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-   -   Jason Denzel's (of Dragonmount) Towers of Midnight Review (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4009)

jana 10-10-2010 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 115856)
Nynaeve and Lan both will enter the Tower of Ghenjei and I suspect cause grave harm.

I sort of want to make this my signature.

Bluedust 10-10-2010 09:26 PM

Terez is trying to get her name out there in the WoT community, so she takes hardline stances, and makes sure she's on every site, mentioned, etc. That's all admirable. We all have aspirations.

Felix just posts timecube.com garbage that makes no sense, yet no one fully calls him on it because I guess they feel he has downs or aspergers and feels bad, I dunno but I think it's tiring seeing him posting so many threads with nonsense.

Edit: Just to clarify, I've said since before TGS Rand would be pulled out of TAR, so I agree with Terez, I just think Alivia will be the one to balefire him when he's dying, only for an Occam's Razor type thing. But that's a detail we'll never know until we actually read the book. Most of Terez's theories make sense at least. When she starts saying Bayle Domon is a ta'veren, hero of the horn, master swordsman, and bannerman for the Dragon, then I'll agree she needs criticized. I do agree she can be very cunty to people but that's admirable IMO.

Edit 2: Another reason I don't think Moiraine will do it is because of the mentioning on her strength in the Power and how people feel Be'lal could be grabbed by the DO because RJ mentioned it depends on the strength of the balefire. Alivia has been described over and over as being incredibly strong in the Power, it just adds another layer if you assume Moiraine will do it, and right now we don't have any evidence for it, so like I said before, Occam's Razor. I won't just completely dismiss the possibility though.

Terez 10-10-2010 09:30 PM

I think I have Asperger's. Downs is a totally different thing, and Felix doesn't really fit the bill. He seems more like a paranoid schizophrenic to me. Bipolar maybe? We should ask Ivhon to diagnose him.

Bluedust 10-10-2010 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 115955)
I think I have Asperger's. Downs is a totally different thing, and Felix doesn't really fit the bill. He seems more like a paranoid schizophrenic to me. Bipolar maybe? We should ask Ivhon to diagnose him.

I dunno, I put up with Felix but that last post drove me over the edge, that and his post on Valan Luca being the bannerman for the Dragon or some nonsense. He's obviously some joke account, and while you come off as really direct for most people, and that seems to bother them, you at least make sense and form coherent thoughts.

greebo 10-10-2010 11:18 PM

just a feeling...
 
I don't know, but i just re-read "To the Tower of Genjei" in tSR. I think (with no real evidence other than a hope and a feeling) that Gaidal is in the Tower.
Birgette speaks of how hard it is to leave in the waking world, and nearly impossible in TAR and just after that comes Gaidal's shadow. Shortly after, he disappears from TAR. They're ALWAYS together- that's been made abundantly clear, and events seem to have made this impossible, so there's something more, is all I'm sayin.

Bluedust 10-10-2010 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greebo (Post 115980)
I don't know, but i just re-read "To the Tower of Genjei" in tSR. I think (with no real evidence other than a hope and a feeling) that Gaidal is in the Tower.
Birgette speaks of how hard it is to leave in the waking world, and nearly impossible in TAR and just after that comes Gaidal's shadow. Shortly after, he disappears from TAR. They're ALWAYS together- that's been made abundantly clear, and events seem to have made this impossible, so there's something more, is all I'm sayin.


TAR is the Dream world. If we're too assume, it's inbetween the world (Maybe all worlds? We won't know til the encyclopedia). Finnland is a Parallel World. So the only way he'd be there is if he were born there.

Tamyrlin 10-10-2010 11:49 PM

Unless
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluedust (Post 115989)
TAR is the Dream world. If we're too assume, it's inbetween the world (Maybe all worlds? We won't know til the encyclopedia). Finnland is a Parallel World. So the only way he'd be there is if he were born there.

...Moghedien used her trick to push him out of T'A'R of Finnland into Finnland where Demandred was waiting to bond him...

