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-   -   Will Rand use the True Power to rebuild the Dark One's prison? (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3755)

amazinglarry 08-09-2010 02:14 PM

Will Rand use the True Power to rebuild the Dark One's prison?
 
Here's an idea that I don't have much evidence for, but wanted to throw out there for discussion. I'm wondering if anyone has written up a theory or discussed the idea that Rand will use the True Power to re-imprison the Dark One. I didn't find anything by searching the forums and theories but maybe I missed it.

Basically this idea assumes that Rand's use of the TP in TGS is going to serve some plot purpose beyond simply allowing him to escape the bracelets and kill Semirhage. We already know from BS that Rand's TP use will have consequences, by which he probably means that Rand will struggle with the addictive properties of the TP. It would be pretty cool (and ironic) if Rand were to fight TP addiction over the next 2 books and finally emerge victorious by using the TP to rebuild the DO's prison. I say "rebuild" rather than "reseal" because the Herid Fel note implies that the prison must be broken open and rebuilt rather than the bore re-sealed. It seems that a One Power seal for the prison is insufficient, since Lews Therin and co. already tried this and we all know how that turned out.

I guess the main problem with this idea is that the DO controls who gets to access the TP, so the minute he detects Rand using it against him he could simply cut Rand off. One way to get around this is to assume that Rand can channel the TP w/o the DO's explicit permission through Moridin. Maybe Rand can simply use Moridin's TP permission by proxy using the balefire-crossed-streams-ghostbusters-connection that the two share. This seems to be how he accessed the TP in TGS (although I know there are some who argue that he does indeed have explicit permission). This would imply that the DO cannot cut Rand off w/o also cutting Moridin off. This would certainly create a conundrum for the DO if Moridin and Rand start fighting each other with the TP.

Another problem is that I haven't seen much in terms of direct foreshadowing that supports this theory. Usually RJ drops a lot of hints to foreshadow major events in the series. Can anyone think of anywhere in the series to look for supporting quotes?

There are a number of double-crossing options that could be thrown in here to add extra wrinkles to the story. Rand could turn to the Dark Side to gain the DO's trust and then double-cross him. Or Rand, using information from Herid Fel and Min, could manage to convince Moridin that the DO will always inevitably lose at the end of each Age. I could see Moridin switching sides if the philosophical argument is 100% foolproof, but overall this seems pretty unlikely. Would be an interesting direction to take the story though.

So what do you guys think?

Oh yeah, since I don't post here often I should probably introduce myself briefly. I've been lurking on theoryland for years now (since around the CoT release) but rarely post anything. Hi!

amazinglarry

Terez 08-09-2010 02:25 PM

This was brought up right after TGS; the problem is that channeling the True Power at Shayol Ghul supposedly burns you to a crisp if you try it.

Ieyasu 08-09-2010 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amazinglarry (Post 105652)
So what do you guys think?

In TGS, LTT said "something has to touch" he himself used saidin and the result was an imperfect seal and tainted saidin. Rand muses if it could be as simple as repeating what LTT did but using both powers, or if that would have just tainted both halves of the power. So it may be possible.

amazinglarry 08-09-2010 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 105653)
This was brought up right after TGS; the problem is that channeling the True Power at Shayol Ghul supposedly burns you to a crisp if you try it.

Yeah, I remember this interview quote...that could be a problem. But the Rand-Moridin link adds another dimension. I wonder if Rand could channel the TP near Shayol Ghul safely if he used Moridin as a conduit while Moridin was located somewhere far away? Or could Rand effectively fry Moridin by reaching through him to channel the TP while Moridin was at SG?

amazinglarry

nameless 08-09-2010 03:35 PM

I think the foreshadowing points to Fain being the trick to resealing the Dark One. It seems unlikely that the DO would allow his own essence to be used against him, even if it meant cutting Moridin off from the TP for a little while. The problem is, as Ieyasu posted, that some part of the prison has to come into direct contact with the Dark One and if that part is made of the One Power you end up with a repeat scenario of what happened in the Age of Legends when the Source became tainted. Based on what happened with Rand's wound and at the Cleansing I think the ultimate solution will be to throw Fain into the prison and let him act as a buffer between the Dark One and the True Source so that he's the only thing that gets tainted.

