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Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 12:33 AM

Resting After a Long Run
 
Ok - hands down one of my favorite parts of the book is Aviendha, especially her meeting with a woman named Nakomi. I'm planning on writing a detailed theory on her identity. My main suspect is one of the Wise Ones, likely Amys.

The gist of my theory is - the Wise Ones have been tracking Aviendha for a long time. They didn't want her to leave the Waste way back in TDR because they knew she was important from their ability to read Dreams. Their plans for the survival of the Aiel are set with Aviendha and they knew they needed to intervene while she was on her way back to Rhuidean in such a way that she would be prepared to walk through the columns. They knew they would have an opportunity to enter her dream and control it (or some other TAR/Dreamwalking means) to influence her. Likely they were waiting in TAR for her to fall asleep as they knew she would and immediately acted. This plays well with the repeated themes from The Shadow Rising. (Yes, I believe what we see is happening in TAR).

Although, I know Terez has her own suspect and there are some other possibilities. One thought is a Bubble of Good. :) Another is a Forsaken. Another idea would be a Mirror World intrusion. Another would be a Pattern Level Event (another words orchestrated by the Wheel.)

Terez 10-29-2010 12:39 AM

It was Verin, duh.

Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 12:44 AM

Hehe - I do like the idea, but...
 
How would Verin have found Aviendha? I like the idea, but was she following her waiting for her to stop? Does she have something Verin gave her like the coins Moiraine gave to the boys?

And then, how did Verin come to this understanding that she needed to talk to Aviendha in this way? I understand Aviendha would immediately be prepared to ignore a wetlander, but that doesn't explain what Nakomi tells Aviendha. There is purpose there and that purpose seems to have a lot to do with Aviendha's second walk through the columns. Did Verin know what would happen in Rhuidean? And if so, how?

Terez 10-29-2010 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 120200)
How would Verin have found Aviendha?

How did she know Rand was going to show up at the Tower?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tam
And then, how did Verin come to this understanding that she needed to talk to Aviendha in this way? I understand Aviendha would immediately be prepared to ignore a wetlander, but that doesn't explain what Nakomi tells Aviendha. There is purpose there and that purpose seems to have a lot to do with Aviendha's second walk through the columns. Did Verin know what would happen in Rhuidean? And if so, how?

I think she understood a great deal about the Aiel from her interactions with them, especially when she was questioning the 'apprentices'. Which, by the way, is another thing that makes me think it's Verin:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 39 - In the Three-fold Land

"You seem troubled," Nakomi said. "Far be it for me to question an apprentice Wise One. But I do see worry in your eyes."

...

"I'm sorry," Nakomi said. "I've let myself ramble again. I am prone to it, I fear. Here, let us eat."

She also referred to Rand as the Dragon, the one 'called' the Car'a'carn, and other things that hinted to her not actually being Aiel. Verin has had an interest in them since TGH. And I doubt Aviendha escaped her notice. Few things did.

Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 12:57 AM

True
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120202)
How did she know Rand was going to show up at the Tower?

That's a good question. How did she know? She didn't seem to have any information on Egwene until she got to the Tower and figured out that Egwene was different. Additionally, she had a hard time pinning Mat down. Leaving a letter for Rand when he showed up seems less surprising than finding Aviendha in the late evening on her way to Rhuidean. But I'll bite on the idea that she could have been waiting, knowing the approach she would take, and spotted her....and then got lucky that Aviendha stopped to rest.

I'd like it if it were Verin, but I need more evidence that Verin ever had interest in Aviendha. She is leaving everyone else letters, but this approach is radically different.

Terez 10-29-2010 01:40 AM

Because there's no way in hell that Aviendha would listen to a wetlander about the future of the Aiel. It required a radically different approach.

As to how she knew...I'm assuming Sorilea had something to do with it. And of course the Shadow always knew her relationship with Rand, since Lanfear learned, at the latest. But Sorilea has probably known for a while.

Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 08:37 AM

I agree Aviendha wouldn't have listened to a wetlander
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120208)
Because there's no way in hell that Aviendha would listen to a wetlander about the future of the Aiel. It required a radically different approach.

As to how she knew...I'm assuming Sorilea had something to do with it. And of course the Shadow always knew her relationship with Rand, since Lanfear learned, at the latest. But Sorilea has probably known for a while.

