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Servus Christi 11-08-2010 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolin (Post 124558)
I have a different take on what probably might be the significance of Rand's link with Moridin. The main significance of the link so far has been that Rand has been able to channel the TP, and is the only one other than Moridin and Graendal to be able to do it. If the bore cannot be sealed by saidar or saidin, because of the DO's abiility to taint them away. Then probably Rand may be able to use the TP to seal the bore? Or he may be able to turn the TP towards the DO through the bore. These are things which could not have been done in the AOL since LTT didn't have the ability to do so.

The True Power is not an objective thing like the One Power drawn from the True Source. It is the Dark One and it cannot be used against him not to mention Rand wouldn't touch it. The skies literally open up to herald Rand's presence.. what chance is there he would let something like the True Power soil him again?

Whatever Rand does to seal the Dark One away, you can bet neither the One Power or the True Power will be used in it. It's going to be a lot more spiritual in nature.

Enigma 11-08-2010 11:04 AM

Not to mention trying to channell the True Power at SG will fry you.

manolin 11-08-2010 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servus Christi (Post 124562)
The True Power is not an objective thing like the One Power drawn from the True Source. It is the Dark One and it cannot be used against him not to mention Rand wouldn't touch it. The skies literally open up to herald Rand's presence.. what chance is there he would let something like the True Power soil him again?

Whatever Rand does to seal the Dark One away, you can bet neither the One Power or the True Power will be used in it. It's going to be a lot more spiritual in nature.

Rand, in TOM, when he enters Far Madding mentions that the terangeal will only block the One Power but imputes that it will not block the True Power. So I don't think he has compuctions about using it if the use requires it. Sealing the bore is definitely a highest such use.

Is there any mention that the TP cannot be used against the Dark One. It is part of the DO's nature/essence, but that does not prevent TP being used against the DO. Somehow I find it easier to imagine the DO's power being turned back on him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma (Post 124578)
Not to mention trying to channell the True Power at SG will fry you.

IMHO the Forsaken who said this thing said that any kind of channeling near Shayol Ghul will fry you. If that is the case then how is Rand going to seal the bore because that (at least presumably) will use either the OP or TP. However I have to check that reference.

Servus Christi 11-08-2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolin (Post 124593)
Rand, in TOM, when he enters Far Madding mentions that the terangeal will only block the One Power but imputes that it will not block the True Power. So I don't think he has compuctions about using it if the use requires it. Sealing the bore is definitely a highest such use.

Yes, but he was discussing in the context of when he was you know, psychotic? He wouldn't use it now. He didn't need to use it. The Borderlander's were his.

Quote:

Is there any mention that the TP cannot be used against the Dark One. It is part of the DO's nature/essence, but that does not prevent TP being used against the DO. Somehow I find it easier to imagine the DO's power being turned back on him.
I can see where the appeal of using the Dark One's own strengths against him comes from, but I don't think the True Power could be used in this manner. I think it would be perfectly within the Dark One's power to cut everyone off from it for a start, so Rand, by whatever method, couldn't use it if he tried to aim ti against the Dark One. And there there's the fact that it's weaves could simply fall a part of the Dark One wished it.

And the Prison is not an object of any Power. So we know that it wont be this time around.

Davian93 11-08-2010 12:32 PM

Yeah, Rand was simply noting that a month ago, it wouldn't have mattered about the Guardian's presence as he could have simply wiped Far Madding off the map using the True Power. I doubt he'd do that now.

Enigma 11-08-2010 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by manolin (Post 124593)
IMHO the Forsaken who said this thing said that any kind of channeling near Shayol Ghul will fry you. If that is the case then how is Rand going to seal the bore because that (at least presumably) will use either the OP or TP. However I have to check that reference.

RJ touched on this in the long taped interview he gave in eastern Europe. Channeling at SG by the forsaken is bad without the DO's permission as he will assume that because you did not ask for his permission you are planning to do something he won't like so your loyalty quota drops and you get the axe in more ways that one.

