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-   -   Is ******* a Darkfriend? (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2523)

GonzoTheGreat 07-29-2010 10:54 AM

Yeah, that is indeed a lot more fun. Though some such boxes are too easy once you've figured out the trick.

Terez 07-29-2010 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 104850)
Only if you ignore Sanderson's quotes on the matter, which you are obviously more than comfortable doing as you are in "defend my theory mode".

I haven't ignored his quotes at all. In fact, you are ignoring the fact that Brandon told us that Shaidar Haran has serious limitations. You're a dumbass if you think that Brandon would tell us straight out that Shaidar Haran didn't teach her the weaves. Even a RAFO would have drawn more attention to the subject than he wanted; the way he answered was a nice red herring.

Neilbert 07-30-2010 12:40 AM

You're just desperate for a theory. My objections have gone well beyond what you have deigned to cover, so w/e.

I read your theory on the main site. It would be fun to poke holes through, but I don't really have the time or inclination.

One thing that really did strike me though. You said that Elza is proof that Min's viewing about serving Rand didn't mean what we thought it did. However, Elza not serving Rand required the direct influence of the one force completely outside of the Wheel's control. We know that the Dark One is not limited by Min's visions, so the fact that Min's vision did not come true because of his direct influence does not say anything about the veracity of her visions one way or the other.

To a careful read it's obvious you are just trying to make connections. Have fun. You will probably stumble on to something else golden. This isn't it.

Terez 07-30-2010 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 104889)
You're just desperate for a theory.

How does that even make sense, when I come up with more theories than anyone else here? As you can see from the beginning of this thread, I was very skeptical of the idea in the beginning. After looking into it, I realized there were too many hints to ignore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
We know that the Dark One is not limited by Min's visions

This is retarded.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
so the fact that Min's vision did not come true because of his direct influence does not say anything about the veracity of her visions one way or the other.

I didn't say Min's vision wasn't true, dumbass. I just said that now we know how to interpret it - Min did not say that they would serve forever, and now we know that they might not.

IamChosen 07-30-2010 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 104889)
One thing that really did strike me though. You said that Elza is proof that Min's viewing about serving Rand didn't mean what we thought it did. However, Elza not serving Rand required the direct influence of the one force completely outside of the Wheel's control. We know that the Dark One is not limited by Min's visions, so the fact that Min's vision did not come true because of his direct influence does not say anything about the veracity of her visions one way or the other.

Min's visions always come true. Elza served Rand. There's one less Chosen in the world because of her. Sorilea served Rand too, already, whether she ends up being a Friend or dying in ToM's prologue. Those visions, in particular, already came true.

In fact, I think the greatest con against the Sorilea as a Friend of the Dark theory is that Min didn't end up with her throat slit a long time ago. Sorilea would not risk being uncovered by a random moment of Min going "Oh, she's going to do something evil!"

Terez 07-30-2010 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IamChosen (Post 104893)
In fact, I think the greatest con against the Sorilea as a Friend of the Dark theory is that Min didn't end up with her throat slit a long time ago. Sorilea would not risk being uncovered by a random moment of Min going "Oh, she's going to do something evil!"

I think that Sorilea knows that Min's viewings don't typically work that way. No Darkfriends get arrested or killed because of Min's viewings; Min has seen some telling things about two Darkfriends, Taim and Daved Hanlon, but those two viewings did not lead to any uncovering, and Sorilea does not know about them. And again, she was satisfied at Min's viewing, which Min interpreted to mean that Sorilea was pretending not to care one way or another about serving Rand, and Min specifically thought that it did not have anything to do with the women's obedience. Why? No explanation is readily available for the not-quite-rightness of the situation from Min's perspective at the time that it happens, but further down the road, the reasons get stronger to suspect that Sorilea was merely pleased that Min had a viewing that would lead Rand to believe that Sorilea was trustworthy.

GonzoTheGreat 07-30-2010 04:59 AM

Now I'm wondering what Min saw around Lanfear when the two of them met.

Terez 07-30-2010 05:03 AM

Well, it was in her POV, so you'd think she would have shared if she'd seen anything illuminating.

Ieyasu 07-30-2010 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104892)
How does that even make sense, when I come up with more theories than anyone else here?

Quality and Quantity are two very different things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
I think that Sorilea knows that Min's viewings don't typically work that way. No Darkfriends get arrested or killed because of Min's viewings; Min has seen some telling things about two Darkfriends, Taim and Daved Hanlon, but those two viewings did not lead to any uncovering, and Sorilea does not know about them. And again, she was satisfied at Min's viewing, which Min interpreted to mean that Sorilea was pretending not to care one way or another about serving Rand, and Min specifically thought that it did not have anything to do with the women's obedience. Why? No explanation is readily available for the not-quite-rightness of the situation from Min's perspective at the time that it happens, but further down the road, the reasons get stronger to suspect that Sorilea was merely pleased that Min had a viewing that would lead Rand to believe that Sorilea was trustworthy.

I think it is a stretch to think Sorilea included herself in Min's viewing. We know Min includes her internally, but given the context and Rand seeking her advise when the wiseones presented the Aes Sedai to Rand... I would think that on-lookers would apply Min's 'They will each serve you in her own way' to the Aes Sedai, not the wise-ome minders that brought them before him. Perhaps Sorilea included herself in the viewing, but as I already pointed out, I believe her 'smug' appearance is nothing more than wise-one pride that the charges Rand turned over into wise-one care have 'graduated' wise-one bootcamp. She showed similar 'smuggy' pride towards Egwene as well.

