine these two facts, and anyone channeling in the Pit of Doom without permission can expect swift punishment on the assumption that failure to ask permission means you intend to do something he won't like. It isn't that he believes anyone can harm him, just that he is in charge, and your failure to ask permission, your presumed intention to do something he wouldn't like, means that your faithfulness quotient has just suffered a severe downturn. Myself, I'd sell you short in a skinny minute.


GonzoTheGreat 07-19-2010 03:28 PM

What does RJ know? He also thought that the question of what hermaphrodites would channel was strange.

IamChosen 07-25-2010 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 104132)
What does RJ know? He also thought that the question of what hermaphrodites would channel was strange.

LOL

Did he answer it?

GonzoTheGreat 07-26-2010 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamChosen (Post 104545)
LOL

Did he answer it?

No, I think he hadn't thought it through well enough.
Quote:

Someone actually asked Jordan whether a hermaphrodite would channel saidin or saidar. Jordan was...non-plussed. "A hermaphrodite?! I dunno. I'd have to sit down and figure that out." He shot the guy a funny look as he walked away, then remarked to the next group of people in line that he put that in the same category as the person who wrote to ask him what Donald Duck would channel.
At first glance, he might have had a point. But as soon as you sit down and do the math, it is intuitively obvious to the most casual mathematician that in the AOL people must have known the answer.

Right now, we have somewhere between 6 and 7 billion people. Assume that the population in the AOL was similar. Right now, about one in a million people are hermaphrodites, and there isn't any reason that I know of to think it would be different in the AOL. That means that there are something like six to seven thousand hermaphrodites alive at any given moment. If two to three percent of them can channel (as was the ordinary proportion), then that would mean something like 100-200 channeling hermaphrodites. More than enough to figure out some rules, I would say, with at most three options (saidin, saidar or both). The only other option is that they couldn't channel at all, which also would have shown up quite clearly in the statistics.

IamChosen 07-26-2010 12:32 PM

LOL

I wonder if he figured it out and left it in the notes. :)

Anyway, everyone knows that Donald would channel the True Power, the evil bastard.

nameless 07-26-2010 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 104571)
No, I think he hadn't thought it through well enough.
At first glance, he might have had a point. But as soon as you sit down and do the math, it is intuitively obvious to the most casual mathematician that in the AOL people must have known the answer.

Right now, we have somewhere between 6 and 7 billion people. Assume that the population in the AOL was similar. Right now, about one in a million people are hermaphrodites, and there isn't any reason that I know of to think it would be different in the AOL. That means that there are something like six to seven thousand hermaphrodites alive at any given moment. If two to three percent of them can channel (as was the ordinary proportion), then that would mean something like 100-200 channeling hermaphrodites. More than enough to figure out some rules, I would say, with at most three options (saidin, saidar or both). The only other option is that they couldn't channel at all, which also would have shown up quite clearly in the statistics.

One in a million seems really low... Are you counting testicularly feminized males as hemaphrodites? Cause that happens to one in 20,000 or so : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androge...ivity_syndrome

I'd guess saidar is the default unless the person in question was exposed to high testosterone levels in utero and again at the onset of puberty.

Terez 07-27-2010 12:00 AM

Well, channeling is both genetic and tied to the soul, so perhaps hermaphroditic bodies do not have the channeling component.

Ieyasu 07-27-2010 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104095)
No one has discounted any possibilities, but the evidence is stacked against Shaidar Haran being able to defeat those wards, and the evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea having provided the weaves. You can believe whatever you like about it, and no one cares really.

I am curious about this so-called 'evidence' you feel is stacked against Shaidar Haran, and in favor of Sorilea... especially considering this quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brandon Sanderson
Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

I havent seen you reply to that yet, Terez. Kinda cuts a big hole in the above your above paragraph doesnt it?


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:34 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.