Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/index.php)
-   Book 12: The Gathering Storm (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=37)
-   -   Who draws it out shall follow after (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3392)

Terez 06-22-2010 05:30 AM

Yeah, I giggled when I read that because of all the people that objected so strongly to me using Arthurian legend as evidence for my theory. And of course, this all came about in the first place because a fan emailed him requesting that he kill off Gawyn so that Egwene and Galad can get together after all. :D

greatwolf 06-22-2010 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 (Post 97190)
We know that the Seanchan woman's face is fuzzy in Egwene's dream. Perhaps this is because Tuon wasn't yet Empress at the time of Egwene's dream, or perhaps it's because Egeanin takes it up first to deliver to Tuon. Regardless, the sword appeared solid in the dream, suggesting that it is somehow significant.


The dream also says that the woman reached Egwene's level. At first I thought that meant that Tuon would channel and become a leader among channelers like Tuon, but I can hardly see this happening now. And I think RJ said staright that Tuon will not channel.

Terez 06-22-2010 08:52 PM

Thom, vardene. Not Tuon.

Terez 06-23-2010 06:54 AM

Also, I am starting to wonder from Brandon's comments if Gawyn is going to survive killing Rand. It seems unlikely for a lot of reasons, but he does seem to imply that Gawyn will have to live with the burden of his mistake for the rest of his days.

Also, I guess there is a parallel between the girdle and the medallion.

FelixPax 06-23-2010 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 102211)
Also, I am starting to wonder from Brandon's comments if Gawyn is going to survive killing Rand. It seems unlikely for a lot of reasons, but he does seem to imply that Gawyn will have to live with the burden of his mistake for the rest of his days.

Or will Rand die in the Last Battle, and Gawyn save Egwene's life soon.

Rand knowing Morgase is alive, threw a wrench in your belief that 'Gawyn will kill Rand with Callandor'. :cool:

Gawyn. Morgase is alive with Galad & Perrin, and they're with to her now. Jahar can you go get Gawyn his mother Morgase, please. ;)

greatwolf 06-23-2010 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 102188)
Thom, vardene. Not Tuon.

The post said Tuon, marie.

FelixPax 06-23-2010 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 102290)
The post said Tuon, marie.

Okay, Tuon.

I know of exactly zero quotations by Robert Jordan claiming that Tuon cannot channel.

One of ongoing hypotheses I have is that Tuon/Fortuona has indeed channeled at least once previously in her lifetime, as a 'Sparker'.

Terez 06-24-2010 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102237)
Or will Rand die in the Last Battle, and Gawyn save Egwene's life soon.

Rand knowing Morgase is alive, threw a wrench in your belief that 'Gawyn will kill Rand with Callandor'. :cool:

Gawyn. Morgase is alive with Galad & Perrin, and they're with to her now. Jahar can you go get Gawyn his mother Morgase, please. ;)

Have you ever heard of dramatic irony?

Also, I said nothing about Callandor at all.

FelixPax 06-24-2010 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 102320)
Have you ever heard of dramatic irony?

Ever heard of 'the Daughter of Night' role according to Dark Prophecy?

jana 06-25-2010 05:32 AM

You people is crazeh !


It had to be said.

nameless 06-25-2010 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102416)
Ever heard of 'the Daughter of Night' role according to Dark Prophecy?

There's a decent chance she's the one who told the Fades to write that in the first place. We know she was in the area since someone (Perrin IIRC) saw a woman in a white dress hanging out at the abandoned village.

FelixPax 06-26-2010 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 102531)
There's a decent chance she's the one who told the Fades to write that in the first place.

That might be possible, however if one looks at scenes in the Stone of Lanfear's negative response to Rand al'Thor desire to follow Prophecies you'd come to a different conclusion.

Lanfear doesn't want Rand to die by following the Prophecies, then. Yet Dark Prophecy claims Rand will die 'serving' the Daughter of the Night.

It just doesn't square. Somebody else wrote the Dark Prophecies, and it was not under Lanfear's influence nor command in the least. A Fate, yes, but a Fate under who's authority?

FelixPax 06-26-2010 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jana (Post 102451)
You people is crazeh !