And if you mix Sorilea in...sure, a Wise One mix gives it more credence, but considering all the Wise Ones had to do early on with Aviendha in TDR, TSR, TFoH...you don't think their meddling is more likely?

I think it will be them or Verin...now I just need to develop it. These will be fun ones to get out into the open.

Terez 10-29-2010 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 120243)
And if you mix Sorilea in...sure, a Wise One mix gives it more credence, but considering all the Wise Ones had to do early on with Aviendha in TDR, TSR, TFoH...you don't think their meddling is more likely?

Not at all; I think they would be more likely to be straightforward with her. Why should they hide their opinions? And Nakomi doesn't speak like she is Aiel - that's another strong point for Verin.

dfchang813 10-29-2010 02:59 PM

I don't know . . .

It is plausible but from a thematic point of view I'm a bit confused.

This conversation is almost completely about what to do with the Aiel AFTER the Last Battle. The theme is developed later on in Avi's chapters as she sees that the Aiel's conflict with the Seanchan and their war-like nature eventually lead to their race's fall and extinction.

The question is a deeply personal one that is uniquely Aiel.

I did not get the impression from reading any of Verin's viewpoints that she had THAT big a stake in the Aiel ESPECIALLY after the Last Battle. Most of her attention I had thought was in toppling the Shadow, the Black Ajah, helping Rand win the Last Battle etc.

How does making Aviendha think about the role of the Aiel AFTER the Last Battle fit in with this?

I also don't see it as being ANY of the Aiel or the Wise Ones specifically. Disguising yourself in this manner is something that is just not done in ji'e'toh and I can't see any Wise One stooping to that type of base trickery.

Besides, Avi is an apprentice Wise One on her way to Rhuidean for a holy ritual. It would be anathema to interfere like that.

I don't have a better theory than Terez, but would be significantly confused why Verin would do this . . .

Dennis

Terez 10-29-2010 03:01 PM

I believe that Verin not only knows the Aiel better than most wetlanders, but she also probably knows the Shadow's plans for them. She would have a lot of reason to do what she did. I will look for some more direct foreshadowing; I'm sure I can find some.

Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 03:04 PM

I disagree - they will do what's necessary to save their people
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120407)

I also don't see it as being ANY of the Aiel or the Wise Ones specifically. Disguising yourself in this manner is something that is just not done in ji'e'toh and I can't see any Wise One stooping to that type of base trickery.

Besides, Avi is an apprentice Wise One on her way to Rhuidean for a holy ritual. It would be anathema to interfere like that.

Dennis

They will do what's necessary from what they read in the dreams. They will meddle as much as is required to save as large a remnant of their people as they can. But I'll wait for the theory to prove that out.

Terez 10-29-2010 03:05 PM

It won't; this will be on the 'unrevealed' list. We'll never know for sure.

Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 03:26 PM

That's possible
 
I will go back looking for more clues in TDR, TSR and TFoH for more proofs, but it may be that it is never revealed...which is fun too.

dfchang813 10-29-2010 03:28 PM

Boy that might drive me more crazy than Asmodean's killer.

Dennis

arioch 10-29-2010 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120423)
Boy that might drive me more crazy than Asmodean's killer.

Dennis

I was never too worked up about Asmodean, but this would probably ruin me, especially if there were no outriggers.

dfchang813 10-29-2010 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120410)
I believe that Verin not only knows the Aiel better than most wetlanders, but she also probably knows the Shadow's plans for them. She would have a lot of reason to do what she did. I will look for some more direct foreshadowing; I'm sure I can find some.

Did the Shadow have any plans for them? At least the Forsaken was surprised at how much they had changed from what they used to be.

And if the Dark One wins obviously there are no plans for anybody after that.

Again, this chapter is about what to do with the Aiel in the event they actually WIN the Last Battle.

This is critically important only if you were privy to the information that Aviendha got because she used her Talent.

Another thought: What if Aviendha changed the function of the glass columns PERMANENTLY so all future Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs went through what she went through? That would be pretty powerful motivation to change if they could all see that.

Last I read, almost all the leadership of the Aiel both Wise Ones and clan chiefs were for wiping the Seanchan off the face of the earth as soon as the Last Battle was done.

I think that is part of the sentiment that inevitably leads to their destruction and needs to be somehow changed.

This of course doesn't change the fact that I happen to AGREE with the Aiel about the Seanchan.

Dennis

fionwe1987 10-29-2010 04:47 PM

Ok, this is a new low for me...
 
