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Tamyrlin 11-02-2010 12:53 PM

And we are back to silly Egwene-land
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 121337)
As opposed to completely unreasoned Egwene support?

There is a thread for "egwene's an idiot" - I recommend posting arguments based on "Egwene's dumb" there. Everyone will note, I've never liked Egwene, but new Egwene is a different person and that can't be ignored.

Anyway, back to the theory. I think there is merit in the concept. Dismissing Egwene now, just like dismissing Rand, after both have gone through significant maturation while still having extreme demands on them, will continue to be our significant failure as readers.

Egwene's concerns are legit. She isn't saying that he shouldn't fight the Dark One or that the Dark One isn't real and they can avoid him and the Last Battle and the changes. Her concerns are specific and while LTT/Rand is much more experienced in regards to life/channeling, LTT didn't anticipate the counter strike by the DO. The idea that he has figured everything out now, I don't think accurately expresses Rand's opinions.

Nynaeve seeing the Dark One's taint in Rand's mind, along with the effects of the merge increasing, those can't be dismissed very casually.

Plus, I think Brandon's answers last night about the seals and Herid Fel, do make me wonder if we've been duped and Rand has been duped a bit regarding the seals. This much should be obvious when Taim, at the very least a Darkfriend if not more, gave Rand a seal. Alarm bells should be going off as the lamb is led to the slaughter.

Anyway - Egwene may not know what breaking the seals will mean for the Dark One and Ishamael in regards to what they hope for, but we have no reason to believe that there is a happy ending here. RJ placed Egwene here for a reason and I think if Rand can be said to have been raised better, then so can Egwene compared to the AoL equivalent of her. The Two Rivers gave us Egwene, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve for a specific reason - they were raised better and together they will hopefully come up with the better way.

alleluia_cone 11-02-2010 01:04 PM

I'm surprised this issue is getting so much attention. Whether or not breaking the seals is the correct course of action, the answer to that question is irrelevant as long as Rand doesn't know what to do after breaking the seals or as an alternative to breaking them. I assume, although not with much confidence, that Rand is thinking of doing the same thing he did before, except, this time with women and possibly with Callandor. In any case, I truly wonder whether we even have enough information go on at this point in order to divine more than that. I figure Moiraine is more knowledgeable on this point and hopefully with her and Cadsuane's advice Rand will figure it out.

Terez 11-02-2010 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alleluia_cone (Post 121344)
Whether or not breaking the seals is the correct course of action, the answer to that question is irrelevant as long as Rand doesn't know what to do after breaking the seals or as an alternative to breaking them.

It's not irrelevant at all - it's the difference between 'oh, we should figure out something different' and 'LET'S SET THE DARK ONE FREE THAT'S A GRRRRRREAT IDEA!'

And of course they will figure it out. We know the series will have a happy ending. I'm just saying Rand's friends will likely have to step in to prevent disaster.

Tamyrlin 11-02-2010 01:10 PM

Hmm - Doesn't this get to the heart of the entire matter?
 
Lanfear created the Bore
LTT sealed the Bore along with Thirteen Forsaken.
The DO's counterstroke tainted Saidin.

And now everything else that we have experienced as readers is in this story is based on those three facts. Shouldn't we be spending our time trying to understand the meaning behind those?

I think it's a great question (as I see it): why would the Dark One give up a seal to Rand, if he obviously wanted for the seals to be destroyed? Why give one up?

Isn't it very possible that Herid Fel finally understood why the Dark One wanted the rubble cleared by the Dragon? And for that he was killed?

Terez 11-02-2010 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121350)
I think it's a great question (as I see it): why would the Dark One give up a seal to Rand, if he obviously wanted for the seals to be destroyed? Why give one up?

1. Because Rand breaking them will make him vulnerable. Rand even being in the presence of the seal might make him vulnerable.

2. They needed Rand to trust Taim.

fionwe1987 11-02-2010 01:26 PM

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Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 121292)
Rand, like any great leader, knows how to delegate.

That's really funny, since that has been true for exactly one book.

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Its funny, Rand walks peacefully into Egwene's house, asks for help and to help plan for winning the battle and the first two things that pop into Egwene's mind are:

1. Hmm, should I imprison him as he's too dangerous.
Huh? Which book did you read? She says exactly the opposite of that.

