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Belazamon 12-03-2009 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 79369)
1) The Creator is non-rational.

2) The Creator is insane.

3) The Creator and DO are friends.

4) ... the Creator is somewhat benevolent and doesn't really want to kill the Dark One (he's a pacifist, or doesn't like the death penalty, etc), so he just imprisons him as best he can.

[kinda 5)] The Creator may well have the wrong type of power to kill the DO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79490)
The alternative to my conclusion was that the Dark One and Creator are friends. Thats like saying Hitler and Moses would have been best buddies. Not a strawman, just a slight exaggeration.

As nameless points out, there were at least five different alternatives to your conclusion. You seem to have latched onto this one in particular, presumably because it's the most easily argued against.

Personally I think 1) and 2) are roughly equivalent for our purposes - if the Creator is ineffable to humanity, then by our standards he would be functionally "insane." It's only a failure of perspective, though. Regardless, if you allow the probability that such Mighty Cosmic Beings are probably Beyond Our Comprehension, then it's incredibly difficult to argue against the idea that we simply cannot comprehend why the Creator didn't kill the Dark One even though he could. This particular theory is, IMHO, not capable of being refuted with our current knowledge base.

3) is the one you seem to be using as a summation of all our arguments, and I would agree that it's the weakest, based on the whole "opposite but equal" theory. However, we can once again remove the all-too-human concept of "friendship" from the equation, and simply posit that the two are more along the lines of "forces of nature" - in other words, they have no interest whatsoever in "destroying" each other, but instead exist solely to fulfill their functions. The Creator creates things, the Dark One destroys things, these functions overlap/interfere with each other sometimes - that's just the way the cosmic world works.

4) and ersatz-5), I think, can also be approached as aspects of the same theory - perhaps it's as simple as the Creator creates, and isn't capable of destroying. Therefore, what could the Creator do to stop the Dark One if he can't destroy him? He could a) Create something to imprison him, or b) Create something that actually was capable of destroying him. Or my personal favorite, c) both.

Tercel 12-03-2009 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 79538)
However, we can once again remove the all-too-human concept of "friendship" from the equation, and simply posit that the two are more along the lines of "forces of nature" - in other words, they have no interest whatsoever in "destroying" each other, but instead exist solely to fulfill their functions. The Creator creates things, the Dark One destroys things, these functions overlap/interfere with each other sometimes - that's just the way the cosmic world works.

I think a variant of "the Creator and DO are friends" is highly defensible, if "friends" is understood to mean "anything short of mortal enemies". In the real world, people have different goals sometimes and different desires, but its only very very rarely that conflicting goals lead to being truly mortal enemies. Even people that hate each other rarely kill each other.

Perhaps the Creator and the DO are two among many Cosmic beings, or perhaps they are the only two. Either way, it seems reasonable that they might have some disagreements without being forced to be mortal enemies and kill one another. It's one thing to battle over the fate of a created world, using surrogates, it's quite another thing to attempt to destroy each other directly. The world could be a game for them, a contest, or perhaps they really do dislike each other but that dislike comes short of obliterating one another.

Personally, if I was one of only two Beings in the universe, I would feel a sense of kinship to the other. Even if I disagreed with the other's goals I wouldn't want to kill them and be alone. I would instead try to hammer out an agreement with them and reach a compromise we both found satisfactory. When I suggest the DO and the Creator are 'friends' I am really thinking of this sense of 'kinship' existing between the two entities even if they disagree and dislike each other.

Tercel 12-04-2009 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandius
But if the Creator made the prison as powerful as possible with his utmost energy, then no power short of that should be able to breach it.

But, of course, Miern was using the Creator's own power, ie the One Power... so yes, the Creator had imprisoned the DO well enough that nothing short of the Creator's own power could get him out.

I know you meant amount of power rather than type of power, but really there's not any hard evidence that the Creator could have made the bore harder to create by using 'more' of the power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 79500)
"I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL."

I find that quote fascinating... "I WILL [NOT]" not "I CAN [NOT]". It seems to imply it is a decision by the Creator, not necessarily an inability.

