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Crispin's Crispian 11-30-2009 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp (Post 79023)
Wouldn't either of those essentially "break" the pattern, thus releasing the DO?

Not if Rand seals him first. The Pattern is a metaphor. If you sealed up the DO then changed circular time to linear time, you'd never have to deal with the DO again.

DeiwosTheSkyGod 11-30-2009 07:18 PM

But if Rand seals him, doesn't that automatically trap the world into circular time?

One Armed Gimp 12-01-2009 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 79026)
Not if Rand seals him first. The Pattern is a metaphor. If you sealed up the DO then changed circular time to linear time, you'd never have to deal with the DO again.

But the Pattern is the prison and is woven by the Wheel. If you break the Wheel there is no more Pattern and therefore, no more prison.

Yellowbeard 12-01-2009 09:01 AM

Regarding changing time from circular to linear:

The One Power is what drives the turning of the Wheel, right? I don't think you have to break the wheel or pattern to change to from circular to linear time. You just have to come up with a way to make the wheel stop turning and you stay in the current age from then on.

So how about if Rand figured out a way to make the One Power go away. No more channeling, but no more turning of the wheel, therefore, linear time, and the DO's prison is never breached again.

I've had a pet looney theory that somehow Rand would use up ALL of the one power, both saidin and saidar, in healing the power. He'd use sa'angreal/links to guide it all into:
-unmaking/removing the bore
-healing the pattern
-putting all remaining unused OP into the pattern as additional sealing/extra strengthing of the pattern to resist the DO forever.

Then, no more channeling, therefore, no more bores into the DO's prison, and no more OP to make the wheel turn again. Hence, conversion from circular into linear time.

Crispin's Crispian 12-01-2009 09:57 AM

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Originally Posted by DeiwosTheSkyGod (Post 79035)
But if Rand seals him, doesn't that automatically trap the world into circular time?

Why would it?

Crispin's Crispian 12-01-2009 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp (Post 79108)
But the Pattern is the prison and is woven by the Wheel. If you break the Wheel there is no more Pattern and therefore, no more prison.

Where does it say that the Pattern is the prison? The Dark One is imprisoned outside the Pattern, not by the Pattern.

Again, the Pattern is a metaphor for the sort of predestiny woven by the Wheel. The Wheel weaves a specific Pattern to keep itself in balance. But if you no longer have a Wheel, nothing needs to be kept in balance, and you no longer need a Pattern. All that happens is that (a) you get rid of that particular predestiny, and (b) you don't have to keep repeating the same mistakes.

I think Rand's/LTT's thoughts about this are strong circumstantial evidence. Each time around the Wheel is another chance to get something right. It's another chance not to make the same mistakes you made before (sounds suspiciously like Hindu reincarnation, doesn't it?). But what happens when you get it right? You don't need to go around again if there are no mistakes.

Bonzi77 12-01-2009 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowbeard (Post 79119)

So how about if Rand figured out a way to make the One Power go away. No more channeling, but no more turning of the wheel, therefore, linear time, and the DO's prison is never breached again.

There's a couple of problems with this. One, there's going to be, at some point in the future a time when there are no channelers. The beginning of the Age of Legends happened when channeling was rediscovered, so when the Age of Legends comes again, there has to be no channeling. So the One Power going away doesn't make time necessarily linear.

Second, as long as the Dark One exists, he could be rediscovered and have his prison breached, regardless of whether the Wheel turned or not. Only if that happened, there'd be no wheel to defend against him.

And finally, I think in the world RJ created, there's a very good possibility that stopping the wheel in it's tracks or breaking it all together would really screw some stuff up in a monumental way, Dark One or no.

Yellowbeard 12-01-2009 03:08 PM

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One, there's going to be, at some point in the future a time when there are no channelers. The beginning of the Age of Legends happened when channeling was rediscovered, so when the Age of Legends comes again, there has to be no channeling. So the One Power going away doesn't make time necessarily linear.
You're missing the point. The turning of the Wheel to the next age is driven by the OP. So if there's no more OP, then there's nothing to make the wheel turn. Therefore, the wheel never turns again and a new age/ages never begins.

The Wheel would stay stuck in an age w/ no DO forever.

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Second, as long as the Dark One exists, he could be rediscovered and have his prison breached, regardless of whether the Wheel turned or not. Only if that happened, there'd be no wheel to defend against him.
The AoL researchers that found the DO and created the bore were only able to do so via the OP. That's the only way to discover and/or contact the DO. Future generations would have no way to channel, therefore the only way for them discover the DO would not be an option. Therefore, it would be impossible for future generations to rebore the DO's prison, or even detect his presence outside the pattern.

