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Ishara 12-15-2010 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135641)
The pillars may also have been keyed to her, in the same way that they must have been keyed to Rand, when it gave him dual dragons rather than the single dragon given to Clan Chiefs.

I could definitely see the pillars being set to "reset" upon being touched by Aviendha as "one who has bonded the Dragon Reborn".

One is - we're assuming - genetic memory. The other is a ter'angreal completely picking up on her involvement with Rand from nothing. I can't see how that could possibly happen...

Weird Harold 12-15-2010 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
... most of the "it's someone from the past" theories depended on the more arcane and obscure concepts such as vacuoles, whereas Rhuidean itself had a mystery that can be fit neatly with the rest of it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
Anyway, the point is that, if Rhuidean did have a few Jenn Aiel hiding within it, they would probably not have experienced time at the same rate as those who spent only a short time in there, and there wouldn't have been many.

What other evidence for a temporal effect is there? It seems that passing through the ter'angreals can take several days and Mat apparently spent several days inside the redstone doorway, but those examples would seem to be an effect of the ter'angreal rather than Rhuidean itslef.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
Why were there no signs of habitation? Because Rhuidean was in a sort of pseudo-stasis. It, and the Jenn within it, would experience time at a rate far slower than the outside world.

And this is different than "Nakomi was stuck in a vacuole for a thousand years" how?

Even if your theoretical Jenn Aiel community experienced time at a rate of 1:100, there were decades of habitation by a community big enough to maintain a cultural identity. That leaves evidience of habitation, if only because they would disturb the dust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
The pillars also seemed to be able to identify Rand, and mark him differently from the rest.

What is different about Rand that a ter'angreal might identify to mark him the car'a'carn?

How might the ter'angreal identify that difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
Maybe it's not entirely impossible, that the ter'angreal was able to modify itself, having detected that its original purpose had ended.

Why would the ter'angreal wait for Aviendha to detect it's purpose being fulfilled? Maintaining the Aiel's history until it could proclaim the car'a'carn seems to have been it's purpose; that was fulfilled over a year ago (in story time) -- are you suggesting tht Aviendha is the only Wise One aprentice to be tested in that time?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
Mindtraps are capable of storing a person's soul. What if there's some similarity between that and the glass pillars? ... It seems plausible to me that they'd be able to use some of their own consciousness, some of their own soul, to empower a ter'angreal in a way that greatly enhances its power... with the result being the death of the ones creating it.

I'm sure they could have done something like that, but why would it be necessary for this particular ter'angreal?

The Glass Columns perform a fairly simple function; they identify a candidate's Aiel ancestry, tie that ancestry to key periods in the Aiel's history, and mark the surviving males with a Clan Chief's dragons. What about that purpose requires a soul to guide it or a human sacrifice to create it?

Whether the ter'angreal reads the pattern or the candidate's blood the KISS principle says it does so in the least complicated way possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135316)
But of course, all of that part is speculation at this point. The parts that I think may go beyond speculation and into the realm of an actual theory are the Jenn Nakomi part and the Rhuidean bubble part.

Of course to rise up to an "actual theory" requires evidence from the books or interview quotes. The books say the Jenn Aiel are extinct and are otherwise silent about any of your speculations. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135321)
I don't understand. We ought to have seen the explanation for the ter'angreal's workings in terms of the basic premise of the Wheel of Time -

This lies at the core of canon. The ability to read the pattern as it will be woven, with varying degrees of certainty has always been known as predicting the future.

Yes, the ability to read the pattern in both directions lies at the core of canon. However, it is NOT the only way to access the past or future that is part of canon.

Accessing the past is relatively simple -- almost too simple because those with the natural ability seem to have more trouble NOT seeing the past than seeing it.

Predictive talents on the other hand, are rare, difficult, and/or unreliable both in repeatability and in accuracy. The most controllable of the predictive abilities is Dreamwalking which shows only possibilites.

The Glass columns showed the past in a way that best fits with reading individual and specific blood ancestry rather than reading the Pattern.

Reading the Pattern to give a unique view of history would seem to require reading the candidate's thread to find multiple threads and tracing those threads through generations of multiple threads to identify the key periods of history. Seems a lot of comlication when the information is contained in that first read of the candidate if you read the blood memories instead of the thread.

There is absolutley no hard evidence to say which the ter'angreal reads, but the KISS principle would suggest that the easiest method would be used and all of the information required for the previous functioning of the ter'angreal is present within the candidate without need for reading the Pattern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135321)
So why would it seem like deus ex machina to apply the same explanation for the past, where both past and future are part of the pattern woven by the wheel. A ter'angreal that can show the past may also show the future using the same principles.

Reading the past from the candidate and only the information contained within the candidate is fairly simple; reading the future from information contained within the candidate is near impossible.

Reading the past from the Pattern is a bit more complicated than reading it from within the candidate and that kind of function could be turned around to read the future as well. The only question would be is why the more difficult method was chosen for the Glass Columns.

Why would the maker of the ter'angreal build a combination CAT, MRI, PET, tri-corder scanner when a simple automated blood test would serve the observed purpose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135321)
... That suggests the possibility that it read her in turn. This is reasonably the cause for the change to its settings, one somehow in tune with her own worries and feelings.

And perhaps it saw Aviendha's attempts to read it as a means for input. Even if someone else did touch it nothing might have happened because only a channeler with Aviendha's Talent could trigger the change.