Personally I think the Creator bothering to speak to Rand is good evidence that the Creator is in fact a bit more interested in the world than some characters suppose. For example, Rand's Moridin-inspired belief that the Creator just goes on creating hundreds of worlds like flowers never weeping for those that die strikes me as pure unevidenced speculation. If the Creator cared that little, why bother to speak to Rand at all?

Quote:

But as Tercel pointed out, Shadar Logoth itself is an example of a human-created power that is not accessible to the Dark One or the Creator (so far as we know). What other powers might be accessible or produced by humans or beings inside the Pattern?
An interesting question, because BS said at a recent signing that Mordeth had deliberately sought out types of power that could help defeat the Dark One. Presumably the evil at Shadar Logoth represents one particular type of power, but Sanderson seemed to me to imply that Mordeth had also found others and/or others existed to be found. Even the Creator and the DO may have little inkling or understanding of these alternate powers that humans can tap.

Random thought... If human anti-DO evil resonates with and can destroy the DO's power, then could human anti-Creator goodness resonate with and destroy the Creator's power? eg could benevolent atheism such as the Enlightenment actually lead to the destruction of the One Power?

Robo-Hillbilly 12-04-2009 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 79538)
4) and ersatz-5), I think, can also be approached as aspects of the same theory - perhaps it's as simple as the Creator creates, and isn't capable of destroying. Therefore, what could the Creator do to stop the Dark One if he can't destroy him? He could a) Create something to imprison him, or b) Create something that actually was capable of destroying him. Or my personal favorite, c) both.


I agree the Creator is simply that a creator. He is not a destroyer. He has the power to create. Awesome power but with a specific purpose of creation. The DO is the destroyer.

The creator created the wheel and the DO desires to destroy it. Good vs. Evil and all that stuff. This is a "logical" view is it not?

The creator then creates the "prison" to keep the DO from destroying, to use the analogy, his
(pattern) garden. while the garden is fenced, the rabbit (DO) cannot eat the carrots.

Then someone or something bores a whole through the fence allowing the DO to send minions in to destroy the garden. The pattern made by the creator to protect his creation spins out the Dragon to oppose the destruction causing all this nauseous spinning.

During this vicious cycle repair, weaken break, repair. The pattern spins out Mordeth who gathers various evils in his study to oppose the DO and forms an evil the creator did not intend. RJ and Brandon have said Fain is in some way outside of the pattern. We also know the evil from Fain and the DO battle in Rand's wound. The evil of SL destroyed the taint of Sadin. This is something not in the past turns of the wheel.

This is the key to the DO's destruction.

I look at it like a chemical reaction. One evil by itself may be destructive and vicious but both fighting each other with such zeal the rest of the world is forgotten until both evils destroy each other. This reaction could be very slow and need both the DO and Fain sealed away, or it could be very violent like a nuke and be very destructive but end quickly.

Tercel 12-04-2009 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo-Hillbilly
The pattern spins out Mordeth who gathers various evils in his study to oppose the DO and forms an evil the creator did not intend. RJ and Brandon have said Fain is in some way outside of the pattern. We also know the evil from Fain and the DO battle in Rand's wound. The evil of SL destroyed the taint of Sadin. This is something not in the past turns of the wheel.

Also, something else that is potentially a "first" in the history of the Wheel is Rand's bond with Moridin. Moridin certainly wasn't expecting it, and isn't happy about it. We're given the impression in the series that Moridin understands and follows the desires of the Dark One well, so a fair implication is that if he wasn't expecting it and doesn't like it, then neither does the Dark One. Yet if this was something that had happened regularly in past turnings of the Wheel, we would expect the DO to be prepared for this and have prepared Moridin for this, be planning to use it against Rand, but in fact that does not seem to be the case.

And we have seen that the link allows Rand to access the True Power. If we stop and think about it, that's pretty "wow". The Creator's champion can now use the Dark One's own energies. Brandon made clear at the book signings that the Dark One did not give permission to Rand to use the True Power, the Dark One wasn't intending the Creator's champion to wield his power.

