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JSUCamel 12-02-2009 04:16 PM

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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 78813)
How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

Well, we know that LTT believed something had to touch the Dark One. Saidin did, and so Saidin was tainted.

What if Fain/Mordeth's power touches the Dark One?

Remember in Rand's wound, Fain's dagger's power is/was fighting against the DO's evil in the wound. I can't recall if the wound was ever healed, but I believe the wound was contained when the Asha'man and Aes Sedai set the two evils upon each other.

Would Fain's power cancel out the Dark One's?

And going even further with that idea, what if Fain/Mordeth's power actually destroys the Dark One, and Fain becomes imprisoned outside the Pattern... and Ages from now, is referred to as the Dark One?

Way out there, I know, but just a thought.

Mat is Better 12-02-2009 06:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79256)
It has never been implied the Forsaken are all knowing.

I'm referring to the fact that people have stated that because the forsaken, namely Moridin, don't know of a way to kill the DO, that it doesn't exist. I believe he can be killed. Again, I do not think that Rand alone can do it.

We'll probably never know because I don't think that is the direction RJ intended for the series to go and if it doesn't happen in the books, it is unlikely that RJ left information about it.

Ozymandias 12-02-2009 06:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 79297)
I don't think the Creator cares.

As Rand speculated, the Creator is like an errant gardener, planting worlds and allowing them to flourish or die on their own. He does not care whether they exist or not, he has already left the scene.

Your missing the point. Each world is a single flower in the garden, immaterial in and of itself. But the Dark One is a blight that spreads beyond the single flower, to the garden as a whole. He endangers every flower, the whole damn garden.

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Trying to extrapolate what Rand can or cannot do by flimsy circular logic speculating what the Creator will or will not do is foolish. You do not know the limit of the Creator's powers or abilities. All we know about him is that he created the world, he sealed off the Dark One, and he has not intervened in world affairs since creation. Attempting to add to or take away from that is merely interjecting your personal opinion into what facts there are.
There are two facts. One is that the Creator did not kill the Dark One. Whatever his motivations, he took the time to imprison, but not kill, Shai'tan. The other is that the Pattern has done nothing to kill him. The Creator is clearly incapable. He took the time to imprison, but not destroy? You can't argue apathy, because imprisonment is not apathetic... he actively strove to seal the guy away before embarking on his celestial gardening mission. Thats not opinion. Thats fact. He was not apathetic to begin with, whatever his position now.

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You say Rand will not be permitted to do so? Not permitted by whom? The absent Creator? Do you expect him to intervene and prevent Rand from doing so? Do you have any supporting evidence to back up your claim that he will not be permitted to do so? Your opinions on this matter are not fact, nor are they supportable from the books.
By the Wheel of Time. The Wheel controls everything. You might say it has a Pattern in mind. Many if not all of Rand's actions are predestined. By the Wheel. If Rand, a creature and tool of the Wheel, were able to kill the Dark One, then it stands to reason that the Wheel would have spun him out eons earlier to take care of business at some other time. Nothing makes this time special. Quite the opposite, this is one of 7 eras that are on repeat. Its the opposite of special, its old hat.

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Personally I agree that Rand will not kill the Dark One, but it is by no means a certainty that he cannot do so.
A tiny smear of logic dictates that he cannot do so.

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Can you please provide some evidence backing up your claim that the taint was only and infestimally small portion of the Dark One's power? I'd be curious to see how this opinion of yours is quantifiable. How do you know how much of the Dark One's power was exerted in the taint?
Well, lets see. For one, we know that the Dark One can but "touch" the world. Even at the height of his influence in the War of Power, it was still just a tiny spot for him to reach through. So yeah, its mere guesswork as to what portion of the Dark One was bound up in the Taint. But does it really make sense that he invested the greater portion of himself and his power in Tainting the Source on one world? And even if he did, Rand didn't destroy the Taint, he merely channeled it elsewhere from the Source, so it may still exist. Its likely, in fact.

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RJ's quote about Fain said nothing at all about the wheel, but it did mention the pattern.

