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Neilbert 07-31-2010 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104933)
See? This from the guy who is not ever nice to anyone, ever, and is always the first to go on the offensive. Get a clue, Neil. I'm tired of defending you to the people who come to Theoryland and get their heads bitten off for no reason. At least I only give my temper to those who deserve it.

I have never asked you to defend me. Or thanked you for defending me. Or given any indication that I cared that you defended me. And I'm not about to start now.

Terez 07-31-2010 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 104958)
I have never asked you to defend me. Or thanked you for defending me. Or given any indication that I cared that you defended me. And I'm not about to start now.

I know that Neil. :rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat 08-01-2010 04:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 104967)
I know that Neil. :rolleyes:

Good way of defending him against the charge of ingratitude.

Neilbert 08-01-2010 02:02 PM

I love when people do things for their own selfish reasons and then get pissy when you don't thank them for it...

W/E back to topic.

Since Min's vision allows for betrayal, the vision is essentially meaningless. Any one of those included could serve Rand his tea, then immediately stab him in the heart, and the vision would still be fulfilled. The only purpose of the vision that I can see was getting Rand to accept their oaths. Which is probably why Branden felt the need to clarify that it was not intended as a subversion of the vision. The purpose of the vision was not what it seemed.

It also seems to me like too much is going on. We have Sorelia, Shaidar Haran, and Elza all involved in some conspiracy, but really there is no need for all three of them that I can see. If Sorelia taught Elza her weaves, then Shaidar Haran didn't need to be involved in the slightest. Elza or Sorelia could have told Semerhage everything that Shaidar did, and nothing would have gone differently.

Terez 08-01-2010 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 105002)
I love when people do things for their own selfish reasons and then get pissy when you don't thank them for it...

Did this happen? If so, I am unaware of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
Since Min's vision allows for betrayal, the vision is essentially meaningless.

Min's viewings are always important. They all served Rand, just like she said they would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
It also seems to me like too much is going on. We have Sorelia, Shaidar Haran, and Elza all involved in some conspiracy, but really there is no need for all three of them that I can see. If Sorelia taught Elza her weaves, then Shaidar Haran didn't need to be involved in the slightest. Elza or Sorelia could have told Semerhage everything that Shaidar did, and nothing would have gone differently.

Shaidar Haran was necessary to free Semirhage. Also, he was necessary to order the whole thing; I doubt Sorilea or Elza would have come up with it on their own. Presumably it was Moridin's idea, a way of getting his revenge on Semirhage while bringing Rand closer to the dark side.

In any case, the theory is not so much about whether Sorilea would be needed to pull off such a thing (though the fact that she was needed is implied), but more about the coincidence of the timing. Why did Sorilea ask to see it, and why did she ask after the others? Why did she put Cadsuane in her debt in the first place, and then take advantage of that debt for those questions? What are the chances, that the box would be opened (again) the very next day? Add that to the dark language associated with Sorilea, the foreshadowing of a confrontation between Cadsuane and Sorilea, and Verin's thoughts on her, and we would be rather naive not to suspect her.

Also, as I've mentioned before, it is a very nice artistic full circle to have Sorilea put Cadsuane in her debt by teaching her a weave that she was not strong enough to make, and then to call in that debt to have Cadsuane teach her another weave she was not strong enough to make, and then have her use it to betray Cadsuane.

Most of us assumed when reading the book that Shaidar Haran was all that was needed to get into the box. Cadsuane assumed that the Forsaken had some way of getting past wards (which we know is not true). On second thought, there is Sorilea. The fact that we are all so reluctant to suspect her is part of what makes me so sure she's a Darkfriend. RJ did good on this one, because there certainly isn't any evidence against he being a Darkfriend, and plenty of clues that she is.