So I speculate that in this turning of the Wheel, not only is there loose a new Power (Shadar Logoth) that is different to anything the Dark One has encountered before, but also new is that the Creator's champion can now wield not only the Creator's power but the Dark One's power also.

Oh, and let's not forget that the new Power of Shadar Logoth is now sitting inside of a person whom the Dark One has personally touched with his own power, and who is thus -in Moiraine's estimation at least- something "more" than merely the combination of Mordeth and a DO-touched darkfriend. The power of SL by itself was enough to annihilate the DO's power tainting Saidin, but if Fain is something even "more" than that, as a result of the DO's power in him, yet another new evil Power, what can he do?

So, in my estimation, in this Age there are three new types of Power that the Dark One has never faced before...

Rahvin571 12-04-2009 05:25 AM

Hey everyone.

I'd like to propose another option I haven't really seen so far. It is sort of a variation of the thought that the Creator can kill the Dark One, but doesn't.

I don't buy the logic that because the DO and the Creator are equal they cannot harm each other. Picture this: you clone yourself. Now you have someone who is exactly your equal. Now let's say the two of you decide to fight each other. There are 4 possible outcomes.

1) You and Clone-You break off/don't start the fight. No one gets hurt.

2) You win!

3) Clone-You wins.

4) Both parties lose. Maybe you both gave each other fatal wounds or something.


The Creator's option's boil into 2 separate groups. There's the 1st option in which no one is harmed. I think that this is the status quo - the Creator isn't interfering because he doesn't want get in a fight that could have dire outcomes. It's easier (and much different!) to try and wall up your creations (as imperfect as walls may be) than to actively hunt down and kill someone who wants to ruin your garden.

Choosing this option saves the Creator from having to perform one of the group 2 actions - picking a fight. If the DO and the Creator really are equal, there isn't any way of telling who would win. Even if the Creator does have more cards than the DO does, its possible the outcome isn't set in stone.
Not to make the Creator out to be too much of a coward, but why risk death (the end of all new life) just to save a garden? New ones can always be made. Isn't that sort of like Rand's revelation at the end of tGS? It's better to have loved and lost than to never have loved at all? The Creator creates a universe. Billions live, love, die. The DO finally breaks free and kills everything. Creator starts over and billions more get to love. Repeat.

The other fighting option is option 4. Maybe if the DO and the Creator fought they would both die. How would that affect the worlds? I'm guessing the it wouldn't be very good... Besides, I'm of the opinion that the DO and the Creator, opposites like they are, aren't equally matched Yin-Yang style. I venture that they're more like the Osan'gar and the Aran'gar. They are weapons for the opposite hand, but every fight with them ultimately ends up with both participants lying dead.

Maybe the reasons the Creator doesn't want to kill off the DO are that he doesn't want to die and that he doesn't want to stop his source of life.


Wow... that became really long.

Yuri33 12-04-2009 05:47 AM

Everyone is humanizing the Creator too much. The DO is humanized as well, but there's much more evidence to support that view than there is for the Creator.

To me, the Creator caring about concepts like winning and killing and destroying just don't fit properly. Boiled down, here's what I believe we know about the Creator.

1. Creator created the Pattern and imprisoned the DO at the moment of creation.

2. Status quo = DO continuing to be imprisoned.

3. Creator intends to keep the status quo for all time.

4. The Creator "WILL TAKE NO PART"

And that's it. Whether anything else happens is up to the "CHOSEN ONE...IF HE WILL."

Whether we believe the Creator is sympathetic or suffers while he watches all this play out turn after turn or not becomes irrelevant, and frankly such emotions and motivations are better assigned to the humans that are part of the Pattern rather than the Creator who is not.

1Powerslave 12-04-2009 08:28 AM

Why the Dark One haven't killed the Creator and vice verse.
 
It could be as simple as Yin Yang.

