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dfchang813 11-03-2010 02:21 AM

A few things:

First, Terez, that was a tour-de-force of theorizing as usual. Even your theories that are dead wrong have so much evidence sometimes from the books to support them that you half-way convince me there is a chance.

But I fall back on something that is not so easily quoted or quantified.

And that is the sort of story Jordan is telling and what is plausible and reasonable.

For instance, your initial theory about Gawyn appeared to be well supported with quotes from the books and references to various King Arthur references etc. But it didn't make sense to me and I knew Gawyn would not kill Rand for a very simple reason:

Gawyn is a good guy. No matter what he has been through and the mistakes he has made, he is a character that is supposed to bond and marry Egwene, one of the main protagonists of this series. To suggest that Gawyn would somehow kill Rand . . . especially in a hatred fueled manner would have destroyed all of that.

Whatever doubts or uncertainties are introduced, at the end of the day, you know he is going to save her and NOT break her neck. You know he is going to be her Warder, you know he is going to marry her.

That's why while the idea of Galad and Egwene bonding is cute, I knew that to be impossible too. It just wouldn't make sense in the overall scheme of this story.

Twists and surprises are all well and good. And a cleverly hidden one like Verin makes for a spectacular reveal. But good storytelling 101 IN MY OPINION means you can't pile it on one after another. You can't let the twists take over the story. Or there ceases to be a story and everything turns into a game to fool and surprise the reader. We have to stop looking for a "Verin" in every plot arc.

Rand had his epiphany on Dragonmount and this is a major event on the way to the Last Battle. Remember that if he had chosen differently, there wouldn't be a Last Battle to begin with. Creation would have been destroyed.

Everything after that even in Towers of Midnight points to Rand being significantly changed. Again, I believe this is a more unique occurrence and Lews Therin at no point in time ever had what Rand now possesses inside of himself.

The movement of the story and everything relating to Rand is pointing to him as a Messiah, a Jesus figure, a Savior. At this point in the story, to put yet ANOTHER twist where this Jesus-like Randzen all of a sudden is a fool and a pawn for Moridin just wouldn't make any thematic sense to me.

When I read Rand in ToM, I don't get the impression at all that here is a character that is essentially a dupe for the Shadow. That his desire to destroy the Seals and clear the rubble is something that is being "introduced" into his mind from Moridin who not only KNOW perhaps that they are linked but is now actively using the link to get Rand to break the seals.

Is it possible? Yes, it is. But it goes against basic good storytelling principles and the way that Rand is being written right now. The time when he was the Shadow's puppet, when he was blind is OVER NOW. That was The Gathering Storm, the epiphany of Veins of Gold. After all that, you would say WAIT, he STILL IS BLIND, he's still being manipulated by Moridin, he's got it all wrong, YOU CAN'T BREAK THE SEALS, SILLY!

No, that would be cheapening the transformation he underwent on the top of Dragonmount.

As of Towers of Midnight, I'd say about 95 percent of the world is with Egwene and think breaking the Seals is a bad and crazy idea. They don't think breaking the Seals NOW is a bad idea, they think breaking the seals EVER is a bad idea. And that is the obvious feeling, the obvious emotion.

In point of fact, Egwene has the majority opinion. But she is wrong here. And the majority is wrong as well. Fel was originally against the idea because he was thinking conventionally.

The minute his research led him to his breakthrough and led him to think outside the box, he was murdered. I believe he came to the correct realization that the most unconventional thing to do would be to in fact break the Seals and that the only way to properly seal the Bore is to do this.

To suggest that Fel was compelled by Moridin, the very books Min was reading switched around, all of these shenannigans to get Rand to break the Seals . . . well this is Wheel of Time and not an Agatha Christie mystery novel. It is just too convoluted.

Now, I'm not saying that Rand should have broken the Seals in Fires of Heaven or Lord of Chaos. Back then, he wasn't ready yet.

But now, he is. He has embraced his fate and is ready to face the Dark One and he knows intuitively he cannot do this without breaking the Seals and letting the Dark One free first.