nameless 08-01-2010 04:19 PM

I only have two real problems with Sorilea as a Darkfriend: her behavior towards Egwene and her behavior towards Semirhage. As far as Egwene goes, I guess it's a question of which Forsaken is holding her reins. Ishamael put out orders for Egwene to be captured or killed early on in the series and never rescinded them that I'm aware of. Liandrin's coven tried to capture her on his orders in tGH and again under Lanfear's orders in tDR, after which she unexpectedly went to the Waste and dropped off the Darkfriend radar entirely. The Mesaana/Semirhage/Demandred circle, assisted by Aran'gar, used her as a tool to divide the Tower starting in LoC. The problem is the time period after the "take Egwene out of play" order was given and before the "use Egwene as a pawn" plan began, which she spent almost entirely in the company of the Aiel. For most of tSR and FoH, Lanfear was in direct control of the Aiel darkfriends, and since she didn't consider Egwene a threat the same way Ishy did she wouldn't have ordered them to move against her. After her "death" in Carhien, though, when Egwene was completely disabled, Sorilea had the perfect opportunity to finish her off. That suggests that either A) Sorilea had already received new orders from the triumvirate to keep Egwene alive and healthy or B) Sorilea never got the orders to remove Egwene in the first place because she's not a Darkfriend.
The way she reacted to Semirhage's captivity is the real dealbreaker in my opinion, though. It's not just how cool she was about it. After all, she's an incredibly capable woman and that level of dissimulation would be child's play for her. It's the way she gave a piece of advice that proved crucial for Cadsuane to figure out how to break Semi. I know Moridin was mad at her and wanted her to be captured and tortured, but he didn't want her to be broken and interrogated. One could argue that it's a moot point because the plan all along was to break her free and sacrifice her in a head-on attack against Rand, but that plan would have worked just as well if she were set free before Cadsuane broke her will to resist, and to allow her to be broken in the first place would create a substantial risk that she might reveal critical information to her captors before the "rescue" could take place.

edit:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Cadsuane assumed that the Forsaken had some way of getting past wards (which we know is not true).

How do we know this is not true again? Was there a POV I missed where one of the Forsaken said "it's a good thing these 3rd Agers aren't going around inventing new wards, because if they did we'd have no way to get past them?"

Neilbert 08-01-2010 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 105014)
Did this happen? If so, I am unaware of it.

I would be absolutely stunned if you were. A lack of self awareness is part of the package.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Min's viewings are always important. They all served Rand, just like she said they would.

If you had kept reading, you would notice that I did in fact conclude that the vision was important, just not for the obvious reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Shaidar Haran was necessary to free Semirhage.

No, Elza did that. Possibly using, according to you, weaves given to her by Sorilea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Also, he was necessary to order the whole thing; I doubt Sorilea or Elza would have come up with it on their own.

Why does coming up with it matter? There are many ways for messages to be delivered, we have seen Forsaken get information in their dreams. Shaidar Haran was not necessary.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
In any case, the theory is not so much about whether Sorilea would be needed to pull off such a thing (though the fact that she was needed is implied), but more about the coincidence of the timing.

Quote:

"She seems so much more human than I had anticipated," Sorilea said to Bair. "Her expressions, her tone, her accent, while strange, are easy to understand. I had not expected that."

Semirhage's eyes narrowed for just a moment at that comment. Odd. That was a stronger reaction than virtually any of the punishments had produced. The flashes of light and sound prompted only slight involuntary twitches. This comment of Sorilea's, however, seemed to affect Semirhage on an emotional level. Would the Wise Ones actually succeed so easily where Cadsuane had long failed?
Curious. I'm not sure how I feel about this exchange, though it does raise my interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Why did Sorilea ask to see it, and why did she ask after the others?

1. It's a threat to the Car'a'carn. It would be stupid not to be curious.
2. Because if she asked before, they would have had to leave the room and then come back. Unless Sorilea is dumb enough to assume that Cadsuane is dumb enough to keep the device in the same room as Semirhage.

Quote:

Sorilea hissed quietly, ignoring the statue and focusing on the bracelets and collar. "This thing is evil."

"Yes," Cadsuane said. Rarely would she have called a simple object "evil," but this one was. "Nynaeve al'Meara claims some familiarity with this thing. Though I have not been able to press out of the girl how she knows these things, she claims to know that there was only one male a'dam, and that she'd arranged for its disposal in the ocean. She also admits, however, that she didn't see it destroyed personally. It may have been used as a pattern by the Seanchan."