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2. I must actively work against him and co-opt his sworn retainers to stop him.
Persuade him. There's a huge difference. She clearly did not ask Darlin to foreswear his oaths to Rand. She even wrote that she appreciated his loyalty, and since she cannot lie, that is true. You just have your Egwene-hate blinders on.

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This despite Rand's reference to exactly that being the cause of the Breaking the last time around.
Ummm... no. Rand acknowledges that opposition from
the women may well have saved the world. And RJ's quotes support that. When Rand himself admits that to Egwene, she'd be a fool to think she should blindly follow him. Especially when her dreams at least seem to indicate the contrary.

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How can you support Egwene? She's no better than Elaida at this point.
Yea, because she put Rand in a box and beat him everyday. Your bias here is so obvious I'm surprised people are bothering to take your posts on this topic seriously. Get some perspective dude...

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Hell, she's basically doing exactly the same things Elaida did...only accomplishing them a bit better

1. Gather support AGAINST Rand
2. Convincing his sworn retainers
And? She's also a woman and sits in the same chair. Her purpose is not to oppose Rand wholesale. She has one aspect of his plan which she opposes. She has every right to work against it. Its her life too, her people too, her world too.

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The only real reason she didn't stop Rand is because she realized she couldn't hold him in the Tower. She's just sad at this point.
:rolleyes: She clearly states that if she does that she'd be no better than Elaida, so she won't hold Rand. That she couldn't doesn't even enter her thoughts at that point.

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I also agree on the linear comment about her. Egwene is very single goal oriented. She can't multi-task worth a damn. For basically an entire year, her only goal was "Reunite the Tower at all costs"...during which she completely ignored the greater war on the Shadow and Rand's struggles. Now her mission for the past 28 days has been "Gather support to STOP Rand". I seriously doubt she has done anything other than that to plan. And I suspect Rand was well aware of what she would do when he "asked" for her help. She is simply a pawn at this point. Rand never had any intention (rightly so) of needing her help on planning for after he broke the Seals. That's why he immediately asked for Min's help on that task. He knows Egwene is incapable of answering that question.
Right. So defeating Mesaana and forming an alliance with the WO and WF happened months after she was planning to oppose Rand plan. Oh wait...

alleluia_cone 11-02-2010 01:47 PM

I do wonder whether we have been provided with enough information to do more than simply speculate in a decidedly haphazard fashion. The one thing I think we can all agree on is that Herid Fel was on to something otherwise he would not have been killed. Building on that point, Min has continued in his line of work and has increasingly become fixated on Callandor. Assuming the direction her research has taken her on is the correct one, which, given the limited time remaining in the series, seems plausible, then we have to assume Callandor will factor in somehow. This is another reason I don't find solutions involving Tel'aran'rhiod and Egwene very convincing. Although, it is possible that Egwene could be one of the people wielding Callandor or helping to implement its power in some manner. Needless to say, this will require Rand trusting her in the way he trusts Nynaeve, which clearly is not the case right now. Beyond that, as Tamyrlin has pointed out, there is something odd about what Rand needs to do in regard to the seals. But as to the question of what Rand is supposed to do with them, I don't have many fresh ideas on the subject.

arioch 11-02-2010 03:46 PM

I don't think we have any idea what's supposed to happen after Rand breaks the seals.

Here's my list for most likely suspects to come up with the information, not in any particular order:

1) Min - studied Herid Fel's notes and books
2) Moiraine - has studied extensive collections of writings from the Tower and Vandene/Adeleas's stash
3) Tinkers - Wacky Theory
4) Cadsuane - has obviously also done research
5) Lanfear - duh

Min and Cadsuane are focusing on Callandor right now. Is Callandor a red herring? Why should Rand wield Callandor in a linked circle of 3 against the Dark One at the Bore? Is the new Callandor flaw instead an advantage?

The Tinkers are foreshadowed as being important--I think there was at least twice the Tinkers were found with "need" in T'A'R or Dreaming, but I'd have to double check on the number. Their true purpose has yet to be revealed from those "need" sessions. Possibly to do with the Aiel's new purpose after TG, possibly something else.

Moiraine and Lanfear I'd tend to lump together, since Min's description of her viewing was ambiguous.

