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Terez 05-08-2010 07:31 AM

Gawyn will kill Rand
 
Join the faction. I kept the creed pretty simple. I am working on a more finely-tuned version of the theory, working in the Gawain parallels and the pattern of blademaster battles and such, but for now you can read the hastily-thrown-together version of the theory on the home page.

(Fixed the faction link - Tam).

Gareth Tomlinson 05-08-2010 08:42 AM

Wow, that was an extensive read. Yeah i can definatley see how you came to that summation. In some ways i hope you're way off the mark, so that when i read ToM i am completley surprised. However alot of what you've written makes sense....

I totally forgot about people experiencing their past lives via Portal stones in TGH.

I want to know what Perrin did and how Mat betrays Rand...

Terez 05-08-2010 08:52 AM

I think I blew the surprise. In some ways, I feel bad about that. But theories are what we do. There is even more evidence I've found since I posted the theory. Some of it is in the comments; some of it is on comments on other sites (tor.com, rafo.com, Dragonmount, and 13th Depository). Will hopefully organize it all into a proper post soon.

Kimon 05-08-2010 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97279)
Join the faction. I kept the creed pretty simple. I am working on a more finely-tuned version of the theory, working in the Gawain parallels and the pattern of blademaster battles and such, but for now you can read the hastily-thrown-together version of the theory on the home page.

If you tie in Gawain parallels too, those will cut both ways, since he died (from the lingering wound that Lancelot gave him at Benwick) just prior to the Battle of Camlann. It was the ghost of Gawain that came to Arthur before the battle and warned him that if he fought against Mordred the next day that he would die.

Terez 05-08-2010 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 97288)
If you tie in Gawain parallels too, those will cut both ways, since he died (from the lingering wound that Lancelot gave him at Benwick) just prior to the Battle of Camlann. It was the ghost of Gawain that came to Arthur before the battle and warned him that if he fought against Mordred the next day that he would die.

I knew the bit about Gawain's unhealed wound, but not about the ghost. Another interesting thing about Gawain is that his power is dependent on the sun, so that he is most powerful at noon (though I gather this is only in some of the tales...but definitely the older ones). Since the foreshadowing indicates that Gawyn will kill Rand at noon, then this makes sense.

In any case, Gawyn is both Gawain and Mordred, since RJ spread the Arthur parallels among several characters. The Battle of Caemlyn will essentially be Arthur vs. Arthur, in that it is Rand vs. the Seanchan (Hawkwing's empire). Merlin is Thom Merrilin, the Amyrlin Seat, and Moiraine too. Mordred is split among Moridin, Mordeth, Demandred, with Gawyn lurking under the surface. One thing that Gawyn definitely has in common with Gawain is the obsession with revenge; in Gawain's case, it was against Lancelot for killing his brother Gareth, and in Gawyn's case, it's Morgase of course. In both cases, the fixation has a rather empty-headed sort of chivalry at its root.

jason wolfbrother 05-08-2010 01:51 PM

link sends me to "You are not the champion of the faction you are attempting to modify" :confused::confused::confused:

Kimon 05-08-2010 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97290)
One thing that Gawyn definitely has in common with Gawain is the obsession with revenge; in Gawain's case, it was against Lancelot for killing his brother Gareth, and in Gawyn's case, it's Morgase of course. In both cases, the fixation has a rather empty-headed sort of chivalry at its root.

It seems a bit harsh to claim that Gawain was obsessed with revenge, but even if you view him as such, he has much better reason than does Gawyn. King Lot of Orkney had four sons- Gawain, Agravaine, Gaheris, and Gareth. Lancelot killed all of them, and with the exception of Agravaine, Lancelot is clearly in the wrong in the other cases. He murdered Gareth and Gaheris while they were unarmed. Gawain had good reason to seek his revenge, since he was trying to avenge all three of his brothers. This does not strike me as "empty-headed chivalry".