1. The Dark One kills the Creator.
Consequence: He will after some time have destroyed all that the Creator ever created while he lived. Nothing more is left in the universe. The Dark One has nothing left to destroy. Nothing left but himself.

Yeah, it's a sort of extrapolation on the previous ideas about these entities exists to fulfill a purpose, the Dark One destroys, that is all he is. Basically.

2. The Creator kills the Dark One.
Consequence: The Creator will continue to create worlds, but now unhindered. His purpose is to create worlds, he cannot stop. The number of worlds will grow too many. The flowers in the garden will become too many for flowers to grow. They will fight amongst themselves for nurishment, and none will get enough, they will all die. And when they are all dead, the garden will be totally infertile.

So the Dark One keeps the garden fertile. Keeps the need for creation up.

Yin Yang:
Quote:

the concept of yin yang ([yin simplified Chinese: 阴; traditional Chinese: 陰; pinyin: yīn] [yang - simplified Chinese: 阳; traditional Chinese: 陽; pinyin: yng] Korean: eum-yang; Vietnamese: m Dương; often referred to in the west as yin and yang) is used to describe how seemingly disjunct or opposing forces are interconnected and interdependent in the natural world, giving rise to each other in turn. The concept lies at the heart of many branches of classical Chinese science and philosophy, as well as being a primary guideline of traditional Chinese medicine,[1] and a central principle of different forms of Chinese martial arts and exercise, such as baguazhang, taijiquan, and qigong. Many natural dualities e.g. dark and light, female and male, low and high are viewed in Chinese thought as manifestations of yin and yang. "Yin means dark and cold, while Yang means bright and hot. The idea of Yin-Yang originated from the ancient Chinese philosophy of Fu Xi (伏羲)." According to the philosophy, yin and yang are complementary opposites within a greater whole. Everything has both yin and yang aspects, which constantly interact, never existing in absolute stasis. Compare wuji. Yin and yang is symbolized by various forms of the Taijitu. It is commonly believed (especially in the West) that yin and yang correspond to "good" and "evil"; however, this was not an aspect included in ancient forms of the philosophy. The idea of yin and yang having a "moral" aspect was originated by the Confucian school (most notably Dong Zhongshu) around the second century BCE[2].
-- Further reading in that Wikipedia article encounters more similarities with WoT.



Yin Yang. I.e. the Dark One and the Creator are firmly connected, one cannot exist without the other. Etc.



Obviously RJ has used Yin Yang in a lot of aspects in the books. The Ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, male and femal half of the Source, balance in the Pattern (not good winning it completely), it is not a stretch that the Dark One and the Creator's relationship may be defined loosely around Yin and Yang. Course it is not a complete given until it is stated outright.

Tree Brother 12-04-2009 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 79569)
Also, something else that is potentially a "first" in the history of the Wheel is Rand's bond with Moridin. Moridin certainly wasn't expecting it, and isn't happy about it. We're given the impression in the series that Moridin understands and follows the desires of the Dark One well, so a fair implication is that if he wasn't expecting it and doesn't like it, then neither does the Dark One. Yet if this was something that had happened regularly in past turnings of the Wheel, we would expect the DO to be prepared for this and have prepared Moridin for this, be planning to use it against Rand, but in fact that does not seem to be the case.

There are many mentions in these books, that turning the Creator's champion is desireable, that maybe the DO even wants Rand as Nae'blis. So giving Rand the DO's power, and corrupting him in that fashion doesn't seem out of line. That could be one of the DO's goals, whether he tells his minions or not.

Bonzi77 12-04-2009 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Powerslave (Post 79586)
Yin Yang. I.e. the Dark One and the Creator are firmly connected, one cannot exist without the other. Etc.