Davian93 11-02-2010 07:25 PM

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Anyway - Egwene may not know what breaking the seals will mean for the Dark One and Ishamael in regards to what they hope for, but we have no reason to believe that there is a happy ending here. RJ placed Egwene here for a reason and I think if Rand can be said to have been raised better, then so can Egwene compared to the AoL equivalent of her. The Two Rivers gave us Egwene, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve for a specific reason - they were raised better and together they will hopefully come up with the better way.
Tam, let me start off by saying I really dont want this to be an Egwene bashing thread. That really isn't my intent at all.

However, what if Egwene's purpose is to be Latra Posae all over again? Egwene's entire personality is to give 100% of herself to her new identity. She's left the Two Rivers far behind in that pursuit. What if she's the reason there isn't a happy happy ending? Its a legitimate theory at this point...especially given her actions in this book.

I think that Egwene thinks she's doing the right thing and that she's completely validated to do that. However, given that other key characters like Perrin, Elayne and Nynaeve all disagree with her, it gives me pause.

Then there are POV thoughts like this,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chapter 3, pg 83
The Dragon Reborn did need the freedom to do as the prophecies said he would, but could they simply let him roam away, now that they had him?

That's very close to Elaida's thought pattern (not to the extreme as her but similar. She's thinking of how to control him...for the very best of reasons (she thinks him mad and dangerous) but still a bad route to take. Hopefully, Egwene remembers herself and does the right thing but she could very well inadvertantly ruin things.


Though I tend to think Rand figured this out long ago and basically set Egwene in motion to gather everyone for him. I dont think he has any intention of listening to her on how to Seal the Bore. I think that will come from Caddy, Min, Moiraine, Alivia and Nynaeve personally.

Egwene is a good person but even good people make mistakes for the very best of reasons.

fionwe1987 11-02-2010 08:08 PM

It has to be noted that while Elayne was initially uncertain, her later PoV shows that she's opposed to the Seals being broken as well.

As for that Egwene quote... I think taking quotes out of context like that is lazy theorizing at best. What is the point of the quoting a troubling question Egwene has and then not quoting her answer and her action of letting Rand go free?

Davian93 11-02-2010 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 121426)
It has to be noted that while Elayne was initially uncertain, her later PoV shows that she's opposed to the Seals being broken as well.

As for that Egwene quote... I think taking quotes out of context like that is lazy theorizing at best. What is the point of the quoting a troubling question Egwene has and then not quoting her answer and her action of letting Rand go free?

I'm not putting it out of context...I'm illustrating a troubling thought by her. Her final decision was commendable but the fact that she considered it was troubling to say the least.

As for Elayne, consider that Egwene persuaded her quite heavily to go that route.

arioch 11-02-2010 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 121421)
What if she's the reason there isn't a happy happy ending?

Except Latra Posae is the reason there can be a happy ending this time in the first place?

fionwe1987 11-02-2010 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 121427)
I'm not putting it out of context...I'm illustrating a troubling thought by her. Her final decision was commendable but the fact that she considered it was troubling to say the least.

It is troubling that she is worried about letting a potentially mad male channeler run free? Seriously?

You know he is super Zen Rand. She does not. Two days before this conversation, Rand was mad. It would have been stupid to let him run free (and commit other atrocities like Natrin's Barrow).

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As for Elayne, consider that Egwene persuaded her quite heavily to go that route.
Hardly... They have one conversation about it where Egwene doesn't spend too much time convincing them of anything.

fionwe1987 11-02-2010 09:13 PM

Egwene's dream...
 
Terez: I know you think Egwene's dream means something else, but consider these facts, and how they support your own theory:

1)Egwene has the dream just before she receives news of Rand's arrival. Which means for the first time ever, she had a dream that became relevant less than an hour later.

2)When Rand talks of Breaking the seals, Egwene again gets a vision of the crystal sphere and is filled with foreboding. This is not at all unlike how she interprets her Dream of bonding Gawyn after meeting him.

3) Rand says, in his PoV, that he had been counting on Egwene opposing his plan. Since he was in Tar Valon when Egwene had this dream, isn't it very likely that it was his ta'veren nature caused her to have this dream, thus making her quite firmly opposed to his plan?

4) The implication of the dream is that the DO's prison will crumble when the Seals are broken. So, while the Pattern accommodates Rand's wish to have Egwene oppose him, it also send her a warning that would make her opposition real and entrenched despite Rand's best efforts. If breaking the seals is a dangerous idea, implanted by the Shadow, isn't this exactly the way ta'veren would work to counter this plan? Is this not also reminiscent of the Latra Pose-LTT standoff?

