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Terez 05-06-2010 09:12 AM

Yeah, a lot of people have argued that Judas was simply a tool of God's plan, and therefore was not really culpable, and that he redeemed himself after Jesus was taken. I figure that RJ wanted to make it to where Mat was a tool of the Pattern, where he leads to Rand's death not because he actually betrays him, but by some other means. But there is still an opportunity for a real betrayal later, when Rand comes back from the dead.

Crispin's Crispian 05-06-2010 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97031)
You are, and it depends on your perspective. Mat obviously isn't going to betray Rand knowingly. Judas was not just a betrayer, but also the cause of Jesus's death. Mat will be the cause of Rand's death, in a removed sort of way.

That's fine, but I still say that for the parallel to be effective, an actual conscious betrayal has to be involved. Quibbling about semantics is important when the word in question is the keystone to the whole argument.


Quote:

UR dumb. When Rand is sneaking up on Shayol Ghul, he'll need everyone to think he's dead. Mat could also betray him via the ta'veren color swirl (whereas Perrin could also deny him three times).
Where's that part in your theory? It would help if you had posted in context instead of expecting us to read your mind. Besides, you clearly shifted gears from "betrayal via the medallion" to "betrayal via Horn." Which is it? Or is it both?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97068)
I already said it's not a real betrayal, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

See above. If it's not a "real" betrayal, what's the point of calling it one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97083)
Yeah, a lot of people have argued that Judas was simply a tool of God's plan, and therefore was not really culpable, and that he redeemed himself after Jesus was taken. I figure that RJ wanted to make it to where Mat was a tool of the Pattern, where he leads to Rand's death not because he actually betrays him, but by some other means. But there is still an opportunity for a real betrayal later, when Rand comes back from the dead.

Not to get theological, but I've always figured for Jesus's death to mean what it supposedly meant, it had to be part of God's plan. Judas was culpable only insofar as Jesus's sacrifice was really a sacrifice. Yes, that sounds a little contradictory.

I think the betrayal thing with Mat is important, though I don't know how it will play out. If Mat is going to cause Rand's death, he will do it by making a knowingly risky choice. It won't be as simple as, "I get money," probably more like having to choose between Rand and Tuon somehow.

Neilbert 05-06-2010 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 97132)
See above. If it's not a "real" betrayal, what's the point of calling it one?

Because it is something that can/will be bastardized into Judas betraying Jesus.

ckparrothead 05-06-2010 03:56 PM

Might Mat's potential betrayal tie in somehow with his giving up half the light of the world in order to save the world?

I think we've always cleverly viewed that as him having to somehow lose an eye, and there are other viewings that suggest this.

But maybe it's worth re-thinking?

ckparrothead 05-06-2010 04:02 PM

And I tend to agree that the Judas parallel doesn't come off as potent if it's accidental. That's not betrayal. That's just literary irony. It would be ironic that Mat leaves the medallion behind for noble reasons and it ends up used to kill Rand. But it's not a betrayal in really any sense of the word. It would also be ironic that at one point the beotches tried to insist on taking the medallion away from Mat, and Rand ordered them nice and firm-like that they weren't going to take that medallion away from him, that he "earned" it. That's also literary irony, not Rand accidentally betraying himself.

But I don't think there's any need for defensiveness over it, I think it just means that the very detailed scenario that Terez laid out needs a few different details.

Neilbert 05-06-2010 06:15 PM

The whole point is that it isn't a betrayal in the literal sense. It's a story that might get retold a few dozen times, where details get mixed around and suddenly Thom is the hero of the story breathing fire and Mat is selling out Rand over a medallion instead of losing his medallion for whatever reason and it hurting Rand.

Mat is the kind of guy who would see giving away his medallion, and then the medallion being used to kill Rand, as a sort of betrayal. He would feel really guilty about it anyways.

Crispin's Crispian 05-06-2010 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ckparrothead (Post 97151)
And I tend to agree that the Judas parallel doesn't come off as potent if it's accidental. That's not betrayal. That's just literary irony. It would be ironic that Mat leaves the medallion behind for noble reasons and it ends up used to kill Rand. But it's not a betrayal in really any sense of the word. It would also be ironic that at one point the beotches tried to insist on taking the medallion away from Mat, and Rand ordered them nice and firm-like that they weren't going to take that medallion away from him, that he "earned" it. That's also literary irony, not Rand accidentally betraying himself.

But I don't think there's any need for defensiveness over it, I think it just means that the very detailed scenario that Terez laid out needs a few different details.

