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-   -   Is Demandred In "The Land of the Madmen"? (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3606)

LAMBDA 06-23-2010 12:14 PM

Is Demandred In "The Land of the Madmen"?
 
Okay, I've been wondering who Demandred is for a while now, and I think I've reasoned it out.
(WARNING!LONG EXPLANATION AHEAD)
Let's start with what Demandred says at the meet with Mesaana, Demandred, Graendal and Moridin in TGS.
He says: "My rule is secure. We are gathering. We shall be ready." (or something along those lines)...
So let's tick off all the possible entities that are secure at that time.
1) Black Tower
2) Seanchan (the Return)
3) Shara?
4) Land of Madmen?
5) Rand's 'Empire'
6) Whitecloaks
7) Murandy
8) Borderlanders
9) Andor

So Sammael says to Graendal that "events to the south have Demandred's mark all over them" and it is clear that since we're in Sam's POV, he genuinely believes this.

IF Sam is correct, this leaves:
1) Black Tower
2) Land of Madmen?
3) Rand's 'Empire (and Andor)
4) Whitecloaks
5) Murandy

Since Mazrim Taim is clearly not Demandred or his minion (as shown in the double orders in WH), and Osan'gar was also sent to the Black Tower to keep an eye on things, I would assume that if anyone was "gathering for war" in the BT, it would be Taim, not Demandred.
Leaving
1) Land of Madmen?
2) Rand's 'Empire'
3) Whitecloaks
4) Murandy
5) Andor

Because Galad is in charge of the Whitecloaks, and that he's been around since way before Demandred was even released (and grew up with other characters) we can be reasonably sure that Galad is not secretly Demandred in disguise gathering for war. And he's likely not pulling Galad's strings, either, because he comes out of nowhere to challenge Valda, and the only ones who know him are Byar, Dain and Trom; all of which (except for Trom) come from before Demandred was released, and I think there is considerable circumstantial evidence that Trom is not Demandred or one of his proxies.
Leaving
1) Land of Madmen?
2) Rand's Empire
3) Murandy
4) Andor

Since Elayne's just won a bloody civil war all by herself in Andor, and does not appear to be gathering troops in Andor, and also does not appear to be influenced by anyone questionable, we can mark them off the list.
1) Land of Madmen?
2) Rand's Empire
3) Murandy

Rand's Empire armies (the ones gathering for war) is, as far as I can tell, composed of:
a) Bashere's Saldaeans (north)
b) Aiel (east)
c) Tairens (south)

So Darlin could be Demandred, except that Min's viewing says he will marry Caroline, which means he can't be Demandred unless he is secretly in love with her (Unlikely) and there is no evidence of Demandred using Darlin as a proxy and he seems anything but.
Leaving
1) Land of Madmen
2) Murandy
as the only possibilities.

I personally think that Demandred's base of operations in the Land of the Madmen, with proxies in the Black Tower and Murandy (and elsewhere) as Murandy does seem a bit unambitious for someone like Demandred, and the fact that he must have recognized the Band of the Red Hand as Mat's army but doesn't do anything about it. But that evidence is purely speculation.

Weird Harold 06-23-2010 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAMBDA (Post 102239)
So Sammael says to Graendal that "events to the south have Demandred's mark all over them" and it is clear that since we're in Sam's POV, he genuinely believes this.

IF Sam is correct, this leaves:
1) Black Tower
2) Land of Madmen?
3) Rand's 'Empire (and Andor)
4) Whitecloaks
5) Murandy

Relying on Sammael's biased and paranoid assertion that Demandred is behind "events to the South" is probably a bad idea. Even if Sammael is correct, it does not mean that Demandred was present or building a power base in that area; It could be interpreted as meaning that Demandred was NOT building a poer base in the South because that is where he was using proxies to disrupt Sammael's power base.

It is possible that Demandred has brought order and discipline to the mad men, but I think it is unlikely. It would be a lot like expecting all of Somalia's warlords to set aside all their differences overnight and pledge everlasting loyalty to Al Gore.

Shara on the other hand has a land route to the westlands, a tradition of absolute central authority, and a large pool of disciplined, and organized channelers in the Ayyad -- who have (apparently) been the controlling force in Shara for centuries. Shara has also been rumored to be involved in a civil war for the last year -- probably due to Greandal's aquisition of the Sharan rulers for her collection of mindless sex toys.