That postulates a ter'angreal that is far more complicated and capable than it needs to be.

The Glass Columns ter'angreal if far larger than any of the wagons Rand saw in his trip through the ter'angreal; Unless it was disassembled and somehow all of the pieces arrived in Rhuidean together with instructions to assemble it, it was purpose built for the use it has been given. At the very least, it was reassembled and programmed by someone who knew its purpose and function.

That makes the glass columns nearly unique in the series -- a ter'angreal that is used for its intended function in the way it was intended to be used. It may be the last purpose built ter'angreal ever made.

If it was purpose built, it makes no sense that it would be built more capable than it needed to be. Perhaps it needed to be programmed to wait for Aviendha -- and only Aviendha -- to key a change in function, but hat seems unreasonably complicated whenthe change in function merely duplicates the function of a nearby ter'angreal the presumably maker had access to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135632)
Look, do we know if anyone else who has gone through the Pillars (just Rand that we have a PoV from) has touched them?

We do NOT have any references or hints of anyone specific who touched the ter'angreal...

However, it would require defiance of odds that would choke Mat's luck and Rand's ta'veren effect to believe that in the centuries of use it has never been touched by anyone. Similarly, it is highly probable that a Wise One candidate that had the Talent of reading residues was one of those who touched it.

That leaves the highly improbable conclusion that the ter'angreal was keyed to change modes by Aviendha's ter'angreal reading Talent and ONLY that talent -- because there is nothing else inherently discernable to distinguish her from any other Wise One Candidate.

Most of the speculation on how the Glass Columns ter'angreal functions are possible. I just don't think they are probable if they raise the question, "Why go to that much trouble?"

Weird Harold 12-15-2010 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135652)
One is - we're assuming - genetic memory. The other is a ter'angreal completely picking up on her involvement with Rand from nothing. I can't see how that could possibly happen...

If the ter'angreal is far more complicated than it needed to be -- eg Tracing individual ancestry through the Pattern -- her connection to Rand would be fairly easy to detect in either the past or the future.

If the ter'angreal does simply read the individual's blood connections, then tracing a connection to Rand is problematic if not impossible.

It boils down to, "Does the KISS principle apply to the last ter'angreal ever constructed?"

Ishara 12-15-2010 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
Whether the ter'angreal reads the pattern or the candidate's blood the KISS principle says it does so in the least complicated way possible.

That postulates a ter'angreal that is far more complicated and capable than it needs to be.

We do NOT have any references or hints of anyone specific who touched the ter'angreal...

However, it would require defiance of odds that would choke Mat's luck and Rand's ta'veren effect to believe that in the centuries of use it has never been touched by anyone. Similarly, it is highly probable that a Wise One candidate that had the Talent of reading residues was one of those who touched it.

That leaves the highly improbable conclusion that the ter'angreal was keyed to change modes by Aviendha's ter'angreal reading Talent and ONLY that talent -- because there is nothing else inherently discernable to distinguish her from any other Wise One Candidate.

Most of the speculation on how the Glass Columns ter'angreal functions are possible. I just don't think they are probable if they raise the question, "Why go to that much trouble?"

Exactly where I was going with that. It just seems unneccessarily complicated.

Glen 12-15-2010 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135652)
One is - we're assuming - genetic memory. The other is a ter'angreal completely picking up on her involvement with Rand from nothing. I can't see how that could possibly happen...

I didn't say involvement, I said bonding. As in, the warder bond that Aviendha holds.

The bond seems to do more than what the Aes Sedai and warders think. After all, all three of Rand's girls seem to emit the same "blocking the DO's touch" aura around them that Rand himself does.

In effect, it would be detecting Rand's "presence" through the bond.

As for "genetic memory", there's nothing genetically linking Rand with LTT, so I don't see how genetic memory helps the system to identify Rand as the Dragon Reborn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
What other evidence for a temporal effect is there? It seems that passing through the ter'angreals can take several days and Mat apparently spent several days inside the redstone doorway, but those examples would seem to be an effect of the ter'angreal rather than Rhuidean itslef.

What other evidence? Avendesora. Also note that the two key ter'angreal at Rhuidean both involved time.

Not to mention Mat. Here's something to consider - Mat, Moiraine, and Rand all entered the doorway in Tear, and return the same night. Mat entered the doorway in Rhuidean, and the next we saw was 7 days later. When the trio go into the Tower of Ghenjei to save Moiraine, they aren't in there all that long - a few days at most.

So if we assume that Mat wasn't in there far longer on that one trip than on any other trip by any character so far, we must conclude that Mat had been hanging longer than just a short time... but if time in Rhuidean is much slower, then he would be revivable fairly easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
And this is different than "Nakomi was stuck in a vacuole for a thousand years" how?

Even if your theoretical Jenn Aiel community experienced time at a rate of 1:100, there were decades of habitation by a community big enough to maintain a cultural identity. That leaves evidience of habitation, if only because they would disturb the dust.

The difference is the context. A vacuole requires a completely new feature to the story, and has many holes, such as "how do they know when to leave the vacuole?", whereas Rhuidean itself having time flow slowly doesn't have these holes (we know why Rhuidean's time flow returned to normal - the ter'angreal creating the effect was destroyed in the fight between Rand and Asmodean).