I don't think Terez was getting defensive (not really)...and hopefully you didn't mean me. ;)

Otherwise, we're on the same page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil
The whole point is that it isn't a betrayal in the literal sense. It's a story that might get retold a few dozen times, where details get mixed around and suddenly Thom is the hero of the story breathing fire and Mat is selling out Rand over a medallion instead of losing his medallion for whatever reason and it hurting Rand.

Mat is the kind of guy who would see giving away his medallion, and then the medallion being used to kill Rand, as a sort of betrayal. He would feel really guilty about it anyways.

I guess you could see it that way. RJ definitely didn't mean for parallels to be that close--he took parallels, threw them into a blender, and poured us the results.

Ann Kalagon 05-06-2010 08:02 PM

"Justice"
 
"Justice" being not Callandor, and maybe a real sword at that?

I am not sure of the reference for "Justice" but might it be the sword Avienda gave Rand, Terez?

As far as which Seanchan is referenced in Egwene's dream, there are only three Seanchan women significant enough in the plot so far to be "it". Tuon is by far the most likely bet based on the significance of her character. But then we have only seen her fight one time, that was in the street fight when she was in a village with Mat (at work, don't have books here) as far as I remember, and I do not now remember the details of that incident.

I really do think there is a role to play in healing Rand for Nynaeve, somehow, in the end game, whether or not it is a "ripping out" or otherwise.

Terez 05-06-2010 08:16 PM

Ah, Brandon confirmed that Rand's new sword that he got in The Gathering Storm is Justice, Artur Hawkwing's sword. I think he still has Laman's sword (the one Aviendha gave him), but he's been carrying Justice.

Welcome to the ignore list, Crispy. Never thought you would get that bad.

Marie Curie 7 05-06-2010 11:17 PM

Some more comments about the sword...

When Rand started carrying around the mysterious sword in TGS, and we learned later that it was Justice, I really wondered what the point was. It seemed kind of odd to introduce such a thing so late in the series unless there was a specific and significant purpose associated with it. The idea that Tuon will take up Justice goes a long way toward making the role and importance of Justice clear.

Sure, it's possible that Justice will be used in the series in some other way, and even perhaps in some other way by Tuon. But the connection between Tuon and Justice through Hawkwing is clear, and this theory links that very nicely to both Rand's death and Egwene's dreams.

We know that the Seanchan woman's face is fuzzy in Egwene's dream. Perhaps this is because Tuon wasn't yet Empress at the time of Egwene's dream, or perhaps it's because Egeanin takes it up first to deliver to Tuon. Regardless, the sword appeared solid in the dream, suggesting that it is somehow significant:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

So, if Rand is killed and Egeanin delivers Justice to Tuon, it will most likely be when the forces of Light are despondent over the death of the Dragon Reborn. Egwene and Tuon, as per the dream, will have to work together. This may be because Tuon plays some role in the drama that Egwene still has in her future (the headsman's axe dream and such), or because they realize that they have to pull the forces of Light together to stand against the Shadow (it would certainly take some pretty momentous events for Egwene to work with a Seanchan), or some combination thereof.

Anyway, that was a bit of a rehash, but the other nice thing about Tuon taking up Justice and helping Egwene is that it is probably also connected to this dream:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.

The golden hawk is the Seanchan imperial sigil, so it very likely refers to Tuon. Some might say that it could refer to Berelain, since the golden hawk is also the symbol of Mayene, but I don't know of anything particularly significant that would tie Egwene and Berelain together.

Belazamon 05-06-2010 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97180)
Welcome to the ignore list, Crispy. Never thought you would get that bad.

Welcome to the List, Crispy! We're actually having a party later, if you're interested. Just, y'know, don't have any of the wine.

Crispin's Crispian 05-07-2010 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 97191)
Welcome to the List, Crispy! We're actually having a party later, if you're interested. Just, y'know, don't have any of the wine.

Well, that's a surprise. I was actually enjoying the conversation--I didn't realize it had taken a bad turn.

I'll bring my own wine. Or better yet, I'll bring my own beer.

Basel Gill 05-07-2010 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 97218)
Well, that's a surprise. I was actually enjoying the conversation--I didn't realize it had taken a bad turn.

I'll bring my own wine. Or better yet, I'll bring my own beer.

