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dfchang813 10-29-2010 11:36 PM

I don't know, the dreams must have come pretty late because even in this book Amys still thinks the Seanchan needs to be wiped out. A year and a day and all that.

Her attitude is identical to Aviendha's and them majority of the Aiel and is what eventually leads to the Aiel's destruction in the future.

I think it is Aviendha's destiny to convince the rest of the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs to change thier minds about how to handle the Seanchan. I'm now pretty sure that she will eventually force all of them to walk through the modified crystal columns to change their collective future.

Also, the Dreamers can not control what prophetic dreams they get. There's no evidence so far to suggest that they have dreamed anything relating to what they must do AFTER the Last Battle. The prophecy is that a remnant of a remnant will be saved after the Last Battle. The implication is that the Last Battle will decimate the Aiel but now we see that this "remnant of a remant" will happen many generations later with a very bad ending for them.

There's also really two different issues.

One is what the Aiel should do after the Last Battle in terms of staying in Randland or returning to the Three-Fold Land.

The other is what to do with the Seanchan.

The two are related but still distinct issues.

Nakomi is addressing the first while Aviendha's visions through the crystal columns impact the second.

I'm not sure right now ANYONE with the exception of Aviendha knows the particular future awaiting the Aiel after the Last Battle.

Dennis

Tamyrlin 10-30-2010 12:05 AM

Ok - So I grabbed the quotes :)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120527)
I don't know, the dreams must have come pretty late because even in this book Amys still thinks the Seanchan needs to be wiped out. A year and a day and all that.

What Aviendha sees can be interpreted many ways as to what the solution is to change that outcome. And that is a separate theory, but worth discussion too in another thread. But I disagree with your interpretation of what needs to be done about the Seanchan.


Quote:

Also, the Dreamers can not control what prophetic dreams they get. There's no evidence so far to suggest that they have dreamed anything relating to what they must do AFTER the Last Battle. The prophecy is that a remnant of a remnant will be saved after the Last Battle. The implication is that the Last Battle will decimate the Aiel but now we see that this "remnant of a remant" will happen many generations later with a very bad ending for them.
Dreamers and Dreamwalking can often come together as Talents, but TSR tells us distinct things about the abilities of the Wise Ones.

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"Why do you call him that?" Moiraine asked when he was out of earshot. "One Man. Do you know him?" "We know of him, Aes Sedai." Amys made the title sound an address between equals. "The last of the Malkieri. The man who will not give up his war against the Shadow though his nation is long destroyed by it. There is much honor in him. I knew from the dream that if you came, it was almost certain Aan'allein would as well, but I did not know he obeyed you."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"He is my Warder," Moiraine said simply. Egwene thought the Aes Sedai was troubled despite her tone, and she knew why. Almost certain Lan would come with Moiraine? Lan always followed Moiraine; he would follow her into the Pit of Doom without blinking. Nearly as interesting to Egwene was "if you came." Had the Wise Ones known they were coming or not? Perhaps interpreting the Dream was not as straightforward as she hoped. She was about to ask, when Bair spoke.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
Amys sighed and set aside her cup of wine, but it was Bair who spoke. "Much is uncertain, even to a dream walker. Amys and Melaine are the best of us, and even they do not see all that is, or all that can be."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"And what did you see if I do not go?" Bair's wrinkled face was expressionless, but sympathy touched her pale blue eyes. "We have told too much already, Moiraine. What a dream walker sees is what is likely to happen, not what surely will. Those who move with too much knowledge of the future inevitably find disaster, whether from complacency at what they think must come or in their efforts to change it."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
You must learn to find what you need to find and read what you see, to enter the dreams of another close by in order to aid healing, to recognize those who are in the dream fully enough to harm you, to. ..."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 25 - The Road to the Spear
"Some. Most. I have talked to my sisters in the dream, and we have all dreamed the same dream. The chiefs who do not come, and those who do not agree . . . . Their septs will die, Mandein. Within three generations they will be dust, and their holds and cattle belong to other septs. Their names will be lost."
These quotes make it clear that the Wise Ones are capable of reading the dreams and knowing what is likely to occur. It seems obvious that they are reading Aviendha's future and know what is likely to occur. And that they discuss their dreams and it would appear they are able to interpret them with a good deal of certainty in some cases.

