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Terez 11-03-2010 02:49 AM

It's not a new theory - Linda has been saying it for some time. She believes they will have to adopt the Way before the Last Battle, but I'm not so sure about that. I'd like to think that their purpose was to fight at the Last Battle; without that, their history seems to fall flat thematically.

jana 11-03-2010 02:53 AM

There are 2 basic options for this scene.

1. It's for the reader. It's one of RJ's untied threads that will be talked about for all time

2. It's what Aviendha needed to see so she could change things


I'm at 50/50 right now :P


I don't see how the Aiel following the Way of the Leaf keeps the Seanchan from doing all of those horrible things though. So I might just have to be sad. The only thing that made me slightly less upset was that Rhuarc's son remembers that his father considered Tuon honorable.

Terez 11-03-2010 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jana (Post 121559)
I don't see how the Aiel following the Way of the Leaf keeps the Seanchan from doing all of those horrible things though.

This might be a product of a quick read, or maybe the reading backwards thing. The Seanchan did not break the Dragon's Peace - the Aiel did. They sought revenge for the Aiel prisoners who were being held as damane and da'covale, and when the war got rough, Oncala tricked the Andoran queen into joining the war by showing her plans that the Seanchan had drawn up to attack Andor, assassinate the queen, etc. IF Andor joined the war. But everything indicates that they would have continued to fight only the Aiel if Andor hadn't joined the war.

jana 11-03-2010 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121563)
This might be a product of a quick read, or maybe the reading backwards thing. The Seanchan did not break the Dragon's Peace - the Aiel did. They sought revenge for the Aiel prisoners who were being held as damane and da'covale, and when the war got rough, Oncala tricked the Andoran queen into joining the war by showing her plans that the Seanchan had drawn up to attack Andor, assassinate the queen, etc. IF Andor joined the war. But everything indicates that they would have continued to fight only the Aiel if Andor hadn't joined the war.

I'll have to go re-read the last part or two. I don't care if the Aiel all die as long as the Seanchan don't take over Randland :P

Terez 11-03-2010 03:03 AM

I don't mind them taking over so long as they quit with the slavery bullshit.

jana 11-03-2010 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121567)
I don't mind them taking over so long as they quit with the slavery bullshit.


lol.

I just re-read. I missed a paragraph somehow :P
I feel better now. The Aiel are just stubborn. "We weren't bound by the treaty so screw all ya'll."

I was upset about damane still existing too, and of Rand's great great greats not getting along, even though it's stupid to think they would, heh.

Ieyasu 11-03-2010 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121563)
The Seanchan did not break the Dragon's Peace - the Aiel did.

Per the second trip through the towers, the Aiel were never a part of the Dragon's Peace.

Hard to break something they weren't a part of anyway :rolleyes:

Davian93 11-03-2010 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jana (Post 121570)
lol.

I just re-read. I missed a paragraph somehow :P
I feel better now. The Aiel are just stubborn. "We weren't bound by the treaty so screw all ya'll."

I was upset about damane still existing too, and of Rand's great great greats not getting along, even though it's stupid to think they would, heh.

I found that to be pretty accurate just based off real history. Take WWI for example or most of English/French history or the Wars of the Roses, etc etc etc. Still a bit sad.

Terez 11-03-2010 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 121719)
Per the second trip through the towers, the Aiel were never a part of the Dragon's Peace.

Hard to break something they weren't a part of anyway :rolleyes:

Sure, that was part of the problem. But they would never have been drawn into a war with the Seanchan if they hadn't picked a fight with them...and they also broke the Peace by manipulating Andor into joining the war.

jana 11-03-2010 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ieyasu (Post 121719)
Per the second trip through the towers, the Aiel were never a part of the Dragon's Peace.

Hard to break something they weren't a part of anyway :rolleyes:


That's pretty irrelevant. The Aiel starting fighting them. In the PoV we got, she was nonchalant about killing Seanchan because they "got too close."

dfchang813 11-03-2010 04:51 PM

But the Seanchan continue to practice slavery and LEASH channelers with the express purpose of breaking their will and turning them into animals.

This is OK with people?

And they have AIEL in those leashes and refuse to barter or sell them back.

So it is hard for me to feel that the Aiel attacked them without provocation.

The mystery is how the hell did the Seanchan get so powerful that they could beat the Aiel AND the nations? What happened to the White and Black Towers? To Elayne and the Dragons of Andor? To Egwene? Etc, etc, etc.