Objection overruled.
Then RJ is wrong. He either misspoke, or he has completely destroyed his own philosophy. Fain is a thread in the Pattern. He was spun out, originally, by the Wheel. He still exists within the Pattern. Its impossible for him not to. He acts and reacts according to the actions of others. It is quite possible that the Wheel no longer has control over him; that due to his exposure to Shadar Logoth and the Dark One, all the ties that bind him to the greater plan have been shattered. But he unquestionably still moves within the framework of the Pattern.

Either way, if there is no evidence, then why should we do anything other than believe Ishamael? Of every character in-book, he is the most qualified to discuss the Dark One. As one of the foremost philosophers in history, and the Dark One's most favored and closest servant, he is in a position to know. If you are doubting him, then you also are delving in the realm of pure speculation, and abandoning logic besides.

The Creator had the opportunity to kill the Dark One and declined to. The Pattern has had innumberable opportunities to kill the Dark One and has declined to. Thus, neither of them are capable of it. Thus, neither is Rand. Or, alternatively, they both chose not to, and thus Rand will not be able to, either.

Besides, the Third Age must come again, and when it does, the Dark One has to exist. Thus, Rand cannot kill the Dark One.

Belazamon 12-02-2009 08:22 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79327)
There are two facts. One is that the Creator did not kill the Dark One. Whatever his motivations, he took the time to imprison, but not kill, Shai'tan. The other is that the Pattern has done nothing to kill him. The Creator is clearly incapable...

The Creator had the opportunity to kill the Dark One and declined to. The Pattern has had innumberable opportunities to kill the Dark One and has declined to. Thus, neither of them are capable of it. Thus, neither is Rand. Or, alternatively, they both chose not to, and thus Rand will not be able to, either.

Once again you're stating opinion as fact.

FACT: The Creator sealed the Dark One away rather than killing him.
OPINION: The Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One.

There may very well be some terribly inscrutable reason why the Creator would choose to imprison rather than destroy the Dark One. Just because you either can't think of one, or don't like any of the explanations that are offered, doesn't mean the possibility isn't there.

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79327)
Then RJ is wrong. He either misspoke, or he has completely destroyed his own philosophy.

Either that, or you're not interpreting it the way he meant you to. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79327)
Besides, the Third Age must come again, and when it does, the Dark One has to exist. Thus, Rand cannot kill the Dark One.

Unless, of course, this Age is different and RJ didn't want to give away the game. :D

Murphy 12-02-2009 09:42 PM

It's an interesting question as to why the Creator did not destroy the Dark One. I suppose he didn't destroy the Dark One because he wanted humanity to remember all that is good in life and all that is worth fighting for.

But yes, there is no was that Rand can kill the Dark One. Rand is apart of the Pattern, the Dark One is outside of the pattern and wholly transcendent of it. But then that brings up the question as to how a thing of the Pattern (Rand, Lews Therin) can seal the Dark One away as that implies effecting something outside of the Pattern.

Thinking about things like this, it's no wonder Elan Morin destroyed himself.

Ozymandias 12-02-2009 10:10 PM

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Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 79333)
Once again you're stating opinion as fact.

FACT: The Creator sealed the Dark One away rather than killing him.
OPINION: The Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One.

There may very well be some terribly inscrutable reason why the Creator would choose to imprison rather than destroy the Dark One. Just because you either can't think of one, or don't like any of the explanations that are offered, doesn't mean the possibility isn't there.

There are only two possible explanations. One is that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One. That explains why he is imprisoned and not killed. The other is that the Dark One is somehow vital to the cosmic machinery of Rand's universe, perhaps for the reasons Murphy laid out.

There is no other option. There just isn't. Lets rule out the latter option for a second. If the Dark One is not intrinsic to the universe as some basic force, then we have two more options. Again, that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One, or that he imprisoned him for a distinct reason. If the Dark One does not belong in Rand's universe, and the Creator was capable of killing him, he would have done so. There is only one reason for him to choose not to; because he wants the Dark One around for that inscrutable reason.

Either way, either the potential is there or it isn't. If it isn't, case closed; if the Creator couldn't, neither can Rand. If the potential to kill him is there, then he didn't kill him for a reason, meaning the Dark One fits into the cosmic plan somehow.