It had to be said.

Chuckles. ;)

Well, when I finished up my Valan Luca essay ... then find a place to post it ... you tell me if I'm still nutz or not? :D

greatwolf 06-26-2010 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102539)
It just doesn't square. Somebody else wrote the Dark Prophecies, and it was not under Lanfear's influence nor command in the least. A Fate, yes, but a Fate under who's authority?

More important IMO, did RJ ever confirm if it was genuine prophecy?

greatwolf 06-26-2010 04:54 PM

Double post.

FelixPax 06-26-2010 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 102542)
More important IMO, did RJ ever confirm if it was genuine prophecy?

Laugh, what do you think Robert Jordan would say an item planted in the beginning of the series, which is tied to events across the series and one of the biggest climaxes of the whole story?


Quote:

DS from www.wotism.org: Was the Dark Prophecy in The Great Hunt (Now the Great Lord comes...) a real prophecy, or was it a taunt?

RJ: Read and find out.

Source: Barnes and Noble chat 19 October 1998

Now is it an accurate prophecy?
You're asking the very same question, that Siuan, Moiraine and Verin each ask after immediately learning of this Prophecy.


Verin refers to the Dark Prophecy directly, when speaking to Rand at the Portalstone next to Stedding Tsofu. Then later Verin starts asking questions about "Lord Luc" in Two Rivers, during Perrin's Two Rivers scenes. Verin knows who Luc is, too. (tGH, Ch.7)


Verin believes its a really Prophecy, based on her later actions.



Likewise Moiraine in her thoughts refers to ties between Toman Head in the Dark Prophecies, other Prophecies, and Vandene's interpretation of the word 'Ma’vron'.

What do you think one of Verin's letters is likely going to about, after all?

greatwolf 06-27-2010 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102552)
Laugh, what do you think Robert Jordan would say an item planted in the beginning of the series, which is tied to events across the series and one of the biggest climaxes of the whole story?


For the record, this is the quote

Quote:

Originally Posted by tGH ch 7
blood calls blood
"I will say nothing, of course, Mother." Verin bowed, but made no move toward the door. "I thought you might wish to see this, Mother." She pulled a small notebook, bound in soft, brown leather, from her belt. "What was written on the walls in the dungeon. There were few problems with translation. Most was the usual – blasphemy and boasting; Trollocs seem to know little else – but there was one part done in a better hand. An educated Darkfriend, or perhaps a Myrddraal. It could be only taunting, yet it has the form of poetry, or song, and the sound of prophecy. We know little of prophecies from the Shadow, Mother."
The Amyrlin hesitated only a moment before nodding. Prophecies from the Shadow, dark prophecies, had an unfortunate way of being fulfilled as well as prophecies from the Light. "Read it to me."
Verin ruffled through the pages, then cleared her throat and began in a calm, level voice.

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now
course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great
Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great
Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great
Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Now the Great Lord comes

FWIW, the previous chapter was titled "dark prophecy"

But you must consider the source. RJ said it was written by a fade on orders. Whose? What orders? Fain seemed to be in charge of those that left Fal Dara. And he could have inserted tidbits into that prophecy. And we know a SH prototype was among the fades as well, maybe also Lanfear or Ishy (corrupter of prophecies)

Kimon 06-27-2010 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 102573)
For the record, this is the quote



FWIW, the previous chapter was titled "dark prophecy"

But you must consider the source. RJ said it was written by a fade on orders. Whose? What orders? Fain seemed to be in charge of those that left Fal Dara. And he could have inserted tidbits into that prophecy. And we know a SH prototype was among the fades as well, maybe also Lanfear or Ishy (corrupter of prophecies)

Parts of the Dark Prophecy have certainly occured (e.g. the reference to the seed of the hammer burning the ancient tree), but the inclusion of questions demonstrates that not all of it can be taken as true prophecy. The remainder can perhaps be equally divided between obvious narrative (like the Isam section) and innuendo (like the will Rand turn to the shadow questions) inserted by Ishamael or Lanfear (or whoever is the poet/poetess- though those seem the most likely sources).

