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-   -   Verin's note, dead Tinkers, and living Tinkers (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3708)

nameless 07-24-2010 09:17 PM

Verin's note, dead Tinkers, and living Tinkers
 
Lately I've become more and more certain that the Tinkers are going to do something huge in the last book or two. I think the Way of the Leaf may provide the key to winning the Last Battle. I don't have any real evidence for it other than the sheer preponderance of instances in which the Tinkers are introduced and one of the peripheral characters dismisses them as unimportant, only to be proven wrong. Of the top of my head, there's:
- the Aiel from the Tinker's story in EotW who practically spits on them while he gives them his dying message which they in turn manage to deliver via Perrin to the one Aes Sedai actually in a position to do something about it
- Masema's contempt for Moiraine's Tinker spy for which he is immediately chastised in tDR
-the Whitecloak's callous cruelty and indifference for the Tinkers during the Two Rivers Trolloc infestation, in which the Tinkers proved themselves heroes and the Whitecloaks proved themselves cowards
-One of Perrin's Asha'man (Gedwyn I think?) derides Tinkers as cowards in front of the Seanchan and Perrin shames him by praising their courage

On top of that, the hospitality of the Tinkers outside Seanchan-controlled Ebou Dar contributed to Rand's decision to spare the city and his eventual apotheosis on Dragonmount in tGS, and Egwene's use of need in TAR brought her to a Tinker camp. The murdered Tinker's undelivered message in LoC is likely linked to Carridin's campaign of persecution designed to discredit Rand Al'Thor, which was masterminded by Pedron Nial but altered by Ishamael via compulsion. I think the payoff of all the Tinker-related foreshadowing is going to be that the Way of the Leaf is somehow dangerous to the Shadow in a "pure good counteracts pure evil" sort of way and that's why Ishy gave orders to have Carridin's thugs kill all Tinkers on sight.

edit: I mentioned Verin's note in the title because of her cryptic hint that the Dark One wasn't going to fight the way Rand thinks it was.

Kimon 07-24-2010 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 104506)
Lately I've become more and more certain that the Tinkers are going to do something huge in the last book or two. I think the Way of the Leaf may provide the key to winning the Last Battle. I don't have any real evidence for it other than the sheer preponderance of instances in which the Tinkers are introduced and one of the peripheral characters dismisses them as unimportant, only to be proven wrong. Of the top of my head, there's:
- the Aiel from the Tinker's story in EotW who practically spits on them while he gives them his dying message which they in turn manage to deliver via Perrin to the one Aes Sedai actually in a position to do something about it
- Masema's contempt for Moiraine's Tinker spy for which he is immediately chastised in tDR
-the Whitecloak's callous cruelty and indifference for the Tinkers during the Two Rivers Trolloc infestation, in which the Tinkers proved themselves heroes and the Whitecloaks proved themselves cowards
-One of Perrin's Asha'man (Gedwyn I think?) derides Tinkers as cowards in front of the Seanchan and Perrin shames him by praising their courage

On top of that, the hospitality of the Tinkers outside Seanchan-controlled Ebou Dar contributed to Rand's decision to spare the city and his eventual apotheosis on Dragonmount in tGS, and Egwene's use of need in TAR brought her to a Tinker camp. The murdered Tinker's undelivered message in LoC is likely linked to Carridin's campaign of persecution designed to discredit Rand Al'Thor, which was masterminded by Pedron Nial but altered by Ishamael via compulsion. I think the payoff of all the Tinker-related foreshadowing is going to be that the Way of the Leaf is somehow dangerous to the Shadow in a "pure good counteracts pure evil" sort of way and that's why Ishy gave orders to have Carridin's thugs kill all Tinkers on sight.

edit: I mentioned Verin's note in the title because of her cryptic hint that the Dark One wasn't going to fight the way Rand thinks it was.

Perhaps, though to be honest, hopefully not. The Tinkers are so dull that they make even Perrin seem like an interesting character.

Two emendations however:

It was Neald, not Gedwyn.

And I don't think you meant to (or at least you shouldn't...) use apotheosis for Rand's scene on Dragonmount. An apotheosis would mean that he became a god, that scene was a katharsis.

GonzoTheGreat 07-25-2010 04:00 AM

And "TELL THE DRAGON REBORN" from LoC could be the little thing we've missed. Or at least, the thing of which we underestimated the importance.
Did Mat ever inform Rand of that caravan full of dead Tinkers? I don't think so, but it may have happened off screen.

lurk 07-25-2010 03:10 PM

here is some crackbrained idea

to heal the bore the song must be sung :eek:

Terez 07-25-2010 03:11 PM

You must have missed that theory on the main page.

