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Davian93 11-03-2010 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 122074)
or that could just be the Wheel's influence. It would also account for his hour-long super slaughter of the Trollocs outside Maradon...although the idea that booze can be used to overcome the Taint is kinda neat too.

Why would the Wheel's influence allow that? He's accomplishing things he shouldnt be capable of doing and things that even LTT wasn't supposedly able to do as LTT was merely the most powerful channeler but still no stronger than Ishamael. However, it could be the "Wheel's" influence if you consider that the Wheel is merely part of the Creator.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 11:24 PM

The Wheel is essentially the Universe. It controls the rules of existence. It's powered the the One Power, perhaps Quantum Gravity. Normally, things conduct themselves as they should, gravity, magnetism, weak and strong forces, conservation of energy, etc. all apply.

Then you get some of those funky types that can tap into that power themselves, and then all of a sudden, stuff gets weird. Suddenly, instead of you know people just pointing at one another, they've got the ability to summon up massive amount of energy and release it as heat and light (fireballs), or direct how the wind flows, or cause earthquakes, or just change the distance so that instead of A and B being several thousand miles a part, they're the same point. That's all people making tiny alterations to the Weaving of the Wheel. Microscopic changes all things considered, but still changes none-the-less. You've also got the DO who's like the equivalent of an interfering signal messing with the Wheel, or perhaps more like a computer virus. Instead of 1+1=2, it's now 3 with the DO around.

Then you get Rand the uber-ta'veren, he's like the walking anti-virus that's stopping the DO. Instead of normally just twisting the threads back on course, he's able to shift the very weaving of the Wheel back on track, making Apple Orchards grow, bringing Order to the Chaos that was Bendar Eban.

As an additional effect he's now able to channel better, or at least it would seem so as that display he put on for an entire hour of Trolloc slaughter seems like even more then what we've come to expect from Rand. There might be an indication of what's happening as I mentioned down below with Aviendha's children, specifically Padra and their affinity with Channeling, but that's a bit of a guess atm.

LoialT 11-03-2010 11:27 PM

Terez, I did read your theory! And I really enjoyed it, even if I ultimately disagree that the Shadow has been trying to get Rand to "clear the rubble." I do agree that we should be a little worried that Rand is unwavering in his decision to break the seals when he has no idea what he will do next. And Fel's books do bear an uncanny resemblance to Ishy's AoL books (at least in title).

However, I'd just like to say that RJ's quote that "Fel was killed because somebody thought he might reveal too much" is hardly proof that he was killed because somebody thought he would reveal too much about sealing the bore.

And I still maintain that it doesn't make sense that somebody (even if it was Moridin) would send the gholam to kill Fel, unless they thought Fel was a powerful channeler. And if whoever mistakenly thought Fel was a powerful channeler, then why should we assume he knew ANYTHING about what Fel was telling Rand?

We do know that Sammael in LoC was doubtful about Asmodean's location, or at least pretended not to to know in his conversations with Graendal. He also indicated that he believed that Lanfear and Asmodean had betrayed the rest of the Forsaken involved in the plot to kill Rand that ended up with Rahvin dying. His spies near Rand likely told him that Rand was meeting alone with a certain loner-scholar at the Academy where new inventions (especially weapons) were being developed. If he thought that Asmo was hiding, he may have believed that he was disguised as Fel and was helping to either develop AoL style weapons or to continue teaching Rand deadly AoL weaves (either of which would satisfy the "Fel was killed because somebody thought he might reveal too much" quote.

Finally, if what Fel said in that last little note (the only evidence that he was thinking about breaking the seals and something only Rand read), it would be a little un-RJ-like, IMHO to tell us straight out that Fel was killed to prevent Rand from learning this. It feels like a classic RAFO moment unless he was being a little misleading.