I'm also beginning to feel that in point of fact, no one is going to kill him and resurrect him in some tricky manner like Terez suggested. Rand will face the Dark One and willingly die to achieve salvation for the world. I think his resurrection will have more to do with love and hope and faith and the emotions and feelings of the people of the world than anything so clinical and well-orchestrated as ripping him out of the Dream World.

In other words, I think the end of The Wheel of Time is going to be more spiritual and less full of "Verin" twists.

By the way, unlike some, I also don't think Egwene is wrong for opposing Rand and trying to gather opposition. As far as she is concerned such a step would destroy the world. She still thinks of Rand as a male channeler with questionable sanity in need of the guidance of the White Tower and not as the Dragon Reborn. One can argue that she actually has no idea what the Dragon Reborn truly IS and MEANS. So you can't blame her for her actions. But I am surprised that there are READERS who side with her. I guess it was just intuitively obvious to me that we are meant to be with Rand on this.

If Perrin, Nynaeve, Min, Herid Fel support Jesus Rand, then I'm with them over Egwene, Elayne, and the rest of the world.

Dennis

dfchang813 11-03-2010 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121506)
.


I agree, and I think it's more suggestion that he's not free of the Shadow's influence. Jesus-Rand is too good to be true.

It's just hard for me to buy that. I think the days of Rand being tricked, dominated, or made a puppet of the Dark One or the Shadow is over.

Sure he still has limitations. He CAN'T be everywhere at once, he still has two wounds in his side that won't heal, the Taint is still there on his mind, and yes, he is still linked to Moridin.

But he's not meant to fight Shadow armies anyway. Right now, he understands that his role as the Dragon Reborn is to face the Dark One, die, and hopefully seal the Bore or destroy the Dark One in the process.

From a thematic point of view, I just find it unbelievable that after all we've read, the Shadow is still exerting influence on his mind and putting thoughts into his head and emotions into his heart that he isn't aware of.

I'm not saying the Moridin link isn't important, I just don't think the repercussions are so base as Moridin making Rand think and feel things against his will.

Dennis

Davian93 11-03-2010 06:56 AM

I agree that its a matter of perception of what Rand is. Most everyone seems to think that Rand is merely a very powerful male channeler and ta'veren. However, at this point, he's far more than that. He's literally the Creator clothed in flesh. His mere presence holds off the DO. Perhaps if Egwene had more exposure to him (and his recent miracles), she'd be more willing to trust in his plan.

I think Rand is completely right. The Seals need to be broken as soon as possible, while the Light still has some strength left. If they hold back a few months to study the issue, the Trolloc hoards will have likely overrun the Borderlands, destroyed Andor, etc etc. This all fits in with RJ's comments of the Light having only a puncher's chance at this point. Its late in the fight, they're down on points but one big knockout punch can still win it. Rand seems to recognize that reality and is doing something about it.

Egwene's intentions are good but they're still wrong as I dont think she fully realizes just how grave the situation is at this point...and likely wont until its too late. Rand clearly knows that it needs to happen at a certain time and place (his comments at Maradon show this)...he's operating on some knowledge that we aren't privy to. There's a reason that most of our Rand scenes were from other POVs in this book...we dont have a ton of insight into his head since his epiphany.

Tamyrlin 11-03-2010 09:56 AM

See, I don't think Rand is the Creator in Flesh
 
LTT didn't struggle with the madness until after the Bore was sealed. Instead, he spent hundred of years honing his craft. And then in war, he spent at least a hundred years becoming a great general and weapon in his own right. He was Ta'veren, he came to understand the Pattern and being Ta'veren for a hundred plus years and he learned how to use that to strike at the Shadow.

In my opinion, Rand's new found abilities are all factors of his knowledge from LTT's life. He is now as confident as LTT, with some tempering from his own life. He now understands the Dark One and the shadow as LTT did. He now understands what it means to be Ta'veren and the Dragon. I think this becomes clear when we finally get his PoV in the Epilogue.

Davian93 11-03-2010 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121630)
LTT didn't struggle with the madness until after the Bore was sealed. Instead, he spent hundred of years honing his craft. And then in war, he spent at least a hundred years becoming a great general and weapon in his own right. He was Ta'veren, he came to understand the Pattern and being Ta'veren for a hundred plus years and he learned how to use that to strike at the Shadow.

