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Terez 11-29-2009 03:44 AM

Can Rand do it?
 
This is new—or, at least, it's not something that Rand seems to have considered since The Dragon Reborn, when he thought he killed the Dark One:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
"It is not time for us to fight," Moridin said, waving a hand at Rand. "Go. Leave me in peace. I do not know what would happen to us if we killed one another. The Great Lord will have you soon enough. His victory is assured."

"He has failed before and will fail again," Rand said. "I will defeat him."

Moridin laughed again, the same heartless laugh as before. "Perhaps you will," he said. "But do you think that matters? Consider it. The Wheel turns, time and time again. Over and over the Ages turn, and men fight the Great Lord. But someday, he will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop.

"That is why his victory is assured. I think it will be this Age, but if not, then in another. When you are victorious, it only leads to another battle. When he is victorious, all things will end. Can you not see that there is no hope for you?"

"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

He laughed again, and this time there was joy in it. True pleasure.

Rand stood. Moridin eyed him warily, but did not get up.

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

Rand felt a flash of anger, but fought it down. He would not be goaded. "We shall see."


When Rand wakes up, he says the same thing to Min, though he allows here that Destroying the Dark One might not be possible:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
"Ishamael lives," Rand said.

She snapped her eyes open. "What?" Just when she was beginning to feel comfortable!

"I visited him in the World of Dreams," Rand said. "And before you ask, no. It wasn't just a nightmare and it wasn't madness. It was real, and I can't explain how I know. You will just have to trust me."

"Ishamael," she whispered. "You killed him!"

"Yes," Rand said. "In the Stone of Tear. He has returned, bearing a new face and a new name, but it is him. We should have realized it would happen; the Dark One won't abandon such useful tools without a fight. He can reach beyond the grave."

"Then how can we win? If everyone we kill just comes back again. . . ."

"Balefire," Rand said. "It will kill them for good."

"Cadsuane said—"

"I don't care
what Cadsuane said," he snarled. "She is my advisor, and she gives advice. Only advice. I am the Dragon Reborn, and I will decide how we fight." He stopped, taking a deep breath. "Anyway, it doesn't matter if the Forsaken return, it doesn't matter who or what the Dark One sends at us. In the end, I will destroy him, if possible. If not, then I will at least seal him away so tightly that the world can forget him."

He glanced down at her. "For that . . . I need the voice, Min. Lews Therin knows things. Or . . . or I
know things. Whichever it is, the knowledge is there. In a way, the Dark One's own taint will destroy him, for it is what gave me access to Lews Therin."



The only argument we've had against Rand being able to actually kill the Dark One has so far been this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Marcon Interview Memorial Weekend 2001

Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his Age that makes it special?

RJ: No...every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other Turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.


If we just had the answer from RJ, out of context, it would be easier to argue around, but in this context, it's hard. Very hard.

But Rand is all of a sudden claiming that he's going to do it. That seems.....weird, if it's not actually going to happen. Then, we have RJ saying something that seems to contradict the previous quote (to some - I've seen it argued before):
Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Wotmania/Dragonmount Q&A - 9 December 2002

Q: Has the Padan Fain/Mordeth character been present in previous Ages, or is he unique to this particular Age?


Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
RJ: He is unique to this particular Age. A very unique fellow, indeed. In some ways, you might say he has unwittingly side-stepped the Pattern.


Okay, so...then we have the fact that Fain has for a long time been everyone's favorite to become a Gollum-type character (link for those who haven't read or seen Lord of the Rings). Obviously it's not an exact parallel, since we're dealing with different powers here. Gollum was used to destroy the Ring; the popular theory on Fain goes that he will somehow be used to seal up the Dark One.

But what if he could be used to destroy the Dark One?
Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
CHAPTER: 22 - The Last that Could Be Done

She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.

She?
Rand asked.

The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.


Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse. To hear Lews Therin agreeing. . . .

What do we do after that?
Rand asked.

We die. You promised we could die!


Only if we defeat the Dark One
, Rand said. You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death.

Yes . . . nothing
, Lews Therin said. That would be nice. No pain, no regret. Nothing.

Rand felt a chill. If Lews Therin began to think that way . . . No
, Rand said, it wouldn't be nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.

Lews Therin began to weep.

Lews Therin!
Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work
, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

Yes, but what do we do differently?
Rand thought.

Silence. Rand sat for a moment, then slid off of Tai'daishar and let the nervous groom lead him away. The rest of the Maidens were coming through the large gateway, Bashere and Narishma taking the rear. Rand didn't wait for them, though he noticed Deira Bashere—Davram Bashere's wife—standing outside the Traveling ground. The tall, statuesque woman had dark hair with lines of white at the temples. She gave Rand a measuring look. What would she do if Bashere died in Rand's service? Would she continue to follow, or would she lead the troops away, back to Saldaea? She was as strong of will as her husband. Perhaps more so.