I'm now going to theorize without reading the book, and on the basis of a few snippets... Am I a WoT junkie or what? :P

So, as I see it, there's someone who interrupts Avi's run to Rhuidean and makes her think about the Aiel's future. I'm assuming the timeline fits enough for this to be Verin.

Now, I'd like to know from someone how she's described. Any clues there?

Because I have an idea... what if this woman is Lanfear? We know she had Aiel attached to her (Rand's ancestor). She has lived among the Aiel for some time as a peddler. She also personally knows Aviendha, and maybe through spying on the Aiel's dreams, knows how important the WO regard her to be.

Now, there are some hints that Lanfear is rather more involved with the story than as a mere slave of Moridin's. There's a possibility he used to love her. There's a chance she may want to turn back. There's a chance she's part of a trap for Rand. We don't know. What we do know is, Moridin has some plans for her, and she may still have her own plans.

Whatever be the case, the interference of this Nakomi woman ensured that Avi used the glass columns differently. Given the instability in the Pattern, and what RJ said about prophesies and viewings at this time, what she sees may not even be true. What if Lanfear was able, to an extent, to figure out what Aviendha would see and then drove her to see it so that her future actions will be informed by these viewings? What if this is Moridin's plan to screw with the Aiel, or else maybe Cyndane actually helping them so that they don't get destroyed?

It is completely crazy, I know. But is there anything that conclusively disproves it?

dfchang813 10-29-2010 10:47 PM

Wow, ok.

That is crazy.

I don't know. Okay, first let me give you Nakomi's description:

Wears Aiel garb. Not cadin'sor or Wise One garb, just normal clothing. Dark skirt and tan blouse and shawl. Kerchief in greying hair.

Middle aged and carried no weapon.

Furrowed skin and can not channel.

Aviendha doesn't really want her around nor does she really want to share food or water since she is in the middle of the Waste but can't really turn her away. They have a conversation about the Aiel and their future after the Last Battle.

Aviendha thinks they will return to the Three Fold Land after the Last Battle because the wetlands are too "soft" but in the classic Socratic method, Nakomi makes her question this. She suggests that there would be no point afterwards. They would be growing harder for the sake of growing hard.

While doing this, she makes one of the most delicious meals Aviendha has ever eaten. Then she apologizes for making Aviendha feel weird and makes an excuse to leave to use the bathroom. She vanishes without a trace.

So if it is a channeler, she would have to hide her strength as Aviendha can't sense her at all.

As for Lanfear's involvement in this? It's hard to swallow. The advice given to Aviendha is VERY GOOD, something she and all the Wise Ones need to hear, it's something we the reader might tell them. I see absolutely no reason for Lanfear to do this.

Furthermore, from the end of the book, we know Lanfear is getting crushed night in and night out and really doesn't seem to be in the proper frame of mind for any clandestine missions to give helpful advice to the enemy.

Also, can't imagine you can even pass wind in a mindtrap without permission.

Meaning Moridin would have to approve of this plan which makes even less sense as he is the Forsaken absolutely most focused and engaged in having the Dark One WIN the Last Battle which means there is literally nothing afterwards making the Aiel's future completely moot.

Dennis

dfchang813 10-29-2010 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 120412)
They will do what's necessary from what they read in the dreams. They will meddle as much as is required to save as large a remnant of their people as they can. But I'll wait for the theory to prove that out.

Hmmmm, no, I don't think they would break ji'e'toh like this. They would just tell Aviendha straight up. Why bother with this charade?

Unless the dream demanded this? Which would be pretty darn contrived don't you think?

I am 99% sure this is not an Aiel at all.

Who else it could be is anyone's guess.

Verin maybe but again she is THAT much of a busybody? And how did she even FIND Aviendha while simultaneously giving out letters to all these people . . . I don't know if logistically or thematically it makes sense for her to do this.

It HAS to be someone who has a vested interest in the Aiel's future, who cares about them, and it has to be someone who is NOT Aiel so he/she can provide the invaluable perspective of an outsider.

I just don't know.

Dennis

Tamyrlin 10-29-2010 11:27 PM

I don't think it would be contrived at all
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120517)
Hmmmm, no, I don't think they would break ji'e'toh like this. They would just tell Aviendha straight up. Why bother with this charade?

Unless the dream demanded this? Which would be pretty darn contrived don't you think?

I am 99% sure this is not an Aiel at all.