In my opinion, Rand's new found abilities are all factors of his knowledge from LTT's life. He is now as confident as LTT, with some tempering from his own life. He now understands the Dark One and the shadow as LTT did. He now understands what it means to be Ta'veren and the Dragon. I think this becomes clear when we finally get his PoV in the Epilogue.

I think he has all that but it seems to be something more. His immense ability with the power suddenly (his weaving at Maradon should be impossible for an unaided Channeler) implies that its something more. The "liquid power" that Nynaeve sees during her Delving also hints that he's basically infused with the Creator's essence. I think he got a lot more out of his most recent PLE than you're giving him credit for.

Tamyrlin 11-03-2010 10:06 AM

I don't think anyone has every known an AoLer like this
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 121634)
I think he has all that but it seems to be something more. His immense ability with the power suddenly (his weaving at Maradon should be impossible for an unaided Channeler) implies that its something more. The "liquid power" that Nynaeve sees during her Delving also hints that he's basically infused with the Creator's essence. I think he got a lot more out of his most recent PLE than you're giving him credit for.

No one has had the chance to watch LTT in action. We've always seen the shadow of him in Rand and stuff Rand has done. But now we are getting pure LTT in those moments like the one you described in Maradon (and we don't know if Rand has an angreal or such handy, which I'm sure he does - I'd guess it was standard protocol for LTT to always have a sa'angreal or angreal or two in his pocket considering he was always a target for most of the end of his life.)

The only thing that I find goes without a true explanation is the coating Nynaeve finds around the madness in his mind. Calling it the Creator's essence is a theory that could be interesting, but to me, it's the only thing that doesn't have an almost definite explanation. But I think we are meant to believe that Rand is Jesus/Zen/Creator, when 99% of it can be explained in the extra four hundred years of LTT's experience, knowledge and power.

Davian93 11-03-2010 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121635)
No one has had the chance to watch LTT in action. We've always seen the shadow of him in Rand and stuff Rand has done. But now we are getting pure LTT in those moments like the one you described in Maradon (and we don't know if Rand has an angreal or such handy, which I'm sure he does - I'd guess it was standard protocol for LTT to always have a sa'angreal or angreal or two in his pocket considering he was always a target for most of the end of his life.)

The only thing that I find goes without a true explanation is the coating Nynaeve finds around the madness in his mind. Calling it the Creator's essence is a theory that could be interesting, but to me, it's the only thing that doesn't have an almost definite explanation. But I think we are meant to believe that Rand is Jesus/Zen/Creator, when 99% of it can be explained in the extra four hundred years of LTT's experience, knowledge and power.


LTT & Ishamael were said to be equals when it came to channeling in the AoL with Demandred close behind. If LTT could always channel literally thousands of weaves at a time then he was exponentially more powerful than any other male channeler. That doesnt fit in with what we know of their respective strengths. Also, as far as we know, Rand didnt have an angreal on him. He got rid of the CK key, Callandor was with Cadsuane and we have no indications that he picked up any other angreal since then.

I agree that it was likely standard protocol for LTT to have a major angreal/sa'angreal on his person at all times as Leader of the Light during the War of Power. However, I dont think mere knowledge would allow Rand's power to suddenly massively increase like it appears to have done. Something else is going on here beyond mere knowledge. Add in the odd power aura in his brain and Nynaeve's impression of it as liquid power and I'm going with my Creator Avatar/Creator clothed in flesh theory.

LoialT 11-03-2010 10:20 AM

I think we are jumping to conclusions about Herid Fel's Death
 
I think Terez makes a very compelling argument that we might want to be a little more skeptical about Rand's plan to break the seals, but I don't think we can really point to Herid Fel's murder as proof.

First off, the only Forsaken who would give a damn about philosophy like this would have been Ishamael/Moridin, and readers had no indication that he was reincarnated until the next book.

Furthermore, every indication was that the Gholam was working for Sammael until maybe very recently.

Most importantly, though, is the utter absurdity of using a Gholam to kill Herid Fel. Why employ an incredibly rare and lethal weapon designed to kill powerful channelers to off a scholar? Couldn't he have been murdered gruesomely in any number of ways if it was just to make a point?