Whether Demandred is in Shara or with the Madmen, or both, I do think you're definitely correct that he's NOT based anywhere in the Westlands.

greatwolf 06-23-2010 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 102246)
It is possible that Demandred has brought order and discipline to the mad men, but I think it is unlikely. It would be a lot like expecting all of Somalia's warlords to set aside all their differences overnight and pledge everlasting loyalty to Al Gore.


Why al Gore?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lambda
I personally think that Demandred's base of operations in the Land of the Madmen, with proxies in the Black Tower and Murandy

Welcome to the board. Ever been roasted? ;)

I'm wondering how the big guy manages to keep an eye on Rand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WH ch 13
wonderful news
"You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. "You, and Demandred." Osan'gar flinched, flicking his tongue against his lips, and she laughed throatily. "My own charge is . . ." She pressed a thumb down on the edge of the chair as if pinning something and laughed again.


Weird Harold 06-23-2010 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 102268)
Why al Gore

Because he's an evil man noteable for playing second fiddle and or coming in second-best. :D

Kimon 06-23-2010 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 102288)
Because he's an evil man noteable for playing second fiddle and or coming in second-best. :D

So would that make Hillary Mesaana?

Weird Harold 06-23-2010 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 102296)
So would that make Hillary Mesaana?

Nah, Hillary is more the Moghedien type.

Still, silly slurs on R/L politicians aside, Mogidishu and Blackhawk Down are a good parallel for the trouble Demandred would face "ruling" the Isle of Madmen and building an army there.

FelixPax 06-24-2010 01:00 AM

Welcome to Theoryland! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by LAMBDA (Post 102239)
Okay, I've been wondering who Demandred is for a while now, and I think I've reasoned it out.
(WARNING!LONG EXPLANATION AHEAD)

...

Leaving
1) Land of Madmen
2) Murandy
as the only possibilities.

Chuckles. You and everyone else including me, wonder where Demandred has interests and claims to rule. Robert Jordan really did create a huge mysterious puzzle here.


I suspect that there are a few common mistakes readers of this series make in attempting to figure out where Demandred has interests. One of these common errors is, I feel to omit considering the 'empty areas on the map' at all.

Now many individuals have considered Demandred may have interests in one or more of former nations? Many of these now dead nations, are well placed and have ample resources available.

How about additionally considering:

- Khodomar, located now between Cairhien & Tear?
- Balasun & Kharendor, the southern portions of each nation, located in the Shadow Coast?
- Roemalle, Dal Calain and Oburun, who each are in the center of the map surrounding the Black Hills?
- Ileande & Hamarea, located to the due north of Cairhien?
- Indrahar, located at the northern point of the Mountains of Mist?


Separately, if one moves from considering territorial rule to a ruling one or more groups. That widens the scope of possibilities of who Demandred may rule.

Who might one of this groups include?

- Ogiers, who are Shadow Sworn and their associated Steddings.

- Sea Folk Darkfriends, who move from Port to Port. (Although, I personally suspect any Sea Folk darkfriends are in Moridin's nexus, not Demandred's nexus.)




From Waygates to Mountain Passes to control of High Mountains to places millions of Shadowspawn and Darkfriends can easily hide within to manipulation of various nobles and their estates; all of these locations could be areas which Demandred could literally rule from.

What ever did happen to Rahvin's White Lions pushing Eastward into Cairhien, after Rahvin died?
Did thousands of these Darkfriend soldiers end up hiding in Khodomar? Did Demandred gain control of them or not?

What ever happened to Jarid Sarand's missing Andoran Army? Is Demandred behind that move or not?

Lew Therin's voice in Rand's mind claims that Demandred was tied to Shadar Logoth. Has Demandred been using Waygates to move Trollocs and other Shadowspawn around, as I suspect he has? Is this why Moridin was seemingly forced to tell the other Chosen, that a 100,000+ Trollocs were moving through the Waygates? To create a false trail for Demandred to believe, e.g. Sammael is alive & was behind it?

Lew Therin's voice also claimed that Demandred wanted to take Ilyena Therin Moerelle. Who looks most like Ilyena in the current Age, of the Dragon Reborn's three lovers? Elayne. She last know to be in Caemlyn.


