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GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 04:36 AM

Once he is dead, how can he 'bind the nine moons to serve him'?
Even Elaida admits (sort of, at least) that that is something he has to do when Egwene confronts her with it.

Terez 05-04-2010 04:46 AM


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 96828)
Once he is dead, how can he 'bind the nine moons to serve him'?

He already has, through Mat, and he will further through Justice.


Originally Posted by Gonzo
Even Elaida admits (sort of, at least) that that is something he has to do when Egwene confronts her with it.

Elaida's Foretelling didn't have anything to do with that. Egwene's dream, on the other hand, will probably take place after Rand has been ripped out. Egwene and several women will confront Rand. I imagine that Nynaeve and Tuon will be two of them, maybe Moiraine as well? Most of the world won't know that he's been resurrected. Egwene will be wroth with him for killing her Warder, among other things.

GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 05:03 AM


Originally Posted by Terez (Post 96829)
He already has, through Mat, and he will further through Justice.

This is WoT, not SoT. If the Prophecies says that she has to serve him, then having her be CiC with Rand dead is not going to fit that requirement.

Terez 05-04-2010 05:13 AM


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 96830)
This is WoT, not SoT. If the Prophecies says that she has to serve him, then having her be CiC with Rand dead is not going to fit that requirement.

Like I said, he's coming back from the dead.

GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 05:35 AM

And why would she serve him any more than she does now when he has come back?

Terez 05-04-2010 05:59 AM

She will serve him by fulfilling the prophecies and leading his armies against the forces of the Shadow while he sneaks in to battle Lighteater.

GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 06:17 AM

Then one can say that Elaida also served him, in her case by distracting most AS with pointless infighting and bickering, thus keeping them off his back while he was learning how to deal with things. And Rahvin and Nial served Elayne by removing her mother from the throne.

Frankly, I don't think that is a good interpretation of the word "serving". But then, I've always like the "How to serve Man" interpretation, so I may be prejudiced.

Neilbert 05-04-2010 07:33 AM

RJ has been tricksy with the whole serve me thing, like how Moiraine got Rand to serve her cause, or how you get Saidar to serve you.

It isn't always a straight control thing.

Terez 05-04-2010 07:41 AM


Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 96837)
RJ has been tricksy with the whole serve me thing, like how Moiraine got Rand to serve her cause, or how you get Saidar to serve you.

It isn't always a straight control thing.

Like how Elza served Rand by wearing the other bracelet with Semirhage.

GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 07:52 AM

Yeah, but that was "in her own way", a disclaimer which isn't attached to Tuon's terms of service.

Terez 05-04-2010 07:57 AM

In her own 'fashion', actually. But I'm wondering if Egwene won't actually bind Tuon with the Oath Rod. It seems unlikely, but the prophecy does suggest it, does it not?

GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 08:17 AM

But then Tuon would be bound to serve Egwene, not Rand.

Neilbert 05-04-2010 08:26 AM

I've always had the inking of the idea that Egwene will give Tuon access to the Oath Rod. I could see this playing out a variety of ways; Elyane could make another Oath Rod, or they could share one. Either way I see Egwene being important in explaining to Tuon the Oath Rod and giving her "official" permission to use it.

I think Tuon might be open to exchanging an Oath Rod Oath of Fealty for the a-dam. The Oath accomplishes everything the a-dam does, and carries some advantages it does not.

Terez 05-04-2010 08:33 AM

Well, Egwene's deal at the moment is getting people to prove they aren't Darkfriends. But of course, Tuon would have to channel before she could be bound on it. At least, I assume she would have to. Perhaps being on the brink is enough to make the Rod work on her.

Neilbert 05-04-2010 09:40 AM

I wasn't trying to suggest I believed that Tuon would be bound by the Oath Rod.

Casabamelon 05-04-2010 10:56 AM


Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 96846)
But then Tuon would be bound to serve Egwene, not Rand.

Wouldn't that depend on the oath?
Ship sale

One Armed Gimp 05-04-2010 11:15 AM

Nice and neatly laid out theory. I have some qualms buying into completely. The take on Nicola's foretelling is intriguing and I can almost buy into the Battle of Caemlyn being the "great battle".

The land will still be divided by the return even with a truce. A physical division is still a division. Even the Aelfinn answer does not negate there being a division and can be interpreted many ways. My point is that Nicola's foretelling could still be labeling the Last Battle as the great battle. However it could just as easily point to the Battle of Caemlyn.

While I agree that the ripping out method is the most likely method of resurrection for Rand, I still don't buy into him being resurrected 100% either. Which of course puts a damper on my buying into your theory as the resurrection is vital to its happening.

GonzoTheGreat 05-04-2010 11:56 AM


Originally Posted by Casabamelon (Post 96863)
Wouldn't that depend on the oath?

Well, yes. Want to guess what Egwene would and wouldn't put into such an oath?

Marie Curie 7 05-04-2010 12:11 PM

Cool idea. The Narishma thing always seemed a bit forced to me. And forcing prophecy was one of the things that Moiraine warned about:


Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 50 - Traps

Moiraine's lips compressed, and her hands were too still on her skirts; she was not best pleased. "Prophecy is most dangerous when you try to make it happen. Did you not learn that in Tear? The Pattern weaves itself around you, but when you try to weave it, even you cannot hold it. Force the Pattern too tight, and pressure builds. It can explode wildly in every direction. Who can say how long before it settles to focus on you again, or what will happen before it does?"