Rand passed her with a nod and a smile and walked through the evening camp toward the manor house. So Lews Therin did not know how to seal the Dark One's prison. What good was the voice then? Burn him, but he had been one of Rand's few hopes!


We know that the evil of Shadar Logoth is opposed to the evil of the Shadow in a way that made it possible for Rand to destroy the taint. Could Fain be used to destroy the Dark One in a similar way?

Rand has been hoping all this time that Lews Therin would know something about how to seal up the Dark One, perhaps ironically since he knew that Lews Therin botched it.

We know from Fel's logic that it can be done, and has been before, but Fel seems to doubt for some reason that the Dragon Reborn can do it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Lord of Chaos

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
CHAPTER: 18 - A Taste of Solitude

"What do you mean it can’t be the Last Battle?" Rand tried to keep his voice smooth. Herid always came to the point; you just had to prod him toward it.

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see. . . " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

"Why? Maybe the next time they’ll drill through the patch. Maybe that’s how they could do it the last time—drill into what the Creator made, I mean—maybe they drilled the Bore through a patch and we just don’t know."

Herid shook his head. For a moment he stared at his pipe, once more realizing it was unlit, and Rand thought he might have to recall him again, but instead Herid blinked and went on. "Someone had to make it sometime. For the first time, that is. Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One’s prison with a hole and patch to begin." His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion. "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?" He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. "Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole – an Age, at least – that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder. . ." He peered at his notes and scratched his head, then seemed startled to find he used the hand holding the pen. There was a smudge of ink in his hair. "Any Age where seals weaken must remember the Dark One eventually, because they will have to face him and wall him up again." Sticking his pipe back between his teeth, he tried to make another note without dipping the pen.

"Unless the Dark One breaks free," Rand said quietly. "To break the Wheel of Time, and remake Time and the world in his own image."

"There is that." Herid shrugged, frowning at the pen. Finally he thought of the inkpot. "I don’t suppose there’s much you or I can do about it. Why don’t you come study here with me? I don’t suppose Tarmon Gai’don will happen tomorrow, and it would be as good a use of your time as—"

"Is there any reason you can think of to break the seals?"

Herid’s eyebrows shot up. "Break the seals? Break the seals? Why would anyone but a madman want to do that? Can they even be broken? I seem to remember reading somewhere they can’t, but I don’t recall now that it said why. What made you think of a thing like that?"

"I don’t know," Rand sighed. In the back of his head Lews Therin was chanting. Break the seals. Break the seals, and end it. Let me die forever.


Interesting how, from here to The Gathering Storm, breaking the seals is, in Rand's mind, a way to end it all and die forever (see the previous book quote). And of course, Fel changed his mind later about breaking the seals, hence the note referenced in the previous quote—you have to clear the rubble before you can build.

That wasn't the only time in The Gathering Storm that Rand mentioned killing the Dark One. Here's another:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
CHAPTER: 44 - Scents Unknown

"And Lan?" Nynaeve asked.

"His attack will be well placed." Rand nodded. "He will draw my enemies' attention to Malkier and the Gap, and it will make them think that I am there. Shadowspawn can't move through gateways, so they can't move as quickly as I can. By the time they've engaged Lan, I'll be past them and attacking directly at the Dark One's heart.

"I don't plan to abandon the southern lands, not at all. When the Trollocs punch through the Gap, they will break up into fists to invade. That's when my forces will hit them, led by Bashere, Traveling by gateway to strike at each group of Trollocs from the sides or behind. That way, we can pick the best battlefields to suit our needs."

"Rand," Nynaeve said, her anger fading to horror. "Lan will die!"

"Then who am I to deny him that?" Rand said. "We all deserve the chance to find peace."

Nynaeve found her mouth hanging open. He actually believed that! Or he was convincing himself to believe it, at least.

"My duty is to kill The Dark One," Rand said, as if to himself. "I kill him, then I die. That is all."

"But—"

"That is enough, Nynaeve." Rand spoke softly in that dangerous voice of his. He would not be pressed further.


And another:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 44 - Scents Unknown

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
"Return to your masters inside of their box," Rand said, voice under control again. "You are to give them a message for me."

"What message, Lord Rand?"

Rand hesitated, then slipped the access key back in its place. "Tell them that it will not be long before the Dragon Reborn rides to battle at Shayol Ghul. If they wish to return to their posts with honor, I will provide them with transport back to the Blight. Otherwise, they can remain here, hiding. Let them explain to their children and grandchildren why they
were hundreds of leagues away from their posts when the Dark One was slain and the prophecies fulfilled."

