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Wunderwaffe 11-29-2009 07:09 PM

Of course RJ isn't going to say that there is anything special about this Age. If he would say otherwise, hardcore fans such as those who common this website would be able to ascertain a few things that he wants unsaid until the End.

Terez 11-29-2009 08:03 PM

Yeah, but he could have said RAFO! lol...but he was reluctant to use that as well. Better to give an Aes Sedai answer. :)

One Armed Gimp 11-29-2009 08:19 PM

I doubt Rand can kill the DO, I do not see that as being a possibility. I almost think that doing so would possibly destroy the pattern as well. It would take away from the balance that RJ so adamantly promotes through out the books.

Terez 11-29-2009 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77 (Post 78682)
It will be interesting to see if Rand's kill the Dark One plan lasts after he's come to terms with the nature of his destiny and the fact that he wants the Wheel to keep turning as of the end of tGS. The desire to kill the Dark One was part of his megalomania that developed and finally came to a head in tGS.

Hmm, it's hard to blame it on his megalomania when he had the same naive belief way back in the first three books:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 52 - Neither Beginning Nor End

"My name," he said after a while, "is Rand al'Thor." More memory crashed back into his head like a lead ball, and he groaned. "The Dark One," he whispered to himself. "The Dark One is dead." There was no more need for caution. "Shai'tan is dead." The world seemed to lurch. He shook in silent mirth until tears poured from his eyes. "Shai'tan is dead!" He laughed at the sky. Other memories. "Egwene!" That name meant something important.

...

"Aginor and Balthamel are dead, and so is Shai'—"

"The Dark One," the Aes Sedai cut him off. Ill or not, her voice was firm, and her dark eyes commanding. "Best we still call him the Dark One. Or Ba'alzamon, at least."

He shrugged. "As you wish. But he's dead. The Dark One's dead. I killed him. I burned him with ..." The rest of memory flooded back then, leaving his mouth hanging open. The One Power. I wielded the One Power. No man can ... He licked lips that were suddenly dry. A gust of wind swirled fallen and falling leaves around them, but it was no colder than his heart. They were looking at him, the three of them. Watching. Not even blinking. He reached out to Egwene, and there was no imagination in her drawing back this time. "Egwene?" She turned her face away, and he let his hand drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 49 - What Was Meant to Be

"I killed him," he said softly. "This time I killed him."

Moiraine put the ruined sword aside like the useless thing it now was, and wiped her hands together. "The Dark One is not slain so easily. The mere fact that he appeared in the sky above Falme is more than merely troubling. He should not be able to do that, if he is bound as we believe. And if he is not, why has he not destroyed us all?" Min stirred uneasily.

Nice reference to the shroud of darkness, halo of blackness, warp in the air thingy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What is Written in Prophecy

"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel-black lines around Ba'alzamon, and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.

Ba'alzamon screamed, and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he howled. "The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body sagged and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.

I have done it, he thought. I have killed Ba'alzamon, killed Shai'tan! I have won the Last Battle! Light, I AM the Dragon Reborn! The breaker of nations, the Breaker of the World. No! I will END the breaking, end the killing! I will MAKE it end!

He raised Callandor above his head. Silver lightning crackled from the blade, jagged streaks arching toward the great dome above. "Stop!" he shouted. The fighting ceased; men stared at him in wonder, over black veils, from beneath the rims of round helmets. "I am Rand al'Thor!" he called, so his voice rang through the chamber. "I am the Dragon Reborn!" Callandor shone in his grasp.One by one, veiled men and helmeted, they knelt to him, crying, "The Dragon is Reborn! The Dragon is Reborn!"

And Rand remembering his naivete when he sees 'Ba'alzamon' again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

A man sat in the chair on the left. Tall and youthful, he had a square face and ancient blue eyes that reflected the hearth-fire, turning his irises almost purple. The other chair was empty. Rand walked to it and sat down, calming his heart and watching the dancing flames. He had seen this man before in visions, not unlike the ones that appeared when he thought of Mat or Perrin.

The colors did not appear on this thought of his friends. That was odd, but somehow not unexpected. The visions he'd seen of the man in the other chair were different from the ones involving Perrin and Mat. They were more visceral, somehow, more real. At times during those visions, Rand had felt almost as if he could reach out and touch this man. He'd been afraid of what would happen if he did.

He had met the man only once. At Shadar Logoth. The stranger had saved Rand's life, and Rand had often wondered who he had been. Now, in this place, Rand finally knew.

"You are dead," Rand whispered. "I killed you."

The man didn't look from the fire as he laughed. It was a rough, low-throated laugh that held little true mirth. Once, Rand had known this man only as Ba'alzamon—a name for the Dark One—and had foolishly thought that in killing him, he had defeated the Shadow for good.