"This is unsettling to see," Sorilea said. "If one of the Shadowsouled, or even one of the Seanchan, captured him with this. . . .
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Why did she put Cadsuane in her debt in the first place,

Because Cadsuane is obviously an Aes Sedai of great standing and competence with her own agenda. You are asking a lot of questions that are really easy to answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
and then take advantage of that debt for those questions?

See above. Also, duh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
What are the chances, that the box would be opened (again) the very next day?

About 1 in 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Add that to the dark language associated with Sorilea,

Aah yes, the auger eyes shared by Egwene?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
the foreshadowing of a confrontation between Cadsuane and Sorilea,

Yawwwwwn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
and Verin's thoughts on her,

Double yawwwwn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
and we would be rather naive not to suspect her.

We should suspect everyone who hasn't been outed in a PoV. That doesn't make Sorelia special.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Also, as I've mentioned before, it is a very nice artistic full circle to have Sorilea put Cadsuane in her debt by teaching her a weave that she was not strong enough to make, and then to call in that debt to have Cadsuane teach her another weave she was not strong enough to make, and then have her use it to betray Cadsuane.

Personally I find it pretty boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
On second thought, there is Sorilea.

Except that Elza was taught weaves. Plural. Sorilea could have just taught Elza the weave (singular) to open the box.

Again, since you have given no indication that you are aware this point has been raised, much less responded to it:

Quote:

Q. How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?
A. Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
The fact that we are all so reluctant to suspect her is part of what makes me so sure she's a Darkfriend.

I think someone is overcompensating for missing Verin being Black Ajah. I'm reluctant to suspect Dobraine too, he must be a darkfriend!

Quote:

As Sorilea closed the door behind the three of them, Cadsuane disarmed the box's traps.
Quote:

Her new weave was much more versatile. It didn't destroy the items in the box—Cadsuane wasn't certain if they could be destroyed. Instead, the weaves—inverted to be invisible—sprang out in twisting threads of Air and captured anyone in the room when the box was opened.
There isn't even anything to indicate that Sorilea knew how to open the box. Cadsuane could easily have disabled it with an inverted weave; all we know is that she disabled it, Branden declined to specify how. In fact, given the context, that is far more likely. Cadsuane might, and I stress might, be willing to teach Sorelia, but Bair too? That stretches credulity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
because there certainly isn't any evidence against he being a Darkfriend, and plenty of clues that she is.

Quote:

"We have to do something about that man," Sorilea said, meeting Cadsuane's eyes. "He has grown worse since we last met."

"He has," Cadsuane said. "He's surprisingly accomplished at ignoring my training."

"Then let us discuss," Sorilea said, pulling over a stool. "A plan must be arranged. For the good of all."

"For the good of all," Cadsuane agreed. "Al'Thor himself most of all."
Aaaand here's Sorilea taking the initiative on the teaching Rand laughter and tears front. Yeah, that totally screams "darkfriend".

Terez 08-01-2010 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll (Post 105037)
I would be absolutely stunned if you were. A lack of self awareness is part of the package.

FYI, I got 'pissy' because you were being a troll. In fact, you still are, just as always.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
If you had kept reading, you would notice that I did in fact conclude that the vision was important, just not for the obvious reason.

You say that as though that is not what I have been arguing all along. You didn't change tunes until Brandon confirmed you are a dumbass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
Curious. I'm not sure how I feel about this exchange, though it does raise my interest.

Her treatment of Semirhage was just a way to show Cadsuane how inept she was at handling one of the Forsaken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
1. It's a threat to the Car'a'carn. It would be stupid not to be curious.

Again...timing. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the coincidence doesn't make it irrelevant. It just makes you a troll.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
2. Because if she asked before, they would have had to leave the room and then come back. Unless Sorilea is dumb enough to assume that Cadsuane is dumb enough to keep the device in the same room as Semirhage.

What does this have to do with anything?

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
Aah yes, the auger eyes shared by Egwene?

No, I didn't mention those in the theory because they are irrelevant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
We should suspect everyone who hasn't been outed in a PoV. That doesn't make Sorelia special.

What makes Sorilea 'special' are the clues that you refuse to acknowledge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
Except that Elza was taught weaves. Plural. Sorilea could have just taught Elza the weave (singular) to open the box.