One might also ask, why is it that the reference to the kneeling of the shining walls is part of the Daughter of the Night stanza? This seems to have already occured- the sisters kneeling to Rand after Dumai's Wells, but it could still refer to a future event- perhaps the tower surrendering to Fortuona. Yet neither of these would connect this event to Lanfear in any way.

No doubt Felix will assume that this means that Lanfear will become Tamyrlin...

greatwolf 07-24-2010 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102307)
Okay, Tuon.

I know of exactly zero quotations by Robert Jordan claiming that Tuon cannot channel.

One of ongoing hypotheses I have is that Tuon/Fortuona has indeed channeled at least once previously in her lifetime, as a 'Sparker'.


I thought she meant something else. You could be right Tuon has already channeled but could you explain why the Suldam and Damane wouldn't notice? Especially the ones most loyal top Radhannan?

FelixPax 07-25-2010 06:57 AM

Egwene needs to wash Rand's dirty feet! ;o)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 102578)
One might also ask, why is it that the reference to the kneeling of the shining walls is part of the Daughter of the Night stanza?

Rand dirty feet have not washed by the Amyrlin Seat Egwene al'Vere, just yet. Nor has she kneel her knee to the Dragon Reborn, yet. ;)

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/900...8DCC94F42C297E

Sea Folk have a similar prophecy of the Aes Sedai following the Dragon Reborn, which Nynaeve & Elayne did not take too seriously back in tFOH book.

Quote:

The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 - Elayne point of view, with Saimistress Coine speaking, and Nynaeve, Windfinder Jorin
A Sea Folk Prophecy telling of the beginning of a new Age.

Quote:

. “Not the Prophecies of the Dragon, Aes Sedai. The Jendai Prophecy, the prophecy of the Coramoor. Not the one you wait for and dread; the one we seek, herald of a new Age.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 - Elayne point of view, with Saimistress Coine speaking, and Nynaeve, Windfinder Jorin


Just take a look at Rand's comments about Egwene as Amyrlin Seat in tGS book. He does not trust her at all, and seems to view her as Aes Sedai only now. Rand distrusts Aes Sedai (tGS) similarly to how Mordeth did in tEotW book. Rand did not even allow Jahar's Aes Sedai Merise to go with him & Nynaeve to Far Madding.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 102578)
This seems to have already occured- the sisters kneeling to Rand after Dumai's Wells, but it could still refer to a future event- perhaps the tower surrendering to Fortuona. Yet neither of these would connect this event to Lanfear in any way.

Chuckles, Lanfear already kneeled, bowed to Rand in The Great Hunt, as Selene. Whereas, Egwene al'Vere never has done that once.


Quote:

The woman laughed musically, but the next instant she was all regal formality, like a queen on her throne. “I am called Selene,” she said. “You have risked your life, and saved mine. I am yours, Lord Rand al’Thor.” And, to Rand’s horror, she knelt before him.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 16, 'In the Mirror of Darkness' - Rand point of view, with Hurin, Loial


Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 102578)
No doubt Felix will assume that this means that Lanfear will become Tamyrlin...

Tamyrlin? No, no, no. :)


I see evidence set across the series, pointing to Mierin guiding weaves to re-sealing the Bore--not Rand.


Herid Fel hints as much to Rand in Cairhien, that someone other than the Dragon Reborn will re-seal the Bore:

Quote:

“No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?” He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. “Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole—an Age, at least—that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder . . . ”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 18 "A Taste of Solitude" - Rand al'Thor point of view, with Herid Fel at the Academy of Cairhien

Ha, no one remembers!

Lanfear has knowledge of how the Bore was destroyed in the first place, unlike Rand al'Thor.

Quote:

Rand drew the first deep breath he had taken since her appearance. Mierin. A name remembered from the glass columns. The woman who had found the Dark One’s prison in the Age of Legends, who had bored into it. Had she known what it was? How had she escaped that fiery doom he had seen?

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" - Rand point of view, with Mierin/Lanfear
Lanfear knows personally how to find the Dark One's prison.

Quote:

“Oh, he knows. The Great Lord knows more than you would suspect. It is possible to talk with him. Go to Shayol Ghul, into the Pit of Doom, and you can . . . hear him. You can . . . bathe in his presence.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decision" - Rand point of view
Just as Selene knew found a doorway into the Illuminator's House in Cairhien, previously.