No, I think it by far the most likely that the Gholam was sent to kill that man who reports indicated was very close to Rand, but also reclusive and who seemed to spend a lot of time ALONE with the Dragon Reborn. Who does this sound like? ASMODEAN. Sammael likely thought from reports that Asmodean was posing as Herid Fel (after all, Lanear was always reticent about sharing information with the other Forsaken so there is no reason to believe they would know that Jasin Natael (sp?) was Asmo). So, he sent his channeler assassin after the Dragon Reborn's new teacher, but ended up killing the wrong guy.

Now, this may have ended up giving Rand more reason to believe that Herid was on to something important, but the force behind this would not be the Shadow. It would have been the Wheel forcing Sammael to make a mistake to encourage Rand down a certain path.

Not sure ultimately what this would mean, but I thought it important to question one of the assumptions everyone seems to be running with.

LoialT

LoialT 11-03-2010 10:39 AM

also, this is my first (okay, literally second) time posting here, but I have long been a fan! So... hello everyone!

LoialT

Davian93 11-03-2010 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
The only thing that I find goes without a true explanation is the coating Nynaeve finds around the madness in his mind. Calling it the Creator's essence is a theory that could be interesting, but to me, it's the only thing that doesn't have an almost definite explanation.


If I have time tonight, I might actually try to write that up as an actual theory. It wont end up being very long but I've been pushing the Rand=Creator's Avatar theory a bunch lately. ToM seems to support that IMHO so I'll give it a go.



I'm not big on creating theories so it likely wont be to the level/depth of a Terez or Callandor effort.

arioch 11-03-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoialT (Post 121638)
but I don't think we can really point to Herid Fel's murder as proof.

I really like this analysis. The gholam really COULD have killed Herid Fel because Sammael assumed Herid was Asmodean.

wrmusgro 11-03-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121504)
I am assuming at this point that Rand will figure out he's still linked to Moridin. He will understand why he needs to die. And Min will figure out that Birgitte is still tied to the Wheel...so, they kill him (someone will, and Alivia will help...I still lean toward Gawyn and Moiraine both being involved), and prevent him from breaking the seals. I have won again, Lews Therin. Then they resurrect him sans-Moridin, give him the dagger ter'angreal, and send him off to fix things at Shayol Ghul. The Shadow won't see him coming. Or, they might know he's coming when Slayer fails to kill Rand forever in Tel'aran'rhiod, but they won't be able to see him!

Or, that's my thoughts right now. We have a long time to theorize on this one.

You do realize that your theories are wrong more often than not right? You have no longer have any basis whatsoever to believe that Gawn will kill Rand. In fact, the events of TOM should resolutely kill that theory now that Gawn knows that Rand didn't kill his mother.

Also, you have no hard proof whatsoever to support your theory that the seals aren't meant to be broken. You are simply hypothesizing from a few random quotes that cannot be tied together. This once again resembles your "Fain is the Shadowspawn stealer" theory which was thouroughly repudiated in TOM. (unless you are going to somehow argue that it was he who moved all of the Trollocs to Camelyn for the attack at the end of TOM)

Sorry if my post sounded harsh, but your theory is simply unbelievable.

Davian93 11-03-2010 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrmusgro (Post 121709)
You do realize that your theories are wrong more often than not right? You have no longer have any basis whatsoever to believe that Gawn will kill Rand. In fact, the events of TOM should resolutely kill that theory now that Gawn knows that Rand didn't kill his mother.

Also, you have no hard proof whatsoever to support your theory that the seals aren't meant to be broken. You are simply hypothesizing from a few random quotes that cannot be tied together. This once again resembles your "Fain is the Shadowspawn stealer" theory which was thouroughly repudiated in TOM. (unless you are going to somehow argue that it was he who moved all of the Trollocs to Camelyn for the attack at the end of TOM)

Sorry if my post sounded harsh, but your theory is simply unbelievable.


I think a simple, "I disagree" would have sufficed.

arioch 11-03-2010 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrmusgro (Post 121709)
You do realize that your theories are wrong more often than not right? You have no longer have any basis whatsoever to believe that Gawn will kill Rand. In fact, the events of TOM should resolutely kill that theory now that Gawn knows that Rand didn't kill his mother.