How do you know it was a singular weave?

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
There isn't even anything to indicate that Sorilea knew how to open the box. Cadsuane could easily have disabled it with an inverted weave

Cadsuane does not know how to reverse active weaves. They can only invert weaves after they are already made; we didn't even learn about reversing until Demandred did it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troll
Cadsuane might, and I stress might, be willing to teach Sorelia, but Bair too? That stretches credulity.

Bair cannot channel, dumbass.

Finally, Sorilea has done absolutely nothing to try to help Rand, other than the little nothings she is required to do to make Cadsuane believe she is on her side. As for the plan, it led to Rand almost killing his father and destroying the whole world.

Terez 08-01-2010 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 105032)
I only have two real problems with Sorilea as a Darkfriend: her behavior towards Egwene and her behavior towards Semirhage.

I don't find anything in either that exonerates her. Linda believes her behavior with Egwene is further evidence she's a Darkfriend, as she tried to keep Egwene with the Aiel rather than allowing her to return to her duty. There was nothing to suggest that Sorilea was aware of any orders to kill her in the first place; from what we know of other Darkfriends, it seems highly unlikely that she would be.

As for Semirhage...again, she was required to put on a show for Cadsuane. I addressed this in the theory (which apparently no one has actually read), and in the comments.

Neilbert 08-01-2010 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 105044)
Again...timing. Just because you refuse to acknowledge the coincidence doesn't make it irrelevant. It just makes you a troll.

You know what, shut the fuck up. I never thought I'd put you on my ignore list, but Jesus Christ have you gone out of your way to ask for it.

Terez 08-01-2010 10:24 PM

Indeed. You are not on mine because you need to be dealt with. If you were ever reasonable about anything, then that would be different, but you are deliberately antagonistic in every single thread that you enter. There is nothing else with you.

Terez 08-01-2010 10:29 PM

Also, just to clarify....all of this bickering is NOT because you disagree with me. If you disagree with me, that's fine, and I will argue certain points about it, but as I have said elsewhere, I can still see her not being a Darkfriend. But to pretend as if all of the evidence is...'stupid', or whatever you want to call it, is just inane. Either Sorilea is a Darkfriend, or there is a deliberate red herring here. I am not making mountains out of molehills. To come into a debate like this with the attitude that you have is the behavior of a troll. There is no excuse for it.

FelixPax 08-02-2010 03:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 105032)
I only have two real problems with Sorilea as a Darkfriend: her behavior towards Egwene and her behavior towards Semirhage.

I'd add in Perrin point of view of Sorilea, against her being a darkfriend. Ditto Amys acceptance of Sorilea's leadership just before Dumai Wells, and seeing Amys as an first among equals.

Verin's point of view Sorilea, isn't the in the same league as Amys reactions to Sorilea over the series. Verin barely understands Aiel Culture, while Amys and the other Wise Ones do.

So are you going to next claim Therava was a Darkfriend, instead of something else?

Therava has personally done far worst acts, than Sorilea has ever done. Murdering a Wise One in cold murder, good enough? Yet I haven't seen one thread claim Therava was a Darkfriend.

This theory that Sorilea is a darkfriend, is built on iffy evidence, at best. Yes, I read your write-up Terez. I apprentice the time you devoted to writing it up, however I cannot support this theory.

Terez 08-02-2010 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 105061)
I'd add in Perrin point of view of Sorilea, against her being a darkfriend.

What, that she made his blood run cold?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
Ditto Amys acceptance of Sorilea's leadership just before Dumai Wells, and seeing Amys as an first among equals.

Sorilea was satisfied that Amys finally accepted that Sorilea was head honcho. Allowing her to be second best was no sacrifice at that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
So are you going to next claim Therava was a Darkfriend, instead of something else?

I wouldn't be surprised if she was. That she appears to be acting on her own rather than on orders doesn't really mean anything; Therava is a perfect candidate for a Darkfriend, though of course it's possible that she is just plain evil without being a Darkfriend; we don't discuss it because it's too obvious, and because it's now irrelevant to the plot (unlike Sorilea).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix
I cannot support this theory.