That is not to say that if you are an enemy you have any thing to lose as the DO already thinks you are going to do something he won't like. A classic example is LTT and the compnaions at the Sealing. They were channeling.

I think RJ also confirmed that the forsaken was right that any use of the TP near SG will fry you.

Neilbert 11-08-2010 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 122215)
It's an old theory that there are two of them, but the main reason for the theory is that Fel was killed (in Cairhien) the day before Sammael said he was going to send his gholam after the Aes Sedai in Ebou Dar. I doubt it could travel that fast even by the Ways, though of course we didn't see it in Ebou Dar until six days after Fel was killed.

This was also before we learned that the Gholam has no problem going through gateways.

Landro 11-08-2010 02:31 PM

I think Birgitte mentioned that they only created 4 Gholam during the AoL as even the Forsaken were uncomfortable with them. We know one is about to die from starvation so that leaves 3 unaccounted for. It's doubtful that all 4 of them survived for 3000 years though.

metaphor 11-08-2010 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 121227)
..

well, it's likely that Ishamael/Moridin has been leading Rand toward his decision to break the seals, but that doesn't mean he would be wrong in breaking them.
Moridin used a game similar to chess as a metaphor to the struggle between the Light and the Shadow. In a chess game people try to anticipate the opponents moves and use them to their advantage. Something similar is happening in the WOT world.
The DO needs the seals to be broken so he can be free and reshape the world. BUt by breaking the seals Rand can make a new seal and close the DO away. But both can use the breaking of the Seals to their advantage. It's happened in the past too. For instance Rand's meeting with his father.It could have made him turn completely to the shadow, or made him regain control of himself.
Elayne did a similar thing in her bid to become queen of Cahirien. She gave other people the chance to gain the throne of both kingdoms. But first they'd have to reinforce her rule. Then she'll have to confront them, but in the meanwhile their interests coincide.

Of course, in the chess game between Light and Shadow there is a wild piece, that had not been predicted by the Shadow, but the Light side is apparently using, Fain, and he'll be the one to tip the scales on one side or the other.

Dalinoth 11-08-2010 07:13 PM

Lanfear/Cyndane and Rand's dreams...
 
Hi everyone. I am compeltely new to Theoryland and just wanted to say hello.

Terez - this was an extremely well thought out post. While I do not agree with everything you stated, I think the points about the continued link between Moridin and Rand have alot of merit. My question to you is regarding Cyndane/Lanfear appearing in Rand's dreams at the end of ToM. While I do not have the book reference at present, am I right in believing that Lanfear, at some point, told Rand that she could break the wards on his dreams (although he would not like it if she tried)? If that is the case, why wouldn't have Moridin utilized this ability beforehand as it certainly would have been another string to control Rand on behalf of the Dark One?

Terez 11-08-2010 07:26 PM

1. We don't know if she was telling the truth in the first place.

2. There might be some other things going on that we don't know about. For instance, Lanfear might have been able to get away with it when Rand was mostly ignorant, but it could also be unpleasant for the person trying to break in if the dreamer in question has a clue.

alleluia_cone 11-08-2010 07:50 PM

One possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is that the entire encounter was unintentional. That is, Moridin was in Lanfear's dream/mind and since Rand and him are blending together, he ended up there as well by accident. After all, this type of thing has happened before.

Tamyrlin 11-08-2010 08:01 PM

Yeah
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alleluia_cone (Post 124835)
One possibility that I haven't seen mentioned is that the entire encounter was unintentional. That is, Moridin was in Lanfear's dream/mind and since Rand and him are blending together, he ended up there as well by accident. After all, this type of thing has happened before.

That is the thought I'm going for if it was Lanfear's dream, as LTT now is involved, would their dreams have subconsciously been attracted to each other. And the Moridin merge, Rand to Lanfear accident is another possibility. As is the Lanfear on purpose and the Moridin making Lanfear and the Moridin making up Lanfear on purpose.