If time flows at a 1:100 rate, then it has only been, at absolute most, 30 years inside Rhuidean. If there's only a few people (why does there need to be a maintained "cultural identity"?), it would be trivial for them to remain well-hidden in the meantime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
What is different about Rand that a ter'angreal might identify to mark him the car'a'carn?

How might the ter'angreal identify that difference?

That's the big question, yes. We don't know the answer to that question. But that, in itself, means that we don't know everything about the ter'angreal.

If we simply assume that the ter'angreal has some way to tell who is passing through it, it's not inconceivable that another person is also set to be detected by it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
Why would the ter'angreal wait for Aviendha to detect it's purpose being fulfilled? Maintaining the Aiel's history until it could proclaim the car'a'carn seems to have been it's purpose; that was fulfilled over a year ago (in story time) -- are you suggesting tht Aviendha is the only Wise One aprentice to be tested in that time?

Aviendha herself observes that she's not aware of any non-Shaido to have "gone to Rhuidean" (the rituals of the ter'angreals, rather than simply going to the city itself), and that she would probably have known if one had been sent. And she figures that no Shaido would have gone, either. She directly speculates that nobody had made that trip through the pillars between Rand's revelations and her own trip through them.

So yes, I'm suggesting that Aviendha is the only Wise One apprentice to be tested in that time.

As for waiting for Aviendha, there are a lot of reasons for the pillars to do that - first of all, she would have been very confused if, as first one through the pillars after Rand, she saw something totally different from what Rand said was revealed. The system needed someone to experience both versions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
I'm sure they could have done something like that, but why would it be necessary for this particular ter'angreal?

The Glass Columns perform a fairly simple function; they identify a candidate's Aiel ancestry, tie that ancestry to key periods in the Aiel's history, and mark the surviving males with a Clan Chief's dragons. What about that purpose requires a soul to guide it or a human sacrifice to create it?

Whether the ter'angreal reads the pattern or the candidate's blood the KISS principle says it does so in the least complicated way possible.

The part that hasn't been explained, and which isn't really subject to KISS, is how the system is able to know important points in the ancestor timeline, for each person. After all, not every Aiel will have an ancestor who was at a specific event; therefore, it must be able to select appropriate events to maintain the display of what really happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
Of course to rise up to an "actual theory" requires evidence from the books or interview quotes. The books say the Jenn Aiel are extinct and are otherwise silent about any of your speculations. :D

Speculation is where an extensive list of suppositions are made specifically for the purpose of forming an idea, with no supporting evidence.

On the other hand, an actual theory brings in some form of evidence for each of the points in question. Those pieces of evidence do not have to be enough to prove things, just to provide some actual creedence.

The Jenn Aiel + Rhuidean Fog theory satisfies the requirements of being an actual theory. The points are:

1. Nakomi was a Jenn Aiel
2. Rhuidean's fog was created by a ter'angreal
3. That ter'angreal had an effect on the flow of time in Rhuidean
4. Nakomi had been living in Rhuidean under the fog, which is how she survived.

The first point is supported by Nakomi's behaviour, being behaviour that is familiar to Aviendha, but different. Nakomi comes across as particularly peaceful, she wears clothing similar to the Aiel, but distinct from them.

The second point is supported by the sequence of events leading to the lifting of the fog. Indeed, from The Shadow Rising (Chapter 58): "thick bolts of jagged lightning shot from the dome-clouds. Not at Asmodean. Just ahead of the Forsaken, gleaming pillars of red and white exploded and toppled across the street in rubble and clouds of dust."

Those gleaming pillars were probably what were maintaining the fog.

Point 3 is supported by the arguments noted above (Mat and Avendesora being the main ones).

Point 4 is then what ties the first three points together.

As I've pointed out, there are uncertainties in the sequence of events - for instance, the amount of coals seeming to change. But there are a number of questions that are currently unanswered, such as the timing of her meeting with Nakomi. Obvious possibilities include the impact of balefiring Graendal's palace, Rand's change (creating the bond-borne bubble of protection around the three women), and the instability of the pattern itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
Reading the past from the Pattern is a bit more complicated than reading it from within the candidate and that kind of function could be turned around to read the future as well. The only question would be is why the more difficult method was chosen for the Glass Columns.

Why would the maker of the ter'angreal build a combination CAT, MRI, PET, tri-corder scanner when a simple automated blood test would serve the observed purpose?

Because they intended it to serve more than one purpose? Perhaps the ter'angreal was made to do a lot more than what it has been used for - the Aes Sedai just set it to read the past because that's what they needed at the time. Also notice that Aviendha noticed how vast the ter'angreal was... this suggests that it's a whole lot more complex than you think.

Actually, need might be the key. The Aes Sedai set the columns up to the need that they had at the time - they needed to keep the Aiel aware of their own history, in order to ensure the safety of the world. When Aviendha went through, that particular need had evaporated... as such, when Aviendha made contact with a column, it detected that the need was different, and adjusted appropriately.

"Need" has been an ongoing theme to the story. It seems plausible that need is also one of the controlling functions of the system.


EDIT: By the way, the "new" purpose of the columns isn't duplicating the purpose of the other ter'angreal nearby. One shows the many possible futures for the person who passes through it, and only their immediate future (not those of their descendants), where the other shows one particular possible future, but shows it from the perspective of descendants.

Reading of the future can be accurate, remember. Min's Talent proves this.

