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ckparrothead 05-04-2010 01:53 PM

What would a battle with the Dark One actually look like? I mean, all he basically is, is some presence that exists outside the pattern. Some voice in a mountain.

What if Rand needs to die to even fight the guy?

ShadowbaneX 05-04-2010 02:00 PM

I have a feeling that RJ's already thought that one up and it's either in his notes or perhaps already written. Crazy idea: it might even happen off screen and we're only just tangentially told about it. I think we'll find out in about a year and a half though.

Terez 05-04-2010 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 96877)
boring, dumb & babbling? I'll admit that it was late when I wrote that but just because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation Terez doesn't mean you need to start throwing around (granted mild) insults (but insults none-the-less. It creates an air of hostility that makes discussing theories difficult.

Sorry, but you did that first. The whole babbling thing was pretty insulting, and you arguing against the theory without actually having read it was the height of insulting.

ShadowbaneX 05-04-2010 10:39 PM

I wasn't debating your theory, I was debating the part that you posted here and truth be told I thought that this was the essence of the theory posted here, sans overly long explanations.

First you think I'm giving you the evil eye, now you think I'm insulting you. I don't know why you think I'm so hostile towards you.

Terez 05-05-2010 02:35 AM

I found another piece of evidence: Gawain's power waxes and wanes with the sun. His power is strongest at noon, and fades with the sunset. Of course, Gawyn doesn't have this power, but he will kill Rand at noon.

Terez 05-05-2010 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckparrothead (Post 96894)
What would a battle with the Dark One actually look like? I mean, all he basically is, is some presence that exists outside the pattern. Some voice in a mountain.

What if Rand needs to die to even fight the guy?

This is my guess, that he has to die first. I am guessing because of the link with Moridin. He can't sneak up on Shayol Ghul if Moridin might thereby get a whiff of it.

GonzoTheGreat 05-05-2010 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 96945)
I found another piece of evidence: Gawain's power waxes and wanes with the sun. His power is strongest at noon, and fades with the sunset. Of course, Gawyn doesn't have this power, but he will kill Rand at noon.

Does that mean that if Mat had faced Gawyn and Galad at noon, instead of before midmorning, then he would have lost?

Terez 05-05-2010 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 96950)
Does that mean that if Mat had faced Gawyn and Galad at noon, instead of before midmorning, then he would have lost?

Probably not, since Gawyn doesn't actually have any special powers. ;)

Crispin's Crispian 05-05-2010 11:39 AM

I'm curious how Mat giving up the medallion could possibly be considered a betrayal? The only way I could see this happening is if Mat somehow knows that Gawyn is going to get his hands on it and also wants to kill Rand. That seems pretty unlikely.

I think Mat can still betray Rand in other ways (and he probably will), i.e., selling him out somehow to Tuon, bargaining again with the *'finn, etc. That would still fit the Judas parallel, which doesn't need the silver/medallion to work. That said, he could also lose the medallion in another bargain somewhere, but the key is he has to know that it will be used against Rand. Otherwise, there's no betrayal, just tragedy.

GonzoTheGreat 05-05-2010 12:25 PM

Frankly, I think that Mat won't betray Rand.
The whole point of the PS madness was to show the people who went through it what didn't work.

Ingtar kept trying to achieve his goal by being a DF, and that did not work. In reality, he returned to the Light, and achieved his goal.
Rand kept running away from being the DR, and failed. In reality, he graciously allowed everyone to adore him, and now he has no problems. :p
Perrin tried to avoid the wolves, but in reality he accepts that part of him.

Mat betrayed Rand time and time again, so in reality he won't.
Sure, he will come close, just as those others also came (and come) close to repeating their failures. But close doesn't count, when it is a life and death situation.

Once again, I find myself wondering what Verin saw in her alternate lives.

Kimon 05-05-2010 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 96990)
Once again, I find myself wondering what Verin saw in her alternate lives.


"Though I never thought I..."

There are obviously numerous ways in which one could complete Verin's thought, but the fact that she made a point of stopping herself always (I say always since I've been convinced that she was black since her lie in this book...) led me to believe that this halted thought was connected to her either becoming Head of the Black Ajah or else perhaps even risen to Chosen status...

amazinglarry 05-05-2010 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BS
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Has Narishma fulfilled the prophecy regarding Callandor and "who draws it out shall follow after"?
A. RAFO.

This is from the interview database. It seems to reinforce the idea that Narishma as "the one who shall follow after" was a red herring. Other "was prophecy X fulfilled by event Y?" type questions have been answered in a straightforward manner by RJ (the one that comes to mind is Mat's "die and live again" fulfilled by the balefire incident rather than the hanging). It definitely leaves open the possibility (and maybe even suggests) that Rand's interpretation was wrong.

amazinglarry

Terez 05-05-2010 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 96986)
I'm curious how Mat giving up the medallion could possibly be considered a betrayal?

It isn't. It's just going to lead to Rand's death for the Judas parallel. Then Mat will 'betray' that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn.

Crispin's Crispian 05-05-2010 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97000)
It isn't. It's just going to lead to Rand's death for the Judas parallel. Then Mat will 'betray' that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn.