Quote:

Selene cut him off. “If he wants to go in, alantin, he needs a door. Such as that one.” She pointed to a dark patch a little down the wall. Even with her telling him, Rand was not certain it was a door, but when she strode to it and pulled, it opened.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 27 "The Shadow in the Night" - Rand point of view, with Loial, Selene in Cairhien
Selene has saved Rand b***, so many times already.


Lanfear also is highly experienced at channeling both Saidar and Saidin, unlike the most channelers of the Third Age.



Mierin is already up to taking on the Dark One:

Quote:

. “You are beginning to consider my plan, aren’t you? With those, together, the other Chosen will kneel at our feet. We can supplant the Great Lord himself, challenge the Creator. We—”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 6 "Gateway" - Rand point of view, with Mierin/Daughter of the Night
She is fearless.


Quote:

"Danger adds a certain something,” she said softly."


Daughter of the Night & Dragon Reborn should be part of a linked circle with Alivia, when the Bore is re-sealed. They all should survive that first part, the re-sealing; as the second part is where their ultimate sacrifice shall be made, when Rand using Callandor in a linked circle literally lives up to the name 'Shadowkiller'.

Quote:

Shadowkiller. A man the wolves hold in awe. A man who can channel.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 31 "On the Scent" - Perrin point of view
Even Mierin claims Callandor is enough. :D


Quote:

“You half-use the smallest fraction of what you are capable of, and walk away from what would allow you to crush all who come against you. Where is Callandor, Lews Therin?


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10 "The Stone Stands" - Rand point of view, with Mierin speaking



The name 'Lanfear' was not given to her by the common people of the Light; but was created by herself as a type of disguise to blend in with the rest of the Chosen. Mierin, is a type of double agent, similar to Verin's character. Yet Mierin character has a different ultimate motive than Verin did, 'love'.

Quote:

"None of the others is really certain where I stand, and I like it that way. You can expect no open aid from me.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10 "The Stone Stands" - Rand point of view, with Selene speaking
However, did either Mierin nor Verin fully know what they were getting into earlier? Mierin drilling the Bore like BP, did in the Gulf of Mexico? Or Verin putting herself into a kettle?


The Dragon's rejection of her 'love', is why Mierin later flipped out at the Cairhien docks ... not Rand's rejection of the Shadow & the Chosen.



Moiraine's own line of research, questioning and hope, suggest that she knows how important Mierin's role is in the future. Moiraine could have easily balefired Mierin on the docks of Cairhien, just as she balefired Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone in Tear. However, she specifically pushes Lanfear into the Eelfinn's realm, she was foretold to do.


Quote:

It was Rand laughing, on his knees on the stones of the quay. Laughing, with tears streaming down a face twisted like a man being put to the question. Moiraine felt a chill. If the madness had him, it was beyond her. She could only do what she could do. What she must do.

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean.


The Fire of Heaven, Chapter 52 "Choice" - Moiraine point of view

Quote:

For an instant, Moiraine was silent. She did not want to say too much, but Vandene and Adeleas had more knowledge their fingertips than existed anywhere else but the White Tower, and more complications awaited her there than she cared to deal with now. She let the name slip between her lips as if it were escaping. “Lanfear.”

“For once,” the other woman sighed, “I know not a whit more than I did as a novice. The Daughter of the Night remains as much a mystery as if she truly had cloaked herself in darkness.” She paused, peering into her cup, and when she looked up, her eyes were sharp on Moiraine’s face. “Lanfear was linked to the Dragon, to Lews Therin Telamon. Moiraine, do you have some clue as to where the Dragon will be Reborn? Or was Reborn? Has he come already?”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 22 "Watchers" - Moiraine point of view, with Vandene


Quote:

Lanfear (LAN-fear):

In the Old Tongue, “Daughter of the Night.” One of the Forsaken, perhaps the most powerful next to Ishamael. Unlike the other Forsaken, she chose this name herself. She is said to have been in love with Lews Therin Telamon.

The Great Hunt, Glossary - Lanfear (LAN-fear):


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:33 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.