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Unless, of course, this Age is different and RJ didn't want to give away the game. :D
Doubtful.

I'm not stating opinion as fact. I'm taking the one fact we know; that the Creator did not kill the Dark One, and extrapolating the only two possibilities. And there are only two. Its black and white; he has enough power to kill the Dark One, or he doesn't. If the latter, Rand won't be able to either. If the former, we need a reason for why the Creator created a breachable prison instead of outright killing him. And the only conclusion to be reached there is that the Dark One plays a part in the universe, and thus that the Wheel will not allow Rand to kill him.

If you can name me a logical third choice, I'm open to suggestion. Or if you can point out a flaw in my logic. Otherwise, its the only conclusion we can reach.

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Originally Posted by Murphy
But then that brings up the question as to how a thing of the Pattern (Rand, Lews Therin) can seal the Dark One away as that implies effecting something outside of the Pattern.

Easy. Think of the Dark One's prison as keeping him OUT of the Pattern, as supposed to inside some space outside the Pattern. If the Prison is surrounding the Pattern, like a layer of lamination over a picture, then to drill through and allow the Dark One access is to drill out. And thus, patching the hole means replacing the lamination, which is touching upon the Pattern and this feasible for a Randlander to achieve.

Murphy 12-02-2009 10:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79360)
Easy. Think of the Dark One's prison as keeping him OUT of the Pattern, as supposed to inside some space outside the Pattern. If the Prison is surrounding the Pattern, like a layer of lamination over a picture, then to drill through and allow the Dark One access is to drill out. And thus, patching the hole means replacing the lamination, which is touching upon the Pattern and this feasible for a Randlander to achieve.

Hm, yes. But would this not make the Dark One's "prison" its self apart of the Pattern? If this is the case, the Dark One should be able to manipulate his "prison" himself seeing as he is wholly superior to the Pattern. I think.. well I'm just throwing out random ideas right now :P.

nameless 12-02-2009 10:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79360)
There are only two possible explanations. One is that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One. That explains why he is imprisoned and not killed. The other is that the Dark One is somehow vital to the cosmic machinery of Rand's universe, perhaps for the reasons Murphy laid out.

There is no other option. There just isn't. the potential is there or it isn't. If it isn't, case closed; if the Creator couldn't, neither can Rand. If the potential to kill him is there, then he didn't kill him for a reason, meaning the Dark One fits into the cosmic plan somehow.


...

If you can name me a logical third choice, I'm open to suggestion. Or if you can point out a flaw in my logic. Otherwise, its the only conclusion we can reach.

I can think of two off the top of my head.
1) The Creator is a pacifist and does not approve of killing for any reason, so he allowed the Dark One to live.
2) The Creator and the Dark One used to be friends and the Creator spared his life for sentimental reasons.

The first seems much more likely than the second, and they both seem pretty improbable compared to "the Creator's inneffable plan requires the presence of evil for the sake of free will" or some similar explanation, but even so you should probably take it easy with the whole "there is no other possible explantion" routine. There's ALWAYS another possible explanation.

Tercel 12-02-2009 10:57 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79360)
Then RJ is wrong.

:eek: You amuse me.

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There are only two possible explanations. One is that the Creator is incapable of killing the Dark One. That explains why he is imprisoned and not killed. The other is that the Dark One is somehow vital to the cosmic machinery of Rand's universe, perhaps for the reasons Murphy laid out. There is no other option. There just isn't.
Your 'logic' is ridiculous. There are many more options...

eg
1) The Creator is non-rational. We've had it hammered home through the series that the Dark One tends to be unpredictable by human standards, acting for inscrutable reasons. It's quite plausible that the Creator and the DO, insofar as they are non-human entities do not act according to what humans would understand as 'logic' or 'reasons'. Perhaps they are more like the wind and rain, natural forces acting out of non-rational principles, rather than having motivations and reasons like humans. The Creator creates worlds because that's what he does, he's a creative Force, and the DO seeks chaos and destruction because that's what he does, he's a destructive Force, but neither is rational agent in a human sense.