One clue we have has to do with Shaidar Haran telling Graendal someone else was giving a chance (or something.) Now, if that was Lanfear, it's possible that Moridin bought into an idea Lanfear had and that they are working together on this. Although, I don't think any of those options is more likely than another.

alleluia_cone 11-08-2010 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 124838)
That is the thought I'm going for if it was Lanfear's dream, as LTT now is involved, would their dreams have subconsciously been attracted to each other. And the Moridin merge, Rand to Lanfear accident is another possibility. As is the Lanfear on purpose and the Moridin making Lanfear and the Moridin making up Lanfear on purpose.

One clue we have has to do with Shaidar Haran telling Graendal someone else was giving a chance (or something.) Now, if that was Lanfear, it's possible that Moridin bought into an idea Lanfear had and that they are working together on this. Although, I don't think any of those options is more likely than another.

Any of those scenarios seem possible because of how little we know at this point. My speculation is centered around the idea that Rand's and Moridin's dreams are merging together. So that when Rand was just sitting there at the beginning of the dream, that was his dream, but when he went to that skull shaped place, he was in Moridin's dream. The fact that Rand could hear Lanfear is because there is no longer a divide between the two. I'll even go further and say that Rand and Moridin are literally becoming one, so when he saw Lanfear, Moridin was also looking at Lanfear, and the desire he felt was really Moridin but it was him also, because he is Mordin too.

Lanfear is the wild card in all this. The last time we were in her head, she was determined to kill Rand. But since then, we have to consider KoD, Chapter 3, during which, Moridin makes it clear that he doesn't want Lanfear anywhere near Rand. There are also continued indicators during this time of the probable abuse she is suffering at his hands. It honestly isn't out of the realm of possibility that Lanfear wants out at this point more so than she wants to kill Rand.

If this is indeed a trick, I'm more inclined to believe Terez' theory that the Lanfear in the dream isn't real; she's just a construct of Moridin's mind. But this seems odd as well because Rand recognized her because he literally saw her very beingness through her eyes . . . I don't think Moridin could imitate that.

Also, this kind of conflicts with the Moridin line to Graendal that someone else is handling Rand. I think Lanfear is too irrational to be given this assignment if, in fact, she still intends to kill him. I have a hard time believing Moridin would entrust her with this assignment even on the short leash she is on. I even doubt he would allow her to help him on it. If we could somehow confirm that Demandred is the other Forsaken dealing with Rand then I think that would answer everything.

nameless 11-08-2010 08:40 PM

Some thoughts:
1) Fel's message "belief and order give strength" seems to be referring to the way food didn't spoil as quickly in kingdoms with some degree of stability and spoiled almost immediately in kingdoms that had fallen into chaos. We know that spreading chaos is part of the Dark One's plan for this very reason. Chaos makes it easier for it to touch the world. If Fel's message were a fake it probably wouldn't have encouraged Rand to create order and stability.

2) Taim all but pissed himself when he thought Rand was going to break the seal. It's the only time we see him genuinely frightened. If manipulating Rand into breaking the seals is part of the master plan, no one bothered to tell Taim about it.

3) The seals are going to break on their own whether or not Rand speeds the process along. When they break there will be a confrontation between Rand and the Dark One. Rand's thought process is a) the prophecies are the key to victory but they won't necessarily come true all by themselves, b) in order for the prophecies to come true Rand must be standing on the rocks of Shayol Gul at the time of the confrontation, and therefore c) if the seals break at any time when he's not standing at Shayol Gul the confrontation will not go as predicted in the prophecies and the world will be pretty much screwed. By his logic it makes a great deal of sense to want to personally break the seals and control the time and place of the final battle.

4) Egwene's right to think there's a good possibility that breaking the seals will precipitate the end of the world. Her mistake is that she believes there's any possibility that keeping the seals intact will prevent the end of the world. Tarmon Gaidin is coming either way.

bwardj 11-08-2010 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 124520)
Yes, we all know that prophecy - Rand did point it out to us, after all. He's also supposed to break the world again, you know. ;)

I may be forgetting something, I'm certainly no expert on the series (and a relative newcomer). Can you point out to me where it's stated that Rand will actually break the world again? I always got the impression in my reading that people were afraid of the Dragon breaking the world again because that's what he had done before. I don't recall a dream, viewing, prophecy, foretelling, or what not saying that he will, in fact, break the world again. Is there some credible reason for thinking he will?