People have to first create conditions that create the risk from the DO. Without channeling, that can't ever happen again in the future. Therefore, the DO can never threaten the world again because future generations would be barred from using the power they need to rebore his prison.

In short, people would be protected from their own ignorance in the future because they wouldn't be able to channel, therefore they wouldn't be able to rediscover/rebore the DO's prison.

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And finally, I think in the world RJ created, there's a very good possibility that stopping the wheel in it's tracks or breaking it all together would really screw some stuff up in a monumental way, Dark One or no.
I think that's totally speculative. Until Moridin's comments about the DO's intent to destroy creation, I personally thought the goal of the DO was to break free, and "break the wheel" so that it couldn't turn again, while leaving creation intact. That way, the DO is free and the Wheel cannot advance to an age where the DO is not free, thereby leaving the DO free forever to rule and be evil. Afterall, what's the point of being evil if there's nobody left to be evil towards?

I still suspect that actually despite Moridin's words. Moridin has been insane for 3000+ years. Trusting anything he says without any sort of criticism is a bad idea.

Daekyras 12-01-2009 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowbeard (Post 79166)
The turning of the Wheel to the next age is driven by the OP. So if there's no more OP, then there's nothing to make the wheel turn. Therefore, the wheel never turns again and a new age/ages never begins.

The Wheel would stay stuck in an age w/ no DO forever.

The AoL researchers that found the DO and created the bore were only able to do so via the OP. That's the only way to discover and/or contact the DO. Future generations would have no way to channel, therefore the only way for them discover the DO would not be an option. Therefore, it would be impossible for future generations to rebore the DO's prison, or even detect his presence outside the pattern.

I like the idea of using up all the one power but do we know that it is one power that actually DRIVES the wheel?

I know this will sound silly but I've always thought of the wheel as providing the one power. i.e The one power is created as the wheel turns.

See, I see the power as being electricity. The One Power is like AC- Created by movement(the wheel). I wrote a theory on it some years ago.

TP is like DC-provided from a fixed source(DO)

Weird Harold 12-01-2009 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowbeard (Post 79166)
Therefore, the wheel never turns again and a new age/ages never begins.

The Wheel would stay stuck in an age w/ no DO forever.

Since theWheel IS Time, if the Wheel stops what you would get is a DVD player with the Pause function stuck; an eternal freeze frame.

Ozymandias 12-01-2009 04:26 PM

I don't think its possible. If it was possible, it would have been done. The Dark One exists outside of the Pattern. Therefore nothing in the Pattern can destroy him. They can merely block his access to the Pattern.

If it was possible for something within the Pattern to destroy the Dark One, the Wheel would have spun out that someone or something long ago. Rand cannot affect anything that is not within the Pattern, and the Dark One certainly isn't.

Weird Harold 12-01-2009 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daekyras (Post 79170)
I like the idea of using up all the one power but do we know that it is one power that actually DRIVES the wheel?

I know this will sound silly but I've always thought of the wheel as providing the one power. i.e The one power is created as the wheel turns.

BWB
Chapter One
The Wheel and the Pattern


The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

Daekyras 12-01-2009 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 79179)
BWB
Chapter One
The Wheel and the Pattern


The Great Wheel is the very heart of all time. But even the Wheel requires energy to maintain itself and its pattern. This energy comes from the True Source, from which the One Power may be drawn. Both the True Source and the One Power are made up of two conflicting yet complementary parts: saidin, the male half, and saidar, the female half. Working both together and against one another within the True Source, it is saidin and saidar which provide the driving force that turns the Wheel of Time.

Thank you WH.

Mat is Better 12-02-2009 12:44 AM

There have been a few statements that imply the Forsaken know everything. Obviously they don't. Granted, Ishmael probably knows a lot more about the DO than other forsaken as a result of his status. However, even if there was a way for Rand to kill the DO, or to make the prison anew, do you really think the DO would allow his underlings to learn about it? Knowing the secret to kill/enslave the DO would be quite a a powerful tool for any of the forsaken. I believe they are simply ignorant about these matters.

Short version: it doesn't matter whether the Forsaken think anything is possible or not, because they are not all knowing.

I do not think that Rand himself can kill the DO, but I do believe it is possible to kill him. I won't make any claims about what I think is going to happen because frankly, I have no idea.