So, this isn't like my pet theory or anything, but I figured it deserved a thread of its own. The sense of what, exactly, the ending will be, definitely changed in this book. And, as Verin says, it might not be anything like Rand assumes:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
CHAPTER: 39 - A Visit from Verin Sedai

"I compliment you on what you've done here, Egwene," Verin said. "I've followed some little of the foolishness going on between the Aes Sedai factions, though I decided not to get involved personally. It was more important to continue my research and keep an eye on young al'Thor. He's a fiery one, I must say. I worry about the lad. I'm not certain he understands how the Great Lord works. Not all evil is as . . . obvious as the Chosen. The Forsaken, as you'd call them."

"Obvious?" Egwene said. "The Forsaken?"

"Well, by comparison." Verin smiled and warmed her hands on her cup of tea. "The Chosen are like a bunch of squabbling children, each trying to scream the loudest and attract their father's attention. It's easy to determine what they
want: Power over the other children, proof that they are the most important. I'm convinced that it isn't intelligence, craftiness, or skill that makes one Chosen—though of course, those things are important. No, I believe it is selfishness the Great Lord seeks in his greatest leaders."

Egwene frowned. Were they really having a quiet chat about the Forsaken?
"Why would he choose that quality?"

"It makes them predictable. A tool you can depend upon to act as expected is far more valuable than one you cannot understand. Or perhaps because when they struggle against one another, it makes only the strong ones survive. I don't know, honestly. The Chosen are predictable, but the Great Lord is anything but. Even after decades of study, I can't be certain exactly what he wants or why he wants it. I only know that this battle isn't being fought the way that al'Thor assumes it will be."


Terez 11-29-2009 04:14 AM

I'm going to posit that the person at Macron International asked the wrong question. There is nothing special about this Age, but by the time it gets to the Last Battle, the Age will be pretty much over with.

I also forgot to add an RJ quote about his thoughts on circular vs linear time:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
CNN Chat 12 December 2000

Chat moderator: How did you develop the idea for the Wheel of Time saga, and where did you get the name?

RJ: The name comes out of Hindu mythology, where there is a belief that time is a wheel. Many older cultures believe that time is cyclic, that it repeats. In fact, I believe the best thing the ancient Greeks gave us was (the idea) that time was linear and change was possible.


greatwolf 11-29-2009 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tereztheterrible (Post 78546)
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2]This is new—or, at least, it's not something that Rand seems to have considered since The Dragon Reborn, when he thought he killed the Dark One:

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."


You might want to ask yourself whose idea this is Terez, Rand's, LT's or Moridin's? Or even worse a sort of combination.

The lines between the three have been terribly blurred in tGS and if there's any combination that can kill the DO it would be Moridin +_DR.

That said though, I don't expect it to happen.

GonzoTheGreat 11-29-2009 06:42 AM

I don't think it is Moridin's idea. If he had even thought that it might have been possible, then he wouldn't have gone over.

Terez 11-29-2009 07:20 AM

Yeah it seems pretty clear that Moridin doesn't think it's possible. He was goading Rand with the 'stupidity' comment, but one thing that has been shown time and again is that Moridin tends to be honest even when he's goading. His pride won't allow anything less.

greatwolf 11-29-2009 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 78563)
I don't think it is Moridin's idea. If he had even thought that it might have been possible, then he wouldn't have gone over.

Well let's look for the curtains then.

The idea of killing anyone is sort of the way Moridin would think. He might not himself consider killing the DO, but killing is his thing.

LT from the little we know, likely wouldn't consider killing the DO either. He's not really into killing, and he never tried in the aol.

But Rand has the liberty of considering the DO killable. He's never met the guy, and if you add to that Moridin's quiet blood thirstiness, well you get quite a mix.

As I said before, I don't beleive he can.

GonzoTheGreat 11-29-2009 08:14 AM

At the end of TEOTW, Rand sort of accidentally blundered into a situation where he thought that he was killing the DO. He was wrong, but he definitely tried. And failed, because he did not know enough.
At the end of TGH, Rand sort of accidentally blundered into a situation where he thought that he was killing the DO. He was wrong, but he definitely tried. And failed, because he did not know enough.
At the end of TDR, Rand sort of accidentally blundered into a situation where he thought that he was killing the DO. He was wrong, but he definitely tried. And succeeded, sort of, though it wasn't the DO he killed.

