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Abraxas 08-19-2010 12:27 PM

Question of Need
 
Got a stupid question and wonder if someone might know the answer either offhand or in theory.

What was the "Need" that Elayne and Nynaeve almost found in Tar Valon before running off and finding the Bowl of the Winds? Was it ever revealed or evidenced?

For it to be more important than the Bowl, wouldn't it have to be something world-changing, like one of the Rods of Dominion?

I can't seem to find anything about it anywhere. Is it possible, however unlikely, that it's the BUT?

Bayle 08-19-2010 12:59 PM

I'll have to go back and read the section today - But off the top of my head, maybe the Horn of Valere? I don't think it was ever made clear why they jumped to different places - I always took it as they were more finely focusing their "need" and eventually got to exactly what they wanted.

Abraxas 08-19-2010 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bayle (Post 106439)
I'll have to go back and read the section today - But off the top of my head, maybe the Horn of Valere? I don't think it was ever made clear why they jumped to different places - I always took it as they were more finely focusing their "need" and eventually got to exactly what they wanted.

The answer to that is simpler. They had need and it ended them in Tar Valon. They knew they'd never make it into the Tower, so they focused on "need not in Tar Valon" (paraphrase).

While the Horn is a possibility, my gut reaction is that there's no likely way the Horn of Valere is their need (need is generally very personal, and clearly is Mat's need if anyone's).

iokepa 08-19-2010 01:28 PM

@Abraxas

Good question, I don't know the answer - but I would love to hear the speculation.

While I don't know what it was, it couldn't have been one of the 'Rods of Dominion', as they were offices held in the Age of Legends, not actual items.

Quote:

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Question Part 1: I have a question about the Nine Rods of Dominion. We have a couple of references to this, and Ishamael says that Lews Therin summoned the Nine Rods of Dominion, and theories have been floating around. Are the Oath Rods not the Nine Rods of Dominion?
Jordan: They were not the Oath Rods.
Question Part 2: Well are they positions of power? Were they people, or were they actual rods?
Jordan: They were actual people, and they were, but you might call them regional governors of the earth, regional governors of the planet. So if I say, summon them, then we've got a guy who has been given in effect ultimate power.

Abraxas 08-19-2010 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iokepa (Post 106441)
@Abraxas

Good question, I don't know the answer - but I would love to hear the speculation.

While I don't know what it was, it couldn't have been one of the 'Rods of Dominion', as they were offices held in the Age of Legends, not actual items.

Oh... Touche.

Guess there goes my long-held hope of a male parallel to oath rods that were once used to keep control of other men (possibly criminals) who could channel.

So what's left? A sa'angreal, a ter'angreal, or knowledge. I can think of nothing else that would draw them to the store-room.

If it's a sa'angreal, it's got to be one of the "big" ones. Were there any female ones mentioned that are stronger than the fluted rod? Could they have actually found the fluted rod? It just doesn't seem to fit their need since it ends up being used elsewhere.

Could it be the horn? That's a possibility but I still think Mat makes it less of a "wondergirl" need.

I'm somewhat clueless as to what it is, but can only imagine that any need that was greater than the Bowl during the Summer-from-hell must be truly great indeed.

iokepa 08-19-2010 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraxas (Post 106444)
I'm somewhat clueless as to what it is, but can only imagine that any need that was greater than the Bowl during the Summer-from-hell must be truly great indeed.

I guess that's the key to this mystery then. Figuring out what greater 'need' did the Dream World sense from the wonder girls.

I can see why we would go to the Horn as a likely item in the Tower, but I agree with you that it doesn't seem to fit when we consider what the girls' needed vs. just what might be in the Tower.

...I've got to think on this one more.

Abraxas 08-19-2010 02:20 PM

Is this obscure and unmentioned enough to be the BUT?

iokepa 08-19-2010 02:23 PM

I guess I'm to new to know what BUT stands for...? :confused:

Abraxas 08-19-2010 02:26 PM

Assuming it's the BUT (might not be/probably isn't, but just to theorize)... something related to it has to continue (not dwindle) for the rest of the series...