In comparing Gawyn to Gawain, the comparison is either sort of good or outright poor depending on which sources you use for the comparison. Gawain comes off less honorably in Malory, yet he comes off as a nigh perfect model of nobility in Geoffrey of Monmouth. So the Gawain of Mallory is obviously a better fit with Gawyn in terms of character (since Gawyn is an honorless schmuck- heck the murder of Lamorak almost even parallels his murder of Hammar and Coulin), but in terms of skill, Gawyn is definitely closer to Monmouth's Gawain, since in Malory Gawain is second tier in ability.

Terez 05-08-2010 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 97296)
It seems a bit harsh to claim that Gawain was obsessed with revenge

The wording comes from a journal article I found on JSTOR (I feel weird linking it rather than giving a proper cite):

Quote:

One of the most discussed questions in Malory scholarship has been why Gawain turns so completely against Lancelot after the death of Gareth and in so doing sacrifices his former nobility in the pursuit of an apparently obsessive revenge.
So, maybe harsh, but it's not really my words.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon
but even if you view him as such, he has much better reason than does Gawyn.

Yup, true.

Quote:

Gawain had good reason to seek his revenge, since he was trying to avenge all three of his brothers. This does not strike me as "empty-headed chivalry".
What makes it empty-headed in Gawain's case is the fact that the revenge wasn't worth the consequences (from what I gather). So, all this tragedy because Gawain had this noble idea that he was obligated to avenge the deaths of his brothers.

Terez 05-08-2010 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jason wolfbrother (Post 97291)
link sends me to "You are not the champion of the faction you are attempting to modify" :confused::confused::confused:

Dunno why it did that - I checked the link - but I'll try again.

Terez 05-09-2010 02:14 AM

Also, I have been thinking about Min's viewing of Perrin, that he would have to be there for Rand twice, or it would be bad. Very bad. Dumai's Wells was one, and it's an easy enough assumption to make that the second would be the Last Battle, but seeing as how Perrin has Morgase, I am starting to think that Caemlyn will be the second time, and that Perrin is not going to make it in time. Which will, of course, be very bad. But still all good in the end, of course.

Marie Curie 7 05-09-2010 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97279)
Join the faction. I kept the creed pretty simple. I am working on a more finely-tuned version of the theory, working in the Gawain parallels and the pattern of blademaster battles and such, but for now you can read the hastily-thrown-together version of the theory on the home page.

I joined! And I happened across a nice bit of additional foreshadowing in Lord of Chaos. You've probably already considered it, but I didn't see it posted in any of the discussions, and I like it. :)

Anyway, it's from one of Gawyn's dreams that Egwene gets pulled into, so it's not a true dream. But it is cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

She blinked, staring in amazement. Around her stretched a forest of great white columns. Most of it seemed fuzzy, indistinct, especially what was far away, but one thing sharp and real was Gawyn, trotting across the white-tiled floor toward her in a plain green coat, anxiety and relief mingled on his face. It was nearly Gawyn's face, anyway. Gawyn might not be as gorgeous as his half-brother Galad, but he was still a handsome man, yet this face seemed... ordinary. She tried to move and could not, not to any extent. Her back was to one of the columns, and chains held her wrists above her head.

This must be Gawyn's dream. Out of all of those countless points of light, she had stopped near his. And somehow been drawn in. How was a question for later. Now she wanted to know why he would dream of holding her captive. Firmly she fixed the truth in her mind. This was a dream, someone else's dream. She was herself, not whatever it was he wanted her to be. She did not accept the reality of anything here. Nothing here touched the true her. Those truths repeated like a chant in her head. It made thinking of anything else difficult, but so long as she held them hard she could risk staying. At least, long enough to find out what peculiar oddities the man had rolling around in his head. Holding her captive!

Abruptly a huge gout of flame bloomed on the floor tiles, and acrid yellow smoke billowed. Rand stepped out of that inferno garbed in gold-embroidered red like a king, facing Gawyn, and the fire and smoke vanished. Only it hardly seemed Rand at all. The real Rand was of a height and size with Gawyn, but this image overtopped Gawyn by a head. The face was just vaguely Rand's, coarser and harder than it should be, the cold face of a murderer. This man wore a sneer. "You will not have her," he snarled.