Nothing said by Amys here makes me think that she doesn't understand what the Aiel need to survive.

Quote:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin
Amys nodded, looking back at Corana. "Do not think that we will ignore this insult, Corana. Vengeance will come. Once this war is done, the Seanchan will feel the storm of our arrows and the tips of our spears. But not until after. Go tell the two clan chiefs what you have told me."
They know the future of the Aiel is in the hands of Rand and Aviendha, which is why they have been guiding Aviendha for some time now, and that it is not a factor of how many spears or arrows they use against the Seanchan.

But I'm happy to discuss the the meaning of what Aviendha saw in a separate discussion, but it is not directly pertinent to my theory that the Wise Ones guided Aviendha through the dream because they knew what she was likely to encounter in Rhuidean and that it would have repercussions on the survival of their people.

dfchang813 10-30-2010 12:24 AM

I just don't have the same interpretation as you at all.

From what I can gather from Aviendha's thoughts, the trip to the crystal towers appear to be nothing more than a formality . . . an anticlimactic moment if you will since the truth of the Aiel's past is now common knowledge. She goes on in detail about how she worries that the ritual will have lost all relevance.

I don't get the feeling at all reading the rest of the Wise Ones' viewpoints in the Gathering Storm that they think Aviendha will learn ANYTHING new or important on her trip to Rhuidean. In fact, I'm very convinced that they had NO IDEA that she would do what she did to those columns or that she would catch a glimpse of the Aiel people's future destruction. There is no evidence that they even dreamed this.

I had thought that Aviendha's importance was simply to become Rand's lover and bear his children so that he would finally know his blood and be more invested in the Aiel other than simply as as weapon.

Your quotes reinforce the fact that dreams are difficult to interpret and only give a partial picture. They can guide you but following them too literally can be disastrous.

Also, at this point, I have absolutely no idea what the best way to deal with the Seanchan really is. I do not think that the Aiel going to war against them is going to work.

From everything we have read, AFTER the Last Battle, the Aiel are ready to start blood feud with the Seanchan whatever anyone else thinks. Indeed this is what happens in the visions Avi has. And that leads directly to their destruction within about 4 or 5 generations. A remant of a remant is all that is left by that time.

Your theory seems to be that the sequence with Nakomi was engineered by the Wise Ones and I just have no idea why they would do that instead of just TELLING Aviendha what they think should be done. I don't see any explicit evidence in the books to suggest that they would think Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean would be anything special or worthy of extra attention. In fact, I don't even see any evidence to suggest that they dreamed Aviendha would be of any particular importance other than as a reasonably young and attractive woman who can get Rand emotionally invested in her people.

I think the Wise Ones in general and even the Dreamwalkers specifically have many visions and dreams about trying to win and survive the LAST BATTLE but I get no vibe that there is anything after that. They're pisses as all hell that the Seanchan have leashed Wise Ones as slaves but display no inkling of knowledge that the Seanchan will eventually destroy them.

Again, I don't know HOW to exactly avert that fate, but going to war against them alone is definitely not the way to go.

Dennis

WinespringBrother 10-30-2010 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120198)
It was Verin, duh.

Have Verin and Aviendha ever met? As far as I can determine, they were in Caemlyn at the same time briefly, but didn't cross paths.

Terez 10-30-2010 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 120551)
Have Verin and Aviendha ever met? As far as I can determine, they were in Caemlyn at the same time briefly, but didn't cross paths.

Nope, they've never met. Doesn't mean that Verin has no idea who she is, like I said before. She might have been ordered to intercept her and kill her. But also, with the timing, it's possible that Aviendha was dreaming, and that Verin was already dead. A Hero? :) I mean, come on....if anyone should be a Hero, it should be Verin!