Why hasn't anyone ever considered the news that Demandred knew Rand al'Thor wanted to Cleanse Saidin of the Taint, earlier than Osan'gar? Nor that Demandred knew Rand possessed an access key(s) to the Choedan Kal? (Winter's Heart, Ch.13)



Quote:

Originally Posted by LAMBDA (Post 102239)
I personally think that Demandred's base of operations in the Land of the Madmen, with proxies in the Black Tower and Murandy (and elsewhere) as Murandy does seem a bit unambitious for someone like Demandred, and the fact that he must have recognized the Band of the Red Hand as Mat's army but doesn't do anything about it. But that evidence is purely speculation.


Curious, Demandred you suspect is in the Land of Madmen of all places? Why do you think this is so?

It is not like the natives would be friendly to outsiders, in the Land of Madmen. Hard to manipulate a nation, or group when supposedly none exist in the Land of Madmen, outside of village size groups in constant combats within each other.

greatwolf 06-24-2010 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102311)
Welcome to Theoryland! :)...

...


...


...


...


Felix, was that post meant to be read? Never mind, I'm just feeling really lazy. :)

Weird Harold 06-24-2010 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 102311)
One of these common errors is, I feel to omit considering the 'empty areas on the map' at all.

I don't think it is an error to eliminate the empty areas on the map.

The Borderlands armies passed through the largest empty spot, the Caralain Grass, without a hint of another army in the area, yet news of an army moving south toward Caemlyn before them, in spite of their efforts at moving secretly.

There is indeed a lot of space on the map where a new, relatively clandestine, nation could be built. The key word there is "built" as there is no infrastructure remaining in those empty spots and the numbers of builders and workers required would produce a noticeable effect on other nations labor markets.

If Demandred is building an army and nation in the empty lands, he's importing his labor and supplies from somewhere outside of the Westlands. If he's doing that, why not just take over that "somewhare outside" instead of building from scratch?

Building a nation from scratch would likely be easier than uniting the Madmen, but at least they have some sort of infrastructure. The Sharan's have even more infrastructure and fewer warring factions.

Tamyrlin 07-07-2010 12:32 AM

I was re-reading TGS
 
And I did ask myself the same question (again, because it's not like we didn't discuss the isle of madmen previously).

Quote:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: PROLOGUE - What the Storm Means
"And you?" Moridin asked Demandred. "My rule is secure," Demandred said simply. "I gather for war. We will be ready." Graendal itched for him to say more than that, but Moridin did not push. Still, it was much more than she'd been able to glean on her own. Demandred apparently held a throne and had armies. Which were gathered. The Borderlanders marching through the east seemed more and more likely.
My rule is secure. Where? Where is his rule secure that Graendal and others have been unable to ascertain? Where they don't have eyes and ears.

I gather for war. Where is he gathering for war that has gone unnoticed by those like Graendal that have been looking for him that hasn't been discovered in all of the traveling of three or four or five armies throughout the Westlands? Where those armies are not traveling.

We will be ready. Who will be ready?

I think Shara and the Isle of Madmen offer two good locations for a Forsaken with the knowledge of the Age of Legends to dominate and recruit an army outside of the knowledge of both "friend" and enemy. Often, I wonder if what is said of the Isle of Madmen is folklore.

GonzoTheGreat 07-07-2010 04:02 AM

RJ's answer to a question on Australia seems to rule it out:
Quote:

Question from Cameo_Vox: The Land of Madmen is mentioned in the coffee table book. Do you have any plans on incorporating it into one of the next books?

Robert Jordan: Read and find out! There are some things I might do that might take place there, but those things could also just as well be done in other places.
If it were Demandred's power base, then whatever it is that he contemplates doing there could not happen elsewhere.

Bane Darkwulf 07-07-2010 09:34 AM

I believe Demandred's army is/was the Prohet and his men. Demandred came in second best to LTT in all aspects, so he would jump at the chance tohave someone declaring him to be the Dragon, and could have used Compulsion or an illusion t make himself look like Rand. This would also include the belief that only the dragon should be able to channel the OP. Any Asha'man around when he showed up would be capable of sensing his channeling, and wonder who he was. Not only this, but he would be able to keep an eye on Masema by taking a position with him, or having informants within his group.

Tamyrlin 07-07-2010 10:55 AM

I'm not suggesting we'll see much there
 
Demandred would bring his army from Shara/Isle - but not necessarily that we'd ever go to those locations. Although, that quote doesn't affect the plausibility of the idea.

Weird Harold 07-07-2010 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 103237)
I think Shara and the Isle of Madmen offer two good locations for a Forsaken with the knowledge of the Age of Legends to dominate and recruit an army outside of the knowledge of both "friend" and enemy. Often, I wonder if what is said of the Isle of Madmen is folklore.