"You will not keep her," Gawyn replied calmly, and suddenly both men held swords.

Egwene gaped. Not Gawyn holding her prisoner. He dreamed of rescuing her! From Rand! Time to leave this madness. She concentrated on being outside, back in the darkness, looking at this from the outside. Nothing happened.

Swords met with a clash, and the two men danced a deadly dance. Deadly if it had not been a dream, anyway. It was all nonsense. Dreaming a swordfight, of all things. And it was not a nightmare; everything looked normal, if fuzzy, not washed in color. "A man's dreams are a maze even he cannot know," Bair had told her once.

Egwene closed her eyes, focused her entire mind. Outside. She was outside, looking in. No room for anything else in her head. Outside, looking in. Outside, looking in. Outside!

She opened her eyes once more. The fight was reaching its climax. Gawyn's blade drove into Rand's chest, and as Rand sagged, the steel pulled free, swept in a shining arc. Rand's head spun across the floor almost to her feet; it came to rest staring up at her. A scream bubbled in her throat before she could quell it. A dream. Just a dream. But those dead staring eyes seemed very real.

Then Gawyn was in front of her, sword back in its scabbard. Rand's head and body were gone. Gawyn reached for the manacles holding her, and they were gone, too.

"I knew you would come," she breathed, and gave a start. She was herself! She could not give in to this, not for a moment, or she would be well and truly trapped.

It of course doesn't include the bit about Rand also killing Gawyn in turn, and it's about Egwene rather than Morgase (though I could see Rand's 'fooling' Elayne coming into the real thing, too), but the stabbing Rand in the heart part is there. And the chopping off of the head echoes a bit of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Kimon 05-09-2010 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 (Post 97359)
It of course doesn't include the bit about Rand also killing Gawyn in turn, and it's about Egwene rather than Morgase (though I could see Rand's 'fooling' Elayne coming into the real thing, too), but the stabbing Rand in the heart part is there. And the chopping off of the head echoes a bit of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Hmm...now I'm trying to invision Rand as a Nym (since that's basically what the Green Knight was, albeit a slightly more human looking one...). Of course The Green Knight also tested Gawain not just with the axe, but also with the gift of his wife. Maybe instead of Morgawse getting it on with her brother (Arthur), we'll instead have Gawyn trying to get it on with his sister.

Yellowbeard 05-10-2010 12:05 PM

well, gawyn has certainly been built up into being lan-level type bad assed swordsman, ever since he killed the two head warder instructors when siuan was deposed. so he's certainly got the skills to do it, especially w/ rand missing a hand, having vision problems, and having his two unhealable wounds. in fact, it seems it might not be much of a fight at this point between them.

i guess i wonder how gawyn will be able to get to rand, what with all the maidens that guard him, and his entourage of aes sedai and their warders.

the thing is...unless i just missed it, what role does alivia play in this? how will alivia help him die if it's gawyn that kills him in a sword fight? does she open the door and let gawyn in the back way? is she really a darkfriend and would do that?

Terez 05-10-2010 01:35 PM

If you actually read the theory, you'll see what Alivia has to do with it. :p As for how Gawyn will get to Rand...there are any number of ways that it could happen, I think. I feel no particular need to theorize on exactly how that aspect will go down because it might well be completely unpredictable.

Also, there was the whole thing with Sleete in TGS. Sleete (a blademaster) was known for being the only Warder to ever win against Lan, back when Lan still sparred with people (besides Rand of course), and Sleete couldn't beat Gawyn. The only reason Gawyn doesn't have a heron-mark sword is because he didn't think it proper to rob Hammar's corpse.