I think that at the very least, it's clear that Nakomi was not Aiel, and the personality screams Verin.

Tamyrlin 10-30-2010 09:05 AM

Tied Up in Belief
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120534)
I had thought that Aviendha's importance was simply to become Rand's lover and bear his children so that he would finally know his blood and be more invested in the Aiel other than simply as as weapon.

You've greatly misunderstood Aviendha's importance to the future of the Aiel, and greatly underestimated the Wise Ones awareness of her importance. Your understanding of Aviendha as extended to Min and Elayne is like saying that they are just some eye candy to tide Rand over to make it to the Last Battle. :)

Consider what they knew of Aviendha as far back as her trip into the Wetlands as a Maiden.

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 12 - Tanchico or the Tower
"Dreamwalkers," Moiraine mused. "Perhaps that explains it. I have heard of Dreamwalkers." She turned to the second page of the letter. "Here is what they say about you. What they said perhaps before you had even decided to come to Tear. 'There is among the Maidens of the Spear in the Stone of Tear a willful girl called Aviendha, of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel. She must now come to us. There can be no more waiting or excuses. We will await her on the slopes of Chaendaer, above Rhuidean.'
Surely you agree they were quite certain about Aviendha's future and what it meant to them? You don't think they go out of their way reading the futures of dreams to bring home every willful maiden do you? And I can't imagine that Aviendha's only importance to the story and the Wise Ones is her womb. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120534)
Your quotes reinforce the fact that dreams are difficult to interpret and only give a partial picture. They can guide you but following them too literally can be disastrous.

The quotes reinforce that they can read the likely futures, variations of the futures according to acts or lack of acts on the parts of many people...yet it seems like you are denying that they have such information because of their attitude from a outside point of view regarding how they feel about the Seanchan. Do they know the likely future? Yes. Of course. The book supports they have this information, specifically as it relates to their own people. Does that mean that they don't hate the Seanchan for what they MAY do to their people? Of course not. They hate the Seanchan for what they are doing and what they may still do. But I don't believe anything in the future Aviendha saw meant that they shouldn't fight the Seanchan after the Last Battle.

It is exactly the knowledge they have gained from their Dreamwalking and their Dreaming that has given them the courage to follow Rand Al'Thor, even when everything about it goes against who they are as a people. And it is exactly this knowledge that made them pay so much attention to Aviendha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120534)
Your theory seems to be that the sequence with Nakomi was engineered by the Wise Ones and I just have no idea why they would do that instead of just TELLING Aviendha what they think should be done. I don't see any explicit evidence in the books to suggest that they would think Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean would be anything special or worthy of extra attention. In fact, I don't even see any evidence to suggest that they dreamed Aviendha would be of any particular importance other than as a reasonably young and attractive woman who can get Rand emotionally invested in her people.

I recommend going back and reading TSR, especially the parts where the Wise One discuss that they saw likely futures and the consequences of the actions of others on their people's future. Obviously, if they chose to do it this way, it is because of what they saw. The idea that they would JUST TELL HER if they knew something is just not how they work; they let slip something to Moiraine, but that appears accidental. They go back and forth between direct meddling and not feeling like they should meddle, depending on the severity of what their readings portend.

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"The present is much clearer than the future even in Tel'aran'rhiod," the sun haired Wise One said. "What is happening or beginning is more easily seen than what will happen, or may. We did not see Egwene or Mat Cauthon at all. It was no more than an even chance that, the young man who calls himself Rand al'Thor would come. If he did not, it was certain that he would die, and the Aiel too. Yet he has come, and if he survives Rhuidean, some of the Aiel at least will survive. This we know. If you had not come, he would have died. If Aan'allein had not come, you would have died. If you do not go through the rings-" She cut off as if she had bitten her tongue.
That was in The Shadow Rising. If they knew these types of things at that point, what have they learned Dreamwalking and Dreaming since The Shadow Rising regarding the future of their people? Also, what are they NOT telling the wetlanders in this scene about what they have already dreamed and interpreted?

