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GonzoTheGreat 07-27-2010 11:11 AM

Well, not if it had been Sorilea who gave the knowledge of those weaves, either directly to Elza or indirectly via SH.

greatwolf 07-27-2010 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 104611)
I'd guess saidar is the default unless the person in question was exposed to high testosterone levels in utero and again at the onset of puberty.


Does Arangar have high levels of testorone now? If he's castrated will he begin channeling saidar? I don't think so. I think it comes with the soul irrespective of hormones. A mixed gender person likely will still have a male soul or female rather than both or mixed. And therefore will channel whichever the soul had. As with Arangar though, that wouldn't shape body chemistry.

IamChosen 07-27-2010 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104669)
I havent seen you reply to that yet, Terez. Kinda cuts a big hole in the above your above paragraph doesnt it?

That quote is purposely vague.

It does not say Shaidar Haran gave Elza the knowledge, or any knowledge at all. It just says she was given knowledge and made into SH's tool. :)

If you want something more specific, try asking Brandon Sanderson "Did Shaidar Haran and Elza learn Cadsuane's wards by themselves, or was there a third person involved?"

But either way, I'm pretty sure he'll RAFO it. :)

Terez 07-27-2010 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104669)
I am curious about this so-called 'evidence' you feel is stacked against Shaidar Haran, and in favor of Sorilea... especially considering this quote:



I havent seen you reply to that yet, Terez. Kinda cuts a big hole in the above your above paragraph doesnt it?

No, it does not. Have you actually read my theory on the home page? Evidently not. First off, there's another Brandon quote that says Shaidar Haran couldn't physically do it himself, etc. Second, Brandon does NOT say that Shaidar Haran taught Elza weaves.

Ieyasu 07-27-2010 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamChosen (Post 104690)
That quote is purposely vague.

It does not say Shaidar Haran gave Elza the knowledge, or any knowledge at all. It just says she was given knowledge and made into SH's tool. :)

lol vague? lol... not really.. she was given knowledge of several rarely known weaves in addition to being made into a tool of SH in other ways... its pretty black and white to me. not only was SH the source of those 'rarely known' weaves she was given, he also made use of her as a tool in several other ways as well...

I suppose you could argue as gonzo is in saying perhaps Sorilea provided the intel to SH about Cadsuane's wards who in turn provided Elza with rare weaves to defeat such AND made her his bitch in other ways... which would be far more plausible to me, because I simply do not believe the Aiel are in possession of any 'rarely known weaves'

im still waiting to see if terez will back up her claims that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
No one has discounted any possibilities, but the evidence is stacked against Shaidar Haran being able to defeat those wards, and the evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea having provided the weaves. You can believe whatever you like about it, and no one cares really.

I fail to see how any evidence is stacked in favor of Sorilea providing the weaves when the author flat out states Elza did the deed after having been given 'rarely known weaves' AND being made into Shaidar Haran's tool.

Have we seen any other 'rarely known weaves' come from the Aiel? What evidence is there that the Aiel have any ability to defeat innovative and non-standard alarm weaves? At Sorilea's powerlevel, why would we believe she is in possession of any rarely known weaves at all or would be able to make use of them is she was? Are we going to suddenly find out 11 books deep that the Aiel wiseones have been holding out and keeping secret one power weaves all along? cmon get real.

The evidence for Sorilea is pretty circumstancial. She asked to see the items. She had opportunity. So did every other wise-one that was with her at the time. As well as all the Aes Sedai who attend Cadsuane for several books. Some of which we now know are black. There are many potential sources for intel about Cadsuane's wards to have made it to Shaidar Haran, Sorilea is but one of many suspects.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terez
No, it does not. Have you actually read my theory on the home page? Evidently not.

No, I have not read your theory... however i read the idea's you posted from the 13th depository and posted on the main site.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
This is not my theory


Sorry, but stringing up a bunch of highly circumstancial things does not in any way stack up evidence... i mean seriously... have you looked at the things you posted as evidence?

Sorilea is a Darkfriend because she wants the wiseones to fight using the power in battle? really? You yourself admitted it wasnt evidence on the mainpage... now you want to say it is on this forum? make up your mind please...

Sorilea is a darkfriend because she is smug when Rand turns over captive Aes Sedai to the Aiel wise-ones? seriously? you do recall that the wise-ones, collectively, have no respect for Aes Sedai at all, right?