"I watched you die," Rand said. "I stabbed you through the chest with Callandor. Isha—"

"That is not my name," the man interrupted, still watching the flames. "I am known as Moridin, now."


Ozymandias 11-29-2009 09:12 PM

I would think that the very longevity of his belief he can kill the Dark One is evidence to its "monumental stupidity." When he was an ignorant farmboy, he thought the war would be ended with the death of one side. Its just not in the human condition to believe victory is impossible. Or not normally. Its that very sense of inevitability that drove him insane in the first place.

Nothing says RJ's characters know what the hell they're talking about. I mean, I'd guess that on average, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne have combined to be wrong far more than their right, and Rand isn't too far behind on the mistaken assumptions count.

I always thought that scene with Moridin was evidence of Rand's growing megalomania. Nothing in the history of Randland suggests the Dark One can be killed. Similarly, we know Rand isn't exactly a philosopher, and I doubt he managed to outthink the greatest minds of the greatest Age in the history of the world. I trust Elan Morin Tendronai on this one. Speaking of which, there is no chance he turns to the Light, to whoever suggested that. As Rand/LTT implies, he became snarled in the inevitability of his own thoughts and fears, and so turned, and in the process became insane. He will dismiss any offer Rand can make.

And, of course, its important to grasp that the Dark One is a being that exists outside of the Pattern. Rand, for all his importance, is just a thread in that Pattern. If it was within the power of the Pattern to get rid of the Dark One, it would have done so long ago. As it has not, it is not within its power. And therefore, as a part of that Pattern, it is not within Rand's power either.

bluejam 11-30-2009 02:48 AM

I've always assumed that the Taint was the True Power, seeped into Saidin because of the seals touching the prison.

And I also assumed (lotsa assumptions, but hey, all opinion here) the True Power is the Dark One's essence, just like Mordeth is basically his own power incarnate as well.

So if we take from that, and with Shadar Logoth at the cleansing destroying the Taint (True Power, Essence of D.O. imho), that the DO can be destroyed, or at least bottled up in an endless fight with Mashadar.

The only tough part would be getting access.

But his wound is almost exactly this scenario, the DO essence fighting the Mashadar essence inside him, while the One Power was weaved on it to keep it contained.

wolframbohr2 11-30-2009 04:21 AM

If the True Power comes from the Dark One, is there a Power that comes from the Creator? Jordan does like balance. If there is, and Rand learns to use it and fixes the hole with it, it will be as good as when the Creator made the prison since it would be the same Power that made the prison in the first place. Thus there would be no hole.

There had to be thinness during the first turning of the Wheel. Something caused it, or the Creator made it when he locked the Dark One away. I am of the persuasion that something like the prison the Creator would have been perfect in doing it. If not he would step in to fix it because he was the one who caused it. The reason he does not step in during the turnings of the Wheel is that somehow something in one of the other Ages caused a thinning that could be detected in the Age of Legend. Thus it is up to us to “fix” it. After this Age, the prison needs to be fixed as good as new, so that something in the other age can thin it again and not cause the Dark One to break free then and there.

This becomes null and void if the Creator indeed created the prison with a thinness setting up conflicts for the Ages.

GonzoTheGreat 11-30-2009 05:15 AM

Perhaps Rand can kill the DO, but only if the latter stands and fights. So, when Rand is about to deal out the death blow, the DO runs away and pulls his prison shut behind himself, killing Rand (who stood in the doorway) in the process. This also solves the "how can a man seal the prison as well as the Creator did" problem, since now it would be the DO, not Rand, who is doing this.

Of course, it requires that Alivia is really the DO, but that is not a very serious problem, I think.

One Armed Gimp 11-30-2009 07:00 AM

Maybe Rand isn't in the "doorway". Alivia knows that Rand's blood is actually what the Creator used to seal the door so she pushes him in.

padfoot89 11-30-2009 07:09 AM

Didn't RJ say that Fain was unique to this age ?
If so, there could be a twist in this age that didn't happen before. We've seen that the DO's evil and Mordeth's evil doesn't mix well. Fain's two main goals seem to be to kill Rand and then the DO. Maybe Rand will pretend to die with Alivia's help, and Fain will then accidentally kill the DO.
Killing the DO does not necessarily mean that DO should physically die, just that he is unable to touch the world ever again. Maybe Rand will do something to shift the prison somewhat so that humans will never be able to detect the DO power no matter what the DO does.
I never saw Ishamael as insane. To me, his decision to join the Shadow makes logical sense. Many forsaken think he is insane because of his frequent TP usage. But it makes sense from Ishamael's point of view as eventually everyone would die and he is making most of his opportunities.
If Rand can make proper arguments for his case, I think he can win over Moridin. He even acknowledges the possibility that Rand might win. You'd think that for DO's top guy, he'd not have even thought about failure. We've seen third-agers do stuff that people in the AoL thought were impossible so Moridin dismissing it doesn't mean its impossible.