And finally, why we do not have a Point of View from any of the top four Wise Ones (other than one insignificant one from Sorilea). It's clear that to give us one where Amys and the other Wise Ones are talking would be to take us into conversations of the future, which would give away too much to the reader. The absolute silence is deafening.

WinespringBrother 10-30-2010 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120557)
Nope, they've never met. Doesn't mean that Verin has no idea who she is, like I said before. She might have been ordered to intercept her and kill her. But also, with the timing, it's possible that Aviendha was dreaming, and that Verin was already dead. A Hero? :) I mean, come on....if anyone should be a Hero, it should be Verin!

I think that at the very least, it's clear that Nakomi was not Aiel, and the personality screams Verin.

Interesting hypothesis. But did Aviendha have a non-saidar activated dreaming ter'angreal that was touching her skin? Or is she suddenly a dreamer that can end up in tel'aran'rhiod without realizing it? And if she started a fire, then fell asleep, wouldn't the fire be non-existent in TAR?

I will look more closely at that during my re-read. Hopefully timelines can be established also.

Tamyrlin 10-30-2010 10:32 AM

It's not TAR
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 120589)
Interesting hypothesis. But did Aviendha have a non-saidar activated dreaming ter'angreal that was touching her skin? Or is she suddenly a dreamer that can end up in tel'aran'rhiod without realizing it? And if she started a fire, then fell asleep, wouldn't the fire be non-existent in TAR?

I will look more closely at that during my re-read. Hopefully timelines can be established also.

I think the TAR reference refers to my thoughts on the subject.

I tend to use TAR in a general sense and a specific sense, assuming the difference will be understood - heh. It's the DreamSpace...looks like we'll have to start making this distinction. DreamSpace. DreamWorld. The GOI. A dream can be entered and controlled by a skilled individual. It seems clear that Aviendha falls asleep and that her dream is entered by this person. If you read everything that happens, not hearing this person approach, the food seeming to cook quicker than it should have. It tasting exactly like her mother made (or whatever it said about the food.) The person leaving and then the pack is gone when Aviendha returns to the fire. There is something off which she can't put her finger on, because she doesn't realize she has gone to sleep..in my opinion.

WinespringBrother 10-30-2010 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 120592)
I think the TAR reference refers to my thoughts on the subject.

I tend to use TAR in a general sense and a specific sense, assuming the difference will be understood - heh. It's the DreamSpace...looks like we'll have to start making this distinction. DreamSpace. DreamWorld. The GOI. A dream can be entered and controlled by a skilled individual. It seems clear that Aviendha falls asleep and that her dream is entered by this person. If you read everything that happens, not hearing this person approach, the food seeming to cook quicker than it should have. It tasting exactly like her mother made (or whatever it said about the food.) The person leaving and then the pack is gone when Aviendha returns to the fire. There is something off which she can't put her finger on, because she doesn't realize she has gone to sleep..in my opinion.

Ok, fair enough. Aviendha could have been pulled into someone else's dream. But wouldn't the dreampuller have to be a Dreamwalker? That would seem to rule out Sorilea and Verin, based on the available information. Also, do we ever find out if Aviendha wards her dreams normally (though maybe not when she takes unexpected catnaps)?

Tamyrlin 10-31-2010 10:10 AM

Verin and T'A'R
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 120620)
Ok, fair enough. Aviendha could have been pulled into someone else's dream. But wouldn't the dreampuller have to be a Dreamwalker? That would seem to rule out Sorilea and Verin, based on the available information. Also, do we ever find out if Aviendha wards her dreams normally (though maybe not when she takes unexpected catnaps)?

Well - I don't think it would count out Verin, if that was something that happened in T'A'R. Her experience in T'A'R is unknown. And now that we do know more about her, I doubt she would have given Egwene the only Ter'angreal that could be used to access T'A'R. My guess, in Coriann's notes, she studied some Ter'angreal and found others, but the ring was the best one.