Sorilea is a darkfriend because she smiles when min says those honorless aes sedai will serve rand... after being re-trained by aiel wiseones? i suppose simple pride in retraining some sloppy children into useful adults is 'of the dark' now... i mean, we havent seen the wise-ones (including Sorilea) proud of progressing students every before right? (egwene)

Every single piece of so-called 'evidence' you have is merely subjective circumstantial bullshit. None of this is evidence at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
First off, there's another Brandon quote that says Shaidar Haran couldn't physically do it himself, etc. Second, Brandon does NOT say that Shaidar Haran taught Elza weaves.

[/quote]

No he doesnt in plain english say "shaidar haran gave Elza rarely known weaves" he does say, however, that she was given rarely known weaves AND made into a tool by shaidar haran.

Why would the author be sure to link Elza and Shaidar Haran and the rarely known weaves in the same sentence if they came from another source?

It is highly implied from that quote that shaidar haran gave her knowledge of rarely known weaves IN ADDITION to making her his tool in several ways... none of which was pleasant for her.

The quote is transcribed and the punctution matters. A missed comma changes that entire sentence.

As for the more detailed quote on Shaidar Haran having more access to ppl who have sworn to him/the shadow/whatever, and needing to work thru them? I do not have a problem with him using whatever access he has to them to be able to provide Elza with knowledge of rarely known weaves. I do have a problem with sudden, magical, 'rarely known' weaves popping up in the possession of a basically worthless channeler who cant even use them because she is so weak. I have a problem with 'rarely known weaves' popping up in the Aiel culture at all...

All this being said, I do agree with you that Sorilea is a darkfriend, but in no way, shape, or form, is there any evidence stacked towards her or against Shaidar Haran. The biggest piece of evidence is the lack of POV scenes from her imo.

btw, search auger some time, youll see alot of ppl, both good and bad, have been described as having auger eyes.

Kimon 07-27-2010 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104718)
btw, search auger some time, youll see alot of ppl, both good and bad, have been described as having auger eyes.

Providing the actual examples of such (good guys and gals described thus, besides Sorilea obviously) would be helpful, as the word, due to its obvious negative conotations, seems to have been used by RJ almost as a stock descripter to demarcate baddies.

Terez 07-27-2010 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104718)
I fail to see

That is not surprising. There is a relevant thread on Non. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
Have we seen any other 'rarely known weaves' come from the Aiel?

Are you even freaking paying the slightest bit of attention?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
The evidence for Sorilea is pretty circumstancial. She asked to see the items. She had opportunity. So did every other wise-one that was with her at the time.

Most importantly, SHE SAW CADSUANE DISARM THE TRAP. The only other Wise One with her was Bair, who CANNOT CHANNEL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
As well as all the Aes Sedai who attend Cadsuane for several books. Some of which we now know are black. There are many potential sources for intel about Cadsuane's wards to have made it to Shaidar Haran, Sorilea is but one of many suspects.

What makes you think that she has ever opened the box in front of anyone before?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
No, I have not read your theory... however i read the idea's you posted from the 13th depository and posted on the main site.

If you had actually read it, you might have saved yourself from looking like a total dumbass, but it's too late now. The theory starts out with circumstantial evidence, but the evidence gets stronger and stronger as the series goes on, and I went chronologically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
Why would the author be sure to link Elza and Shaidar Haran and the rarely known weaves in the same sentence if they came from another source?

Because Shaidar Haran is the one that arranged the entire thing. :rolleyes: That does not mean that he can teach someone weaves. If he knew how to disarm wards, then the Forsaken could have gotten into the Holding at the Stone or the stash in Cairhien or the stashes of 'angreal in the Tower a long time ago. Chances are, Shaidar Haran can't teach anyone weaves at all, and that the information came rather from Sorilea, who is probably the only female channeler that has ever observed Cadsuane disarming the traps THAT SHE INVENTED HERSELF on the box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
I do agree with you that Sorilea is a darkfriend

No one cares.

IamChosen 07-28-2010 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104718)
lol vague? lol... not really.. she was given knowledge of several rarely known weaves in addition to being made into a tool of SH in other ways... its pretty black and white to me. not only was SH the source of those 'rarely known' weaves she was given, he also made use of her as a tool in several other ways as well...