Who else it could be is anyone's guess.

Verin maybe but again she is THAT much of a busybody? And how did she even FIND Aviendha while simultaneously giving out letters to all these people . . . I don't know if logistically or thematically it makes sense for her to do this.

It HAS to be someone who has a vested interest in the Aiel's future, who cares about them, and it has to be someone who is NOT Aiel so he/she can provide the invaluable perspective of an outsider.

I just don't know.

Dennis

First, I think the Wise Ones are wise. Second, we have seen a mysterious lack of the results of dreamwalking compared to what we saw regarding Aviendha's future in TDR and TSR. Third, Aviendha's decisions have obvious import to the Aiel and to the Wise Ones and they are very very invested in Aviendha. It is highly likely they read that she would go to Rhuidean and come back to them unchanged, and without that change the Aiel would be destroyed. And what we are now seeing is a product of how they believed she needed to be approached to get the results they needed to save their people.

Of course, their dreamwalking demanded it - they are dreamwalkers and from what we experienced in TDR and TSR, they are quite good and powerful. I can't imagine they were not involved in something so key regarding the remnant of a remnant of their people. In fact, I'm quite sure the Aiel Wise Ones are the most knowledgeable about this entire event (Last Battle and the Aiel) outside of the Wheel and the Dark One. Considering all of the other harmony written into this Pattern, this would resonate quite well from everything we've seen up to this point.

A final thought - I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of an apprentices trip to Rhuidean, to be approached in such a way as to question their purpose and prepare them to become a Wise One. Everything said there feels practiced, prepared and poignant, meant to make the apprentice consider the Aiel's place in the world. But that's not necessary, just a thought.

Everyone else that can be picked will have to feel contrived because motivation is missing and opportunity will have to be crafted. The Wise Ones have motivation, opportunity and means all built into the books.

Although, I think Lanfear and Verin are fun to play with as it is clear to me what happens here happens in a dream. I wouldn't be surprised by either, but certainly the Wise Ones are one of a handful of choices.

dfchang813 10-29-2010 11:36 PM

I don't know, the dreams must have come pretty late because even in this book Amys still thinks the Seanchan needs to be wiped out. A year and a day and all that.

Her attitude is identical to Aviendha's and them majority of the Aiel and is what eventually leads to the Aiel's destruction in the future.

I think it is Aviendha's destiny to convince the rest of the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs to change thier minds about how to handle the Seanchan. I'm now pretty sure that she will eventually force all of them to walk through the modified crystal columns to change their collective future.

Also, the Dreamers can not control what prophetic dreams they get. There's no evidence so far to suggest that they have dreamed anything relating to what they must do AFTER the Last Battle. The prophecy is that a remnant of a remnant will be saved after the Last Battle. The implication is that the Last Battle will decimate the Aiel but now we see that this "remnant of a remant" will happen many generations later with a very bad ending for them.

There's also really two different issues.

One is what the Aiel should do after the Last Battle in terms of staying in Randland or returning to the Three-Fold Land.

The other is what to do with the Seanchan.

The two are related but still distinct issues.

Nakomi is addressing the first while Aviendha's visions through the crystal columns impact the second.

I'm not sure right now ANYONE with the exception of Aviendha knows the particular future awaiting the Aiel after the Last Battle.

Dennis

Tamyrlin 10-30-2010 12:05 AM

Ok - So I grabbed the quotes :)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120527)
I don't know, the dreams must have come pretty late because even in this book Amys still thinks the Seanchan needs to be wiped out. A year and a day and all that.

What Aviendha sees can be interpreted many ways as to what the solution is to change that outcome. And that is a separate theory, but worth discussion too in another thread. But I disagree with your interpretation of what needs to be done about the Seanchan.


Quote:

Also, the Dreamers can not control what prophetic dreams they get. There's no evidence so far to suggest that they have dreamed anything relating to what they must do AFTER the Last Battle. The prophecy is that a remnant of a remnant will be saved after the Last Battle. The implication is that the Last Battle will decimate the Aiel but now we see that this "remnant of a remant" will happen many generations later with a very bad ending for them.
Dreamers and Dreamwalking can often come together as Talents, but TSR tells us distinct things about the abilities of the Wise Ones.

