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Xelun 11-03-2010 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 121910)
the Seal on the Dark One's prison (and keep in mind that it is a singular Seal, the discs that everyone calls Seals are just foci for maintaining the weave) has to go, if for no other reason then they're weak.

In Terez's summary she points out repeatedly that the Dark One is capable of breaking through the first attempt to seal the Bore. If you were to create another Seal incorporating the first, well the former would be a weakness that could be exploited and if it were left behind and another Seal just placed 'on top' as it were, that could also be a problem.

As Perrin says you cannot put the pieces of a sword back together, you have to start a-new.

Now, a more interesting line of thought would be a) Rand's idea to include female channelers and, well, this



On one hand, we know the idea of including women in the same process of Sealing the Bore would be bad as it might well result in both saidin and saidar being tainted...then again, from the flip side the whole point of Rand going to Tar Valon was for the Aes Sedai to come up with a new way of Sealing the Bore, or a new idea in how to attempt it.
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Well, Rand is aware through LTT (or at least should be aware based on what LTT said) that the reason saidin was tainted was because they had to touch it to the Dark One. Since it will not be acceptable to taint saidin or saidar, if they find something else to touch to the DO, then it doesn't matter what else plays a part. And we know that the greatest acts of the Power in the AoL were accomplished with saidin and saidar together.

Terez 11-03-2010 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 121910)
the Seal on the Dark One's prison (and keep in mind that it is a singular Seal, the discs that everyone calls Seals are just foci for maintaining the weave) has to go, if for no other reason then they're weak.

That doesn't mean that breaking them isn't dangerous, and exactly what the Dark One wants him to do. There might be a way to go about dissolving that seal without breaking the focal points, which has the potential to rip the prison open entirely. Breaking them is not the only way...and that is quite aside from the fact that Rand still doesn't seem to have a plan.

Davian93 11-03-2010 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121924)
That doesn't mean that breaking them isn't dangerous, and exactly what the Dark One wants him to do. There might be a way to go about dissolving that seal without breaking the focal points, which has the potential to rip the prison open entirely. Breaking them is not the only way...and that is quite aside from the fact that Rand still doesn't seem to have a plan.

Rand seemingly has very good reasons to want to break them.

1. The Light is running out of time as they're losing and losing badly.

2. He seems to think that there is a very specific time and place he has to confront the DO (based on his comments on that matter). I'd love to know why he thinks that but I doubt we'll get that POV unfortunately.

3. He believes that to patch it correctly, the old patch has to go first...and logically, that makes sense.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 121635)
No one has had the chance to watch LTT in action. We've always seen the shadow of him in Rand and stuff Rand has done. But now we are getting pure LTT in those moments like the one you described in Maradon (and we don't know if Rand has an angreal or such handy, which I'm sure he does - I'd guess it was standard protocol for LTT to always have a sa'angreal or angreal or two in his pocket considering he was always a target for most of the end of his life.)

The only thing that I find goes without a true explanation is the coating Nynaeve finds around the madness in his mind. Calling it the Creator's essence is a theory that could be interesting, but to me, it's the only thing that doesn't have an almost definite explanation. But I think we are meant to believe that Rand is Jesus/Zen/Creator, when 99% of it can be explained in the extra four hundred years of LTT's experience, knowledge and power.

Perhaps Aviendha's children are a hint to what the Liquid Light is that's keeping the DO's taint at bay. Padra and her siblings were channelling as children. She weaves a gateway reflexively as we would drive a car, she thinks she wants a gateway and it's done. She never releases the Power, not even when sleeping.

If these children are conceived while Rand is still under this effect, it might explain why they are so different. That superior connection to the Source, hints at a better connection to the Wheel itself. It might be more of a uber-ta'veren sort of thing then anything else (although this goes into some old, fairly esoteric "nature of the Wheel, the Pattern, and how Channeling works" sort of stuff).

Terez 11-03-2010 07:20 PM

Again, Rand's reasons for thinking they need to be broken are highly suspect. As I explained in the post before, which you apparently did not comprehend, there might easily be other ways to get rid of the other seal without breaking the seals, which is potentially highly dangerous.