Yes. Beer. Good. :)

Tracer Bullet 06-19-2010 09:07 PM

Taking your theory a bit further makes a ton of sense for Tuon to carry Justice. If you consider what has happened in this theory, the Dragon Reborn being dead, the entire world has been flipped on it's head. Rand is the singular individual that holds the amnesty for male channelers, and with his death the Black Tower will revolt. So with the Last Battle coming and a revolt by the Black Tower to become a ruling force under Taim, how can the light prevail?

I think that the lands would come together under Hawkwing's descendant, Tuon, who now holds the ancestral sword Justice. But, to fight the one power the Seanchan are over matched by the Black Tower and the Dark One. This will force the Seanchan to join with the White Tower and fulfilling Egwene's vision. This force of the Light comprised of the Seanchan with Matt leading it's army (with Rand dead he no longer has his main tie to the Rand Landers), Egwene leading the White Tower, and Logain leading his small faction of male channelers then marches towards the Last Battle.

Just how I see it under your theory.

Terez 06-20-2010 12:56 AM

Yeah, I am starting to lean that way as well lately. It's hard to see how the Black Tower will be tied into the Battle of Caemlyn (which would presumably be the last fight between the Seanchan and Randland forces), and I don't seem them being simultaneous. Makes the most sense for the Black Tower battle to follow the truce, and Rand's death.

FelixPax 06-20-2010 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 (Post 97190)
Some more comments about the sword...

When Rand started carrying around the mysterious sword in TGS, and we learned later that it was Justice, I really wondered what the point was. It seemed kind of odd to introduce such a thing so late in the series unless there was a specific and significant purpose associated with it. The idea that Tuon will take up Justice goes a long way toward making the role and importance of Justice clear.


The Dragon Reborn carrying the sword of justice is a clue to readers that the end is near, as a writer from the Fourth Age twice mentions this sword specifically in reference to the ending of the Third Age.


Quote:

And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

—from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age

The Eye of the World, 'Header' to Chapter 1 "An Empty Road.

Quote:

And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

—from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon,
Author unknown, the Fourth Age


The Great Hunt, 'Footer' in Chapter 50 "After"
Curious to see the various differences in the two sets of texts. Yet the main body of text remains the same overall.

Wonder who will end up writing and or compiling the 'Cycle of the Dragon'? Nesune, Loial or somebody else in the future?


Quote:

So with the Last Battle coming and a revolt by the Black Tower to become a ruling force under Taim, how can the light prevail?
#1 Idea: Logan & his two Aes Sedai..umm, partners..should be able take out Taim specifically. If it comes down to a fight in the Black Tower.



#2 Idea: Umm...put two, three or yes, four Ta'veren in the area. ;) Just like Toman Head had three or four Ta'veren in the general area. :D


#3 Idea: Or there is a slight chance that Lanfear guiding the linked circle of three including Alivia and Rand holding Callandor, could be able to read all the dirty marks above every Darkfriend on the planet. If Lanfear betrays the Dark One for Rand & the side of the Light, she and the others would be able to kill every Shadowspawn & Dreadlord Asha'man if they have a dirty mark of the kind, say Padan Fain Mordeth and Lanfear would notice.


Conclusion: Elaida's foretelling in front of Alviarin though seems put the idea of Aes Sedai fighting Taim's Asha'man in the Black Tower soon (Elaida's Foretelling found in ACoS,Prologue). Although that might occur in the very last book, AMoL, as I'm not sure how Brandon is going to arrange the all various story lines which need to be tied up. It just feels as if four women are going to be in major trouble soon: Empress Fortuona, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha.

Empress Fortuona has the a'dam leashing attempt hanging over her neck and an overthrow attempt in the works. Egwene had a Dream connecting her to an Axe possibly cutting her neck off, unless a man ran to stop it in time. Elayne has a Min viewing speaking of distant problem and "a red-hot iron and an axe" (tGH, Ch.43) to deal with soon. Moridin should know Elayne cares for Rand deeply, because Moghedien told him of that connection I believe. Other later evidence of should have confirmed this relationship to Moridin, e.g. Daved Hanlon telling Lady Shiaine he did not do it with Elayne. Aviendha has unfortunately might have a big problem in the Glass Columns ter'angreal when she take Egwene's Twisted Dream Ring into those Glass Columns. Unlike Tar Valon's Columns used during the Accepted Test, Rhuidean's Glass Columns lack channelers to stablize the item of power. I believe there is a great chance that those Glass Columns will be destroyed after Aviendha enters it. Thus, leaving Aviendha in another world alone.

Possible rescuers of Aviendha include I think:

#1 - Herself, by imaging a place in the Physical World as Nynaeve once did during her Accepted Test, and later Egwene did to enter the 3rd Constant from the Physical World.