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"Why do you call him that?" Moiraine asked when he was out of earshot. "One Man. Do you know him?" "We know of him, Aes Sedai." Amys made the title sound an address between equals. "The last of the Malkieri. The man who will not give up his war against the Shadow though his nation is long destroyed by it. There is much honor in him. I knew from the dream that if you came, it was almost certain Aan'allein would as well, but I did not know he obeyed you."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"He is my Warder," Moiraine said simply. Egwene thought the Aes Sedai was troubled despite her tone, and she knew why. Almost certain Lan would come with Moiraine? Lan always followed Moiraine; he would follow her into the Pit of Doom without blinking. Nearly as interesting to Egwene was "if you came." Had the Wise Ones known they were coming or not? Perhaps interpreting the Dream was not as straightforward as she hoped. She was about to ask, when Bair spoke.

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
Amys sighed and set aside her cup of wine, but it was Bair who spoke. "Much is uncertain, even to a dream walker. Amys and Melaine are the best of us, and even they do not see all that is, or all that can be."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"And what did you see if I do not go?" Bair's wrinkled face was expressionless, but sympathy touched her pale blue eyes. "We have told too much already, Moiraine. What a dream walker sees is what is likely to happen, not what surely will. Those who move with too much knowledge of the future inevitably find disaster, whether from complacency at what they think must come or in their efforts to change it."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
You must learn to find what you need to find and read what you see, to enter the dreams of another close by in order to aid healing, to recognize those who are in the dream fully enough to harm you, to. ..."

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 25 - The Road to the Spear
"Some. Most. I have talked to my sisters in the dream, and we have all dreamed the same dream. The chiefs who do not come, and those who do not agree . . . . Their septs will die, Mandein. Within three generations they will be dust, and their holds and cattle belong to other septs. Their names will be lost."
These quotes make it clear that the Wise Ones are capable of reading the dreams and knowing what is likely to occur. It seems obvious that they are reading Aviendha's future and know what is likely to occur. And that they discuss their dreams and it would appear they are able to interpret them with a good deal of certainty in some cases.

Nothing said by Amys here makes me think that she doesn't understand what the Aiel need to survive.

Quote:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 15 - A Place to Begin
Amys nodded, looking back at Corana. "Do not think that we will ignore this insult, Corana. Vengeance will come. Once this war is done, the Seanchan will feel the storm of our arrows and the tips of our spears. But not until after. Go tell the two clan chiefs what you have told me."
They know the future of the Aiel is in the hands of Rand and Aviendha, which is why they have been guiding Aviendha for some time now, and that it is not a factor of how many spears or arrows they use against the Seanchan.

But I'm happy to discuss the the meaning of what Aviendha saw in a separate discussion, but it is not directly pertinent to my theory that the Wise Ones guided Aviendha through the dream because they knew what she was likely to encounter in Rhuidean and that it would have repercussions on the survival of their people.

dfchang813 10-30-2010 12:24 AM

I just don't have the same interpretation as you at all.

From what I can gather from Aviendha's thoughts, the trip to the crystal towers appear to be nothing more than a formality . . . an anticlimactic moment if you will since the truth of the Aiel's past is now common knowledge. She goes on in detail about how she worries that the ritual will have lost all relevance.

I don't get the feeling at all reading the rest of the Wise Ones' viewpoints in the Gathering Storm that they think Aviendha will learn ANYTHING new or important on her trip to Rhuidean. In fact, I'm very convinced that they had NO IDEA that she would do what she did to those columns or that she would catch a glimpse of the Aiel people's future destruction. There is no evidence that they even dreamed this.

I had thought that Aviendha's importance was simply to become Rand's lover and bear his children so that he would finally know his blood and be more invested in the Aiel other than simply as as weapon.

Your quotes reinforce the fact that dreams are difficult to interpret and only give a partial picture. They can guide you but following them too literally can be disastrous.

Also, at this point, I have absolutely no idea what the best way to deal with the Seanchan really is. I do not think that the Aiel going to war against them is going to work.

From everything we have read, AFTER the Last Battle, the Aiel are ready to start blood feud with the Seanchan whatever anyone else thinks. Indeed this is what happens in the visions Avi has. And that leads directly to their destruction within about 4 or 5 generations. A remant of a remant is all that is left by that time.

Your theory seems to be that the sequence with Nakomi was engineered by the Wise Ones and I just have no idea why they would do that instead of just TELLING Aviendha what they think should be done. I don't see any explicit evidence in the books to suggest that they would think Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean would be anything special or worthy of extra attention. In fact, I don't even see any evidence to suggest that they dreamed Aviendha would be of any particular importance other than as a reasonably young and attractive woman who can get Rand emotionally invested in her people.