Weird Harold 12-16-2010 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
I didn't say involvement, I said bonding. As in, the warder bond that Aviendha holds.

A fair point. It doesn't mesh with previous about the ter'angreal's function, but it could be transmitting Rand's ta'veren effect as easily as any other thing the ter'angreal might be detecting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
As for "genetic memory", there's nothing genetically linking Rand with LTT, so I don't see how genetic memory helps the system to identify Rand as the Dragon Reborn.

First, it is NOT "genetic memory," but Blood Memory -- a totally different concept that in this specifc case means that while genetics don't change with experience, blood memories do -- they are the expression of "inheritance of learned behavior." Rand experinces and memories in THIS incarnation are just as available as those of his ancestors.

Second, Rand is the only person ever sent into the columns that was not full-blooded Aiel. Keying on half-breed blood would suffice to identify Rand with 99+% certainty; the remaining less than one percent could be cross-checked against Channeling Ability and/or contact with Callandor -- both of which are contained within Rand's Blood Memories.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
What other evidence? Avendesora.

If legend is to be believed, Avendesora projects a calming, healing and preservative field under its shelter. I don't think the Tree of Life's survival can be used as evidence of some other temporal effect. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Not to mention Mat. ...

Mat and Rand spent roughly the same amount of time in their respective ter'angreal -- unless your positing that Rhuidean offered individualized temporal distortions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
The difference is the context. A vacuole requires a completely new feature to the story, ... we know why Rhuidean's time flow returned to normal - the ter'angreal creating the effect was destroyed ...

I still haven't seen any evidence that time in Rhuidean flowed any differently than outside. Time inside any of the ter'angreal flows differently, but subjective times in the ter'angreals that we've seen don't flow at the same rates -- Rand experienced much more subjective time than Mat did but the objective time in Rhuidean proper was roughly the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
If time flows at a 1:100 rate, then it has only been, at absolute most, 30 years inside Rhuidean.

Obviously that is not the ratio if there is a ratio. :D The Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai Rand met in his first vision were obviously older than 30. If they could retard time to that degreee, why did they need the ter'angreal to educate the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones? (other than stubborn Aiel disbelief.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
If there's only a few people (why does there need to be a maintained "cultural identity"?), it would be trivial for them to remain well-hidden in the meantime.

Aiel customs and dress have evolved over time. Even in Rand's first vision, the Jenn's clothing and mannerism had diverged from the Aiel's. There needs to be some maintenance of cultural identity in parallel with the Aiel culture's slow evolution for the Jenn to be recogniseably Aiel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
What is different about Rand that a ter'angreal might identify to mark him the car'a'carn?

How might the ter'angreal identify that difference?

That's the big question, yes. We don't know the answer to that question. But that, in itself, means that we don't know everything about the ter'angreal.

Both of those questions are answerable with the common understanding of the glass columns ter'angreal as reading Aiel Blood -- as are other questions about how that ter'angreal works.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
If we simply assume that the ter'angreal has some way to tell who is passing through it, it's not inconceivable that another person is also set to be detected by it.

This is Theoryland -- we need to know who, what, when, why, how about any additional functions and what foreshdowing or prophecy did we miss that predicted another target. :D:D:D


Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Aviendha herself observes that she's not aware of any non-Shaido to have "gone to Rhuidean" ... She directly speculates that nobody had made that trip through the pillars between Rand's revelations and her own trip through them.

So yes, I'm suggesting that Aviendha is the only Wise One apprentice to be tested in that time.

Therein lies the problem of not having access to a re-read or search capability. :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
As for waiting for Aviendha, there are a lot of reasons for the pillars to do that - first of all, she would have been very confused if, as first one through the pillars after Rand, she saw something totally different from what Rand said was revealed. The system needed someone to experience both versions.

A fair point -- if the second experience is not unique to Aviendha and isn't a post-hypnotic suggestion. :D

One of my premises is that there is no reason that the Ter'angreal needed to show anything different after Rand's revelations. Sufficient Aiel doubt Rand's story that the knowledge could easiliy be suppressed again if the ter'angreal isn't used to select and mark clan chiefs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
The part that hasn't been explained, and which isn't really subject to KISS, is how the system is able to know important points in the ancestor timeline, for each person.

That's why the Blood Memory is the KISS solution. It only has to go back x generations to the ancestors alive at the time of the key points in Aiel history and choose the one that learned of the change first.

Untangling the pattern could do the same thing, but would require access to the candidate and the pattern at minimum to make the experience individulaized.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
After all, not every Aiel will have an ancestor who was at a specific event; therefore, it must be able to select appropriate events to maintain the display of what really happened.

Not every Aiel candidate survives the Glass Columns -- perhaps they don't have any ancestors who directly experienced the key points in Aiel history or don't have the blood of clan cheifs/Wise Ones in their veins. If you kill off those who don't experience the right visions, you neatly solve the problm of people who don't have the right ancestors. :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
1. Nakomi was a Jenn Aiel

The Jenn Aiel are extinct -- canon says so.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
2. Rhuidean's fog was created by a ter'angreal

Well Duh!! with what we now know, probably a variant of a Dreamspike that porduce a cloud dome instead of a purple dome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
3. That ter'angreal had an effect on the flow of time in Rhuidean

Possible but unlikely, since no temporal distortions not attributeable to specifc ter'angreal have been noted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
4. Nakomi had been living in Rhuidean under the fog, which is how she survived.