That is, the need cannot have been reduced.

It might be Male-Sa' #2, but the girls don't need that.

It could be Girl-Sa' #2, but why would the girls particularly need it?

It might be a Ter'Angreal more specific than the weather one. Maybe one that suppresses TDO's touch on the world in a more general way?

It might be knowledge. The last of Corianin Nedeal's notes? Seems to be a stretch.

It might be something we have never gotten any evidence exists to know to look for it? I like to hope the huge reveal won't be that.

Abraxas 08-19-2010 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iokepa (Post 106450)
I guess I'm to new to know what BUT stands for...? :confused:

BUT = "Big Unnoticed Thing". I only learned the term a few days ago.

Probably the biggest tidbit Brandon has ever given us. He likens it to the Big Spoiler in the Mistborn series.

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index....tml#msg1630892

(WARNING: If you haven't read the Misborn trilogy and plan to, the Big Spoiler is mentioned somewhere near the end of that thread)

ShadowbaneX 08-19-2010 02:35 PM

KISS probably applies here. It could quite well be another ter'angreal, perhaps even another Bowl of Winds, but since it was in the Tower, and there was no way Elayne and Nynaeve would be able to get to it there, they focused on something else.

As for the missing bit that Brandon referenced, well, he also said that object showed up here in there in pretty much every book since it was first brought up. The object of Need in the Tower has never been brought up since then, so that sorta discounts whatever this thing is, being involved.

iokepa 08-19-2010 02:48 PM

@Abraxas:

Gotcha. I had read about that, I just hadn't seen it abbreviated. And thanks for the warning, but I have read the Mistborn series. I thought they were quiet enjoyable...

Nazbaque 08-19-2010 03:28 PM

Well it could be that what they needed was Mat himself and they just didn't focus properly so TAR brought them to the Horn.

Abraxas 08-19-2010 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 106461)
Well it could be that what they needed was Mat himself and they just didn't focus properly so TAR brought them to the Horn.

Dunno. That doesn't fit the M.O. of need. And they got to a different need by wanting "need, not in the tower".

I think there was something they really needed there. I suspect they still need it but have no evidence (except that's one pretty big plotline to cut off unresolved)

Weird Harold 08-19-2010 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 106455)
KISS probably applies here. It could quite well be another ter'angreal, perhaps even another Bowl of Winds, but since it was in the Tower, and there was no way Elayne and Nynaeve would be able to get to it there, they focused on something else.

LoC Ch 13
"... She put her hands on Nynaeve’s shoulders, and Nynaeve let herself be sat down on her bed. Elayne took the other opposite her and leaned forward intently. "You remember what you told me about using need to find something in Tel’aran’rhiod? What we need is a way to convince the Hall not to go to Elaida."
Loc Ch13
Nynaeve checked her own garments and sighed. ... "You realize this might not work," she said, changing to good plain Two Rivers woolens and stout shoes. Elayne had no right to smile that way. A silver bow. Ha! "We’re supposed to have some idea at least of what we’re looking for, something about it."

"It will have to do, Nynaeve. According to you, the Wise Ones said the stronger the need the better, and we surely need something, or the help we promised Rand is going to vanish except for whatever Elaida is willing to give. I won’t let that happen, Nynaeve. I will not."

"Put your chin down. Neither will I, if there’s anything we can do about it. We might as well get on with this." Linking hands with Elayne, Nynaeve closed her eyes. Need. She hoped some part of her had some notion what it was they needed. Maybe nothing would happen. Need. Suddenly everything seemed to slide around her; she felt Tel’aran’rhiod tilt and swoop.
Loc Ch 13
Elayne gave her a wry look. "But if we try again, won’t it just bring us right back here? Unless... Unless the Wise Ones told you how to exclude a place from the search."