I didn't get the impression from Aviendha's glimpse of the future that the world had been broken. And why should it be? The original breaking was directly caused by the tainting of Saidin. I see no reason for there to be another breaking. What would cause it?

There may be plenty of things that Rand needs to and will break, but if not the world, what else would be important enough for the prophecy to speak of? I can't think of anything. Has something else that he will break been mentioned? It specifically references something he'll break after meeting with the borderlander monarchs.

At this point I believe that it is, in fact, the seals that the prophecy is referring to Rand breaking.

dfchang813 11-08-2010 11:59 PM

The prophecy state that he will break the world again but most interpret this to be more metaphorical than literally raising mountains and vaporizing seas etc.

It could be argued that as of the events of ToM, he has already broken the world . . .

The exact quote is in the prophecy that leads off The Great Hunt.

Dennis

jarno87 11-09-2010 03:45 AM

Why is breaking the seals bad.
 
This is the first time for me posting here, but there is something that I would like to bring in.

If I remember correctly in the AoL the following happens:
1. Boring a hole in the DO prison.
2. There was a big war between the Light and the Shadow for many years (decades).
3. LTT seals the DO and the forsaken.

So during a long time there was no seal what so ever on the DO's prison.
Somehow I get the impression that lots of people (including characters in the books) assume that breaking the seals is almost the end of Creation. I find that hard to believe as in the AoL there was a long time with a big hole in the DO's prison.

I hope you understand what I'm getting at. I don't know whether Rand really has to break them, or that there is an other way.

Terez 11-09-2010 03:53 AM

This was addressed in the opening post, which you apparently did not read.

Jonai 11-09-2010 05:59 AM

I swear, you guys are more entertaining that the actual books sometimes. If Terez isn't right, then at the very least there's enough information there to at least cast doubts on the relative wisdom of break the seals.

I wonder if we might be overestimating the actual good that the seals are actually doing. Four broken and the other three with the relative stopping power of swiss cheese. The Bore was blocked tenuously in LoC, so who knows how bad it is now. The Pattern is actively rupturing and of course we have SH. I question how much worse it can get and why breaking the last three would tear open the Bore completely, when the actual sealing didn't. That being said, I think we are operating on a few too many assumptions to say anything definite about the DO, his prison, or the Bore prior to the last book. Only thing we know for sure is that the bore exists everywhere at the same time, SG is only the place it can be sensed.

Few notes:

There were 6 gholam, 3 male 3 female. If a second exists it would have to come from a box, they decay over time.

Saying Lanfear drilled the Bore is simplistic at best. Lanfear assisting beidemon yada yada sharom yada.

I can see Lanfear being a key, and it doesn't even have to be a redemption. Ishy decides to let Lannie in on the little secret that there is no afterlife, and it's the countdown to extinction. What does she have to lose? She's already being tortured.

I don't know if I buy the whole Creator in flesh business. He was always the creator's champion, that's what it means to be the Dragon. I see it more as perhaps the full potential of being ta'veren, and absolute channeling capability. Maradon didn't really seem all that far fetched to me. The number of flows at once is problematic but it reminded me of the manor fight in KoD. Channeling for an hour straight, its very realistic that he could have killed so many. He killed an armor that outnumbered the Shienarans 10:1 in book one when he didn't now what he was doing. As to the LTT speculation about a pocket angreal, well of course he had one. The Ring of Tamyrlin. :)

The Bore was open for 110 years and the world didn't end, so I doubt it's going to be instant game over if Rand cracks three coasters against Eggy's forehead. I think what should scare people more that that is the ending prophecy where it looks like Rand's blood on SG is exactly what the bad guys want.


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