Enigma 11-30-2009 09:02 AM

I remember RJ gave an interview some time ago when he said that people used to believe that time wasy like a wheel and that things repeated themselves endlessly. I believe he said that the gift that the (I think he said) Greeks gave the world was the concept of linear time.

When I heard that I always wondered if RJ would have Rand finally doing what so many dragons have never done before and that was not to settle for a status quo but to do something that removed the DO forever. In essence he would make the Last Battle a real "Last" Battle.

WinespringBrother 11-30-2009 09:59 AM

I wonder if it is possible to "taint" the Dark One, as he tainted saidin, since the Pattern and the Prison seem to be as matter/antimatter. (and channeling the OP makes Fades itchy) This may not kill him but it could distract him or drive him insane at least, if he isn't already.

How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

Bonzi77 11-30-2009 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 78708)
Hmm, it's hard to blame it on his megalomania when he had the same naive belief way back in the first three books:

Exactly, naive. When he became better educated he became more focussed on sealing the bore than killing the Dark One. His latest "Kill the Dark One" plan came as a result of him wanting to not have to live this saga over and over again.

padfoot89 11-30-2009 02:26 PM

I just came across a passage in Fires of Heaven where Rand talks to Asmodean about cleansing the taint and Asmodean reacts in a similar scornful manner. Rand eventually does clean it because of Shadar Logoth. Foreshadowing ?

Terez 11-30-2009 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padfoot89 (Post 78786)
Maybe Rand will pretend to die with Alivia's help

nooooooooooooooo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma (Post 78799)
I remember RJ gave an interview some time ago when he said that people used to believe that time wasy like a wheel and that things repeated themselves endlessly. I believe he said that the gift that the (I think he said) Greeks gave the world was the concept of linear time.

I quoted it, post #2. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma
When I heard that I always wondered if RJ would have Rand finally doing what so many dragons have never done before and that was not to settle for a status quo but to do something that removed the DO forever. In essence he would make the Last Battle a real "Last" Battle.

Yeah, I had a similar thought. I'm still deliberating on that one, though. He has also made clear many times that this is a fantasy world, which is why circular time is reality there. He's also made some disparaging remarks on theoretical physics, comparing it to religion, but he's made theoretical physics the reality in his world, along with other things like elemental powers, and legal insanity (wonder what his political opinion was on this one), MPD/schizophrenia (same).

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 78813)
How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

hahaha, pretty bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77 (Post 78816)
Exactly, naive. When he became better educated he became more focussed on sealing the bore than killing the Dark One. His latest "Kill the Dark One" plan came as a result of him wanting to not have to live this saga over and over again.

Yeah, there is that. But Rand is stubborn - what's to say he won't get stuck on the idea? :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by padfoot89 (Post 78942)
I just came across a passage in Fires of Heaven where Rand talks to Asmodean about cleansing the taint and Asmodean reacts in a similar scornful manner. Rand eventually does clean it because of Shadar Logoth. Foreshadowing ?

Or red herring? That is the question...

Bonzi77 11-30-2009 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 78958)


Yeah, there is that. But Rand is stubborn - what's to say he won't get stuck on the idea? :)


Yeah, that's why it will be interesting to see if that particular thought sticks with him. He's made a rational and conscious realization about the nature of what his life and destiny are as of the end of tGS, but I don't think that necessarily means all of the byproducts of his being nuts are going to simply go away.

Kimon 11-30-2009 04:49 PM

Has there ever been anything definitive to argue for or against Shaidar Haran (as his name would imply) being either directly linked to or perhaps endowed with some part of the Dark One's essence -perhaps in a way similar to what Sauron did with the one ring. If so, what damage might it do the the Dark One if Shaidar Haran was balefired?

DeiwosTheSkyGod 11-30-2009 06:53 PM

If Rand does kill the Dark One, I think it has to be more complicated than cleansing the taint was. I don't see Fain's evil as proportional enough to the Dark One's to cancel them both out the way Shadar Logoth and the taint did.

Crispin's Crispian 11-30-2009 07:04 PM

I don't think Rand can ever kill the DO. What I've always thought was more likely was that Rand either breaks the Wheel or otherwise stops circular time.

Another alternative is just that Rand uses Fain somehow to seal the prison, possibly using himself as well. It would be like a two-layer seal: Fain touches the DO to neutralize his power. Fain also buffers Rand from the DO's direct influence. Rand, in turn, is the buffer to the rest of the Pattern. You can't make a seal with just Fain, because you need a part of the Pattern to seal it up as well and Fain is too volatile.

One Armed Gimp 11-30-2009 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 79022)
I don't think Rand can ever kill the DO. What I've always thought was more likely was that Rand either breaks the Wheel or otherwise stops circular time.

Wouldn't either of those essentially "break" the pattern, thus releasing the DO?


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