With that kind of history, it is not too much of a stretch to think that he wants to do a proper job, now that he can finally plan things a bit in advance.

greatwolf 11-29-2009 11:31 AM

Exactly Gonzo. Rand tried killing the DO several times and by now you'd think he'll be considering that maybe the DO isn't really "killable" at all. But his conviction seems stronger than ever now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
"It is not time for us to fight," Moridin said, waving a hand at Rand. "Go. Leave me in peace. I do not know what would happen to us if we killed one another. The Great Lord will have you soon enough. His victory is assured."

"He has failed before and will fail again," Rand said. "I will defeat him."

Moridin laughed again, the same heartless laugh as before. "Perhaps you will," he said. "But do you think that matters? Consider it. The Wheel turns, time and time again. Over and over the Ages turn, and men fight the Great Lord. But someday, he will win, and when he does, the Wheel will stop.

"That is why his victory is assured. I think it will be this Age, but if not, then in another. When you are victorious, it only leads to another battle. When he is victorious, all things will end. Can you not see that there is no hope for you?"

"Is that what made you turn to his side?" Rand asked. "You were always so full of thoughts, Elan. Your logic destroyed you, didn't it?"

"There is no path to victory," Moridin said. "The only path is to follow the Great Lord and rule for a time before all things end. The others are fools. They look for grand rewards in the eternities, but there will be no eternities. Only the now, the last days."

He laughed again, and this time there was joy in it. True pleasure.

Rand stood. Moridin eyed him warily, but did not get up.

"There is a way to win, Moridin," Rand said. "I mean to kill him. Slay the Dark One. Let the Wheel turn without his constant taint."

Moridin gave no reaction. He was still staring at the flames. "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here, I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself. I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

So Rand uncharacteristically calls him Elan as LT might have done. Was he really thinking his thoughts or LT's? Or a mix of both? Or of the three? I can't say for sure but I suspect its a mix of the three.

Davian93 11-29-2009 11:34 AM

Rand and LTT (the memories) are integrated in TAR...just as they are at the end of the book. Rand should have full access to his previous life now...with no wacky voice distracting him.

padfoot89 11-29-2009 11:35 AM

If Rand can come up with a plan to destroy the DO, he could get Moridin to work for him. Moridin's allegiance to the Shadow is because he reasoned that the DO would eventually win given enough number of chances. He's seeing the big picture here that given infinite number of chances the DO would eventually win unless the DO has an IQ of a 2 year old. If Rand can convince Moridin that the DO wouldn't have any other chances, he might just switch allegiance.

Alternatively, he'll kidnap Fain and chuck him into the Bore. The cataclysmic reaction will destroy them both and end up breaking the world, thus fulfilling prophecy.

greatwolf 11-29-2009 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 78595)
Rand and LTT (the memories) are integrated in TAR...just as they are at the end of the book. Rand should have full access to his previous life now...with no wacky voice distracting him.

But what of the Rand and Moridin integration? Min did have that viewing you know, so their memories may also merge. That would give Rand rare view point of the DO.

Davian93 11-29-2009 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 78613)
But what of the Rand and Moridin integration? Min did have that viewing you know, so their memories may also merge. That would give Rand rare view point of the DO.

That is likely yet to come...could be part of how he wins. [He] being Rand and the Light.

Terez 11-29-2009 12:57 PM

Min's viewing says that they 'seemed to merge', not that they did merge. I expect more of the same, but no telling really what sort of ways the link will manifest itself. We don't know enough about it to say.

Neilbert 11-29-2009 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 78595)
Rand and LTT (the memories) are integrated in TAR...just as they are at the end of the book. Rand should have full access to his previous life now...with no wacky voice distracting him.

Yeah ok, but this really just begs the question. Where is Ishamael's palace? It displays all the characteristics of being in TAR, and in the Blight, but we know that these things are mutually exclusive. There is no Blight in TAR. IIRC the location of Ishamae's palace got RAFO'ed in an interview question. What's the deal here?

Quote:

Blight: you can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.
And this is interesting...

Quote:

Q: "Theoretically...if someone...had sex in Tel'aran'rhiod, could they be pregnant in the real world?
RJ: Read and find out. I like the dirty questions! You notice it's always the women who ask the dirty questions, never the men.

Terez 11-29-2009 02:20 PM

I see it as being at Shayol Ghul rather than in the Blight (arguably even more part of another universe than the Blight, but that Moridin has access to in the Dream). But as I've said elsewhere, that is probably the only reason why it felt different than Tel'aran'rhiod, to Rand. All the other characteristics are dead on. I think the reason why Brandon wouldn't confirm that it was Tel'aran'rhiod is that he didn't want to confirm construct theory.

Tercel 11-29-2009 04:07 PM

I've always kind of assumed that Rand's thought that he might be able to kill the Dark One was Brandon's nod to fan-theories. Quite often in tGS, Brandon mentions fan-theories by having characters in-story discuss and debate the very theories fans have been discussing.