The Jenn Aiel are extinct -- Canon says so.

Additionally, no evidence of habitation or even visitation was found anywhere in Rhuidean after the clans moved back into the city.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
The first point is supported by Nakomi's behaviour,

Nakomi's behavior supports all of the Faces of Nakomi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
The second point is supported by the sequence of events leading to the lifting of the fog. Indeed, from The Shadow Rising..

The fog was lifted roughly one year ago. Where has Jenn Nakomi been hiding?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Point 3 is supported by the arguments noted above (Mat and Avendesora being the main ones).

Refuted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Point 4 is then what ties the first three points together.

How and whee did Nakomi live for the last year without being detected and identified as a long-lost -- mostly mythical by now -- Jenn Aiel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
As I've pointed out, there are uncertainties in the sequence of events - for instance, the amount of coals seeming to change. But there are a number of questions that are currently unanswered, such as the timing of her meeting with Nakomi.

Uncertainties that Svengali Nakomi addresses -- Aviendha's POV fading in and out of a trance state without an omnisicent narrator to explan what was going on.

The timing of her meeting is somewhat independent of outside events. The only outside event that would/did have a direct effect (Rand's Epiphany) was at least a week, possibly three weeks after her meeting with Nakomi and her second pass through the ter'angreal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Obvious possibilities include the impact of balefiring Graendal's palace, Rand's change (creating the bond-borne bubble of protection around the three women), and the instability of the pattern itself.

Are you suggesting Nakomi's vanishing act is because of her being Balefired at Natrim's Barrow? That's hardly consistent with Jenn Nakomi, is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Because they intended it to serve more than one purpose? Perhaps the ter'angreal was made to do a lot more than what it has been used for - the Aes Sedai just set it to read the past because that's what they needed at the time.

As far as there is any evidence, the ter'angreal seems to have been purpose built solely to test and mark the Aiel leaders. Up to the point that Aviendha touched it, there was no indication or foreshadowing that it might be turned to some other purpose.

The "forest of crystal spires" as RJ called it was far too big to be transported from Paraan Disen with the smaller *angreal. When the various factions split off or bandits stole wagons, the heaviest items were the first lost. A ter'angreal that would take multiple wagons even disassembled would be extremely unlikely to survive.

If it was purpose built to serve more than one purpose thenthere should have been some prophecy, foreshadowing, or other evidence in the books or interviews somewhere -- IIRC, there's not even a RAFO about the Glass Columns to hint at some further designed function.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Also notice that Aviendha noticed how vast the ter'angreal was... this suggests that it's a whole lot more complex than you think.

The minimum complexity that I think that ter'angreal has is understated by merely "vast" -- I just think any other mode of operation would be even more complex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Actually, need might be the key. ...

Reasonable. Not particularly consistent with the other uses of NEED we've seen and without any of the candidates exhibiting any particular NEED to guide the ter'angreal's function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
EDIT: By the way, the "new" purpose of the columns isn't duplicating the purpose of the other ter'angreal nearby. ...

It IS duplicating the general function of the rings. It seems to me that it would be easier to change the settings of a ter'angreal that is already configured to read the future instead of reversing the function of a ter'angreal that is arguably still needed to mark Aiel leaders, if not to educate them. The rings seem to be Dreaming Related and Dreaming isn't limited to blood relationships to show a future; they could show blood relationships as well as adoptive relationships -- much more versatile than reversing ater'angreal that reads ancestry to predict legacy


Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Reading of the future can be accurate, remember. Min's Talent proves this.

Lots of things prove that absolute Foretelling is possible -- like Foretelling, for example. That says nothing about the abilities of a ter'angreal that previously had only read the past -- which is inherently more absolute than the future. :D

Glen 12-16-2010 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
First, it is NOT "genetic memory," but Blood Memory -- a totally different concept that in this specifc case means that while genetics don't change with experience, blood memories do -- they are the expression of "inheritance of learned behavior." Rand experinces and memories in THIS incarnation are just as available as those of his ancestors.

Second, Rand is the only person ever sent into the columns that was not full-blooded Aiel. Keying on half-breed blood would suffice to identify Rand with 99+% certainty; the remaining less than one percent could be cross-checked against Channeling Ability and/or contact with Callandor -- both of which are contained within Rand's Blood Memories.

Regarding the "genetic memory" part, the discussion was on how it could identify Aviendha, and by connection, how it could identify Rand. And it was Ishara's term, not mine.

Meanwhile, while it is possible that it was set to detect Callandor, channelling, or non-Aiel blood, I find it difficult to believe that, in 3000 years, the Aiel never had sex with non-Aiel, or that it would have any way to recognise Callandor itself - at best, it knew what Callandor looked like. For channelling, I don't see why there wouldn't have been a few Clan Chiefs that register as being able to channel.

I find it more believable that it was set to detect something more... certain. In the end, though, it could be anything - it could even be the heron branding on his palms. But the point to all this is that, if it was able to identify Rand, then it would be trivial for it to then identify Aviendha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
If legend is to be believed, Avendesora projects a calming, healing and preservative field under its shelter. I don't think the Tree of Life's survival can be used as evidence of some other temporal effect. :D

If my understanding of refrigerators is accurate, refrigerators reduce the temperature of objects within them from room temperature to a particular number. Do I therefore conclude that the refrigerator itself becomes colder? Ever feel the back of a refrigerator?