Perhaps that's just me, but I look at the authors' words as I would look at an Aes Sedai's. They will obviously not lie, but if they are protecting something, they may not say what we think they said. :)

Of course, if he was truly pinned down, he could have RAFOed it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104718)
I have a problem with 'rarely known weaves' popping up in the Aiel culture at all...

Let's see, off the top of my head:

- adept dreamwalkers (not a weave, but still something Aes Sedai are not)
- adept at unraveling weaves, Modidin himself noting how remarkable it was
- invented the sort of bonding that occurs in the First Sisters/Brothers cerimony

I think you are selling the Aiel short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 104721)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104718)
btw, search auger some time, youll see alot of ppl, both good and bad, have been described as having auger eyes.

Providing the actual examples of such (good guys and gals described thus, besides Sorilea obviously) would be helpful, as the word, due to its obvious negative conotations, seems to have been used by RJ almost as a stock descripter to demarcate baddies.

Therava is described as having auger eyes. Granted, she is not a good person per se, but she's not a darkfriend either.

Ieyasu 07-28-2010 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamChosen (Post 104731)
Perhaps that's just me, but I look at the authors' words as I would look at an Aes Sedai's. They will obviously not lie, but if they are protecting something, they may not say what we think they said. :)

Of course, if he was truly pinned down, he could have RAFOed it...

Keep in mind, the author didnt type that quote. He said the answer in a book tour interview and it was transcribed. As I pointed out, the punctuation comes from the transcriber.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamChosen
Let's see, off the top of my head:

- adept dreamwalkers (not a weave, but still something Aes Sedai are not)
- adept at inverting weaves, Modidin himself noting how remarkable it was
- invented the sort of bonding that occurs in the First Sisters/Brothers cerimony

I think you are selling the Aiel short.

If by inverting weaves, you mean unraveling weaves? Then yes, they do something all channelers, including the ones from the AOL, believed impossible. But again, unraveling a weave isnt something... hrm actually, it is something 'rarely known' outside of the Aiel. As Aviendha said, they actually practice doing so... so Elza could have been taught to unravel weaves i suppose...

Perhaps I am selling the Aiel short.
Quote:

Originally Posted by kimon
Providing the actual examples of such (good guys and gals described thus, besides Sorilea obviously) would be helpful, as the word, due to its obvious negative conotations, seems to have been used by RJ almost as a stock descripter to demarcate baddies.

try searching, as I suggested :)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104724)
That is not surprising. There is a relevant thread on Non. ;)


Are you even freaking paying the slightest bit of attention?


Most importantly, SHE SAW CADSUANE DISARM THE TRAP. The only other Wise One with her was Bair, who CANNOT CHANNEL.

Which relevant thread would that be?

Knowing exactly what her weave does, grabs ppl in the room with air, makes noise and flashes lights... doesnt take many weaves to bypass the trap all together, let alone 'rarely known weaves'... Her trap can be disabled and rendered effective with mundane weaves as is, for something 'rarely known' I just dont see it coming from an Aiel source... would teaching someone to unweave something be considered 'rarely known weaves'?

Quote:

Originally Posted by terez
What makes you think that she has ever opened the box in front of anyone before?

What makes you think she hasnt? Would be pretty suspicious to have a worn looking document box that she never ever touches but leaves out in plain sight all the time, dontcha think?

Quote:

Originally Posted by terez
If you had actually read it, you might have saved yourself from looking like a total dumbass, but it's too late now. The theory starts out with circumstantial evidence, but the evidence gets stronger and stronger as the series goes on, and I went chronologically.

No, the theory starts out with circumstantial opinion and continues to link more and more circumstantial interpretations of subjective smiles and smug looks. None of this at all is evidence. All of it is your opinion of what this look means here, or that smile means there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by terez
Because Shaidar Haran is the one that arranged the entire thing. :rolleyes: That does not mean that he can teach someone weaves. If he knew how to disarm wards, then the Forsaken could have gotten into the Holding at the Stone or the stash in Cairhien or the stashes of 'angreal in the Tower a long time ago. Chances are, Shaidar Haran can't teach anyone weaves at all, and that the information came rather from Sorilea, who is probably the only female channeler that has ever observed Cadsuane disarming the traps THAT SHE INVENTED HERSELF on the box.