I think this is one of those. Rand is the logical one to bring up the fan-theory that Rand might kill the DO rather than re-imprison him, and Moridin is the logical one to argue that it's totally idiotic and would never work.


There's a couple of things I've been wondering though, since hearing in tGS how the Dark One tainted Saidin...

LTT when sealing the bore touched Saidin to the DO directly because "something has to touch him". As a result the DO was able to taint Saidin.

1. So what should touch the DO? We have been told that the bore is a thinness in the pattern which allows the DO to be sensed through the Pattern, which strongly implies that before the bore it was the thickness of the Pattern itself that imprisoned the DO. So it's not surprising that as the DO breaks free of his prison, reality itself is disintegrating. So the 'correct' thing to do to seal the bore is strengthen the Pattern. So far in the series we've seen no mechanism for strengthening the Pattern, except perhaps Herid Fel's comment that "belief and order give strength". (Also, this would make sense of the DO's instructions to sow chaos)

2. If the taint on Saidin was caused by it touching the DO, that suggests that the 'correct' way of removing the taint was to break the seals on the DO's prison, thus disconnecting the DO from Saidin. But the taint being caused by 'touching' the Dark One makes me think that the taint itself is in some sense a 'piece' of the Dark One himself. Rand's solution to the taint was interesting... from RJ interview questions, I understand that Shadar Logoth was a 'new' thing in the history of the wheel. Rand was able to use that evil to mutually annihilate the Dark One's evil touching Saidin. But I have to wonder: Did Rand in fact actually annihilate a 'piece' of the Dark One himself?! If so... shoving Fain into the Pit of Doom could well be a fairly good way to go about 'killing' the Dark One.

Terez 11-29-2009 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tercel (Post 78676)
I've always kind of assumed that Rand's thought that he might be able to kill the Dark One was Brandon's nod to fan-theories. Quite often in tGS, Brandon mentions fan-theories by having characters in-story discuss and debate the very theories fans have been discussing.

I think this is one of those.

I dunno about that. Seems kind of strange for him to all of a sudden believe that he can kill the Dark One, after all this time. And to mention it four times in the book? At least four...I might have missed some.

Davian93 11-29-2009 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 78677)
I dunno about that. Seems kind of strange for him to all of a sudden believe that he can kill the Dark One, after all this time. And to mention it four times in the book? At least four...I might have missed some.

It should be noted that he also thinks he can kill someone just by looking at them funny. I'm not sure if Rand can really be taken seriously throughout most of this book. It seems like the "I'm gonna kill the DO" is the ultimate in grandiose hubris brought on by his possession of the CK Key.

Bonzi77 11-29-2009 04:51 PM

It will be interesting to see if Rand's kill the Dark One plan lasts after he's come to terms with the nature of his destiny and the fact that he wants the Wheel to keep turning as of the end of tGS. The desire to kill the Dark One was part of his megalomania that developed and finally came to a head in tGS.

Terez 11-29-2009 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 78678)
It should be noted that he also thinks he can kill someone just by looking at them funny.

1. There's nothing to say he actually believes that. He was making a threat.

2. There's nothing to say he can't actually do it.

Wunderwaffe 11-29-2009 06:09 PM

Of course RJ isn't going to say that there is anything special about this Age. If he would say otherwise, hardcore fans such as those who common this website would be able to ascertain a few things that he wants unsaid until the End.

Terez 11-29-2009 07:03 PM

Yeah, but he could have said RAFO! lol...but he was reluctant to use that as well. Better to give an Aes Sedai answer. :)

One Armed Gimp 11-29-2009 07:19 PM

I doubt Rand can kill the DO, I do not see that as being a possibility. I almost think that doing so would possibly destroy the pattern as well. It would take away from the balance that RJ so adamantly promotes through out the books.

Terez 11-29-2009 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77 (Post 78682)
It will be interesting to see if Rand's kill the Dark One plan lasts after he's come to terms with the nature of his destiny and the fact that he wants the Wheel to keep turning as of the end of tGS. The desire to kill the Dark One was part of his megalomania that developed and finally came to a head in tGS.

Hmm, it's hard to blame it on his megalomania when he had the same naive belief way back in the first three books:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 52 - Neither Beginning Nor End

"My name," he said after a while, "is Rand al'Thor." More memory crashed back into his head like a lead ball, and he groaned. "The Dark One," he whispered to himself. "The Dark One is dead." There was no more need for caution. "Shai'tan is dead." The world seemed to lurch. He shook in silent mirth until tears poured from his eyes. "Shai'tan is dead!" He laughed at the sky. Other memories. "Egwene!" That name meant something important.