Even if the Seanchan captured more channelers and gained damane there should still have been a better resistance.

Unless of course, Egwene managed to force everyone else to swear the 3 Oaths not to use the One Power as a weapon. I suppose that could give the advantage to the Seanchan . . .

Dennis

Xelun 11-03-2010 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 121830)
But the Seanchan continue to practice slavery and LEASH channelers with the express purpose of breaking their will and turning them into animals.

This is OK with people?

And they have AIEL in those leashes and refuse to barter or sell them back.

So it is hard for me to feel that the Aiel attacked them without provocation.

The mystery is how the hell did the Seanchan get so powerful that they could beat the Aiel AND the nations? What happened to the White and Black Towers? To Elayne and the Dragons of Andor? To Egwene? Etc, etc, etc.

Even if the Seanchan captured more channelers and gained damane there should still have been a better resistance.

Unless of course, Egwene managed to force everyone else to swear the 3 Oaths not to use the One Power as a weapon. I suppose that could give the advantage to the Seanchan . . .

Dennis

How did the Seanchan get so powerful? I wouldn't be surprised if it ties into weapons spreading, as Elayne says gunpowder weapons will. Coupled with a ruthless military, a group of channelers more capable of brutal weaves than every other group except possibly the Asha'man (who might not be in good shape by the end of AMoL), gunpowder for a highly effective military that learns from its mistakes easily gives them the power to conquer in war. Plus, the Seanchan seem like once they got their hands on gunpowder weapons, they'd experiment and experiment to find the best designs. Elayne wouldn't be overly inclined to ceaselessly experiment with the dragons for an edge in war, especially post TG. The Seanchan would.

Green Man 22 11-09-2010 11:47 AM

Verin
 
Verin seems like the best possibility after re-reading that section a few times.

I can't buy the argument for Lanfear. The last time she was around Aviendha, she had just discovered that she had slept with Rand, and went into an insane rage and wanted to kill her. If she had known which one of the girls Aviendha was, she would have killed her.

The idea that Lanfear could sit and have an easy, amicable conversation with Aviendha, knowing who she was, just doesn't seem likely.

FelixPax 11-09-2010 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121558)
It's not a new theory - Linda has been saying it for some time. She believes they will have to adopt the Way before the Last Battle, but I'm not so sure about that. I'd like to think that their purpose was to fight at the Last Battle; without that, their history seems to fall flat thematically.

I think both events will need to occur to the Aiel Clans:
  • To Fight in the Last Battle. Fated to Die. Sacrificed along side with Rand al'Thor. Who do they follow? 'He Who Comes With the Dawn', the Destroyer.
  • To Not Fight in the Last Battle. Fated to Live. To barely survive along side of Mat Cauthon. Who do they follow? 'He Who Comes With the Dawn', the Savior.

The Aiel Clans are divided. They have a divided future, too.


Mat Cauthon is one who is tired of war (KoD), and would choose peace if it's at all possible without going to war. Mat's protected the Sea Folk repeatedly. Mat's played Maiden's Kiss. Mat's warned Tuatha'an in Altara, about the Seanchan policies towards channelers. Mat's touched every single former Da'Shain Aiel on the mainland of the Westlands & Aiel Waste. Then Mat's wife Tuon, through the Seanchan military has indirectly protected a fourth group, the Amayar from killing themselves on Aile Dashar.

FelixPax 11-09-2010 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 120196)
Ok - hands down one of my favorite parts of the book is Aviendha, especially her meeting with a woman named Nakomi. I'm planning on writing a detailed theory on her identity. My main suspect is one of the Wise Ones, likely Amys.

Why has no one has mention possibility that Nakomi has met Tuatha'an travelers in the Aiel Waste? (TofM, Ch. 39 'In The Three-Fold Land')


Nakomi's words with Aviendha suggest that Nakomi has in fact interacted with Tuatha'an. Even the way the deepearth roots are quickly cooked suggests Nakomi has met a Band of Tinkers, who have cooking skills similar to those Asha'man Nalaam describes to Androl (TofM, Ch. 'Working Leather' - Androl point of view, see page 685).

Yes, I think Nakomi has possibly met Ila & Raen in the past. The same two Tinker's whom I think Asha'man Nalaam's mother met, spied on for King Alsalam, and traveled with.


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