Tamyrlin 08-09-2010 03:35 PM

I think there is one in the queue
 
But it was not very well developed, so I haven't posted it yet.

4Alethinos 08-09-2010 03:40 PM

It was my understanding of Herid Fel's statement that he was referring to the remaining seals to the prison not all of which are destroyed or broken.

We have debated long and hard about the extent to which the prison itself is damaged. I confess that it is not clear to me based upon the evidence just how or how much it may be damaged. What we are pretty sure about is that the Pattern was not a part of the prison per se. It was more like a moat about the castle walls and not necessarily in contact with the prison itself.

Since only the One Power was used to make the Bore, it seems that only the OP need be used to seal it up.

The TP is from the DO only and may or may not be needed to seal it. It may be needed to force the DO back so that the Bore can be closed by other means.

Another question is: Did Ishamael use a TP based balefire during the battle in Tear and Callandor was invulnerable to it? If so to the former, then it is likely that it is a tool to be used in defense against the DO at Shayul Ghul.

I have no clue how anyone mortal can duplicate or rebuild a prison made by the creator. When this universe was created.

amazinglarry 08-09-2010 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Alethinos (Post 105660)
I have no clue how anyone mortal can duplicate or rebuild a prison made by the creator. When this universe was created.

To clarify, I was basically equating breaking the seals with destroying the prison. I suppose it's not a given that the two things are one in the same. Is it known whether the seals hold together the entire prison or just the seal that was placed on the bore by LTT? From the encyclopaedia WOT entry on the seals I got the impression that it was the whole prison, but I didn't look up the relevant passages in the books...

Either way, I don't really think it affects the general idea of the TP being used to seal up the DO.

Fain as a buffer between the DO and the OP makes sense given how Shadar Logoth was used to negate the taint during the cleansing and his expected Gollum-like role. It seems to me like using the same concept twice, though, something I wouldn't predict of Jordan.

amazinglarry

iokepa 08-09-2010 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 105658)
The problem is, as Ieyasu posted, that some part of the prison has to come into direct contact with the Dark One and if that part is made of the One Power you end up with a repeat scenario of what happened in the Age of Legends when the Source became tainted.

It wasn't the source that became tainted, but merely the male half. You can tell from the books, and quotes from the man himself that women and men need to work together to achieve anything really great...like taking out the DO.

That was one of the serious flaws in LTT's attempt - it was only men. I guess you could argue that if women and men had attempted to seal the Bore together then the whole One Power would have been tainted, but that's hard to prove IMO.

I'm not saying that Fain won't play a part..although I hope he doesn't become the WoT gollum by being thrown into anything resembling a volcano.

Terez 08-09-2010 07:22 PM

I'm sure if RJ does that he will put a nice twist on it for us.

Neilbert 08-09-2010 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iokepa (Post 105676)
That was one of the serious flaws in LTT's attempt - it was only men. I guess you could argue that if women and men had attempted to seal the Bore together then the whole One Power would have been tainted, but that's hard to prove IMO.

You could argue it, or you could just look up the interview quote where RJ explicitly states that if women had been involved then saidar would have been tainted too.

Kalli 08-10-2010 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Alethinos (Post 105660)
Since only the One Power was used to make the Bore, it seems that only the OP need be used to seal it up.

The TP is from the DO only and may or may not be needed to seal it. It may be needed to force the DO back so that the Bore can be closed by other means.

Now I know I don't post much and I've lurked for years but...

I've heard RJ describe the wheel as being more like a spiral... No channelers, then channelers the the Dark one then a battle and he gets resealed, and everyone forgets about channeling... etc. etc. etc.

So from there I think it kinda goes into the biggest question we'll never know about (in a non-plot line perspective.) Did the creator create the world with a with a thinness over the Dark ones prison?

Just my opinion but I think he did. Otherwise we would most likely be seeing a linear world and not a 'spiral' world... So if the spiral is to continue and it's not really the last battle then it will be patched. If it is the LAST BATTLE then the Dark one must be killed or Rand must do what the Creator did not....

I don't think so.

iokepa 08-10-2010 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neilbert (Post 105681)
You could argue it, or you could just look up the interview quote where RJ explicitly states that if women had been involved then saidar would have been tainted too.