Which goes with what I said earlier. Maybe Rand CAN kill the Dark One. But maybe he shouldn't.

bluejam 12-04-2009 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozymandias (Post 79291)
Thats a complete strawman argument. We know the Wheel is capable of turning out ta'veren at will to correct flaws in the Pattern. Thus, if the Pattern can produce a thread capable of destroying the Dark One completely, it can do so at will. Logically, if it was possible, it would have done so as soon as possible. We don't need to know how many times the Wheel has turned. It only needs to turn 1/7th of its first full rotation in order to produce an individual with the capability to kill the Dark One. Thats just fact. To assume that the Wheel can produce a person who can kill the Dark One and has not done so indicates that the Dark One plays some vital role in the workings of the universe, and therefore that the Wheel will not permit the Dark One to be killed. Its in inescapable logical bind. Which brings me to my next point

The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.

Hence why the heroes of the horn sometimes fight on the other side, the pattern is neutral, the Creator doesn't want the DO gone, it'd destroy the neutrality.

So you're right I guess, if Rand were to try and kill the DO the Pattern would weave in ways to stop him, but since Fain has been said to be outside the pattern, you never know.

GonzoTheGreat 12-04-2009 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluejam (Post 79620)
The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.

I think that's a mistaken view of what ta'veren are about.

It is true that the random ta'veren effects seem to be neutral. However, the non-random ones are all geared towards helping the Light, as far as I remember.

I can't think of any ta'veren effect involving one of the main characters which was slanted towards the Shadow.
The closest I can think of is Rand allowing Elza to serve him, and that should be credited more to Verin and Min than to his ta'verenness, it seems.

Belazamon 12-04-2009 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 79630)
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluejam (Post 79620)
The ta'veren are there to keep neutrality, not to make the Light win.

I think that's a mistaken view of what ta'veren are about.

No, I think he's absolutely correct. From the BWB:
Quote:

The Wheel of Time turns, and ages come and go, leaving memories that become legend. Legend fades to myth, and even myth is long forgotten when the age that gave it birth comes again. So begins each saga within the World of the Wheel, a universe in which the major controlling factor is the Wheel of Time and the Great Pattern it spins. A pattern in which light and dark, good and evil, male and female, and life and death struggle for balance within the weave of destiny...

The more change needed to bring the Great Pattern into balance, the more ta'veren spun out into the world.
I think people tend to get a little too wrapped-up in the good vs. evil dichotomy, and go the more traditional epic-fantasy route that Good Must Prevail. That's not how this world works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gonzo (Post 79630)
It is true that the random ta'veren effects seem to be neutral. However, the non-random ones are all geared towards helping the Light, as far as I remember.

That's because the Dark One's influence is becoming too strong and direct. Duh. :D

bluejam 12-04-2009 03:17 PM

Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.

So any chances of Rand or anyone killing the DO would be nil because the Pattern would make sure it doesn't happen.

But this is why I think this Age is different, and that Fain is the key to something different happening.

Quote:

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?
RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.
So Fain is actually a wildcard that is not controlled by the Pattern, or at least not fully, even the Forsaken are controlled by the Pattern, this is what makes the DO's job so tough, when he tries to get out, the Pattern makes sure it doesn't happen.

More Q/A's that are relevant:

Quote:

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.
Quote:

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?
Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.
This is also why sometimes the Heroes have fought on the other side, there is no good or evil in the Pattern, and when it does start getting out of whack the Pattern weaves it through Heroes and ta'veren to bring it back to the middle.

halo6819 12-04-2009 03:55 PM

my two cents
 
probably not a great place for my first post but here it goes.

It is possible that the creator has the power to kill the DO but he cant because he is THE CREATOR. like in sandersons mistborn, ruin could only destroy and preservation preserve, but neither could create because that wasnt the scope of either of there powers.

So the Creator can create the world, pattern, everything, but he can not destroy anything as it is not within his scope of powers. He can however create a prison, because well its creation.

sorry if this point was brought up before, i could only read so much sniping back and forth :D

Crispin's Crispian 12-04-2009 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluejam (Post 79664)
Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.

So any chances of Rand or anyone killing the DO would be nil because the Pattern would make sure it doesn't happen.

Why then did the Creator seal the DO away from the Pattern? The DO is throwing the balance off, and since the Creator can't counterbalance the DO, things are messed up.