:)

Bluedust 10-10-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 115990)
...Moghedien used her trick to push him out of T'A'R of Finnland into Finnland where Demandred was waiting to bond him...

:)

And then Valan Luca seductively caressed him? Okay I'll stop.

greebo 10-10-2010 11:54 PM

Birgette states quite clearly that it's possible to enter the tower in TAR. We've already seen one way to be torn away- there's no reason to believe that it can't be done in the Tower as well, since it can be accessed from both the waking world AND TAR. After all, didn't Birgette say that that was where the heroes went to await rebirth? She was clearly there, and so was Gaidal, even though the only glimpse Perrin caught was his shadow.
Also, lol @ Tam- that would be a mess we don't need to contemplate!

greebo 10-11-2010 12:00 AM

I always kind of suspected that about Luca :)

Tamyrlin 10-11-2010 12:09 AM

Ok - so I should mention this quote...
 
Quote:

A Crown of Swords book tour 9 October 1996, Dunwoody, GA - Erica Sadun reporting

Q: Also, what was going on in Aelfland when Mat went round and round and round the same location? Were they traveling in time?

RJ: Not traveling in time. the physical laws of nature differ. Mentioning the Dark One here is bad luck. In Aelfland, it is really bad. You can not go to Aelfland in Tel'aran'rhiod (similar to stedding).
An interesting answer - it seems that he is saying you can't use T'A'R's traveling capabilities to travel into stedding-like zones that appear to extend into T'A'R. However, I wonder if this means that you cannot open a gateway from Aelfland into T'A'R...or use the dream Ter'angreal within Aelfland to get into T'A'R...

Anyway.

greebo 10-11-2010 12:13 AM

you knw, I think I actually read that response, but it's been so long ago that I completely forgot about it! In a way that puts paid to my particulair thought, but I still (in true WoT fan style) probably won't let it go any time real soon- lol. I just have a great deal of sympathy for my favorite Hero, and am wondering if her needs can be answered in a non-tragic way, i guess.

Bluedust 10-11-2010 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 115996)
An interesting answer - it seems that he is saying you can't use T'A'R's traveling capabilities to travel into stedding-like zones that appear to extend into T'A'R. However, I wonder if this means that you cannot open a gateway from Aelfland into T'A'R...or use the dream Ter'angreal within Aelfland to get into T'A'R...

Anyway.

What it means is that spot in the Pattern isn't actually physically there. So we can assume Parallel Worlds all have their own Patterns or something else. There's really no other way to interpret it. We know the Finns and Ogier homeland are parallel, we also know the the Blight isn't in the TAR the main chars know. So we can reasonably assume what that means.

Tamyrlin 10-11-2010 12:29 AM

I don't know...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluedust (Post 116000)
What it means is that spot in the Pattern isn't actually physically there. So we can assume Parallel Worlds all have their own Patterns or something else. There's really no other way to interpret it. We know the Finns and Ogier homeland are parallel, we also know the the Blight isn't in the TAR the main chars know. So we can reasonably assume what that means.

I translate it differently. He singles out Aelfland as though it creates a stedding like effect in it's T'A'R Permanent Reflection. Not that T'A'R Aelfland doesn't exist, but that all of the T'A'R properties such as the ability to travel by thought, don't extend into the Permanent Reflection of Aelfland. And I don't believe such can be extrapolated to include all Parallel Worlds, as "Randland" can be considered a "Parallel World" as such worlds seem to simply be Jordan's way of grouping worlds in different universes inhabited by soul'd inhabitants. Comparing these to the blight/shayol ghul wouldn't work in the sense that those are connected to a force that destroys the Pattern, and therefore their connection or lack of to T'A'R can be explained by the Dark One's presence.