Ozymandias 12-02-2009 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mat is Better (Post 79237)
There have been a few statements that imply the Forsaken know everything. Obviously they don't. Granted, Ishmael probably knows a lot more about the DO than other forsaken as a result of his status. However, even if there was a way for Rand to kill the DO, or to make the prison anew, do you really think the DO would allow his underlings to learn about it? Knowing the secret to kill/enslave the DO would be quite a a powerful tool for any of the forsaken. I believe they are simply ignorant about these matters.

Short version: it doesn't matter whether the Forsaken think anything is possible or not, because they are not all knowing.

I do not think that Rand himself can kill the DO, but I do believe it is possible to kill him. I won't make any claims about what I think is going to happen because frankly, I have no idea.

It has never been implied the Forsaken are all knowing. They consider themselves to be the cream of the crop of an Age that was the pinnacle of human civilization.

This sounds silly, but they know a great deal more than current Randlanders about things they know. What they don't know are some of the innovations of the Age; Warders, Healing the Stilled, the like. These are big gaps in knowledge, but I think its very safe to assume they know a great deal about the Dark One, given their intimate relationship with him.

Anyways, its patently obvious the Dark One cannot be killed. The Creator could not do it. The Wheel and Pattern cannot do it. There is nothing left.

Ieyasu 12-02-2009 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79256)
Anyways, its patently obvious the Dark One cannot be killed. The Creator could not do it. The Wheel and Pattern cannot do it. There is nothing left.

The Creator could not... or would not? I wouldn't mistake a lack of desire for a lack of ability...

1Powerslave 12-02-2009 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79176)
I don't think its possible. If it was possible, it would have been done. The Dark One exists outside of the Pattern. Therefore nothing in the Pattern can destroy him. They can merely block his access to the Pattern.

"If it was possible it would have been done" ... How do you know how many times the Wheel have turned? It's obvious that as the number of turnings approach infinity, just about everything will have been tried. But as we don't know how much the Wheel has turned we really can't know that all has been tried. Add to this the Wheel's ability to fight innovation through predestiny.

Ieyasu argument is solid. We don't know what the Creator wants.

I believe that the Pattern basically is the prison (the Pattern, or Time, or some such nifty paradox, trapped behind reality). We have the Bore being drilled in the Pattern. The resulting increased thinness of the Pattern. And the resulting increased influence of the Dark One. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

If the Creator had the ability to create a world to hold down the Dark One. Why did he create a flawed one with people in it to open the prison?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oz
If it was possible for something within the Pattern to destroy the Dark One, the Wheel would have spun out that someone or something long ago. Rand cannot affect anything that is not within the Pattern, and the Dark One certainly isn't.

This is too assumptious for my taste. Fain is outside (or sidestepped) the Pattern, yet I certainly think Rand can affect Fain. Both physically, and mentally - by just being, Rand is an object of both Fain's and the Dark One's obsessions - Rand's actions affect their actions. The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Dark One mutually annihilated each other. This too is a clue that the Dark One can be... affected.

Ozymandias 12-02-2009 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Powerslave (Post 79290)
"If it was possible it would have been done" ... How do you know how many times the Wheel have turned? It's obvious that as the number of turnings approach infinity, just about everything will have been tried. But as we don't know how much the Wheel has turned we really can't know that all has been tried. Add to this the Wheel's ability to fight innovation through predestiny.

Thats a complete strawman argument. We know the Wheel is capable of turning out ta'veren at will to correct flaws in the Pattern. Thus, if the Pattern can produce a thread capable of destroying the Dark One completely, it can do so at will. Logically, if it was possible, it would have done so as soon as possible. We don't need to know how many times the Wheel has turned. It only needs to turn 1/7th of its first full rotation in order to produce an individual with the capability to kill the Dark One. Thats just fact. To assume that the Wheel can produce a person who can kill the Dark One and has not done so indicates that the Dark One plays some vital role in the workings of the universe, and therefore that the Wheel will not permit the Dark One to be killed. Its in inescapable logical bind. Which brings me to my next point

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Ieyasu argument is solid. We don't know what the Creator wants.
Of course we do. If we assume the Creator has the power to destroy the Dark One, his choice not to do so indicates an acceptance of his presence. Its tacit approval. The Dark One is evil. The Creator's tolerance of its presence is an acknowledgement that the Dark One plays a role in the working of the universe.

Its completely irrelevant as to whether the Creator could not or would not, because they both equate to the same conclusion in this argument. If he cannot kill the Dark One, neither can Rand. If he would not kill the Dark One, Rand will not be permitted to do so either.