This vaunted "balance" doesn't include the Creator and the DO, only humans. Otherwise the DO would never have been completely sealed away. Unless you're suggesting again that the Creator deliberately made the prison breachable by humans.

Belazamon 12-04-2009 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluejam (Post 79664)
Yes, everything about the Pattern is neutral, when things get out of whack the Pattern pulls threads to make sure it comes back to the middle.

The Creator does not want the DO gone, so as such Rand's job is not to kill the DO, but to seal him again because evil is getting out of whack and needs balanced.

This, I don't necessarily agree with. The Pattern seems perfectly capable of balancing good and evil without the much-greater outside influence of the Dark One. It's not as though His touch is required for bad things to happen in the Pattern - see Mordeth, most of the Chosen before the Bore was opened, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by halo6819 (Post 79668)
So the Creator can create the world, pattern, everything, but he can not destroy anything as it is not within his scope of powers. He can however create a prison, because well its creation.

sorry if this point was brought up before, i could only read so much sniping back and forth :D

Yeah, I brought it up in one of my posts, but as it's my favorite of all the theories, I'll give you a pass on that one. :D

bluejam 12-04-2009 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 79675)
Why then did the Creator seal the DO away from the Pattern? The DO is throwing the balance off, and since the Creator can't counterbalance the DO, things are messed up.

This vaunted "balance" doesn't include the Creator and the DO, only humans. Otherwise the DO would never have been completely sealed away. Unless you're suggesting again that the Creator deliberately made the prison breachable by humans.

I guess I should have prefaced my post by saying I'm going under the assumption the Creator really is an all-knowing all-powerful God. In that case the Creator would have to know that whatever was keeping this world separated from Shai'tan's prison could be drilled into, he allegedly made it afterall.

We really don't know enough about either, but there needs to be an evil to balance out the good. There's no reason to create Shai'tan in the first place if there didn't need to be.

Also Bela, I was always under the impression that there weren't any Chosen before they felt the True Power and drilled into it, is that wrong? It doesn't really matter, the belief was there I think, just wondering.

Edit: I was also under the impression that the Mordeth evil was an ancient evil, but an evil that was born out of a way of destroying Shai'tan, in which case it never would have existed without a Dark One there to begin with.

Belazamon 12-04-2009 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluejam (Post 79686)
Also Bela, I was always under the impression that there weren't any Chosen before they felt the True Power and drilled into it, is that wrong? It doesn't really matter, the belief was there I think, just wondering.

I was actually just referring to the fact that they were awful, awful people long before they met the Great Lord. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluejam (Post 79686)
Edit: I was also under the impression that the Mordeth evil was an ancient evil, but an evil that was born out of a way of destroying Shai'tan, in which case it never would have existed without a Dark One there to begin with.

If the Dark One hadn't existed to be a focal point for Aridhol's suspicion and hate, something else certainly would have been.

bluejam 12-04-2009 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 79675)
Why then did the Creator seal the DO away from the Pattern? The DO is throwing the balance off, and since the Creator can't counterbalance the DO, things are messed up.

This vaunted "balance" doesn't include the Creator and the DO, only humans. Otherwise the DO would never have been completely sealed away. Unless you're suggesting again that the Creator deliberately made the prison breachable by humans.

Okay, I had more time to try and understand this post.

I mainly posted because a lot of people think the Creator, ta'veren, the Pattern, Wheel, etc are entities of Good, when they aren't.

Humans associate the Creator to Light to Good, and Shai'tan to Shadow to Evil, I don't want to label them as anything, but if I had to I think Creation vs Destruction is better to describe them.

Also I never said the Pattern included the Creator and Shai'tan, they're obviously outside the Pattern, I'm just going by the knowledge that the Creator made Shai'tan for there to be a counterbalance in his creation, it may be that Shai'tan is an ancient evil like Mordeth turned True Power and imprisoned by humans in some T'A'R-like world in a previous age, we don't know but I'm going by the assumed knowledge of the humans in the book, which RJ has said many times don't believe everything people believe in.


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