But then, she tried to do the same thing herself:


Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways

"In one stroke he will make himself so strong in terms of men and swords that only a coalition of every remaining nation from here to the Blight can defeat him, and with the same blow he shows the Forsaken that he is not a plump partridge on a limb for the netting. That will make them wary, and buy him time to learn to use his strength. He must move first, be the hammer, not the nail." The Aes Sedai grimaced slightly, a hint of her earlier anger marring her calm. "He must move first. And what does he do? He reads. Reads himself into deeper trouble."

Nynaeve looked shaken, as if she could see all the battles and death; Egwene's dark eyes were large with horrified understanding. Their faces made Elayne shiver. One had watched Rand grow up, the other had grown up with him. And now they saw him starting wars. Not the Dragon Reborn, but Rand al'Thor.

Egwene struggled visibly, latching onto the smallest part, the most inconsequential, of what Moiraine had said. "How can reading put him in trouble?"

"He has decided to find out for himself what the Prophecies of the Dragon say." Moiraine's face remained cool and smooth, but suddenly she sounded almost as tired as Elayne felt. "They may have been proscribed in Tear, but the Chief Librarian had nine different translations in a locked chest. Rand has them all, now. I pointed out the verse that applies here, and he quoted it to me, from an old Kandori translation.

"'Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream.'"

She grimaced. "It applies to this as well as it does to anything. Illian under Sammael is surely a forsaken city. Lead the Tairen spears to war, chain Sammael, and he has fulfilled the verse. The ancient dream of the Dragon Reborn. But he will not see it. He even has a copy in the Old Tongue, as if he understood two words. He runs after shadows, and Sammael, or Rahvin, or Lanfear may have him by the throat before I can convince him of his mistake."

ShadowbaneX 05-04-2010 12:34 PM

boring, dumb & babbling? I'll admit that it was late when I wrote that but just because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation Terez doesn't mean you need to start throwing around (granted mild) insults (but insults none-the-less. It creates an air of hostility that makes discussing theories difficult.

You also claim to have evidence, and well, that's the funny thing about it, people can disagree on how things are interpreted. I can see where you're coming from with your evidence, but I don't agree with the conclusions you're drawing from them. It's that simple.

As for my premium account, I'm a lifetime member so I'll always have it. I check every now and then, but unless the invites expire (or are withdrawn by the user) there's never more then the occasional youngling that signs up.

As for the Theory as I said, there are some parts of your theory that work, I just think it's too large to really get it to fit together nicely.

Personally, I believe once the Seanchan have Traveling Tuon's more likely to settle Seanchan and claim her throne then to come after Caemlyn. As per what Brandon has said, she might not be happy with not learning the source of 'the weapon', but with Traveling she can do alot of things we have seen her own thoughts express that she wants to do. Also if she does consolidate Seanchan she can gather forces over there, more at least then are currently over here, and try to strengthen her position on this side of the Ocean. That might set the stages for some surgical strikes via Traveling, but once she opens that can of worms, she then has to face the possibility that the other side is going to do the same thing to her. How about the idea of the Band of the Red Hand strolling around the streets of Seandar? Once she has access to those forces the attack might make sense, but I don't see the Seanchan massing for an attack at Caemlyn, I think their tactics might remain a little more...traditional.

If they're to do anything with Traveling it's to move scouting forces out and agents into other cities to start learning more of what's happening. Tuon's gone on a few times about how she wishes she knew more of what was happening and Traveling is an excellent way to get intel. This can happen while she's solidifying her support at home, or it can even happen without her going home and either way it takes time.

That said, I could (if we were to go by myth) see the Black Tower going EVIL and there perhaps being some form of peace treaty attempted between the Seanchan and the Randlanders and for some reason this happening at Caemlyn. I could also see the mistaken betrayal of truce such as happened in Arthurian legend, however, I don't entirely see it as being a large a battle as you foresee. I'm not entirely sure I'd like to see that happen, as I said in my last post a little too much of a copy of Arthurian Legend.

I could also see the Arthurian peace talks and pseudo-betrayal happening at Far Madding where the Borderlanders are. Them coming to figure things out, someone sees something coming draws swords and then a massive fight breaks out there instead.

I do not see Alivia pulling the Egwene and being the blazing banner of power trying rain down fiery vengeance with Mat's Medallion around her neck. I think the only reason why that worked in this book was due to the sa'angreal and the circle she had going with her...and the fact that the raken couldn't really get close to her and the fact the Seanchan were already pulling out. I don't see Alivia, even with Mat's amulet, pulling off that trick nearly as well, especially since we've seen from aCoS that the amulet doesn't protect from buildings or walls being dropped on you.

I can see, somehow, Rand and Gawyn drawing swords, although it would have to be isolated because chances are if anyone saw them fighting, they'd tried to stop it.

As I've said already, there are some parts to what you suggest that I like, but trying to fit it all together as you, there are some pieces of the puzzle here that you have fitting together that I don't think work.

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