Wow. Really? I didn't see that coming...
Here's what you said originally:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez's Gawyn Theory
Judas sold his knowledge of Jesus' whereabouts, identifying him with a kiss, for a price of thirty pieces of silver, and this led to Jesus' death. After Jesus was arrested, Judas gave the silver away (by throwing it at the priests in the Temple) and then he hanged himself on a tree. Mat got the silver medallion in Eelfland. The price: he was hanged 'for knowledge' on a tree, but he was saved from death by a 'kiss' from Rand (CPR), and he will accidentally betray Rand by giving that piece of silver away, which will lead to Rand's death at Gawyn's hands.

But that's not a betrayal in any sense of the word. You can't really accidentally betray anyone, almost by definition. It may sound like I'm quibbling about semantics, but an actual betrayal is the core of any Judas parallel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T
Then Mat will 'betray' that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn.

To use one of your favorite phrases--that's just dumb. The only way it would be a betrayal is if Rand wanted his afterlife to be a secret, and Mat knew that. Even then, it's hardly on par with Judas.

nameless 05-05-2010 08:52 PM

I think you're putting way to much weight on the Matt/Judas link... after all, Biblical parallels are only one of the many interwoven mythological influences. You might as well argue that Rand will convert to the Way of the Leaf because of his Jesus parallels.

Terez 05-05-2010 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 97002)
It may sound like I'm quibbling about semantics, but an actual betrayal is the core of any Judas parallel.

You are, and it depends on your perspective. Mat obviously isn't going to betray Rand knowingly. Judas was not just a betrayer, but also the cause of Jesus's death. Mat will be the cause of Rand's death, in a removed sort of way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CC
To use one of your favorite phrases--that's just dumb. The only way it would be a betrayal is if Rand wanted his afterlife to be a secret, and Mat knew that. Even then, it's hardly on par with Judas.

UR dumb. When Rand is sneaking up on Shayol Ghul, he'll need everyone to think he's dead. Mat could also betray him via the ta'veren color swirl (whereas Perrin could also deny him three times).

Ishara 05-06-2010 07:51 AM

For what it's worth, because words are important:

be·tray   verb (used with object)
1.to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
2.to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3.to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.
4.to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.
5.to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.
6.to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.
7.to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.
8.to seduce and desert.

I don't think that #5 bears up to the use of the word in your theory - I'm not commenting on the theory itse;f, mind you. Just saying that it may have a stronger impact if you used a different word, because in all but one use, betrayal is strongly associated with a conscious decision.

Terez 05-06-2010 08:05 AM

I already said it's not a real betrayal, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

JSUCamel 05-06-2010 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 97066)
For what it's worth, because words are important:

be·tray   verb (used with object)
1.to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
2.to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3.to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.
4.to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.
5.to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.
6.to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.
7.to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.
8.to seduce and desert.

I don't think that #5 bears up to the use of the word in your theory - I'm not commenting on the theory itse;f, mind you. Just saying that it may have a stronger impact if you used a different word, because in all but one use, betrayal is strongly associated with a conscious decision.

In general, I'm in line with Crispin's skepticism... it's an interesting theory, but I don't really buy it (not that anyone cares). But the way Terez used betrayal in her theory actually does fit the above definition -- maybe not all of them, but many of them. You can betray someone accidentally (another version of the example above: Her nervousness betrayed her lie) or you can betray someone on purpose (example above: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country). I don't really have a problem with the verbage, and I don't really think it's the crux of the theory -- if you think about it, nearly everyone has betrayed their friends in the series. So what's the point of bickering over the definition? A far better (imo) argument is Nameless's statement:

Quote:

I think you're putting way to much weight on the Matt/Judas link... after all, Biblical parallels are only one of the many interwoven mythological influences. You might as well argue that Rand will convert to the Way of the Leaf because of his Jesus parallels.
I have no problem believing that Perrin or Mat will wind up betraying Rand's trust, much in the way that Rand betrayed the Two Rivers by not rushing to their rescue, or betrayed Liah by not chasing her down in Shadar Logoth, but for them betray the side of Light (which is distinct from Rand himself)? I'm not sold on that. I might be able to see Mat doing it if he felt his life were in danger (or similar threatening circumstances), but I actually see Mat as, for once, giving up his instinct for survival in service to the greater good. Bottom line: it's probably a parallel that's being used, but I doubt it will be used quite as literally as Terez seems to suggest that it will be.

Just my two cents.

Basel Gill 05-06-2010 09:00 AM

Just a quick thought. There are some who think that Judas did what he was supposed to do whether by instruction from Jesus or by fate or whatever.

Some of you may have seen an older movie called The Last Temptation of Christ which illustrates how this may have played out. It showed Jesus as a more human character where (I believe, it HAS been a long time since I've seen it) he was shown not to be able to turn himself in due to fear and instructed Judas to do it so he could fulfill his destiny.

Only reason this matters here is that maybe Mat fulfills the Judas role in those parameters. Maybe not because he hates or "betrays" Rand but because Mat or Rand (or both) know it is the only way it could happen.

Thoughts?


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