...

"Aginor and Balthamel are dead, and so is Shai'—"

"The Dark One," the Aes Sedai cut him off. Ill or not, her voice was firm, and her dark eyes commanding. "Best we still call him the Dark One. Or Ba'alzamon, at least."

He shrugged. "As you wish. But he's dead. The Dark One's dead. I killed him. I burned him with ..." The rest of memory flooded back then, leaving his mouth hanging open. The One Power. I wielded the One Power. No man can ... He licked lips that were suddenly dry. A gust of wind swirled fallen and falling leaves around them, but it was no colder than his heart. They were looking at him, the three of them. Watching. Not even blinking. He reached out to Egwene, and there was no imagination in her drawing back this time. "Egwene?" She turned her face away, and he let his hand drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 49 - What Was Meant to Be

"I killed him," he said softly. "This time I killed him."

Moiraine put the ruined sword aside like the useless thing it now was, and wiped her hands together. "The Dark One is not slain so easily. The mere fact that he appeared in the sky above Falme is more than merely troubling. He should not be able to do that, if he is bound as we believe. And if he is not, why has he not destroyed us all?" Min stirred uneasily.

Nice reference to the shroud of darkness, halo of blackness, warp in the air thingy:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What is Written in Prophecy

"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

"You are destroyed!" Rand shouted. Callandor spun in his hands. Its light roiled the darkness, severed the steel-black lines around Ba'alzamon, and Ba'alzamon convulsed. As if there were two of him he seemed to dwindle and grow larger at the same time. "You are undone!" Rand plunged the shining blade into Ba'alzamon's chest.

Ba'alzamon screamed, and the fires of his face flared wildly. "Fool!" he howled. "The Great Lord of the Dark can never be defeated!"

Rand pulled Callandor's blade free as Ba'alzamon's body sagged and began to fall, the shadow around him vanishing.

And suddenly Rand was in another Heart of the Stone, surrounded by columns still whole, and fighting men screaming and dying, veiled men and men in breastplates and helmets. Moiraine still lay crumpled at the base of a redstone column. And at Rand's feet lay the body of a man, sprawled on its back with a hole burned through the chest. He might have been a handsome man in his middle years, except that where his eyes and mouth should have been were only pits from which rose tendrils of black smoke.

I have done it, he thought. I have killed Ba'alzamon, killed Shai'tan! I have won the Last Battle! Light, I AM the Dragon Reborn! The breaker of nations, the Breaker of the World. No! I will END the breaking, end the killing! I will MAKE it end!

He raised Callandor above his head. Silver lightning crackled from the blade, jagged streaks arching toward the great dome above. "Stop!" he shouted. The fighting ceased; men stared at him in wonder, over black veils, from beneath the rims of round helmets. "I am Rand al'Thor!" he called, so his voice rang through the chamber. "I am the Dragon Reborn!" Callandor shone in his grasp.One by one, veiled men and helmeted, they knelt to him, crying, "The Dragon is Reborn! The Dragon is Reborn!"

And Rand remembering his naivete when he sees 'Ba'alzamon' again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin

A man sat in the chair on the left. Tall and youthful, he had a square face and ancient blue eyes that reflected the hearth-fire, turning his irises almost purple. The other chair was empty. Rand walked to it and sat down, calming his heart and watching the dancing flames. He had seen this man before in visions, not unlike the ones that appeared when he thought of Mat or Perrin.

The colors did not appear on this thought of his friends. That was odd, but somehow not unexpected. The visions he'd seen of the man in the other chair were different from the ones involving Perrin and Mat. They were more visceral, somehow, more real. At times during those visions, Rand had felt almost as if he could reach out and touch this man. He'd been afraid of what would happen if he did.

He had met the man only once. At Shadar Logoth. The stranger had saved Rand's life, and Rand had often wondered who he had been. Now, in this place, Rand finally knew.

"You are dead," Rand whispered. "I killed you."

The man didn't look from the fire as he laughed. It was a rough, low-throated laugh that held little true mirth. Once, Rand had known this man only as Ba'alzamon—a name for the Dark One—and had foolishly thought that in killing him, he had defeated the Shadow for good.

"I watched you die," Rand said. "I stabbed you through the chest with Callandor. Isha—"

"That is not my name," the man interrupted, still watching the flames. "I am known as Moridin, now."


Ozymandias 11-29-2009 08:12 PM

I would think that the very longevity of his belief he can kill the Dark One is evidence to its "monumental stupidity." When he was an ignorant farmboy, he thought the war would be ended with the death of one side. Its just not in the human condition to believe victory is impossible. Or not normally. Its that very sense of inevitability that drove him insane in the first place.