But there's no sense in arguing this with an Egwene-hater; there's not anything I could ever do to convince you that she has the right idea about something.

Zore 11-03-2010 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121924)
That doesn't mean that breaking them isn't dangerous, and exactly what the Dark One wants him to do. There might be a way to go about dissolving that seal without breaking the focal points, which has the potential to rip the prison open entirely. Breaking them is not the only way...and that is quite aside from the fact that Rand still doesn't seem to have a plan.

Rand may have a plan that isn't revealed to the audience, that particular trick has been used multiple times by Jordan in the past. That said I like your theory as it provides a very neat central conflict and despair moment in the final book. It would also be thematically appropriate in some ways, Rand succeeding where Lews Therin did not even after falling victim to a shadow plot.

Terez 11-03-2010 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zore (Post 121937)
Rand may have a plan that isn't revealed to the audience, that particular trick has been used multiple times by Jordan in the past.

RJ has never had Rand beg Min to find the answer for him when he already knew the answer.

Davian93 11-03-2010 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121935)
Again, Rand's reasons for thinking they need to be broken are highly suspect. As I explained in the post before, which you apparently did not comprehend, there might easily be other ways to get rid of the other seal without breaking the seals, which is potentially highly dangerous.

But there's no sense in arguing this with an Egwene-hater; there's not anything I could ever do to convince you that she has the right idea about something.

Rand's comments on the matter fit with RJ's "punchers chance" comment about the Light's situation. In fact, Rand basically echos RJ on it.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121935)
Again, Rand's reasons for thinking they need to be broken are highly suspect. As I explained in the post before, which you apparently did not comprehend, there might easily be other ways to get rid of the other seal without breaking the seals, which is potentially highly dangerous.

But there's no sense in arguing this with an Egwene-hater; there's not anything I could ever do to convince you that she has the right idea about something.

I disagree Terez. They're Foci, they just maintain the Seal over the Bore. You break them, and they just stop maintaining the Seal...and it just sorta dissolves as you suggest.

Going over to your Prophecy thread, I disagree with your interpretation of Egwene's dream about the Crystal Sphere, I think that is the Seal on the Dark One's prison with the ropes being the Foci. Rand doesn't smash the Seal it self, he takes the Foci, as the Dream suggest and the Sphere comes a part on it's own.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 07:28 PM

nor request that Egwene and all the Aes Sedai that she's got available spend a month researching what they can to come up with a plan either.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 07:31 PM

and yet, he specifically says that last time he probably failed because he didn't have women involved with the project. Granted, from the way it sorta sounds, he might well realize that women being involved would have tainted saidar, which could be the request to Min and Egwene for new ideas on how it might be accomplished.

Terez 11-03-2010 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grig (Post 121847)
The only RJ answer I saw in the database was "Fel was killed because somebody thought he might reveal too much". That doesn't explicitly rule out the person who sent the gholam believing that "Fel" was really Asmodean, but it does seem unnecessarily complicated.

It's hard to see how someone could mix them up. And at the time Fel was killed, the Dark One had known about Asmodean's death for some time. Sammael might have still been ignorant of it, but there is nothing to connect Sammael to Fel other than the gholam.

Quote:

I do wonder if Sanderson would RAFO a question on whether the "clearing the rubble" note was written by Fel.
I addressed that possibility in the theory, and it wouldn't necessarily mean that the advice was sound at all.

Terez 11-03-2010 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 121942)
I disagree Terez. They're Foci, they just maintain the Seal over the Bore. You break them, and they just stop maintaining the Seal...and it just sorta dissolves as you suggest.

There is no evidence for that other than your opinion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SBX
Going over to your Prophecy thread, I disagree with your interpretation of Egwene's dream about the Crystal Sphere, I think that is the Seal on the Dark One's prison with the ropes being the Foci. Rand doesn't smash the Seal it self, he takes the Foci, as the Dream suggest and the Sphere comes a part on it's own.