I think the Wise Ones in general and even the Dreamwalkers specifically have many visions and dreams about trying to win and survive the LAST BATTLE but I get no vibe that there is anything after that. They're pisses as all hell that the Seanchan have leashed Wise Ones as slaves but display no inkling of knowledge that the Seanchan will eventually destroy them.

Again, I don't know HOW to exactly avert that fate, but going to war against them alone is definitely not the way to go.

Dennis

WinespringBrother 10-30-2010 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120198)
It was Verin, duh.

Have Verin and Aviendha ever met? As far as I can determine, they were in Caemlyn at the same time briefly, but didn't cross paths.

Terez 10-30-2010 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 120551)
Have Verin and Aviendha ever met? As far as I can determine, they were in Caemlyn at the same time briefly, but didn't cross paths.

Nope, they've never met. Doesn't mean that Verin has no idea who she is, like I said before. She might have been ordered to intercept her and kill her. But also, with the timing, it's possible that Aviendha was dreaming, and that Verin was already dead. A Hero? :) I mean, come on....if anyone should be a Hero, it should be Verin!

I think that at the very least, it's clear that Nakomi was not Aiel, and the personality screams Verin.

Tamyrlin 10-30-2010 09:05 AM

Tied Up in Belief
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120534)
I had thought that Aviendha's importance was simply to become Rand's lover and bear his children so that he would finally know his blood and be more invested in the Aiel other than simply as as weapon.

You've greatly misunderstood Aviendha's importance to the future of the Aiel, and greatly underestimated the Wise Ones awareness of her importance. Your understanding of Aviendha as extended to Min and Elayne is like saying that they are just some eye candy to tide Rand over to make it to the Last Battle. :)

Consider what they knew of Aviendha as far back as her trip into the Wetlands as a Maiden.

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 12 - Tanchico or the Tower
"Dreamwalkers," Moiraine mused. "Perhaps that explains it. I have heard of Dreamwalkers." She turned to the second page of the letter. "Here is what they say about you. What they said perhaps before you had even decided to come to Tear. 'There is among the Maidens of the Spear in the Stone of Tear a willful girl called Aviendha, of the Nine Valleys sept of the Taardad Aiel. She must now come to us. There can be no more waiting or excuses. We will await her on the slopes of Chaendaer, above Rhuidean.'
Surely you agree they were quite certain about Aviendha's future and what it meant to them? You don't think they go out of their way reading the futures of dreams to bring home every willful maiden do you? And I can't imagine that Aviendha's only importance to the story and the Wise Ones is her womb. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120534)
Your quotes reinforce the fact that dreams are difficult to interpret and only give a partial picture. They can guide you but following them too literally can be disastrous.

The quotes reinforce that they can read the likely futures, variations of the futures according to acts or lack of acts on the parts of many people...yet it seems like you are denying that they have such information because of their attitude from a outside point of view regarding how they feel about the Seanchan. Do they know the likely future? Yes. Of course. The book supports they have this information, specifically as it relates to their own people. Does that mean that they don't hate the Seanchan for what they MAY do to their people? Of course not. They hate the Seanchan for what they are doing and what they may still do. But I don't believe anything in the future Aviendha saw meant that they shouldn't fight the Seanchan after the Last Battle.

It is exactly the knowledge they have gained from their Dreamwalking and their Dreaming that has given them the courage to follow Rand Al'Thor, even when everything about it goes against who they are as a people. And it is exactly this knowledge that made them pay so much attention to Aviendha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfchang813 (Post 120534)
Your theory seems to be that the sequence with Nakomi was engineered by the Wise Ones and I just have no idea why they would do that instead of just TELLING Aviendha what they think should be done. I don't see any explicit evidence in the books to suggest that they would think Aviendha's trip to Rhuidean would be anything special or worthy of extra attention. In fact, I don't even see any evidence to suggest that they dreamed Aviendha would be of any particular importance other than as a reasonably young and attractive woman who can get Rand emotionally invested in her people.

I recommend going back and reading TSR, especially the parts where the Wise One discuss that they saw likely futures and the consequences of the actions of others on their people's future. Obviously, if they chose to do it this way, it is because of what they saw. The idea that they would JUST TELL HER if they knew something is just not how they work; they let slip something to Moiraine, but that appears accidental. They go back and forth between direct meddling and not feeling like they should meddle, depending on the severity of what their readings portend.