The Tree of Life projects a preservative field under its shelter... but what preserves the Tree of Life itself? In the AoL, Chora trees would have been tended by Nym, Ogier, and/or Da'shain Aiel, and possibly even Aes Sedai, and they would have had plentiful access to water, sunlight, and nutrients. In Rhuidean, it would have had none of these once the fog was introduced. And yet, it seemed to be no worse for wear after something like 2500 years?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Mat and Rand spent roughly the same amount of time in their respective ter'angreal -- unless your positing that Rhuidean offered individualized temporal distortions.

I chose Mat because we have reference points for his time - he has visited the Eelfinn twice now, and he has also visited the Aelfinn. We also have two other characters that have visited the Aelfinn.

On the other hand, the only other trip through the columns that we've seen was Aviendha's, and while it does refer to "days", it doesn't give us any sense of how many - it took Rand seven days, but it might have been two for Aviendha, or even less than that. We have no solid reference point for Rand.

Besides, the point was to say that Mat wouldn't have spent almost 7 real days while in Finnland, based on other experiences, and thus the remaining time (let's say 4 days) needs explaining. Whether Rand experienced any time effects is irrelevant to that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
I still haven't seen any evidence that time in Rhuidean flowed any differently than outside. Time inside any of the ter'angreal flows differently, but subjective times in the ter'angreals that we've seen don't flow at the same rates -- Rand experienced much more subjective time than Mat did but the objective time in Rhuidean proper was roughly the same.

The argument wasn't about comparing Rand and Mat. It was about comparing Mat-with-Eelfinn-by-doorway with People-with-Aelfinn-by-doorway and Matt-with-Finns-by-Tower. All evidence for Mat's trip suggests that it should only have taken a few days at most. While Mat might be lucky, I find it hard to believe that the time Mat spent in Finnland just happened to be almost identical to the time Rand spent in the columns, when all other instances involved significantly shorter times.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Obviously that is not the ratio if there is a ratio. :D The Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai Rand met in his first vision were obviously older than 30. If they could retard time to that degreee, why did they need the ter'angreal to educate the Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones? (other than stubborn Aiel disbelief.)

You gave the ratio, I went with it for speculation's sake. I find it more believable that, essentially, the fog ter-angreal had a kind of amplified version of the Chora Tree preservation effect. Essentially, creating a kind of pseudo-stasis by preserving everything. So it's not that time is simply slowed, it is more like the pattern's weaving is gradually slowed down for any thread passing into it. Once it had taken effect, any living Jenn would basically experience time much more slowly, to the point that it could very well have seemed like only months since the ter'angreal was activated.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Aiel customs and dress have evolved over time. Even in Rand's first vision, the Jenn's clothing and mannerism had diverged from the Aiel's. There needs to be some maintenance of cultural identity in parallel with the Aiel culture's slow evolution for the Jenn to be recogniseably Aiel.

If I'm not mistaken, Aviendha notices that Nakomi's dress isn't quite the norm. Besides, after a year, it would be easy to learn the cultural identity.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Both of those questions are answerable with the common understanding of the glass columns ter'angreal as reading Aiel Blood -- as are other questions about how that ter'angreal works.

Right, but that's still speculation. We don't know how the ter'angreal works, it is just consistent with a Blood-memory explanation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
One of my premises is that there is no reason that the Ter'angreal needed to show anything different after Rand's revelations. Sufficient Aiel doubt Rand's story that the knowledge could easiliy be suppressed again if the ter'angreal isn't used to select and mark clan chiefs.

If the Aiel go the way they look like they might, then there may no longer be need for more clan chiefs. But more importantly, what would make it so special, passing through the columns when you want to be a clan chief, if it's common knowledge being presented? As Aviendha pointed out, nothing surprised her. The point of the ter'angreal is lost, so why use it to select clan chiefs?

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
The Jenn Aiel are extinct -- canon says so.

Canon also said that you can't heal stilling/gentling, and that you can't heal madness using the One Power. Nynaeve has done both. And those were understandings of the actual concepts, whereas we're just talking about popular belief based on the fact that the Jenn haven't been seen.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Well Duh!! with what we now know, probably a variant of a Dreamspike that porduce a cloud dome instead of a purple dome.

Except in the real world, and yet totally blocking entry in T'A'R and not in any way stopping anyone in the real world?

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Nakomi's behavior supports all of the Faces of Nakomi.

Which is why I didn't base it solely on her behaviour. It's the "similar, but different" that stands out to me. A Forsaken would have used a mask of mirrors to copy appearance more exactly.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
The fog was lifted roughly one year ago. Where has Jenn Nakomi been hiding?

Learning about changes to the world? They need to get up to speed, after all.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
How and whee did Nakomi live for the last year without being detected and identified as a long-lost -- mostly mythical by now -- Jenn Aiel.

It's not like the Jenn Aiel look any different from other Aiel in terms of genetic features. They could easily blend in. But they needed to speak with leaders, and all the significant leaders had gone with Rand. Aviendha is the first of the Wise One apprentices to go to Rhuidean after that. Assuming that Nakomi would have needed a few weeks, at least, to get her bearings, it shouldn't surprise anyone that it took this long for us to see a Jenn.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Uncertainties that Svengali Nakomi addresses -- Aviendha's POV fading in and out of a trance state without an omnisicent narrator to explan what was going on.