FelixPax 07-25-2010 10:04 PM

A Dying World; a Lost Song, Eelfinn's Realm and Need.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 104506)
Lately I've become more and more certain that the Tinkers are going to do something huge in the last book or two. I think the Way of the Leaf may provide the key to winning the Last Battle.

Tinkers already helped changed the Dragon Reborn's heart at the end of tGS. So...

How about 'healing' a world dying from the touch of Mordeth's presents within the Dragon Reborn?

Farms plants, trees, and even weeds are barely growing if at all now.


Padan Fain Mordeth did claim the world will pay:

Quote:

“You will pay for what was done to me, al’Thor! The world will pay!” He cackled at the night with mad laughter. “The world will pay!”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 19 'Beneath the Dagger' - Padan Fain Mordeth
Quote:

Rand al’Thor was his, now. I will see him dead at last. And then the world will pay for what was done to me.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 34 'The Wheel Weaves' - Padan Fain Mordeth
Tinkers in essence are the opposite of Mordeth ideologically. They want life to thrive, while Mordeth wants killings and death.


Even if the Bore is successful re-sealed and all the Shadowspawn are removed magically; something needs to heal the damage to the world's plant life. So that world can survive and thrive, again. Otherwise, it would be a hollow victory. Victory over the Shadow, and then the world dying by starvation?


Want to eat? Where is food growing?


What is a solution to this problem?
The Lost Song, of the Tinkers.


The Tinkers Lost Song could be found, within the Tower of Ghenjei by one of the five individuals there or possibly from within Rand's recently regained memories.


There also a distance chance that one of Elayne's ter'angreal items might have a recording of the 'Lost Song', in Caemlyn. I don't recall anyone else suggesting that possibility.


Which possibility --Eelfinn; Rand's memories; ter'angreal items--has the best odds, I suspect?


Remember what do Eelfinn again?

The Eelfinn answer 'need', not questions. :D


Quote:

Come. I will take you where you may find what you need. Come.” He backed away, gesturing with both hands. “Come.”

The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 24 'Rhuidean' - Mat Cauthon point of view, listening to a Eelfinn man speak

GonzoTheGreat 07-26-2010 03:53 AM

But that "lost song" is just a big red herring chased after by clueless Tinkers. We know very well that there was never such a song. Wich, I think, rather wrecks your whole reasoning here.

All that the Song was was a OP linked fertilizer. Useful, sure, but by no means the cure-for-everything that Tinker myth has made it into.

Weird Harold 07-26-2010 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 104572)
All that the Song was was a OP linked fertilizer. Useful, sure, but by no means the cure-for-everything that Tinker myth has made it into.

That may be true, but Loial proved that Singing is effective against the Blight when he sang Someshta's remains to rest.

"The Song" may not be what the Tinkers think it is, but I don't think it's a complete red herring either -- more of a pastel pink herring. :D

4Alethinos 07-26-2010 07:48 PM

I do not see that singing a song that provided for crop growth has any direct relationship to sealing the Bore.

I do believe that sealing the Bore will require something special since one would be under some assualt by the Dark One. I have never believed that the use of force whether Balefire on any other attack weave will solve the issue of how does one bring the weaves of the Pattern back together in order to reseal the Dark One's prison for another cycle.

In my mind the Bore is a place where they spread the weaves of the Pattern apart. They did not destroy any weaves made by people or by the Wheel by this action.

Weird Harold 07-26-2010 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Alethinos (Post 104610)
I do not see that singing a song that provided for crop growth has any direct relationship to sealing the Bore.

I don't think seed singing was a singular song -- such as could be recorded and played back for every field -- but a technique for bring many different factors into harmony so that optimum growth can happen.

I think that bringing things into harmony could have a direct bearing on sealing the Bore, but even if it doesn't, it could have a major effect on setting the pre-conditions necessary for a successful sealing -- i.e. undoing the DO's touch on the world.

FelixPax 07-26-2010 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Alethinos
I do not see that singing a song that provided for crop growth has any direct relationship to sealing the Bore.

How, where might the "Lost Song" be found?

By a Tuatha'an who needs to find the "Lost Song", in a place where 'need' is answered: Eelfinn Realm.


Where did Moiraine and Mierin disappear to, together?

Eelfinn realm.