They had not – they had not been eager to tell her anything at all – but in a place where you open a lock by thinking it was open, anything should be possible. "That’s exactly what we do. We fix it in our heads that what we want isn’t in Tar Valon." Frowning at the shelves, she added, "And I’ll wager it is a ter’angreal nobody knows how to use." Though how that would convince the Hall to support Rand, she could not imagine.

"We need a ter’angreal that isn’t in Tar Valon," Elayne said as if convincing herself. "Very well. We go on."

She held out her hands, and after a moment Nynaeve took them. Nynaeve was not sure how she had become the one to insist on continuing. She wanted to leave Salidar, not find a reason to stay. But if it assured that the Salidar Aes Sedai would support Rand...

Need. A ter’angreal. Not in Tar Valon. Need.

I think it is fairly clear that Elyane and Nyneave didn't formulate their NEED very well on the first try. Even on the second try with a much more concrete NEED, Nyneave, at least, wasn't totally focused on what they needed, (a ter'angreal not in Tar Valon;) her "need" to leave Salidar possibly had as much influence on the solution they found as Elayne's focus on helping Rand.

In the end, the BotW didn't help provide Rand the Aes Sedai support they promised Rand, so their intended NEED wasn't what T'A'R led them to a solution for. It partly fulfilled Nyneave's need to get out of Salidar, and it definitely helped Rand by ending the "endless summer," but I don't see how it helped in what they said they needed;

FWIW, the Horn of Valere wasn't in that storeroom. both of them knew what the Horn and it's chest look like after traveling all the way from Falme with it and Mat.

Ieyasu 08-19-2010 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 106463)
FWIW, the Horn of Valere wasn't in that storeroom. both of them knew what the Horn and it's chest look like after traveling all the way from Falme with it and Mat.

FYI Verin brought the horn to the Tower in a sack, not the chest, and we have no idea what room it is stored in. I doubt it is in the store room, but its exact location is unknown, so the storeroom is a viable option.

I think the first needed item was the Oath Rod.

Weird Harold 08-19-2010 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 106470)
FYI Verin brought the horn to the Tower in a sack, not the chest,

Sack, chest, or wrapped in Verin's dirty bloomers, the girls still traveled across most of a continent with it and would have recognised it if it were in the storeroom.

nameless 08-20-2010 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraxas (Post 106444)
Guess there goes my long-held hope of a male parallel to oath rods that were once used to keep control of other men (possibly criminals) who could channel.

Sammael claimed that there used to be things called "binding chairs" that served the same function as Oath Rods but worked on anyone, man or woman, whether or not they could channel. Of course, at the time he was trying to convince Sevanna that he could sell her a way to control Rand, so there's no telling whether any of it was actually true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abraxas
So what's left? A sa'angreal, a ter'angreal, or knowledge. I can think of nothing else that would draw them to the store-room.

If it's a sa'angreal, it's got to be one of the "big" ones. Were there any female ones mentioned that are stronger than the fluted rod? Could they have actually found the fluted rod? It just doesn't seem to fit their need since it ends up being used elsewhere.

Could it be the horn? That's a possibility but I still think Mat makes it less of a "wondergirl" need.

I'm somewhat clueless as to what it is, but can only imagine that any need that was greater than the Bowl during the Summer-from-hell must be truly great indeed.

It could have been a similar weather-control device. They were common enough in the Age of Legends that more than one might have survived the Breaking.

Abraxas 08-20-2010 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 106475)
It could have been a similar weather-control device. They were common enough in the Age of Legends that more than one might have survived the Breaking.

Would RJ have left a loose-end like that? I can honestly see the "first need" as one of few character actions that make you go "huh?" that was never resolved while not being out of the scope of the series altogether.

Bayle 08-20-2010 12:03 PM

The more I think about it, Weird Harold is right the first "Need" is more than likely resolved by them just being in the Tower, end of story. - They don't really fully understand what they are doing, and they only think "need" not enough specifics - later they add Ter'angreal and Not in the Tower which narrows the search.

Their first need applies to both of them - perhaps their need to be Aes Sedai (for realz!) and all that comes with that?


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