Yellowbeard 05-10-2010 02:49 PM

Quote:

If you actually read the theory, you'll see what Alivia has to do with it.
i did read it. just wanted to piss you off. ;P

actually, i think alivia's theorized role is kind of lame. she is given mat's medallion, so it can make it's way to gawyn, so he can successfully fight rand. i think she's got something more spectacular in store.

i also wonder if a channeler could actually channel while wearing the medallion. when the flows eminate in the channeler's body, wouldn't the medallion just cause them to dissipate, the same as when the flows touch mat?

like when rand dies, alivia is a strong enough channeler to help his soul be able to migrate to moridin's body thru the link they have and she'll help him be able to conquor/possess moridin's body. chances are there someone channeling something with luc and isam that combined them. much more dramatic if alivia does something similar to help rand.

i agree it very well might be gawyn that does him in. after all, if rand has a moment where he can't seize the power or his channeling sickness hits, that's all it's gonna take for gawyn. or also, rand knows he didn't kill morgase. and when challenged, perhaps rand won't be able to lift his sword at gawyn because he's elayne's brother. sort of like janduin in the waste. the new post-dragonmount summit rand could very well lose his hardness and mistakenly think gawyn won't strike.

Kimon 05-10-2010 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowbeard (Post 97437)

i also wonder if a channeler could actually channel while wearing the medallion. when the flows eminate in the channeler's body, wouldn't the medallion just cause them to dissipate, the same as when the flows touch mat?

Well one of the ter'angreal that Alivia was using in her duel against Cyndane undid the ball of fire that Cyndane threw at her. It's slightly unclear though whether it actually negated the weave, like Mat's medallion, or if it just negated the inversion of the weave so that she could see it, since Flinn still had to heal her of a burn. If it worked like the medallion, then it would suggest that one could channel while wearing the medallion (since Alvia had no problem channeling with her ter'angreal), if it merely negated the inversion, then this is still an open question.

Terez 05-10-2010 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowbeard (Post 97437)
i also wonder if a channeler could actually channel while wearing the medallion.

Yes, RJ said so.

Also, the body-swap theory is the Lamest Theory Ever.

One Armed Gimp 05-10-2010 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97440)
Also, the body-swap theory is the Lamest Theory Ever.

+1

I'm still hard pressed to buy into Rand's resurrection anyway, as I have said before, but much more likely he gets ripped out imo.

I also think your theory misses some key things we know must happen. We know, even more so given the recent spoilers, that the pattern is unraveling. This needs to be addressed and I do not think it can be following your theory. Add to that Avi needing to get knocked up, Elyane, most likely, needing to pop out some kids, though the placement of that event can easily be one of the last things done and does not actually require Rand, Matt and Fortuona need to reunite. Lan needs to build an army and get ready for a fight. I just feel that things would be too rushed following his "resurrection". All that needs to be done in two books with time for pointless and unecessary fight, it takes time away from other plot lines we know need to be, or should be, addressed.

And honestly, why would the Seachan attack? They have nothing to gain from that and every move they have made thus far has been very well planned out and calculated and they seem to always have a purpose.

Ieyasu 05-10-2010 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 97440)
Yes, RJ said so.

Also, the body-swap theory is the Lamest Theory Ever.

I agree the body swap theory is one of the 'Lamest Theory Ever'... but the Super Dragon Soul Ripped out of TAR Theory is equally, if not more, Lame... and this one about a muggle swordsman who is really a minor character offing Rand... pretty close third...

Good work on research, it is well thought out and I can see your interpretation in the quotes you have provided, but I think this theory is way off... at least as far as Rand's death at the hands of Gawyn anyway, though I definitely agree that the capital of Andor will have a rather significant battle take place there.. but that's about as far as my agreement goes.

Yellowbeard 05-10-2010 04:56 PM

i just think that "to live you must die" meaning that he dies and gets to live again in a future turning is a bit anti-climatic at this point.

by the way...rand can't die in caemlyn or at a battle in caemlyn. the prophecies are clear:

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

he'll die there. the visions of him smashing the remaining seals and descending into the pit of doom. i think there's even a vision mentioned of his blood on the black rock of shayol ghul.

maybe he'll fake his death at caemlyn. perhaps at the black tower. and the vision of logain stepping over his fake, disintegrating body is actually foreshadowing of logain taking rand's place in death at caemlyn.


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