Nothing says RJ's characters know what the hell they're talking about. I mean, I'd guess that on average, Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne have combined to be wrong far more than their right, and Rand isn't too far behind on the mistaken assumptions count.

I always thought that scene with Moridin was evidence of Rand's growing megalomania. Nothing in the history of Randland suggests the Dark One can be killed. Similarly, we know Rand isn't exactly a philosopher, and I doubt he managed to outthink the greatest minds of the greatest Age in the history of the world. I trust Elan Morin Tendronai on this one. Speaking of which, there is no chance he turns to the Light, to whoever suggested that. As Rand/LTT implies, he became snarled in the inevitability of his own thoughts and fears, and so turned, and in the process became insane. He will dismiss any offer Rand can make.

And, of course, its important to grasp that the Dark One is a being that exists outside of the Pattern. Rand, for all his importance, is just a thread in that Pattern. If it was within the power of the Pattern to get rid of the Dark One, it would have done so long ago. As it has not, it is not within its power. And therefore, as a part of that Pattern, it is not within Rand's power either.

bluejam 11-30-2009 01:48 AM

I've always assumed that the Taint was the True Power, seeped into Saidin because of the seals touching the prison.

And I also assumed (lotsa assumptions, but hey, all opinion here) the True Power is the Dark One's essence, just like Mordeth is basically his own power incarnate as well.

So if we take from that, and with Shadar Logoth at the cleansing destroying the Taint (True Power, Essence of D.O. imho), that the DO can be destroyed, or at least bottled up in an endless fight with Mashadar.

The only tough part would be getting access.

But his wound is almost exactly this scenario, the DO essence fighting the Mashadar essence inside him, while the One Power was weaved on it to keep it contained.

wolframbohr2 11-30-2009 03:21 AM

If the True Power comes from the Dark One, is there a Power that comes from the Creator? Jordan does like balance. If there is, and Rand learns to use it and fixes the hole with it, it will be as good as when the Creator made the prison since it would be the same Power that made the prison in the first place. Thus there would be no hole.

There had to be thinness during the first turning of the Wheel. Something caused it, or the Creator made it when he locked the Dark One away. I am of the persuasion that something like the prison the Creator would have been perfect in doing it. If not he would step in to fix it because he was the one who caused it. The reason he does not step in during the turnings of the Wheel is that somehow something in one of the other Ages caused a thinning that could be detected in the Age of Legend. Thus it is up to us to “fix” it. After this Age, the prison needs to be fixed as good as new, so that something in the other age can thin it again and not cause the Dark One to break free then and there.

This becomes null and void if the Creator indeed created the prison with a thinness setting up conflicts for the Ages.

GonzoTheGreat 11-30-2009 04:15 AM

Perhaps Rand can kill the DO, but only if the latter stands and fights. So, when Rand is about to deal out the death blow, the DO runs away and pulls his prison shut behind himself, killing Rand (who stood in the doorway) in the process. This also solves the "how can a man seal the prison as well as the Creator did" problem, since now it would be the DO, not Rand, who is doing this.

Of course, it requires that Alivia is really the DO, but that is not a very serious problem, I think.

One Armed Gimp 11-30-2009 06:00 AM

Maybe Rand isn't in the "doorway". Alivia knows that Rand's blood is actually what the Creator used to seal the door so she pushes him in.

padfoot89 11-30-2009 06:09 AM

Didn't RJ say that Fain was unique to this age ?
If so, there could be a twist in this age that didn't happen before. We've seen that the DO's evil and Mordeth's evil doesn't mix well. Fain's two main goals seem to be to kill Rand and then the DO. Maybe Rand will pretend to die with Alivia's help, and Fain will then accidentally kill the DO.
Killing the DO does not necessarily mean that DO should physically die, just that he is unable to touch the world ever again. Maybe Rand will do something to shift the prison somewhat so that humans will never be able to detect the DO power no matter what the DO does.
I never saw Ishamael as insane. To me, his decision to join the Shadow makes logical sense. Many forsaken think he is insane because of his frequent TP usage. But it makes sense from Ishamael's point of view as eventually everyone would die and he is making most of his opportunities.
If Rand can make proper arguments for his case, I think he can win over Moridin. He even acknowledges the possibility that Rand might win. You'd think that for DO's top guy, he'd not have even thought about failure. We've seen third-agers do stuff that people in the AoL thought were impossible so Moridin dismissing it doesn't mean its impossible.

Enigma 11-30-2009 08:02 AM

I remember RJ gave an interview some time ago when he said that people used to believe that time wasy like a wheel and that things repeated themselves endlessly. I believe he said that the gift that the (I think he said) Greeks gave the world was the concept of linear time.