2) The Creator is insane. The Creator and DO do act with human-like motivations and reasons, but they're actually mentally insane. Really, in the World-Beyond, the Creator and the DO are inmates in an asylum and one created a universe and bound the other inside it. Bizarre but possible.

3) The Creator and DO are friends. Potentially one could kill the other, but they're actually cosmic buddies and have no interest in doing so.

4) The Creator is powerful enough to kill the Dark One, and an enemy of the Dark One. But the Creator is somewhat benevolent and doesn't really want to kill the Dark One (he's a pacifist, or doesn't like the death penalty, etc), so he just imprisons him as best he can. Most of the time it works, but sometimes the humans get carried away and start drilling holes in the DO's prision...

etc.

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I'm taking the one fact we know; that the Creator did not kill the Dark One, and extrapolating the only two possibilities. And there are only two. Its black and white; he has enough power to kill the Dark One, or he doesn't. If the latter, Rand won't be able to either. If the former, we need a reason for why the Creator created a breachable prison instead of outright killing him. And the only conclusion to be reached there is that the Dark One plays a part in the universe, and thus that the Wheel will not allow Rand to kill him.
Again ridiculous.

The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO. We have seen that there are different types of power in the series, and that the human-created evil of Shadar Logoth is unnaturally effective against the evil of the Dark One, far more so that the One Power (which, presumably is the Creator's power). It seems entirely plausible that the Creator does not have the right type of power at his disposal. He is locked in a dualistic ying-yang type situation with the Dark One where they are equal and opposite (chaos vs order, etc) and his power by its very natural is not the type of power that can truly kill the Dark One. However inventive human-kind, influenced by both the Creator and the Dark one, with part of each inside of them, can invent things such as the evil of Shadar Logoth, an Evil That Kills Evil... something neither the Creator nor DO ever expected or imagined perhaps...

I can imagine the Creator and the Dark One to be two cosmic beings who can touch the world and each other by virtue of the fact that they are cosmic beings. I can imagine the Creator to be under a self-imposed benevolent restriction not to interfere, while the DO would like to destroy the world. The Creator knows what the DO would like to do and did his best to block the DO's access to the world when he created it. I don't imagine the Creator to have "imprisioned" the Dark One in a cosmic sense, but rather imagine him putting barriers in place around his creation to stop the Dark One touching it. So I see the world as being protected from the DO, with the Creator and DO together outside it, rather than the DO being imprisoned in the world away from the Creator.

You seem to arbitrarily ignore/exclude this scenario in your 'logic'. But your 'logic' seems to mainly consist of asserting that the first two possibilities you can think of a are the only possibilities rather than any real careful thinking.

Belazamon 12-02-2009 11:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 79369)
You seem to arbitrarily ignore/exclude this scenario in your 'logic'. But your 'logic' seems to mainly consist of asserting that the first two possibilities you can think of a are the only possibilities rather than any real careful thinking.

Everything you posted, but mostly this. :D

1Powerslave 12-03-2009 04:43 AM

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Originally Posted by JSUCamel (Post 79300)
And going even further with that idea, what if Fain/Mordeth's power actually destroys the Dark One, and Fain becomes imprisoned outside the Pattern... and Ages from now, is referred to as the Dark One?

Way out there, I know, but just a thought.

I like this idea. The only problem I have with it is that Fain seems to be very tiny in power compared to the Dark One. But who knows, maybe the Shadar Logothic power can be drawn from the desperation of the whole world at some point in Tarmon Gaidon, and that that power would be enough to take over and dispatch the Dark One. In any case, a very nice idea, I wouldn't much mind if it went down like that. :)

Though I have an inkling feeling that this is something that has been asked and dispelled by a question to RJ.

Terez 12-03-2009 08:00 AM

Y'all might want to throw some more tags on this thread as it's hijacked. I already put as many as I can on it...