#2 - Birgitte, find her and taking her out of the Mirror-type World. Aviendha and Birgitte share a common bond with Elayne. That common bond should give just enough information for Birgitte to find Aviendha in that Mirror-type World. Although this situation would require Birgitte finding & using another Twisted Dream Ring. Yes, that's a big if. Yet if anyone can be considered an expert at the 3rd Constant, Dreaming, and finding individuals--it's Birgitte. More so than even Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, and even Lanfear I'd think.

#3 - Lanfear, after escaping the Tower of Ghenjei, by finding Aviendha by using of a finder weave she put on that Silver Kandori necklace patterned with a Snowflakes design. Yes, its uncertain if there is in fact a finder on Aviendha's necklace, nor if Lanfear can really escape from the Eelfinn realm alive. However, its a slim possibility.


I put these ideas in a ranked order of how likely I thought they might actually occur. I do not consider Elayne a good candidate to find Aviendha, mostly because she's pregnant currently which leads her into difficulty to channeling. Plus Birgitte I think would argue she is better at finding people than Elayne is, in this particular realm. Just like Birgitte previously hinted against Elayne going to the Pit of Doom during the Last Battle.



@Marie Curie 7 - Ah, you believe that Egwene's two Dreams of two Seanchan women, are in fact the very same women in the person of Tuon?

Unusual view I think, but I believe I understand how one might get to that point of view.

In my own case, I do not see Tuon ever wearing any Sword. Why? Because I think that would lower Fortuona's eyes to be seen to wear a Sword, as that would make her seem to be a Soldier not a Marshal General. Leilwin (Egeanin) on the other hand wears a Sword over her shoulder as a Naval Sailor would. Elayne, Thom, Domon, Aludra all trust Leilwin and their common views should help change Egwene's stereotype views about all Seanchan being 'evil'. Leilwin is not 'evil', far from it.



Don't feel bad Crispin's Crispian, it happens from time to time. Might I be able to bring beer along and join your party with Basel Gill, Belazamon?



Quote:

“Elaida often believes what she wants to believe and sees what she wants to see.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 22 "One Answer"
I guess all of us, are guilty of this error of Elaida's from time to time. Some more than others, unfortunately. I'd been as guilty at times (e.g.- thinking ToG rescue was going to occur in tGS instead. Sigh.), yet it seems that Terez prefers a harder absolute line on what she reads than others do.

Maybe one could substitute for Elaida's name, Terez's own name? :o

Quote:

"Terez often believes what she wants to believe and sees what she wants to see."
When does an Ignore List turn into Ignorance?

FelixPax 06-20-2010 10:14 PM

Times are a change'n
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97180)
Ah, Brandon confirmed that Rand's new sword that he got in The Gathering Storm is Justice, Artur Hawkwing's sword. I think he still has Laman's sword (the one Aviendha gave him), but he's been carrying Justice.

Welcome to the ignore list, Crispy. Never thought you would get that bad.



Terez's clue from a past posting?



Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez
Not really. Generally you have a different approach than Naz. If you antagonize anyone in particular in WoT discussion, it's me (or the 3 honored people on my ignore list), but I'm used to it and I can take it, since I know why it happens and came to peace with it some time ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian
What? I antagonize you? Quotes or it hasn't happened.


Looks as if Terez has not come to peace with those who refute her views or bother her in some minor way.

Guess you can join Sodas, Nazbaque, and myself on the Honored List. ;)

Sodas 06-20-2010 11:01 PM

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...tos/ohnoes.jpg

I'm on ignore? It can't be true. If that was true, then it wouldn't be possible for her to have trolled my posts. :)

Terez 06-21-2010 04:02 AM

I don't troll your posts Sodas; I only point out when you're being an idiot (which is often, unfortunately). And neither Naz nor WH is on ignore (and neither is Crispy for that matter).

halo6819 06-22-2010 01:28 AM

getting back on track....
 
brandon posted this:
Quote:

Some interesting reading if you're thinking/talking about Gawyn as a character can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Gaw...e_colour_green
and clarified a bit later with:
Quote:

One other way to think of it is thus: The Wheel will keep on turning, and the Age that we live in (or like unto it) will someday arrive. Legends from what is happening in these books will have survived, and become the Arthur legends during our day. Or, in other cases, stories of other characters have survived in other mythologies. (Look up the Slavic god Perun sometime.)

Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which in turn inspired a poet to write a tale.


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