Bluedust 10-11-2010 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 116004)
I translate it differently. He singles out Aelfland as though it creates a stedding like effect in it's T'A'R Permanent Reflection. Not that T'A'R Aelfland doesn't exist, but that all of the T'A'R properties such as the ability to travel by thought, don't extend into the Permanent Reflection of Aelfland. And I don't believe such can be extrapolated to include all Parallel Worlds, as "Randland" can be considered a "Parallel World" as such worlds seem to simply be Jordan's way of grouping worlds in different universes inhabited by soul'd inhabitants. Comparing these to the blight/shayol ghul wouldn't work in the sense that those are connected to a force that destroys the Pattern, and therefore their connection or lack of to T'A'R can be explained by the Dark One's presence.

We all know Shai'tan is destroying the Pattern. I agree with what you're saying. I was just trying to point out that "Odd" points in certain areas of the Pattern don't show up "right there". It's definitely a hard thing to discuss and understand since we really have no clue.

But since you can't enter a Stedding, Finnland OR the Blight in TAR it shows a certain order to the Pattern.

Sodas 10-11-2010 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 115996)
An interesting answer - it seems that he is saying you can't use T'A'R's traveling capabilities to travel into stedding-like zones that appear to extend into T'A'R. However, I wonder if this means that you cannot open a gateway from Aelfland into T'A'R...or use the dream Ter'angreal within Aelfland to get into T'A'R...

Anyway.

Or the one reporting it made a mistake. That's why you must take 3rd party signing reports with a grain of salt.

greebo 10-11-2010 02:00 AM

I still maintain that if the TAR Birgette said that it's nearly impossible to escape the Tower in TAR (or the wolf dream, but she seems present either way), then there MUST have been some way to get there in the first place- unless it was one of those cases where RJ developed the theory furher after that particuliar exchange took place.

1Powerslave 10-11-2010 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greebo (Post 116020)
I still maintain that if the TAR Birgette said that it's nearly impossible to escape the Tower in TAR (or the wolf dream, but she seems present either way), then there MUST have been some way to get there in the first place- unless it was one of those cases where RJ developed the theory furher after that particuliar exchange took place.

I think you've come up with a pretty good pet theory in Gaidal Cain disappearing into the Tower of Ghenjei and will be rescued by Mat and co.

Slayer entered the Tower of Ghenjei from TAR once. Though him doing that is suspect if it is supposedly so difficult to escape back out again. Makes you wonder if there is some alliance between the Snakes and Foxes and the Shadow. A treaty perhaps. ;)

One thing I thought about in regards to the above discussion about parallell worlds (--> Finnland) and travelling, is that it is impossible to Travel there using the common weave for Travelling inherit in how that weave is said to work. E.g. folding the pattern, boring hole, making things same. Folding the pattern should be impossible with a parallell world (another plane, so to speak). Making things same should be extremely demanding, the worlds being so alien to one another (but perhaps it was possible to make a ter'angreal that did it by this method). This should explain the need for the Tower of Ghenjei and the Doorframe ter'angreal to travel between the worlds.
I would also venture a guess that the ter'angreal are Aes Sedai work, and the Tower of Ghenjei is Finns work.

jana 10-11-2010 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1Powerslave (Post 116039)
Slayer entered the Tower of Ghenjei from TAR once. Though him doing that is suspect if it is supposedly so difficult to escape back out again. Makes you wonder if there is some alliance between the Snakes and Foxes and the Shadow. A treaty perhaps. ;)

Perrin thought he entered it. When Perrin reached it, Slayer had disappeared. I asked Brandon whether Slayer actually entered and he said that he had asked the same thing when writing the book, and his reply to me was "RAFO."

Tamyrlin 10-11-2010 09:34 AM

I'm ok with that in this report
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodas (Post 116018)
Or the one reporting it made a mistake. That's why you must take 3rd party signing reports with a grain of salt.

As I don't know if it was paraphrased - if it was, it is suspect. Obviously, the ones that were taped, along with the online chats and weekly answers Jordan gave, are worthy of our trust.

Jordan said Aelfland - As for the Tower of Ghenjei, we don't know where it takes the person that enters, so such an entrance is not precluded, even if we took the answer as 100% correct.


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