Oops! That's what I get for posting before I'm done reading through the interview database.

*runs into the woods to keep reading*

nameless 08-10-2010 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iokepa
I'm not saying that Fain won't play a part..although I hope he doesn't become the WoT gollum by being thrown into anything resembling a volcano

If Fain is paralleled with any Tolkien character, it's Grima Wormtongue, which would make his ultimate role to be the one who kills Ishamael (Saruman). Diving into a volcano to chase after his shiny jeweled dagger may or may not happen afterwards.

Terez 08-10-2010 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 105795)
If Fain is paralleled with any Tolkien character, it's Grima Wormtongue, which would make his ultimate role to be the one who kills Ishamael (Saruman). Diving into a volcano to chase after his shiny jeweled dagger may or may not happen afterwards.

The beauty of RJ is that:
Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ

Question from Sil7ver: Is it true that many of your characters are based on Norse mythos?
RJ: Not many. Some. And no character is purely based on one myth or one legend.

For example: three obvious Merlin parallels are: Thom Merrilin, the Amyrlin Seat (and Tamyrlin), and Moiraine. Thom and Moiraine are both Gandalf parallels, and Gandalf was himself a Merlin parallel. Moiraine is also Morgan Le Fay. Morgause was Le Fay's sister, but Morgase is only Moiraine's sister by virtue of having married her brother. Both Morgase and Elayne are Guinevere parallels, and Nynaeve too. I could go on and on, but it gets complicated, and I'm hardly an expert on the legends, or Tolkien (I've read Tolkien, but it's been years, and I only read the trilogy+1). Oh yeah, and Gawyn is both Gawain and Mordred. ;) Probably some other things too, like a bit of Judas or other betrayer roles.

greatwolf 08-11-2010 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kalli (Post 105751)
If it is the LAST BATTLE then the Dark one must be killed or Rand must do what the Creator did not....

I don't think so.


Why not? There's liberty to think here, its TL! Though I don't see Rand doing it (LT can, not Rand) it might just be that the creator intended for the dragon to finish what he started. LT's musings about the Creator moving on and leaving men to sort things as they will, comes to mind here.


It's unlikely in the series since RJ has said that the nature of time is circular, but iirc, he never said it was impossible to break the wheel. Its interesting even if it doesn't happen.

E: FWIW, I disagree with LTT. Even an artist who makes a work of art tends to revisit and enjoy what he made occasionally. There's no reason the creator shouldn't return to see how things are progressing. Even if he plays no part.

GonzoTheGreat 08-11-2010 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 105820)
E: FWIW, I disagree with LTT. Even an artist who makes a work of art tends to revisit and enjoy what he made occasionally. There's no reason the creator shouldn't return to see how things are progressing. Even if he plays no part.

That's what he said, isn't it:
Quote:

I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
Of course, could still be the DO, after all.
He may be reasoning that the last of the Ones Chosen to Rule will be the Chosen One.

Ieyasu 08-11-2010 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 105820)
Why not? There's liberty to think here, its TL! Though I don't see Rand doing it (LT can, not Rand) it might just be that the creator intended for the dragon to finish what he started. LT's musings about the Creator moving on and leaving men to sort things as they will, comes to mind here.


It's unlikely in the series since RJ has said that the nature of time is circular, but iirc, he never said it was impossible to break the wheel. Its interesting even if it doesn't happen.

E: FWIW, I disagree with LTT. Even an artist who makes a work of art tends to revisit and enjoy what he made occasionally. There's no reason the creator shouldn't return to see how things are progressing. Even if he plays no part.

It wasnt LTT's thought, reread it.

halo6819 08-13-2010 11:04 AM

i have always imagined the more as a wound in the side of the DO's prison, and the seals are a cork.
e.g. your shot in the arm and some one decides to stop the bleeding by sticking a cork in it. sure it may work for a while, but eventual the cork erodes and we have the same problem. as many have said, how can a man duplicate what the creator has done, i say he cant. instead he must pull the cork out and then stitch the healthy ends of the prison together.

Neilbert 08-13-2010 05:29 PM

Unless it was made to be duplicated by mankind.


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