For all these reasons, not only do I think that this Dream was about the seals being broken, but that its interpretation supports your theory that breaking the seals is a bad plan.

Madgod 11-02-2010 09:15 PM

I have to agree that Egwene's reaction to a man with doubtful sanity claiming that he needs to let the most evil being ever loose in the world to be perfectly reasonable. In fact, most of the people seem to take that news more calmly than I would in similar circumstances.
However, in regards to actually breaking the seals,
I always assumed that it would need to be done. The analogy in my mind is replacing a dowel in some woodwork; the old one needs to be fully taken out before the new one is placed into the aperture. It just scaled up in my head to Bore-size.

arioch 11-02-2010 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madgod (Post 121444)
I have to agree that Egwene's reaction to a man with doubtful sanity claiming that he needs to let the most evil being ever loose in the world to be perfectly reasonable. In fact, most of the people seem to take that news more calmly than I would in similar circumstances.
However, in regards to actually breaking the seals,
I always assumed that it would need to be done. The analogy in my mind is replacing a dowel in some woodwork; the old one needs to be fully taken out before the new one is placed into the aperture. It just scaled up in my head to Bore-size.

I don't think we (as readers) are supposed to think anything other than that the seals have to be broken at some point. I do think a fair point is being raised that doing so before you have any clue what to do after that (when timing may be critical) is pretty much dumb.

Still, AMoL will end how RJ/BS say it will end, and the Pattern weaves as the Pattern wills, so it would be entirely plausible for the solution to pop into Rand's head as soon as the last seal is shattered and then he executes that plan on the spot in the next split second. Or whatever. Just as long as it is written well, which I really don't have any doubts on.

zanethanatos 11-02-2010 10:43 PM

I don't think there necessarily is a plan for either side, breaking the seals is just the point at which it will all be decided. We almost have to assume that Rand has access to knowledge we do not but given the peace has made with himself it's hard to know what that is. I mean is there really any indication that he really intends to break the seals? He may have just said it to get everyone where he wants at the time he wants. It seems pretty arbitrary to go "in 3 days we're going to have a battle to decide the fate of the world". More importantly, at the battle at Maradon he comments that he can not be everyone at once and the battle will take place across the world. Given that, it would seem kind of odd to gather all the world's major armies at one point.

Terez 11-03-2010 12:13 AM

I am assuming at this point that Rand will figure out he's still linked to Moridin. He will understand why he needs to die. And Min will figure out that Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel...so, they kill him (someone will, and Alivia will help...I still lean toward Gawyn and Moiraine both being involved), and prevent him from breaking the seals. I have won again, Lews Therin. Then they resurrect him sans-Moridin, give him the dagger ter'angreal, and send him off to fix things at Shayol Ghul. The Shadow won't see him coming. Or, they might know he's coming when Slayer fails to kill Rand forever in Tel'aran'rhiod, but they won't be able to see him!

Or, that's my thoughts right now. We have a long time to theorize on this one.

Terez 11-03-2010 12:15 AM

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Originally Posted by zanethanatos (Post 121471)
We almost have to assume that Rand has access to knowledge we do not

We know he doesn't. That's why he begged Min to figure it out.

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but given the peace has made with himself it's hard to know what that is. I mean is there really any indication that he really intends to break the seals?
In his POV, he thinks that he's going to break them no matter what Egwene says.

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More importantly, at the battle at Maradon he comments that he can not be everyone at once and the battle will take place across the world. Given that, it would seem kind of odd to gather all the world's major armies at one point.
I agree, and I think it's more suggestion that he's not free of the Shadow's influence. Jesus-Rand is too good to be true.

zanethanatos 11-03-2010 12:28 AM

Some of his knowledge seemed to be explained, but more by his actions than his thoughts or what he told other. I'm not implying that he has all the answers to everything, but just that he has held some knowledge back.

And where in his POV does he it show that that is what he is thinking? All I remember are simple statements that he is going to do it.

I do like Jesus-Rand, but what says it can't be true. In the wolf dream he was shown throwing of all threads of the shadow and that alone gave the Light a chance.

I'd also have to say that his ties with Moridin is what give Rand some his strength. What would it serve to break those bonds as they have only seem to have kept him safe?


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