You are assuming the 'rarely known weaves' would be 4th age weaves, I am not. And while they could be, I doubt it. Then again, Nyn could have disarmed Cadsuane's traps with her B&E weaves she used to storm the gaoler's house... There is a world of difference between being able to bypass Cadsuane's little alarm noise and light maker and being able to eliminate Rand's deadly weaves. I am perfectly comfortable with some rarely known AOL weaves that dampen noise or light allowing Elza to spring the trap which does nothing lethal anyway... No need to invent some hidden Aiel trap bypassing 'rarely known' weaves. Plural. Who cares if she invented the weave or not, a weave that will drain the power from a tied off weave of X size would work. So would merely encasing the room in a sound-proof opaque box of air then touching the box... completely defeats her 'trap'
Its not even a trap per se, its an alarm.

As for Shaidar Haran teaching her? I dont know what all powers he has over darkfriends. As you pointed out, he has more power over darkfriends than others, though I think you give him too much in the way of limits in saying he cant even enter the room of a lightfriend... the dude was in the freaking tower... As we have seen, he is capable of blocking the ability to channel the power seemingly at will. We saw him effectively eliminate all of Messanna's disguise weaves, did that come from cutting her off the way he does or did that happen because he can somehow absorb weaves? Would she have been actively maintaining those weaves or would they have been tied off? In the case of her fancy disguise im sure she held that weave, but in the case of her reg day to day disguise, id bet she would tie that off rather than actively maintain it every moment of every day... How exactly does he cut off ppl from the power anyway? is he merely suppressing the ability? blocking it? putting a shield of some sort between the channeler and the source? can he do so with non-darkfriends? Point is we dont know how he effects channeling anyway, so I dont have a problem with him being able to use someone elses power, he can already stop them from channeling both while they are touching the source and without touching it. Could be as simple as him having a'dam like control over darkfriend channelers... I tend to think of some sort of power-draining AOL weave would be effective and fit the 'rarely known' bill better than Sorilea showing Elza how to disarm it... If thats all it was, then why was Elza provided any weaves at all? Unless the weaves were whatever incapacitated the Aes Sedai? I tend to think Shaidar Haran had a hand in that as well. Will be interesting to see what they have to say next book...

Quote:

Originally Posted by terez
No one cares.

obviously, you do :rolleyes:

Terez 07-28-2010 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104733)
Knowing exactly what her weave does, grabs ppl in the room with air, makes noise and flashes lights... doesnt take many weaves to bypass the trap all together, let alone 'rarely known weaves'...

If it was that easy to get past a ward, then wards would be useless, and you don't know enough about wards to say that Rand's are any better than Cadsuane's, or Moiraine's. There is zero evidence in the series to suggest that it's that easy to get past a ward, and tons of evidence against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
What makes you think she hasnt?

This is irrelevant. We have no evidence that she has ever shown the disarming weave to anyone else, which is my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu
obviously, you do :rolleyes:

No, I don't.

Neilbert 07-28-2010 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104724)
Because Shaidar Haran is the one that arranged the entire thing. :rolleyes: That does not mean that he can teach someone weaves. If he knew how to disarm wards, then the Forsaken could have gotten into the Holding at the Stone or the stash in Cairhien or the stashes of 'angreal in the Tower a long time ago.

I've really already addressed this, and it isn't in keeping with the Dark One's nature at all to open a channeling school for aspiring darkfriends. The explanation for why this hasn't happened could easily be that the Dark One just didn't feel like it. In fact, that is a very likely explanation. He is not human, and thinking of him in human terms is not going to work all that well.

Heck, it's possible Elza disarmed Cadsuane's trap with the True Power.

IamChosen 07-29-2010 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104733)
Keep in mind, the author didnt type that quote. He said the answer in a book tour interview and it was transcribed. As I pointed out, the punctuation comes from the transcriber.

Good point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104733)
If by inverting weaves, you mean unraveling weaves? Then yes, they do something all channelers, including the ones from the AOL, believed impossible. But again, unraveling a weave isnt something... hrm actually, it is something 'rarely known' outside of the Aiel. As Aviendha said, they actually practice doing so... so Elza could have been taught to unravel weaves i suppose...

Perhaps I am selling the Aiel short.

Unraveling, yes, sorry.

They practice it from childhood. I don't think Elza could learn it in a minute, nor that the best of the Aiel could unravel an inverted weave they had not done. Rand would not have woken up with Semirhage, he would have woken up with an explosion. :)

Terez 07-29-2010 02:04 AM

double post

Terez 07-29-2010 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 104766)
I've really already addressed this, and it isn't in keeping with the Dark One's nature at all to open a channeling school for aspiring darkfriends. The explanation for why this hasn't happened could easily be that the Dark One just didn't feel like it. In fact, that is a very likely explanation. He is not human, and thinking of him in human terms is not going to work all that well.