I do not ever recall claiming that a Lost Song would re-seal the Bore. I have suggested that the "Lost Song" is connected to the Land's Re-birth, after the Dragon Reborn has died.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 104594)
"The Song" may not be what the Tinkers think it is, but I don't think it's a complete red herring either -- more of a pastel pink herring. :D

The 'Lost Song' has been part of this series lore since the very beginning of the story. It's not a red herring, but part of the ending of this story. AMoL book, is not only going to be about Rand's likely re-birth, but the 'Song' being found and used again.


Who prompted Loial to learn the Treesongs a few years ago?

Questions by a nameless band of Tuatha'an, literally pushed Elder Arent to have Loial develop his Talent of Treesinging.

Who was this the likely leader of band of Tuatha'an?

A Seeker named Valan Luca.

A title he likely lost at Stedding Tsofu, when another Band of led by Seeker Raen, and his wife Ila learned of his band's actions in Shara, to survive. Cast out by the Tuatha'an, and yet in his heart he remains a Da'Shain Aiel.

4Alethinos 07-27-2010 01:16 AM

I still like the way that you think, WH. That is a very interesting take. The idea of harmony in place of the present chaos is an interesting juxtaposition. I must confess that I like it. I do not see it as how the Bore may be sealed, but it surely could be a part in providing a circumstance for Rand to prevail.

Weird Harold 07-27-2010 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 104617)
How, where might the "Lost Song" be found?

Perhaps in the memories of someone who knew the song before it was lost?

Quote:

Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste. Not so tall as Lews Therin, he was clothed all in black, save for the snow-white lace at his throat and the silverwork on the turned-down tops of his thigh-high boots. He stepped carefully, handling his cloak fastidiously to avoid brushing the dead. The floor trembled with aftershocks, but his attention was fixed on the man staring into the mirror and. laughing.

"Lord of the Morning," he said, "I have come for you."

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?"

The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin. "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?"
Quote:

Originally Posted by tEotW Prologue footer
"And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

(from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)"

The person who most needs to know how to Heal the Pattern and Seal(Heal) the Bore has the memories of the man who even in his madness asked if the stranger has the "Voice" to participate in the "Singing" and is linked to the man the question was asked of -- If the knowledge needed to for Rand to revive the Song isn't available to Rand, it's likely not available to the forces of Light in the Third Age at all.

Weird Harold 07-27-2010 01:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Alethinos (Post 104623)
I still like the way that you think, WH. That is a very interesting take. The idea of harmony in place of the present chaos is an interesting juxtaposition. I must confess that I like it. I do not see it as how the Bore may be sealed, but it surely could be a part in providing a circumstance for Rand to prevail.

We've known since the prologue of tEotW that Singing -- with a capital -- is going to be important to saving the world; Both because it was one of LTT's last thoughts and because the fourth age histories tell us it is necessary to restore the world.

GonzoTheGreat 07-27-2010 04:06 AM

On the other hand, all throughout the War of Power people were using Singing to help the farmers, and that did not seem to inconvenience the Shadow all that much.
So there is quite a lot of evidence against this idea, and precious little in favor of it.

lurk 07-27-2010 04:30 AM

Does the effect of Singing to the land depend on the number of people Singing? or on your talent of Singing (having the Voice) or both or someting else?

Terez 07-27-2010 04:31 AM

The Blight grew southward after the Strike, so maybe the seed-singers did have some effect.

IamChosen 07-27-2010 12:25 PM

Rand should also remember the Song from his Rhuidean flashback.

It'd be appropriate for Aiel and Tinkers to sing it together.

Weird Harold 07-27-2010 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lurk (Post 104643)
Does the effect of Singing to the land depend on the number of people Singing? or on your talent of Singing (having the Voice) or both or someting else?

I suppose it depends on how good the acoustics are -- or how big the amplifier(s) are.

It doesn't take much input energy to have a large effect if you can hit the resonant frequency(s) of what you're trying to affect. I suspect that matching the harmonies of "the music of the spheres" -- or the WOT equivalent -- will require a million-part harmony arrangement. Or a very Talented Soloist. :D

4Alethinos 07-27-2010 03:20 PM

We know that from the events that Rand experienced upon Dragonmount he is fully integrated with not only LTT's memories, but all of his previous lives. The knowledge of that song does reside in Rand's memory right now.

We do know from the prophecies that the song will be sung again. It is the timing that matters. I would suggest that this event occures after the sealing of the Bore. I am not sure that the song is capable on its own to undo the influence of a still active Dark One.

It is also suggestive that if my assumption is correct that Rand will have to be alive to sing it. Alas, poor Callandor, I knew him well. hehe


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