The timing of her meeting is somewhat independent of outside events. The only outside event that would/did have a direct effect (Rand's Epiphany) was at least a week, possibly three weeks after her meeting with Nakomi and her second pass through the ter'angreal.

The problem with "Svengali Nakomi", though, is purpose. The only argument I've seen put forward is "seeding some chaos"... how is this helpful when the issue is something that comes after the Last Battle?

Other than that, the only argument I can see is "She laid some compulsions on Aviendha"... but this doesn't explain why she said what she said, or why Nakomi would then mess with Aviendha's mind in terms of the columns.

As for timing, we have no reference except that Aviendha was a few days from Rhuidean when meeting Nakomi. No identifiable events have been placed to provide a reference.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135707)
Are you suggesting Nakomi's vanishing act is because of her being Balefired at Natrim's Barrow? That's hardly consistent with Jenn Nakomi, is it?

KISS. Sometimes someone disappearing is really just someone leaving.

I'm afraid I don't have time to respond to the rest right now.

Goldie 12-16-2010 07:38 AM

I know this is going off a bit. Where do the bodies go off the people that don't survive the glass columns?

GonzoTheGreat 12-16-2010 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldie (Post 135731)
I know this is going off a bit. Where do the bodies go off the people that don't survive the glass columns?

There's a giant stack of dead would-be-Aiel-clan-chiefs in the Blight, and not even Harriet knows about it.

Ishara 12-16-2010 08:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
I didn't say involvement, I said bonding. As in, the warder bond that Aviendha holds.

The bond seems to do more than what the Aes Sedai and warders think. After all, all three of Rand's girls seem to emit the same "blocking the DO's touch" aura around them that Rand himself does.

In effect, it would be detecting Rand's "presence" through the bond.

See, I just don't buy that - it, again, seems far more complicated than it needs to be. If the columns were "tuned" to Aviendha then that's all they would need to determine HER future (real or not). As her future involves Rand's children (which we know from Min, and she knows if only she could remember it), then the information is there to be gleaned without going into this unneccessarily complicated concept of it reading Bonds.

Not to mention, Wise Ones take first sisters, which is a Bond - so how would that work?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
As for "genetic memory", there's nothing genetically linking Rand with LTT, so I don't see how genetic memory helps the system to identify Rand as the Dragon Reborn.

Again, I'm not necessarily understanding why there needs to be anything linking Rand to to LTT for the columns to have worked their purpose. The columns recognized the car'a'carn, NOT the Dragon. The purpose of the columns may dovtail with the Karaethenon Prophecies, but you have to remember that the Jendai Prophecies say nothing about the "Dragon Reborn".


Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
If we simply assume that the ter'angreal has some way to tell who is passing through it, it's not inconceivable that another person is also set to be detected by it.

It may not be inconceivable, but that doesn't make it probable. That's like saying if a quadraplegic can see you, then they must be able to touch you. You're ascribing characteristics to this ter'angreal that you'd like it to have, not that it likely has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
As for waiting for Aviendha, there are a lot of reasons for the pillars to do that - first of all, she would have been very confused if, as first one through the pillars after Rand, she saw something totally different from what Rand said was revealed. The system needed someone to experience both versions.

But she has never been told, or have reason to know of, Rand's trip through the columns. he's never discussed his trip with anyone. Also, I have to admit that my reading of that chapter told me that Aviendha was deeply confused and conflicted - not at all certain of what she needed. That doesn't fit with your theory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135698)
Because they intended it to serve more than one purpose? Perhaps the ter'angreal was made to do a lot more than what it has been used for - the Aes Sedai just set it to read the past because that's what they needed at the time. Also notice that Aviendha noticed how vast the ter'angreal was... this suggests that it's a whole lot more complex than you think.

No, that just suggests it's bigger than you may think. ;)

Look, I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you - I'm not. I just feel as if it's not as complicated as you are making it out to be.

Glen 12-16-2010 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135741)
See, I just don't buy that - it, again, seems far more complicated than it needs to be. If the columns were "tuned" to Aviendha then that's all they would need to determine HER future (real or not). As her future involves Rand's children (which we know from Min, and she knows if only she could remember it), then the information is there to be gleaned without going into this unneccessarily complicated concept of it reading Bonds.

Not to mention, Wise Ones take first sisters, which is a Bond - so how would that work?

Actually, you may have just identified something that just about everybody has overlooked. It's not so much that it's Aviendha's children, but that it's Rand's children. Perhaps the columns have always been keyed to Rand, intended for Rand to pass through them a second time in order to see the future of the Aiel, but Aviendha unwittingly triggered it through her bond with Rand.

Anyway, the point is, it's not so much that Aviendha is bonded that is relevant, but that she's bonded to Rand. I'm not suggesting that it's reading bonds in general, but bonds to Rand in particular. If the bond can carry the bubble-of-protection, why can't it also carry whatever the ter'angreal is set to detect?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135741)
Again, I'm not necessarily understanding why there needs to be anything linking Rand to to LTT for the columns to have worked their purpose. The columns recognized the car'a'carn, NOT the Dragon. The purpose of the columns may dovtail with the Karaethenon Prophecies, but you have to remember that the Jendai Prophecies say nothing about the "Dragon Reborn".