Quote:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 23 - Beyond the Stone
"The present is much clearer than the future even in Tel'aran'rhiod," the sun haired Wise One said. "What is happening or beginning is more easily seen than what will happen, or may. We did not see Egwene or Mat Cauthon at all. It was no more than an even chance that, the young man who calls himself Rand al'Thor would come. If he did not, it was certain that he would die, and the Aiel too. Yet he has come, and if he survives Rhuidean, some of the Aiel at least will survive. This we know. If you had not come, he would have died. If Aan'allein had not come, you would have died. If you do not go through the rings-" She cut off as if she had bitten her tongue.
That was in The Shadow Rising. If they knew these types of things at that point, what have they learned Dreamwalking and Dreaming since The Shadow Rising regarding the future of their people? Also, what are they NOT telling the wetlanders in this scene about what they have already dreamed and interpreted?

And finally, why we do not have a Point of View from any of the top four Wise Ones (other than one insignificant one from Sorilea). It's clear that to give us one where Amys and the other Wise Ones are talking would be to take us into conversations of the future, which would give away too much to the reader. The absolute silence is deafening.

WinespringBrother 10-30-2010 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120557)
Nope, they've never met. Doesn't mean that Verin has no idea who she is, like I said before. She might have been ordered to intercept her and kill her. But also, with the timing, it's possible that Aviendha was dreaming, and that Verin was already dead. A Hero? :) I mean, come on....if anyone should be a Hero, it should be Verin!

I think that at the very least, it's clear that Nakomi was not Aiel, and the personality screams Verin.

Interesting hypothesis. But did Aviendha have a non-saidar activated dreaming ter'angreal that was touching her skin? Or is she suddenly a dreamer that can end up in tel'aran'rhiod without realizing it? And if she started a fire, then fell asleep, wouldn't the fire be non-existent in TAR?

I will look more closely at that during my re-read. Hopefully timelines can be established also.

Tamyrlin 10-30-2010 10:32 AM

It's not TAR
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 120589)
Interesting hypothesis. But did Aviendha have a non-saidar activated dreaming ter'angreal that was touching her skin? Or is she suddenly a dreamer that can end up in tel'aran'rhiod without realizing it? And if she started a fire, then fell asleep, wouldn't the fire be non-existent in TAR?

I will look more closely at that during my re-read. Hopefully timelines can be established also.

I think the TAR reference refers to my thoughts on the subject.

I tend to use TAR in a general sense and a specific sense, assuming the difference will be understood - heh. It's the DreamSpace...looks like we'll have to start making this distinction. DreamSpace. DreamWorld. The GOI. A dream can be entered and controlled by a skilled individual. It seems clear that Aviendha falls asleep and that her dream is entered by this person. If you read everything that happens, not hearing this person approach, the food seeming to cook quicker than it should have. It tasting exactly like her mother made (or whatever it said about the food.) The person leaving and then the pack is gone when Aviendha returns to the fire. There is something off which she can't put her finger on, because she doesn't realize she has gone to sleep..in my opinion.

WinespringBrother 10-30-2010 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 120592)
I think the TAR reference refers to my thoughts on the subject.

I tend to use TAR in a general sense and a specific sense, assuming the difference will be understood - heh. It's the DreamSpace...looks like we'll have to start making this distinction. DreamSpace. DreamWorld. The GOI. A dream can be entered and controlled by a skilled individual. It seems clear that Aviendha falls asleep and that her dream is entered by this person. If you read everything that happens, not hearing this person approach, the food seeming to cook quicker than it should have. It tasting exactly like her mother made (or whatever it said about the food.) The person leaving and then the pack is gone when Aviendha returns to the fire. There is something off which she can't put her finger on, because she doesn't realize she has gone to sleep..in my opinion.

Ok, fair enough. Aviendha could have been pulled into someone else's dream. But wouldn't the dreampuller have to be a Dreamwalker? That would seem to rule out Sorilea and Verin, based on the available information. Also, do we ever find out if Aviendha wards her dreams normally (though maybe not when she takes unexpected catnaps)?

Tamyrlin 10-31-2010 10:10 AM

Verin and T'A'R
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 120620)
Ok, fair enough. Aviendha could have been pulled into someone else's dream. But wouldn't the dreampuller have to be a Dreamwalker? That would seem to rule out Sorilea and Verin, based on the available information. Also, do we ever find out if Aviendha wards her dreams normally (though maybe not when she takes unexpected catnaps)?