When I heard that I always wondered if RJ would have Rand finally doing what so many dragons have never done before and that was not to settle for a status quo but to do something that removed the DO forever. In essence he would make the Last Battle a real "Last" Battle.

WinespringBrother 11-30-2009 08:59 AM

I wonder if it is possible to "taint" the Dark One, as he tainted saidin, since the Pattern and the Prison seem to be as matter/antimatter. (and channeling the OP makes Fades itchy) This may not kill him but it could distract him or drive him insane at least, if he isn't already.

How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

Bonzi77 11-30-2009 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 78708)
Hmm, it's hard to blame it on his megalomania when he had the same naive belief way back in the first three books:

Exactly, naive. When he became better educated he became more focussed on sealing the bore than killing the Dark One. His latest "Kill the Dark One" plan came as a result of him wanting to not have to live this saga over and over again.

padfoot89 11-30-2009 01:26 PM

I just came across a passage in Fires of Heaven where Rand talks to Asmodean about cleansing the taint and Asmodean reacts in a similar scornful manner. Rand eventually does clean it because of Shadar Logoth. Foreshadowing ?

Terez 11-30-2009 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padfoot89 (Post 78786)
Maybe Rand will pretend to die with Alivia's help

nooooooooooooooo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma (Post 78799)
I remember RJ gave an interview some time ago when he said that people used to believe that time wasy like a wheel and that things repeated themselves endlessly. I believe he said that the gift that the (I think he said) Greeks gave the world was the concept of linear time.

I quoted it, post #2. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma
When I heard that I always wondered if RJ would have Rand finally doing what so many dragons have never done before and that was not to settle for a status quo but to do something that removed the DO forever. In essence he would make the Last Battle a real "Last" Battle.

Yeah, I had a similar thought. I'm still deliberating on that one, though. He has also made clear many times that this is a fantasy world, which is why circular time is reality there. He's also made some disparaging remarks on theoretical physics, comparing it to religion, but he's made theoretical physics the reality in his world, along with other things like elemental powers, and legal insanity (wonder what his political opinion was on this one), MPD/schizophrenia (same).

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 78813)
How annoying would it be to stuck in a prison cell with Fain for a few millenia?

hahaha, pretty bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonzi77 (Post 78816)
Exactly, naive. When he became better educated he became more focussed on sealing the bore than killing the Dark One. His latest "Kill the Dark One" plan came as a result of him wanting to not have to live this saga over and over again.

Yeah, there is that. But Rand is stubborn - what's to say he won't get stuck on the idea? :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by padfoot89 (Post 78942)
I just came across a passage in Fires of Heaven where Rand talks to Asmodean about cleansing the taint and Asmodean reacts in a similar scornful manner. Rand eventually does clean it because of Shadar Logoth. Foreshadowing ?

Or red herring? That is the question...

Bonzi77 11-30-2009 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 78958)


Yeah, there is that. But Rand is stubborn - what's to say he won't get stuck on the idea? :)


Yeah, that's why it will be interesting to see if that particular thought sticks with him. He's made a rational and conscious realization about the nature of what his life and destiny are as of the end of tGS, but I don't think that necessarily means all of the byproducts of his being nuts are going to simply go away.

Kimon 11-30-2009 03:49 PM

Has there ever been anything definitive to argue for or against Shaidar Haran (as his name would imply) being either directly linked to or perhaps endowed with some part of the Dark One's essence -perhaps in a way similar to what Sauron did with the one ring. If so, what damage might it do the the Dark One if Shaidar Haran was balefired?

DeiwosTheSkyGod 11-30-2009 05:53 PM

If Rand does kill the Dark One, I think it has to be more complicated than cleansing the taint was. I don't see Fain's evil as proportional enough to the Dark One's to cancel them both out the way Shadar Logoth and the taint did.

Crispin's Crispian 11-30-2009 06:04 PM

I don't think Rand can ever kill the DO. What I've always thought was more likely was that Rand either breaks the Wheel or otherwise stops circular time.

Another alternative is just that Rand uses Fain somehow to seal the prison, possibly using himself as well. It would be like a two-layer seal: Fain touches the DO to neutralize his power. Fain also buffers Rand from the DO's direct influence. Rand, in turn, is the buffer to the rest of the Pattern. You can't make a seal with just Fain, because you need a part of the Pattern to seal it up as well and Fain is too volatile.

One Armed Gimp 11-30-2009 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 79022)
I don't think Rand can ever kill the DO. What I've always thought was more likely was that Rand either breaks the Wheel or otherwise stops circular time.

Wouldn't either of those essentially "break" the pattern, thus releasing the DO?


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