I would also expect that his study (and not just his body) would have been totally trashed if his death was about written or scholarly information (as opposed to knowledge of OP techniques). Here is the quote describing poor Fel's death:

"Sitting in his study, Herid was peering into his pipe and wondering whether he had the means of lighting it at hand when the Gholam squeezed under the door. Of course, even if Fel had been paying attention, he would not have believed, and once the Gholam was inside the room, few men would have stood any chance. When Idrien came to Fel's study later, she stared at what was piled none too neatly on the floor beside the table. It took her a moment to realize what it was, and when she did, she fainted before she could get a scream out. However many times she heard of someone torn limb from limb, she had never seen it before." (LoC, The Answer)

From the quote it looks like the study was otherwise in normal condition except for the flesh pile that was once Herid Fel. Not what you would expect if his death was about his research or if his death was designed to substantiate his research.

DomA over at RAFO has written about this too, so I don't think I am being completely crazy.

I could be totally wrong, and it would hardly be the first time. But I don't think I am necessarily reading too much into the RJ quote. On the contrary, I think trying to explain the Gholam assassinating Fel as anything other than a case of mistaken identity is the real stretch.

alleluia_cone 11-03-2010 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121935)
Again, Rand's reasons for thinking they need to be broken are highly suspect. As I explained in the post before, which you apparently did not comprehend, there might easily be other ways to get rid of the other seal without breaking the seals, which is potentially highly dangerous.

But there's no sense in arguing this with an Egwene-hater; there's not anything I could ever do to convince you that she has the right idea about something.

You know, at least the way it appears to me, Rand does seem pretty open to suggestion. If Egwene actually found the answer I think he would accept it. Like, as you suggested, if there is some other way to dissolve the seals. Rand is probably even open to discussing the issue with her but I'm not sure she understands he has a lot of concerns all over the world that he has to deal with and can't simply vacation in the White Tower. And I don't even know if that would have been to Egwene's benefit anyway; with his ta'veren nature, Rand is probably liable to get every sister besides Egewene to swear fealty to him by the end of the month. I think the smart move would have been to send Siuan and her ter'angreal with him so they could keep in contact without limiting Rand's necessary movements. Actually, if the ter'angreal works for men, she should have just given it to him. Why this never occurred to her, I don't know, but she must know by now that even the appearance of plotting behind his back is the worse way imaginable to gain his trust.

Alternatively, and this is the cynical view, Rand has no actual intention of breaking the seals, or not yet anyway, but he wanted to create that appearance for Egwene in order to hand her the task of gathering all his allies.

ShadowbaneX 11-03-2010 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alleluia_cone (Post 122119)
Alternatively, and this is the cynical view, Rand has no actual intention of breaking the seals, or not yet anyway, but he wanted to create that appearance for Egwene in order to hand her the task of gathering all his allies.

Nah, Rand's thoughts at the end of the book make it pretty clear he's breaking the Seal regardless of what anyone says.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ToM; Epilogue - And After
On the morrow, they'd hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals - he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One


Terez 11-03-2010 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alleluia_cone (Post 122119)
You know, at least the way it appears to me, Rand does seem pretty open to suggestion.

Aside from the fact that he said he was going to break them no matter how much support Egwene gathered? Read his POV again.

alleluia_cone 11-03-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 122123)
Aside from the fact that he said he was going to break them no matter how much support Egwene gathered? Read his POV again.

Yes, he thinks this but if Min or Moiraine were to tell him to do differently and had legitimate argument not to do so, I think he would listen. Actually, I think if Rand knew that Egwene was a dreamer that could also help matters greatly; I'm not sure of this, but am I right in thinking he does not know this?

Edit: By the way, I think you're right in your general point that Rand doesn't trust Egwene but then again, the feeling is mutual.

fionwe1987 11-04-2010 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alleluia_cone (Post 122128)
Edit: By the way, I think you're right in your general point that Rand doesn't trust Egwene but then again, the feeling is mutual.

Is it? Egwene thinks Rand was the kind of man you would trust the fate of the world with. That doesn't seem like a lack of trust.

And before anyone says she should then blindly follow
his plan to break the seals... she trusts him. That doesn't mean she cannot have a different opinion.

ZaderGru 11-04-2010 06:01 AM

Why does everyone assume Sammeul sent the gholam to kill Fel.

Aren't there 2 different gholams. 1 kills by draining people's blood and the other one kills by dismembering.