It's okay. I'm not so sure your endorsement would give me much comfort, LOL. ;)

greatwolf 08-02-2010 11:21 AM

Bair can't channel can she? And only she and Sorilea were there when Cadsuane disarmed the nukes. But unfortunately BS said Elza had to be taught some rarely known weaves and that wouldn't be needed if Sorilea was a DF would it?

These arguments run in circles. I think a glass of cold water should be prerequisite for anyone joining in.

GonzoTheGreat 08-02-2010 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 105077)
Bair can't channel can she? And only she and Sorilea were there when Cadsuane disarmed the nukes. But unfortunately BS said Elza had to be taught some rarely known weaves and that wouldn't be needed if Sorilea was a DF would it?

These arguments run in circles. I think a glass of cold water should be prerequisite for anyone joining in.

The rarely known weaves that Elza was taught could very well be precisely those that Sorilea had just seen.

After all, if the Shadow had known of weaves which could be used to disarm good wards, then Ishamael would have taken Callandor long before Rand was ever born.

One Armed Gimp 08-02-2010 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 105077)
Bair can't channel can she? And only she and Sorilea were there when Cadsuane disarmed the nukes. But unfortunately BS said Elza had to be taught some rarely known weaves and that wouldn't be needed if Sorilea was a DF would it?

These arguments run in circles. I think a glass of cold water should be prerequisite for anyone joining in.

I think he was getting at Elza not being needed as Sorilea could have just done it herself.

Eh, thats pretty weak. I mean if both Elza and Sorilea are DF's and you set this up for Semi, to go down, which is presumably what happened, do really pick Sorilea to go down with her? No, you pick the one that is in least useful position and that's Elza.

Ieyasu 08-02-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp (Post 105079)
I think he was getting at Elza not being needed as Sorilea could have just done it herself.

Eh, thats pretty weak. I mean if both Elza and Sorilea are DF's and you set this up for Semi, to go down, which is presumably what happened, do really pick Sorilea to go down with her? No, you pick the one that is in least useful position and that's Elza.

Ive been thinking more and more the 'rarely known weaves' provided to her are the method Elza used to incapacitate 3 trained channelers that were actively holding the power and maintaining a shield. We saw a glowing red lighting from under the door and Semirhage herself assumed all three were dead, even though we later found out only the one without a warder was killed outright. Should be interesting to hear what happened when the other two regain consciousness...

Whatever she did to them put them into some state of trance. We have not yet seen glowing red weaves that put ppl into a trance like that. Seems pretty rare and unknown to me...

Cadsuane's ward was a glorified alarm, I can see it being defeated with a few simple weaves that nearly every single channeler knows and can use (sound barrier weave and merely touch it with any weave after that). The alarm weave is nonlethal and doesnt require the proper disarm weaves to defeat it.

Sukoto 08-02-2010 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 105081)
Ive been thinking more and more the 'rarely known weaves' provided to her are the method Elza used to incapacitate 3 trained channelers that were actively holding the power and maintaining a shield.

This could be. But since there was some semantic arguing going on earlier about plurals and all that, consider this:

Quote:

tGS Ch. 23:
"They shouldn't have touched this," Cadsuane said, taking the box from the Maiden. "It was prepared with very intricate wards."
So, along with whatever vagueness Brandon gave us, several rare and unknown weaves alone may have been required to defeat Cadsuane's wards (plural).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 105081)
Cadsuane's ward was a glorified alarm, I can see it being defeated with a few simple weaves that nearly every single channeler knows and can use (sound barrier weave and merely touch it with any weave after that). The alarm weave is nonlethal and doesnt require the proper disarm weaves to defeat it.

Through all this, knowledge of the Power or cleverness is less important than knowledge of the situation. One could think of triggering a ward and simultaneously negating its effect if one knew what the ward was going to do, but Cadsuane didn't tell anyone, she only thought it for the reader's benefit. I doubt anyone, including the Forsaken, would intentionally trigger a ward if they didn't know what it would do.

Side note: I love a good TL fight. They are so entertaining. It prompts me to ponder why so many human beings are, to a certain extent, entertained by conflict and violence.
:)

nameless 08-02-2010 04:16 PM

Isn't it because conflict and violence are entertaining?


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