Bonzi77 12-03-2009 08:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 79369)

The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO. We have seen that there are different types of power in the series, and that the human-created evil of Shadar Logoth is unnaturally effective against the evil of the Dark One, far more so that the One Power (which, presumably is the Creator's power). It seems entirely plausible that the Creator does not have the right type of power at his disposal. He is locked in a dualistic ying-yang type situation with the Dark One where they are equal and opposite (chaos vs order, etc) and his power by its very natural is not the type of power that can truly kill the Dark One. However inventive human-kind, influenced by both the Creator and the Dark one, with part of each inside of them, can invent things such as the evil of Shadar Logoth, an Evil That Kills Evil... something neither the Creator nor DO ever expected or imagined perhaps...

That whole post was great, but this part in particular. And if this is true than maybe it is possible that Rand CAN kill the Dark One, either by using Fain somehow, or by commandeering the true power, or maybe even through his own strength in the One Power.

But if he can, that doesn't necessarily mean that he should. Remember, all Moridin said is that the idea of killing the Dark One is stupid. He didn't say why it was stupid. Maybe it's a stupid idea because it's impossible. Or maybe it's a stupid idea because the Dark One is a necessary evil and the pattern would somehow unravel without him. One of the running themes of this series is balance. The Dark One might be a required force to balance the creator. Death to balance life. Destruction to balance creation. The world doesn't work without that balance. Maybe existence and the continued turning of the Wheel requires the existence of both Creator and Dark One sealed outside the pattern.

Ozymandias 12-03-2009 04:29 PM

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Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 79369)
:eek: You amuse me.

Your 'logic' is ridiculous. There are many more options...

eg
1) The Creator is non-rational. We've had it hammered home through the series that the Dark One tends to be unpredictable by human standards, acting for inscrutable reasons. It's quite plausible that the Creator and the DO, insofar as they are non-human entities do not act according to what humans would understand as 'logic' or 'reasons'. Perhaps they are more like the wind and rain, natural forces acting out of non-rational principles, rather than having motivations and reasons like humans. The Creator creates worlds because that's what he does, he's a creative Force, and the DO seeks chaos and destruction because that's what he does, he's a destructive Force, but neither is rational agent in a human sense.

2) The Creator is insane. The Creator and DO do act with human-like motivations and reasons, but they're actually mentally insane. Really, in the World-Beyond, the Creator and the DO are inmates in an asylum and one created a universe and bound the other inside it. Bizarre but possible.

3) The Creator and DO are friends. Potentially one could kill the other, but they're actually cosmic buddies and have no interest in doing so.

4) The Creator is powerful enough to kill the Dark One, and an enemy of the Dark One. But the Creator is somewhat benevolent and doesn't really want to kill the Dark One (he's a pacifist, or doesn't like the death penalty, etc), so he just imprisons him as best he can. Most of the time it works, but sometimes the humans get carried away and start drilling holes in the DO's prision...


And you call this logic? I made an attempt. So far, your other options boil down to the Creator and Dark One being great friends, which beyond pure speculation, goes against just about everything RJ professed to believe about his universe (that there is sometimes black and white, evil and good, and not a shade of gray), which would strongly work against any idea that the Dark One and Creator are friends or anything but elemental forces that are polar opposites. Which is, in fact, what they are. #2 is calling the Creator insane. So much evidence for that. As for this little gem:

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Originally Posted by Tercel
We've had it hammered home through the series that the Dark One tends to be unpredictable by human standards, acting for inscrutable reasons

This has not been "hammered home" and never was. If your not intelligent enough to comprehend the concept of nihilism, then I'll excuse your ignorance on the matter, but far from being driven in that the Dark One works for inscrutable ends, he in fact works for a very easy goal to comprehend. The characters in the book generally fail to understand this, but we don't. Or perhaps all of us excluding you. He wants to destroy the Wheel of Time, because that is his nature. His human servants are predicatable in their actions because they want things all humans want; the Dark one wants something no human would want, and thus his motivations are completely foreign to human comprehension


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The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO.
The True Source > the True Power. If we assume (and I personally think this is a safe assumption) that the Creator can draw on the One Power to an unlimited degree (seeing as he is a being of unlimited power, being God) or even take the tack that the One Power is the Creator, in much the same way that the True Power is the Dark One, then the Creator has the power to defeat the Dark One.