If we are to use the bolded portion as a requirement, Shara would be eliminated; Greandal kidnapped the Shebootay and Sheboygan (or whatever their titles are) and the Aiel have heard rumors of civil war in Shara. The only thing keeping friend or foe from finding Demandred in Shara would be lack of effort.

Casabamelon 07-08-2010 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 103255)
If we are to use the bolded portion as a requirement, Shara would be eliminated; Greandal kidnapped the Shebootay and Sheboygan (or whatever their titles are) and the Aiel have heard rumors of civil war in Shara. The only thing keeping friend or foe from finding Demandred in Shara would be lack of effort.

LOL! So, Shara is really Wisconsin?
________
Lesbian Latina

FelixPax 07-12-2010 04:23 PM

Sh'boan and Sh'botay of Shara, is who Graendal kidnapped. Not exactly sure how WH connected Shebootay and Sheboygan to Shara....


Tamyrlin, what do you believe Demandred army or armies are composed of mostly? Human Darkfriends? Trollocs? Asha'man? Black Ajah? Or something new to the story like Bloodwasps?

Considering that Trollocs cannot take Traveling Gateways to move from the Isle of Madmen to Randland. If you say Trollocs are the major members of Demandred's armies, how are you suggesting they are moving into Randland now?

Waygates?

If that's the case, Waygates + Trollocs + Isle of Madmen, couldn't the same be said for the Southern Icecap too?

There's a continent below the Southern Icecap according to the BWB. That implies the possibility of Portalstones.

There is one big problem through, Waygates were created after the Breaking by male Aes Sedai next to Ogier steddings. Nobody has ever mentioned Steddings in Shara nor The Isle of Madmen nor the Southern Icecap continent.

And if the Seanchan Empire's Ogier Steddings had Waygates, why didn't they sent scouts through to the Randland before hand?

To move huge numbers of Trollocs from any of those areas is likely going to need Waygates. That suggests that at least a few Ogier Steddings are going to side with the Shadow, so that Demandred could have new Waygates created to access his armies now in a foreign land. That is if your idea is correct.

Are you going to now suggest that Demandred's army is walking across the Aiel Waste instead of using Waygates?

Enigma 07-12-2010 04:30 PM

I doubt if portal stones could be used for large scale troop movements. In TSR Rand used an angreal to move a small Aiel army to the waste and it totally wiped him out. When I say small I don't recall the exact numbers but it was at most a few thousand and nothing like say 10,000 and the number of Aiel was probably a lot less.

Demandred has given no indication of having any angreal if he has to move shadowspawn around by portalstone it would leave him far too exhaused to be very effective.

As far as waygates go I could be wrong here but I was under the impression that the larger the numbers in any group traveling in the Ways the faster they drew the attention of the Black Wind and even Demandred would be taxed trying to fight it off.

Weird Harold 07-12-2010 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 103649)
Sh'bo[yg]an and Sh'bo[o]tay of Shara, is who Graendal kidnapped. Not exactly sure how WH connected Shebootay and Sheboygan to Shara....

I was just too lazy to look up the proper spelling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 103649)
Tamyrlin, what do you believe Demandred army or armies are composed of mostly? Human Darkfriends? Trollocs? Asha'man? Black Ajah? Or something new to the story like Bloodwasps?

Demandred's army is most likely 100% human although not necessarily human Darkfriends. Conscripts aren't generally given a choice about whether they fight for the Light or for the Shadow; they're just given the choice of "follow orders or die."

Demandred's army, if Sharan, would have a significant Channeling contingent from the Ayyad; perhaps be commanded by an all (female) Ayyad officer corps. He'd have lesser numbers of male Ayyad channelers because he's only had two years to stop the killing of ayyad males at full maturity and begin to educate them.

I doubt that Demandred's army has significant numbers of shadowspawn because it would, as you point out, limit his mobility to waygates and portal stones. Neither would permit movement of large numbers of troops on anywhere near the scale permitted by an army that can use gateways and has numerous circles of 13 Ayyad to open many huge gateways.

isamu237 08-08-2010 10:44 AM

....I just realized I'm way to tired to make yet another post. Thus, I will use the Vinny method of oratory: Everything that guy just said is bullsh**

You may argue amongst yourselves on which one of you is "that guy."

Neilbert 08-08-2010 01:12 PM

I would laugh if the answer was "all of the above".

Why not have your hand in as many pies as possible?


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