Well - I don't think it would count out Verin, if that was something that happened in T'A'R. Her experience in T'A'R is unknown. And now that we do know more about her, I doubt she would have given Egwene the only Ter'angreal that could be used to access T'A'R. My guess, in Coriann's notes, she studied some Ter'angreal and found others, but the ring was the best one.

It's unclear if only Dreamwalkers/Dreamers can find dreams. Can someone with access to T'A'R be taught to find dreams? I think that's a worthwhile question for the upcoming tour. Maybe I'll ask that one.

NargsBrood 11-02-2010 01:41 PM

huh?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 120198)
It was Verin, duh.

I think tam is being overly patient here. I have to laugh at the idea of it being verin in disguise.

btw - verin was already dead.

Tamyrlin 11-02-2010 01:47 PM

I don't think so
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NargsBrood (Post 121360)
I think tam is being overly patient here. I have to laugh at the idea of it being verin in disguise.

I'm not going to discount an idea I can't disprove. Brandon's answer last night makes me think it is unlikely if I can prove that it happened in a dream, as he seems to believe a non-dreamwalker/dreamer could not learn to find dreams...however, I don't think we have definitive proof that Verin is not a dreamwalker.

Anyway, I haven't found enough proof to debunk the idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NargsBrood (Post 121360)
btw - verin was already dead.

Proof would be appreciated, as I wouldn't mind if Verin wasn't a suspect, that way I'd feel more confident in my own theory.

Terez 11-02-2010 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NargsBrood (Post 121360)
I think tam is being overly patient here. I have to laugh at the idea of it being verin in disguise.

btw - verin was already dead.

1. Check the chronology. Aviendha left for Rhuidean around 20 days before Verin died.

2. Even if Verin had been dead, it could have been her.

NargsBrood 11-02-2010 02:09 PM

? you've got me stumped
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121363)
1. Check the chronology. Aviendha left for Rhuidean around 20 days before Verin died.

2. Even if Verin had been dead, it could have been her.

where did her run to rhuidean begin? could she really have made in less than 20 days.

we just dont know, obviosly, who it was. that is what I claim. "duh" is kind of... a strong way of saying "youre an idiot tam. cant you see that it was obviously verin??"

Tamyrlin 11-02-2010 02:12 PM

Her run was three days right?
 
Quote:

where did her run to rhuidean begin? could she really have made in less than 20 days.
I thought she was dropped off and then ran to Rhuidean for three days.

Quote:

we just dont know, obviosly, who it was. that is what I claim. "duh" is kind of... a strong way of saying "youre an idiot tam. cant you see that it was obviously verin??"
Terez and I were talking about this by instant message. Her "duh" was in reference to a few messages back and forth and was meant tongue-in-cheek. As she knows I am right.

NargsBrood 11-02-2010 03:02 PM

thats good to know.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121369)
Her "duh" was in reference to a few messages back and forth and was meant tongue-in-cheek. As she knows I am right.

totally read the whole exchange wrong then :)

kivo 11-02-2010 07:40 PM

She will realize that she must convince the Aiel that they must resume the Way of the Leaf as it is their only salvation.

The Wise Ones attached Aviendha to Rand in order for him to save as many Aiel as possibly. But it is Aviendha who will save the Aiel, not Rand, when she convinces them that their toh is served, their purpose for being warriors is no longer relevant, and that they must now take up the old ways or be destroyed.

jana 11-03-2010 01:56 AM

It's obviously Verin... and that's all I feel needs to be said. Her mannerisms make it pretty clear.

But I'm sure I'll get to read this many times over the coming... 18 months. :D
Actually, probably longer. We will never find out "for sure"

Terez 11-03-2010 02:39 AM

YAY, someone who felt the same way I did about it.

Ahumm 11-03-2010 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kivo (Post 121422)
She will realize that she must convince the Aiel that they must resume the Way of the Leaf as it is their only salvation.

The Wise Ones attached Aviendha to Rand in order for him to save as many Aiel as possibly. But it is Aviendha who will save the Aiel, not Rand, when she convinces them that their toh is served, their purpose for being warriors is no longer relevant, and that they must now take up the old ways or be destroyed.

That...is a very interesting theory.


Yes, I believe I will join you in this.


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