Heck, it's possible Elza disarmed Cadsuane's trap with the True Power.

No one ever said it wasn't possible. Just that the evidence is stacked against Sorilea. Too hard to believe that the timing was coincidental.

GonzoTheGreat 07-29-2010 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104831)
Too hard to believe that the timing was coincidental.

Do not underestimate the power of the Faith.

FelixPax 07-29-2010 05:40 AM

"The Special Nose" of Shaidar Haran; a Talent for "Smelling Objects"
 
I'm surprised no one else can considered the possibility that many in individuals knew that the Domination Band existed, and many other Aes Sedai knew where Cadsuane's room was located.
Sorilea is not the only who knew where Cadsuane's room is. :rolleyes:


Or can Shaidar Haran smell items of the Power, similar to how Hurin can smell violence?
Shaidar Haran we know can already smell the difference between Saidar, Saidin unlike any other Myrddraal who can not do this. So Shaidar Haran has a smelling Talent, a kin to a Gholam, who can smell the difference between Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power.
Can Shaidar Haran use his nose to find items of the Power, in a way similar how Padan Fain can find the Red Ruby Dagger?
Fain knew literally where to find that Red Ruby Dagger hidden in a lead box deep within the White Tower. Fain also had a Talent give to him by the Dark One to feel where Rand, Perrin, and Mat are located.

Can Shaidar Haran smell the differences between male and female created cuendillar?
It's possibly Dark One upgraded Shaidar Haran's abilities of "Smell" and "Finding Objects" to compensate for the rebellion of Padan Fain, whom had both of these Talents given to him by the Dark One at Shayol Ghul.
Shaidar Haran might not have needed any help finding that Domination Band, only help in physically removing it from the box.



Brandon did say on Book Tour, that Shaidar Haran is physically unable to touch the Domination Band. Why I'm not sure, but he needed physical aid by somebody. That somebody was not Sorilea, but Mesaana's Aes Sedai spy Elza.


If Shaidar Haran wanted to he could have Semirhage remove the Domination Band for the Box in Cadsuane's room. But no, he had a compromised Black Ajah spy, who supposedly under Mesaana's control in the person of Elza to do it.

Where as Beldeine is remains far more useful, to the Dark One still, because of her bond to Asha'man Karldin. Karldin can spy on Rand, in places where Beldeine cannot go. Rand has a degree of trust towards Karldin, and that is a valuable commodity these days.

Where as Fearil is not an Asha'man, and he was not trusted enough by Cadsuane to enter Far Madding. Fearil lacks the usefuliness, which Karldin has to the Dark One. Rand simply has not shown any extra level of trust towards Fearil. Hence, a less valuable of a commodity.

Neilbert 07-29-2010 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104831)
No one ever said it wasn't possible. Just that the evidence is stacked against Sorilea. Too hard to believe that the timing was coincidental.

Only if you ignore Sanderson's quotes on the matter, which you are obviously more than comfortable doing as you are in "defend my theory mode".

Neilbert 07-29-2010 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 104675)
Well, not if it had been Sorilea who gave the knowledge of those weaves, either directly to Elza or indirectly via SH.

The woman who had to be taught Traveling and Linking, and who can barely channel strong enough to light a candle has knowledge of several rare and unknown weaves.

Got it. Evidence totally stacked.

GonzoTheGreat 07-29-2010 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 104855)
The woman who had to be taught Traveling and Linking, and who can barely channel strong enough to light a candle has knowledge of several rare and unknown weaves.

Well, yes. She was shown those specific rare weaves by Cadsuane herself, after all. That definitely makes it more credible that she would have known them.

Neilbert 07-29-2010 10:51 AM

That's.... an interpretation of events. I'll grant you that.

However, why on earth would Cadsuane teach Sorelia "several rarely known weaves" when she could just teach Sorelia the specific weave needed to open the box?

It's like saying hey Gonzo, I'm going to teach you how to open my lock box. I have the key right here, but you don't get to use it, here's a lock pick set, have fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.

Taking this to mean that Sorelia taught Elza the weaves, and not Shaidar Haran, is deliberately going with the (much) weaker interpretation to support a theory.


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