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If the Creator had the ability to create a world to hold down the Dark One. Why did he create a flawed one with people in it to open the prison?
Well, there are clearly several possibilities here. One is that the Dark One has influence over the Pattern regardless, just to a much lesser extent, and thus managed to warp the intent of the Pattern so that someone drilled into his prison. Another is that the Creator is NOT powerful enough to defeat the Dark One (implying Rand cannot either), and thus merely did the best job he could. A third possibility is that, as I postulated before, the Dark One plays a vital role in the balancing act of the metaphysical universe Randland floats in, and thus is not only tolerated but to a certain extent expected to flourish to one degree or another.

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This is too assumptious for my taste. Fain is outside (or sidestepped) the Pattern, yet I certainly think Rand can affect Fain. Both physically, and mentally - by just being, Rand is an object of both Fain's and the Dark One's obsessions - Rand's actions affect their actions. The evil of Shadar Logoth and the evil of the Dark One mutually annihilated each other. This too is a clue that the Dark One can be... affected.
The Taint was merely the touch of the Dark One, not the Dark One. A small trace of his passage, so to speak. It took the full evil of Shadar Logoth to divert away an infestimally small portion of Shai'tan's power... and Fain is merely a small fraction of the full power of Shadar Logoth.

And I object to the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern. Its a poor approximation of words for what his true status must be. He's not outside the Pattern, he's outside the control of the Wheel. His actions are still contained within the general framework of the Pattern; he responds to events the Pattern dictates, and the Pattern by necessity responds to his actions. The independent variable is that whatever plan the Pattern had for him is now gone, and he acts and reacts independently of the Wheel's guiding influence.

DeiwosTheSkyGod 12-02-2009 04:10 PM

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Of course we do. If we assume the Creator has the power to destroy the Dark One, his choice not to do so indicates an acceptance of his presence. Its tacit approval. The Dark One is evil. The Creator's tolerance of its presence is an acknowledgement that the Dark One plays a role in the working of the universe.
Do we assume that the Creator has that power, though? I don't think we really know all that much about Him. We might assume he's all-powerful because we picture God in our world to be all-powerful, but what if the Creator actually isn't?

Have you ever read Stephen King's IT? It might be like the ending of that book - the Turtle (the Creator) is a force of creation, but cannot take part in destruction, because that is the function of Pennywise (the Dark One). Maybe that's why the Creator has never taken part in beating the DO - he needs someone else to do it for him.

Dunno, just a thought.

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And I object to the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern.
Pretty sure RJ said that Fain has sidestepped the Pattern.

Ieyasu 12-02-2009 04:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79291)
Its completely irrelevant as to whether the Creator could not or would not, because they both equate to the same conclusion in this argument. If he cannot kill the Dark One, neither can Rand. If he would not kill the Dark One, Rand will not be permitted to do so either.

I don't think the Creator cares.

As Rand speculated, the Creator is like an errant gardener, planting worlds and allowing them to flourish or die on their own. He does not care whether they exist or not, he has already left the scene.

Trying to extrapolate what Rand can or cannot do by flimsy circular logic speculating what the Creator will or will not do is foolish. You do not know the limit of the Creator's powers or abilities. All we know about him is that he created the world, he sealed off the Dark One, and he has not intervened in world affairs since creation. Attempting to add to or take away from that is merely interjecting your personal opinion into what facts there are.

You say Rand will not be permitted to do so? Not permitted by whom? The absent Creator? Do you expect him to intervene and prevent Rand from doing so? Do you have any supporting evidence to back up your claim that he will not be permitted to do so? Your opinions on this matter are not fact, nor are they supportable from the books.

Personally I agree that Rand will not kill the Dark One, but it is by no means a certainty that he cannot do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias
The Taint was merely the touch of the Dark One, not the Dark One. A small trace of his passage, so to speak. It took the full evil of Shadar Logoth to divert away an infestimally small portion of Shai'tan's power... and Fain is merely a small fraction of the full power of Shadar Logoth.

Can you please provide some evidence backing up your claim that the taint was only and infestimally small portion of the Dark One's power? I'd be curious to see how this opinion of yours is quantifiable. How do you know how much of the Dark One's power was exerted in the taint?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias
And I object to the idea that Fain is outside the Pattern. Its a poor approximation of words for what his true status must be. He's not outside the Pattern, he's outside the control of the Wheel. His actions are still contained within the general framework of the Pattern; he responds to events the Pattern dictates, and the Pattern by necessity responds to his actions. The independent variable is that whatever plan the Pattern had for him is now gone, and he acts and reacts independently of the Wheel's guiding influence.

RJ's quote about Fain said nothing at all about the wheel, but it did mention the pattern.

Objection overruled.


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