Doesn't make sense. For one, why 23 points of light? The connection to Aviendha's vision has a perfect explanation for that, not to mention the crystal connection. The seals...makes no sense at all.

flinn 11-03-2010 08:56 PM

I know this is off topic but since it was brought up in the thread I want to add my opinion. Like in alot of fantasy the creator and the darkone cannot square off directly, they use champions. It seems pretty clear to me, Rand is the creator's, Moridin is the DOs. Notice things are happening to Moridin as well. After the epiphany on the mountain, the Last Battle was locked in for certain. Now the champions are coming into their respective powers. More than just 2 male channelers. The light on his brain did not come from Lews Therin's knowledge. It is protection from the creator that his champion will need to perform his duties. IMO of course.

Davian93 11-03-2010 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flinn (Post 122020)
I know this is off topic but since it was brought up in the thread I want to add my opinion. Like in alot of fantasy the creator and the darkone cannot square off directly, they use champions. It seems pretty clear to me, Rand is the creator's, Moridin is the DOs. Notice things are happening to Moridin as well. After the epiphany on the mountain, the Last Battle was locked in for certain. Now the champions are coming into their respective powers. More than just 2 male channelers. The light on his brain did not come from Lews Therin's knowledge. It is protection from the creator that his champion will need to perform his duties. IMO of course.

I'm "fleshing" out a theory on "Rand is the Creator's Avatar" at this very moment.

I've been pushing it since the end of TGS. Its seems intuitively obvious to me. Rand is basically the Creator in the flesh at this point.


EDIT: I've also submitted a formal Faction on the matter titled "Rand - The Creator's Avatar". Hopefully Tam approves it. I tried to keep it spoiler free.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121954)
There is no evidence for that other than your opinion.


Doesn't make sense. For one, why 23 points of light? The connection to Aviendha's vision has a perfect explanation for that, not to mention the crystal connection. The seals...makes no sense at all.

The Seal is a barrier over a gap, possibly similar to a Shield of the Power to block someone's access to the source. Even if it isn't it's still a weave of the One Power and those either need to be maintained or tied off.

In this particular case you cannot just leave that shield tied off and hope that it'll stay there or that no one will come along and just undo them. That's where the foci come in. You remove those foci, like you unknot a weave and it just dissipates.

Actually, it makes perfect sense: it's the conclusion that Egwene comes to about the Dream. Aviendha's vision just happens to have about the right number of people involved (and it's your opinion that it's those 22 plus Rand that makes the 23).

Regardless, to go with another parallel there's Min's visions of Rand, a massive darkness with stars rushing in to fill it up. In this particular case it's 23 specific points of light, stars that are watching what happens. There could be 23 people with Rand as he destroys the final Foci, or there could be 23 groups of people that show up for the meeting.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 09:10 PM

I like the uber-ta'veren myself.

Davian93 11-03-2010 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 122035)
I like the uber-ta'veren myself.

Its more than that though. He's infused with the Creator's power if Nynaeve's delving is to be believed. "liquid power" is the wording used.

flinn 11-03-2010 09:17 PM

Just to add abit more to that. In fantasy in particular sticks out, the David Eddings series. Where "events" were important. Makes me think about Mat's dice. When an "event" is coming his dice begin rattling. Most often the event is a decision or choice being made. One the choice is decided it locks in the next series of "events". The creator's champion bounced around to the people who were the object of the events then took over during whatever action was needed. Now of course its not that pronounced, and Rand is and always will be the Light's champion, but each character has had "events" that locked in the course of action for the pattern. Rand's epiphany was one of the final events, locking in the last battle.
On topic, I agree with Rand. Seals need to be destroyed. Sooner the better while the Light still has some strength. Another few months and the trollocs will have destroyed most of Randland.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 122037)
Its more than that though. He's infused with the Creator's power if Nynaeve's delving is to be believed. "liquid power" is the wording used.

or that could just be the Wheel's influence. It would also account for his hour-long super slaughter of the Trollocs outside Maradon...although the idea that booze can be used to overcome the Taint is kinda neat too.


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