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We have seen that there are different types of power in the series, and that the human-created evil of Shadar Logoth is unnaturally effective against the evil of the Dark One, far more so that the One Power (which, presumably is the Creator's power)
Again, I'm not totally sure this is the way things work. First, I would argue that the power concentrated in Shadar Logoth is far greater than that in Fain. Mordeth is just a seed; Shadar Logoth is a city full of hate, and it barely sufficed to get rid of the Taint, much less the Dark One. Second, I'm not precisely sure that this is how the Cleansing worked. As in, I don't think it was mix 1 and 2, and both go poof! In reading some of the Q&A's it seems like there was some other dynamic at work, too, which included that kind of negative opposition.

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It seems entirely plausible that the Creator does not have the right type of power at his disposal. He is locked in a dualistic ying-yang type situation with the Dark One where they are equal and opposite (chaos vs order, etc)
If they are equals, then he cannot kill the Dark One. Since Rand does not have access to power the Creator doesn't, he cannot kill the Dark One either.

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and his power by its very natural is not the type of power that can truly kill the Dark One. However inventive human-kind, influenced by both the Creator and the Dark one, with part of each inside of them, can invent things such as the evil of Shadar Logoth, an Evil That Kills Evil... something neither the Creator nor DO ever expected or imagined perhaps...
Which means Rand would have to become evil, as evil as Mashadar and Shadar Logoth, which would destroy itself and the world anyways before it could kill the Dark One, just as it did the first time.

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I can imagine the Creator to be under a self-imposed benevolent restriction not to interfere, while the DO would like to destroy the world.
Seems reasonable.

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The Creator knows what the DO would like to do and did his best to block the DO's access to the world when he created it. I don't imagine the Creator to have "imprisioned" the Dark One in a cosmic sense, but rather imagine him putting barriers in place around his creation to stop the Dark One touching it
So he put up barriers that can be breached? Seems unlikely. That someone as comparatively weak as Mierin can bore through something the ultimate power in the universe created? Its like saying a termite could dig a hole through a box made of a titanium-steel alloy. If it was made deliberately weak, out of wood, say, then its possible. But if the Creator made the prison as powerful as possible with his utmost energy, then no power short of that should be able to breach it.

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So I see the world as being protected from the DO, with the Creator and DO together outside it, rather than the DO being imprisoned in the world away from the Creator.

You seem to arbitrarily ignore/exclude this scenario in your 'logic'. But your 'logic' seems to mainly consist of asserting that the first two possibilities you can think of a are the only possibilities rather than any real careful thinking.
I am fully in agreement with that supposition. Far from ignoring it, I incorporate it. It all boils down to one fact. Either the Creator can destroy the Dark One, or can't. If he can, then he chose not to do so. If he can't, then I doubt any power on earth can do so.

It makes absolutely no sense to assume that the Creator can get rid of the Dark One but decided not to, because they're really cosmic super best friends having a little spat, or some ridiculous nonsense. If the Dark One does not belong in this universe, then the Creator would have gotten rid of him. Going back to the garden analogy, you don't plant a garden when you know there is bacteria in the soil that will kill everything you grow. I realize the Creator is supposed to be beyond human comprehension, but if he created the universe, it stands to reason he wants it to flourish. He may not care about individual worlds, but he doesn't create them in the assumption that they fail. Whether or not they do is immaterial to him, but his hope is that they all do well. The very act of Creation justifies this; you don't create in the hopes of destruction. Thus, he would not have Created in an atmosphere where he knew all his creations were doomed to failure.

Finally, lets end with some concluding thoughts. First off is this gem.

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Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.
Balefire is out as a weapon. In fact, through our repeated exposure to the massive power of the Choedan Kal, and this supporting quote, we can reasonably assume that to use the Power to destroy the Dark One would just as quickly destroy the world, thus ruling it out as an option.

Perhaps Fain can kill the Dark One. If he even wants to, his only desire seems to be killing Rand. But Rand cannot do it.

Belazamon 12-03-2009 04:47 PM

Ozy, you appear to be falling into the Felix Trapô. It's very nice that you have opinions, and it's very nice that they're strong opinions, but... well...