It's unclear if only Dreamwalkers/Dreamers can find dreams. Can someone with access to T'A'R be taught to find dreams? I think that's a worthwhile question for the upcoming tour. Maybe I'll ask that one.

NargsBrood 11-02-2010 01:41 PM

huh?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120198)
It was Verin, duh.

I think tam is being overly patient here. I have to laugh at the idea of it being verin in disguise.

btw - verin was already dead.

Tamyrlin 11-02-2010 01:47 PM

I don't think so
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NargsBrood (Post 121360)
I think tam is being overly patient here. I have to laugh at the idea of it being verin in disguise.

I'm not going to discount an idea I can't disprove. Brandon's answer last night makes me think it is unlikely if I can prove that it happened in a dream, as he seems to believe a non-dreamwalker/dreamer could not learn to find dreams...however, I don't think we have definitive proof that Verin is not a dreamwalker.

Anyway, I haven't found enough proof to debunk the idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NargsBrood (Post 121360)
btw - verin was already dead.

Proof would be appreciated, as I wouldn't mind if Verin wasn't a suspect, that way I'd feel more confident in my own theory.

Terez 11-02-2010 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NargsBrood (Post 121360)
I think tam is being overly patient here. I have to laugh at the idea of it being verin in disguise.

btw - verin was already dead.

1. Check the chronology. Aviendha left for Rhuidean around 20 days before Verin died.

2. Even if Verin had been dead, it could have been her.

NargsBrood 11-02-2010 02:09 PM

? you've got me stumped
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121363)
1. Check the chronology. Aviendha left for Rhuidean around 20 days before Verin died.

2. Even if Verin had been dead, it could have been her.

where did her run to rhuidean begin? could she really have made in less than 20 days.

we just dont know, obviosly, who it was. that is what I claim. "duh" is kind of... a strong way of saying "youre an idiot tam. cant you see that it was obviously verin??"

Tamyrlin 11-02-2010 02:12 PM

Her run was three days right?
 
Quote:

where did her run to rhuidean begin? could she really have made in less than 20 days.
I thought she was dropped off and then ran to Rhuidean for three days.

Quote:

we just dont know, obviosly, who it was. that is what I claim. "duh" is kind of... a strong way of saying "youre an idiot tam. cant you see that it was obviously verin??"
Terez and I were talking about this by instant message. Her "duh" was in reference to a few messages back and forth and was meant tongue-in-cheek. As she knows I am right.

NargsBrood 11-02-2010 03:02 PM

thats good to know.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121369)
Her "duh" was in reference to a few messages back and forth and was meant tongue-in-cheek. As she knows I am right.

totally read the whole exchange wrong then :)

kivo 11-02-2010 07:40 PM

She will realize that she must convince the Aiel that they must resume the Way of the Leaf as it is their only salvation.

The Wise Ones attached Aviendha to Rand in order for him to save as many Aiel as possibly. But it is Aviendha who will save the Aiel, not Rand, when she convinces them that their toh is served, their purpose for being warriors is no longer relevant, and that they must now take up the old ways or be destroyed.

jana 11-03-2010 01:56 AM

It's obviously Verin... and that's all I feel needs to be said. Her mannerisms make it pretty clear.

But I'm sure I'll get to read this many times over the coming... 18 months. :D
Actually, probably longer. We will never find out "for sure"

Terez 11-03-2010 02:39 AM

YAY, someone who felt the same way I did about it.

Ahumm 11-03-2010 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kivo (Post 121422)
She will realize that she must convince the Aiel that they must resume the Way of the Leaf as it is their only salvation.

The Wise Ones attached Aviendha to Rand in order for him to save as many Aiel as possibly. But it is Aviendha who will save the Aiel, not Rand, when she convinces them that their toh is served, their purpose for being warriors is no longer relevant, and that they must now take up the old ways or be destroyed.

That...is a very interesting theory.


Yes, I believe I will join you in this.


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