Terez 11-04-2010 07:19 AM

It's an old theory that there are two of them, but the main reason for the theory is that Fel was killed (in Cairhien) the day before Sammael said he was going to send his gholam after the Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar. I doubt it could travel that fast even by the Ways, though of course we didn't see it in Ebou Dar until six days after Fel was killed.

maacaroni 11-04-2010 09:25 AM

Egwene is being manipulated by Rand. He outright says in 'Apples First' that "she isn't going to like it".

He knew she would oppose him, and by summoning the various monarchs to Merryland she is doing his job for him.

He also mentions that they should attack SG while they are strong enough to do so. All these bubbles of evil are getting worse and more common and killing - it is death by a thousand cuts.

As for Egwene, to be fair to her, and too many are not, she is only putting forward a legitimate worry that by breaking the seals you could make things worse. The Latra Posae analogy is a deliberate means of comparison: yes, they sealed the bore, but at a high cost. Imagine what would have happened if both saidin AND saidar would have been tainted. Just because he is the light's champion, does not automatically make him right.

As to how he closes it, the word BUFFER springs to mind.

fionwe1987 11-04-2010 09:30 AM

Hey Terez...

I have a new theory on the 23 stars... making a new post about it..

astateofdenmark 11-04-2010 11:08 AM

Hello all.

Great OP. Personally think the Herid Fel stuff is making a bit complex, but agree with the general thrust:

1 - Shadow want the seals broken.
2 - Rand is capable of being influenced by his link to Moridin and vice versa. (The dream at the end is a massive red flag)
3 - Breaking the seals without knowing what to do next is a mistake.

So what I took from ToM (well some) is that:

1 - Moiraine will have info for Rand from finnland.
2 - Callandor's strange buffer is mentioned far too often not to be important.
3 - Matt/Perrin and their new found abilities with TAR/other places will be important. (Add that to the firefly vision and Moridin's eagerness to kill them.

Not really part of this thread, but hey its my first post:

The Perrin making his hammer scene was awesome. The black tower is one big trap for Rand. Dreamspike, guards, 13/13 turning, Caemlyn attack. I think this will be one of the 1st plots to be finished in AMoL. What puzzles me is the Seanchan.

Oh and I think Murandy is Demandred's lair. The good guys are going to be hit front and back. There was a mention of Murandy (Egwene?) sending a message and getting no reply.

tiredofbuttons 11-05-2010 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoialT (Post 121638)
No, I think it by far the most likely that the Gholam was sent to kill that man who reports indicated was very close to Rand, but also reclusive and who seemed to spend a lot of time ALONE with the Dragon Reborn. Who does this sound like? ASMODEAN. Sammael likely thought from reports that Asmodean was posing as Herid Fel (after all, Lanear was always reticent about sharing information with the other Forsaken so there is no reason to believe they would know that Jasin Natael (sp?) was Asmo).LoialT

Wow. Very nice!

Enheduanna 11-05-2010 06:14 PM

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul" I think might mean the "liquid power" that Nynaeve saw, forming a pool of the creators essence to repair the pattern at the point where it is most apparent.

Also, it might be that since Nynaeve uses a healing weave that uses all 5 elements, she might "heal" the pattern at that point. But the original seal, which was too weak, has to be cleared away first.

This theory is an interesting read, but it is way more complicated than it needs to be:)

ThatGuy 11-06-2010 04:38 AM

I don't have anything to add on the Rand/Moridin front, but as far as Herid Fel goes I think you're way off.

The major piece of evidence we have in the Fel plotline is that he was killed by the shadow:

Quote:

LOC Ep.

Sitting in his study, Herid was peering into his pipe and wondering whether he had the means of lighting it at hand when the gholam squeezed under the door. Of course, even if Fel had been paying attention, he would not have believed, and once the gholam was inside the room, few men would have stood any chance. When Idrien came to Fel's study later, she stared at what was piled none too neatly on the floor beside the table. It took her a moment to realize what it was, and when she did, she fainted before she could get a scream out. However many times she heard of someone torn limb from limb, she had never seen it before.
Let's assume that the Shadow have formed a plot to get the seals broken. Under what circumstances would they let Fel live? If Fel was a DF - remember, Fel pretty much came out of nowhere and continually goes off on unexplained absences - or if he actually (misguidedly) believed Rand should break the seals, then there's every reason the Shadow would want him to live. The only reason to kill him would be if he still believed the seals should remain intact. Now, if this was the case let's look at the Shadow's plan here.