Also, you have no hard proof whatsoever to support your theory that the seals aren't meant to be broken. You are simply hypothesizing from a few random quotes that cannot be tied together. This once again resembles your "Fain is the Shadowspawn stealer" theory which was thouroughly repudiated in TOM. (unless you are going to somehow argue that it was he who moved all of the Trollocs to Camelyn for the attack at the end of TOM)

Sorry if my post sounded harsh, but your theory is simply unbelievable.

I'm sorry? How was that theory thoroughly repudiated again?

Xelun 11-03-2010 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121635)
No one has had the chance to watch LTT in action. We've always seen the shadow of him in Rand and stuff Rand has done. But now we are getting pure LTT in those moments like the one you described in Maradon (and we don't know if Rand has an angreal or such handy, which I'm sure he does - I'd guess it was standard protocol for LTT to always have a sa'angreal or angreal or two in his pocket considering he was always a target for most of the end of his life.)

Well, you could make the argument from EotW prologue that a man capable of making a massive volcano and diverting a river simply as a side effect of wanting to kill himself shows LTT to have been very strong and/or always had a *'greal. We have technically seen LTT in some sort of action before, though I'm inclined to believe that there's more to new-Rand than just merging with LTT.

zanethanatos 11-03-2010 02:41 PM

He also did say that the effort at Maradon weakened him considerably and that he would be no match for any of his enemies. He said that using that level of power was a mistake - so perhaps it may not be an unreachable level but rather a safety issue in a way. LTT would have been a poor general if he expended all his strength on a single effort when he knows it would not win the war. There probably is more to him that just a merge with LTT but it seemed to be his appearance reversed the laws of chance (which it has always done) he has just found a way to channel it to specific tasks.

Terez 11-03-2010 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrmusgro (Post 121709)
You do realize that your theories are wrong more often than not right?

Actually, they are right far more often than wrong. Not sure what made you think you're an expert on the subject. But I don't think anyone has ever gotten to my ignore list so fast...I was going to put you on it for making crude jokes about RJ's death and idiotic comments about 'errors', but decided to give you a chance (which you just blew here).

Quote:

Originally Posted by arioch (Post 121707)
I really like this analysis. The gholam really COULD have killed Herid Fel because Sammael assumed Herid was Asmodean.

I get the feeling no one actually read my theory. Scroll up. RJ told us why Fel was killed, and it wasn't on accident.

Davian93 11-03-2010 04:34 PM

I read it...and I think it's pretty well written. I simply dont think its that complicated is all.

There's nothing that outright makes it impossible though so its definitely a possibility.

Grig 11-03-2010 05:37 PM

Quote:

I get the feeling no one actually read my theory. Scroll up. RJ told us why Fel was killed, and it wasn't on accident.
The only RJ answer I saw in the database was "Fel was killed because somebody thought he might reveal too much". That doesn't explicitly rule out the person who sent the gholam believing that "Fel" was really Asmodean, but it does seem unnecessarily complicated.

I do wonder if Sanderson would RAFO a question on whether the "clearing the rubble" note was written by Fel. I haven't seen it asked, and it would go a ways to dispel theories on whether breaking the seals at this point is a bad thing (and the note is a Shadow ploy to manipulate him into doing it).

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 07:01 PM

the Seal on the Dark One's prison (and keep in mind that it is a singular Seal, the discs that everyone calls Seals are just foci for maintaining the weave) has to go, if for no other reason then they're weak.

In Terez's summary she points out repeatedly that the Dark One is capable of breaking through the first attempt to seal the Bore. If you were to create another Seal incorporating the first, well the former would be a weakness that could be exploited and if it were left behind and another Seal just placed 'on top' as it were, that could also be a problem.

As Perrin says you cannot put the pieces of a sword back together, you have to start a-new.

Now, a more interesting line of thought would be a) Rand's idea to include female channelers and, well, this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Budapest Q&A - April 2003
Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?
RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?
Qs: Yes, yes.
RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [It was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.



On one hand, we know the idea of including women in the same process of Sealing the Bore would be bad as it might well result in both saidin and saidar being tainted...then again, from the flip side the whole point of Rand going to Tar Valon was for the Aes Sedai to come up with a new way of Sealing the Bore, or a new idea in how to attempt it.


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