Ozymandias 12-03-2009 04:59 PM

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Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 79479)
Ozy, you appear to be falling into the Felix Trapô. It's very nice that you have opinions, and it's very nice that they're strong opinions, but... well...

If someone chooses to demean my logic as ridiculous, while simultaneously spouting off about how the Creator and Dark One are involved in this fantastically romantic homosexual affair, I feel little compunction in rudely disregarding that opinion, much as whoever that someone may have been (and its not always Tercel) derided mine.

Belazamon 12-03-2009 05:16 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79484)
spouting off about how the Creator and Dark One are involved in this fantastically romantic homosexual affair

Cool strawman. Does it come in "twig" too? :D

Putting aside any slights, perceived or real - the fact remains that there are other explanations that you simply don't agree with. "Rudely disregard" as you please, but it only weakens your argument to deal with them in such a fashion.

Ozymandias 12-03-2009 05:25 PM

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Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 79488)
Cool strawman. Does it come in "twig" too? :D

Putting aside any slights, perceived or real - the fact remains that there are other explanations that you simply don't agree with. "Rudely disregard" as you please, but it only weakens your argument to deal with them in such a fashion.

The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.

I'm dismissing their explanations as illogical or purely speculative. Their entire case is that I am arrogating my opinion to the position of fact. I'm saying I'm choosing the most reasonable option. Part of demonstrating that my option is the most reasonable, is reducing their options to a status of lesser reasonableness. Yeah, I think I did just make up a word.

There will always be opinions I, or you, or anyone, will disagree with. Its part of the human condition that there is no action that will always be considered good or bad. You might find a greater consensus for some actions one way or another, but there is always an outlier. Being "right" merely means having the solid weight of evidence and popular opinion behind you. Thus, degrading the opposition's opinion while strengthening your own.

Crispin's Crispian 12-03-2009 06:13 PM

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79490)
The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.

That's not the only alternative, though. Your gave your opinion on the other alternative--that if the Creator cannot destroy the Dark One, Rand certainly cannot.

But as Tercel pointed out, Shadar Logoth itself is an example of a human-created power that is not accessible to the Dark One or the Creator (so far as we know). What other powers might be accessible or produced by humans or beings inside the Pattern?

Arguments about whether Creator could have killed the Dark One are immaterial, because he already said:

"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

Unfortunately that doesn't answer the question, since he's staying away per his will, but also telling Rand only he has the power. Plus, "what must be done?" But in any case, it's clear that Rand has to do something, and he has or will have the power to do something that the Creator will not or cannot do.


Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozy
So he put up barriers that can be breached? Seems unlikely. That someone as comparatively weak as Mierin can bore through something the ultimate power in the universe created? Its like saying a termite could dig a hole through a box made of a titanium-steel alloy. If it was made deliberately weak, out of wood, say, then its possible. But if the Creator made the prison as powerful as possible with his utmost energy, then no power short of that should be able to breach it.

I don't understand, because Mierin did breach the prison (whatever it's nature). I can't tell: are you saying that the Creator did want the Dark One to have influence every few Ages? You said earlier that the Creator surely didn't want the Dark One mucking around with his creation--they are antitheses, after all. So why would be build a prison that a termite like Mierin could breach? Is he just not strong enough to stop humans from doing that?

What other things might he (or the Dark One) be too weak to stop?

nameless 12-03-2009 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79490)
The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.

I'm dismissing their explanations as illogical or purely speculative. Their entire case is that I am arrogating my opinion to the position of fact. I'm saying I'm choosing the most reasonable option. Part of demonstrating that my option is the most reasonable, is reducing their options to a status of lesser reasonableness. Yeah, I think I did just make up a word.

There will always be opinions I, or you, or anyone, will disagree with. Its part of the human condition that there is no action that will always be considered good or bad. You might find a greater consensus for some actions one way or another, but there is always an outlier. Being "right" merely means having the solid weight of evidence and popular opinion behind you. Thus, degrading the opposition's opinion while strengthening your own.

That was one alternative out of the four or five that have been mentioned so far. Focusing on a distorted version of a single aspect of the opposistion's arguments while ignoring all the others is pretty much the definition of "straw man."


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