They somehow coerce Fel into writing a note that is so obscure it took Min months to figure out what it was referring to. A few weeks later they then kill him. This was their cunning plan? They have no reason to think Rand has any wits about him, and in fact most Forsaken seem to speak fairly disparagingly of him. Why would they possibly think that a vague letter plus changing over a few books is going to result in anything? Not to mention, if they want the seals broken there are umpteen more efficient ways of getting it done. Why not make the letter a little clearer? Fel hasn't sent Rand a letter before, I doubt he's going to pick up on any stylistic inconsistencies. Better yet, why not have Fel request Rand bring in the seals? Or, use Fel to trap Rand and coerce the location of the seals out of him if it's that important. Maybe some of these would be hard to pull off, but surely you can appreciate that if the Shadow had managed to control Fel they could come up with a much better plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121227)

Fel's body, displayed as it was, was clearly a message to Rand. If Fel might reveal too much, then wouldn't it be better to kill him quietly? Someone wanted him to know that Fel was on to something...or to think that Fel was on to something.

There didn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary with the killing to me. The gholam ripped the body apart and probably drank some blood. It's probably difficult for it to carry additional loads when it's trying to squeeze under doors and the like, so leaving the body there somewhere stands to reason. Not to mention whoever ordered Fel killed might not have specified how or where he should be killed and the gholam has just taken some liberties.

I do agree though that maybe Rand has given undue weight to LTT and Herid's ramblings. Who is this Herid fellow anyway? When you look at it though, Rand's idea makes sense. The seals are breaking. They need to seal the DO's prison again. There are two options. They somehow seal the prison again over the top of the previous crumbling seal, or they get rid of the old seal and start from scratch. We already know the old seal was flawed, so it feels right to do away with it.

bwardj 11-08-2010 06:42 AM

Hi, I'm new here but wanted to pop in and mention something that I think lends credence to the thought that Rand would be doing the right thing in destroying the seals. That's the prophecy that the borderlanders recite to him. I don't know how to make the fancy quotes but it says the following:

"I see him before you! Him, the one who lives many lives, the one who gives deaths, the one who raises mountains. He will break what he must break, but first he stands here, before our king. ..." [pg 754]

It's obvious from that prophecy that he's going to break something that he has to break, and it's going to happen after that meeting with the borderlanders. Obviously there's no proving exactly what it's referring to, but I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that it's referring to the seals.

It's not a bad theory Terez, but I don't agree with it personally.

Terez 11-08-2010 07:11 AM

Yes, we all know that prophecy - Rand did point it out to us, after all. He's also supposed to break the world again, you know. ;)

manolin 11-08-2010 10:06 AM

The theory that Taim handed over the seal to Rand on the instructions of Moridin is flawed. What does it take to break a seal; dropping it would break some of them. If breaking a seal was all it took to release the DO in all his fury, isn't it better for Moridin to break it himself. Actually why aren't the Forsaken busying them with breaking the seals if thats all it takes to release the DO(they don't even seem to be actively finding out where they are); presumably breaking the seals doesn't require Rand to be there, even Nynaeve managed to break one.

I have a different take on what probably might be the significance of Rand's link with Moridin. The main significance of the link so far has been that Rand has been able to channel the TP, and is the only one other than Moridin and Graendal to be able to do it. If the bore cannot be sealed by saidar or saidin, because of the DO's abiility to taint them away. Then probably Rand may be able to use the TP to seal the bore? Or he may be able to turn the TP towards the DO through the bore. These are things which could not have been done in the AOL since LTT didn't have the ability to do so.

Xarra 11-08-2010 10:09 AM

Maybe the physical seals are linked to the power-held seals?

So breaking one breaks the other - a weakening power-seal breaks a physical-seal and visa versa?


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