Keep in mind, Min's incredibility and inclusion of Sorilea was internal in her own mind. She didnt specify verbally in that scene that Sorilea was included in her viewing of the Aes Sedai. The Aes Sedai were asking to swear to Rand as others did, the wise-ones said they believed they felt it 'in their bones' Rand looks to Min, who in turn, looks at the Aes Sedai and Views them and then says they will each serve you in thier way. Including the wiseones and specifically, Sorilea was internal not verbal. Keep things in context.

Neilbert 07-30-2010 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104892)
How does that even make sense, when I come up with more theories than anyone else here?

LMAO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
This is retarded.

OK Callandor, when the soul gets removed naturally a person still maintains higher brain function.

Spoiler:
Yes, it is retarded, you are making the same exact dumb fucking mistake that Callandor made, assuming that what the Dark One did was in any way in keeping with the natural order of things.


Quote:

Originally Posted by tGS
"We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions." Corele nodded to Min. "They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying."

"No," Min said. "You're wrong."

Congratulations, you are stupid as an Aes Sedai.

Terez 07-30-2010 05:09 PM

Dumbass, I knew you were referring to that quote. You're still retarded.

Ieyasu 07-30-2010 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104927)
Dumbass, I knew you were referring to that quote. You're still retarded.

I find it amusing when people have to resort to blatant personal attacks and infantile name calling rather than being capable of mature discussion and rational defense. Says a lot when your only defense is to attempt to distract everyone with an old fashioned hair-pulling...



/popcorn

Terez 07-30-2010 07:03 PM

I find it amusing when trolls such as Neil and yourself come into a thread in attack mode and then try to act sanctimonious when I have the nerve to call you what you are.

Terez 07-30-2010 07:14 PM

Terez on Twitter
Does Min's comment to Corele mean that the Dark One can subvert her viewings BEFORE the Pattern is destroyed?
Terez again
Asked in reference to the viewing that Elza would serve Rand. Or did it simply not imply she would serve forever?
Brandon
Elza did serve Rand, in her own way. It did not mean forever. That was not a subverting of the viewing. (Or wasn't meant to be.)

I responded again already just to clarify that he didn't really answer the original question. The Demandred thing shows that he doesn't think like a Theorylander, lol, so maybe he will clarify further.

Edit:

Terez
Thanks! That's what I thought but some will still say you didn't answer the original question lol. It's Theoryland.
Brandon
Robert Jordan taught me to give Aes Sedai answers.
Terez
Fair enough. :)

Neilbert 07-30-2010 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104929)
I find it amusing when trolls such as Neil and yourself come into a thread in attack mode and then try to act sanctimonious when I have the nerve to call you what you are.

Lol get bent. You take things way too personally.

If you think attacking a theory does anything besides institute a sort of natural selection you seriously need to get the fuck over yourself.

I'd be inclined to thank you for the Twittering, if you hadn't hauled off and been a total twat about it.

Neilbert 07-30-2010 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 104928)
I find it amusing when people have to resort to blatant personal attacks and infantile name calling rather than being capable of mature discussion and rational defense. Says a lot when your only defense is to attempt to distract everyone with an old fashioned hair-pulling...

Says she's not worth talking to, when Gonzo is more willing to engage on a serious level...

Terez 07-30-2010 08:33 PM

See? This from the guy who is not ever nice to anyone, ever, and is always the first to go on the offensive. Get a clue, Neil. I'm tired of defending you to the people who come to Theoryland and get their heads bitten off for no reason. At least I only give my temper to those who deserve it.

IamChosen 07-31-2010 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104894)
I think that Sorilea knows that Min's viewings don't typically work that way. No Darkfriends get arrested or killed because of Min's viewings; Min has seen some telling things about two Darkfriends, Taim and Daved Hanlon, but those two viewings did not lead to any uncovering, and Sorilea does not know about them.

Yes, but it still is a risk. The same way Min looks at an Aes Sedai and says "she will serve you", at a former damane and says "she will help you die", she could look at Sorilea and say "she will betray you."

It wouldn't uncover her, but Rand would never trust her (or any other Wise One again). And if Sorilea is a Friend of the Dark, then I don't need to be Min to know that my viewing is right. :)

I dunno, I'm pragmatic. If I was a Friend of the Dark and I stayed around Rand a lot, Min had to go. It could be a one in a thousand chance that she'd look at me and see something damning, but Friends aren't keen on taking chances. The price of failure is too high.

Oh, btw:

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/wh/ch10.html

Here, Egwene's eyes augered. :)

---

Anyway, I think I'm gonna step back from this thread. It is devolving too fast, and frankly, that's not exactly what I had in mind when joining a new forum.

Thanks for the answers, and for the clever discussion in the last few days. I enjoyed it, and it'll give me some fresh perspectives on the books.

Enjoy ToM!

Terez 07-31-2010 05:39 AM

It's not always like that; only when the trolls get restless. ;) I have been putting up with these two for years, and I'm pretty sick of it.

GonzoTheGreat 07-31-2010 05:43 AM

Besides, DF have a tendency to be complacent, to think "it won't happen to me". If they didn't, they wouldn't hook up with the Father of Lies in the first place.


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