I use LTT on the assumption that the car'a'carn was always going to be the Dragon Reborn. But let's do it your way, and assume that they're incidental. In this case, the question becomes what distinguished Rand from other Clan Chiefs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135741)
It may not be inconceivable, but that doesn't make it probable. That's like saying if a quadraplegic can see you, then they must be able to touch you. You're ascribing characteristics to this ter'angreal that you'd like it to have, not that it likely has.

... that has to be the strangest analogy I've read in quite a while.

This has nothing to do with me ascribing characteristics that I'd like it to have, it's me ascribing characteristics that are consistent with what we've seen. The alternative, as some have done, is to speculate that what we've seen is in some way inaccurate - what we've seen is Aviendha go through the ter'angreal a second time after triggering a change in behaviour. The "Svengali Nakomi" theory posits that what we saw was false, that in fact someone is screwing with Aviendha's mind.

I'd much prefer to apply the Duck Test to this situation: if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135741)
But she has never been told, or have reason to know of, Rand's trip through the columns. he's never discussed his trip with anyone. Also, I have to admit that my reading of that chapter told me that Aviendha was deeply confused and conflicted - not at all certain of what she needed. That doesn't fit with your theory.

Wait... WHAT?

Rand tells pretty much the entire Aiel society about it at the Al'Cair Dal in The Shadow Rising. It's not that she needed to know every part of the sequence, it's that she needed to know the gist. Rand revealed the gist of what was seen. Aviendha needed to see it for herself, before seeing something different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135741)
No, that just suggests it's bigger than you may think. ;)

Look, I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you - I'm not. I just feel as if it's not as complicated as you are making it out to be.

See, that's the thing - I think my explanation is less complicated. I guess I think that "ter'angreal now does similar thing, but starting in the future rather than the past" is a simpler explanation than "one of the forsaken is messing with Aviendha, just for the fun of it".

And don't worry, I don't feel like you're picking on me. This is a mature debate. A mature debate involves people trying to pick holes in each others' arguments. Nobody has attacked me, so I'm quite enjoying this.


I also like Goldie's question. It's definitely an interesting one, and the most interesting question of the set is this one: what happened to Muradin's body? Muradin is there when Rand is passing through the columns, but he's dying through tearing his own eyes out, etc. Roughly 16 days later, Rand returns to Rhuidean chasing Asmodean... is Muradin either still passing through the columns or dead with his body visible at this point? Or has he disappeared entirely?

This would, itself, lead to speculation, if his body disappeared. Do the columns dispose of dead bodies? Did someone else come in and remove it? Do they survive long enough to stagger to some other location? Is there any connection with the Fog?

It's fun to speculate.

Ishara 12-16-2010 11:45 AM

Okay - so I should start by saying that I equally dislike the Svengali Nokomi theory as well. Again, it's too Byzantine for me to accept right now.

I agree - in principle - that the columns have changed their function.

What I disagree with, is the degree to which you seem to think that they have changed, or alternatively, to what you think the change entails.

I feel that what we saw is what we get - Aviendha changed the internal mechanism of the ter'angreal by touching it. Whether it was because of what she was thinking, or because of her Talent, is irrelevant, I think. She changed it (as opposed to Nokomi), and saw what she saw.

The ter'angreal continues to be tuned to people, though its mechanism and provided a possible future for her only. What we can't say for sure is whether the future was meant to be accurate, or if it was meant to create the impetus in her to prevent the future she saw from coming to be - again, irrelevant.

I don't think that the columns can recognize Bonds, or relationships, or ties to anyone.

I also feel that the bits about the Fog, the Tree, Mat and anythng else are extrenuous.

For the record, I think evidence has shown us that the ter'angreal disposes of the those who do not "pass". They are not removed (as it begs the question, by whom?), and they do not lay there and rot in the sun. They are just...disposed of.

Weird Harold 12-16-2010 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135716)
If I'm not mistaken, Aviendha notices that Nakomi's dress isn't quite the norm. Besides, after a year, it would be easy to learn the cultural identity.

Who would they learn it from? How would they learn it without whoever they learned it from learning that the Jenn still live?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135716)
Right, but that's still speculation. We don't know how the ter'angreal works, it is just consistent with a Blood-memory explanation.

No, that's years of arguments, questions for RJ, and deductive reasoning that the Blood-memory answers more questions than any other explanation of the ter'angreal's function.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135716)
... But more importantly, what would make it so special, passing through the columns when you want to be a clan chief, if it's common knowledge being presented? ... The point of the ter'angreal is lost, so why use it to select clan chiefs?

The ter'angreal doesn't just show memories, it evaluates the candidate and marks succesful clan chiefs with a dragon on one arm. The knowledge of Aiel history may be common knowledge at the moment, but there is no guarantee that it will remain common knowledge. But it not the knowledge that makes a clan chief but the Dragon Tattoo.

IF the ter'angreal showed a true vision of the Aiel future, the knowledge of the Aiel's history is still important for the survival of the Aiel as Aiel. Aviendha's children in that vision had forgotten what makes Aiel worth being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135716)
Canon also said that you can't heal stilling/gentling, and that you can't heal madness using the One Power. Nynaeve has done both. ...

Both events that were heavily foreshadowed almost from the introduction of Nyneave into the story. Where is the Foreshadowing that the Jenn Aiel are not really extinct?

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Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135716)
It's not like the Jenn Aiel look any different from other Aiel in terms of genetic features.

Isolated populations -- even, or especially, those in time bubbles or stasis fields -- diverge in appearance and culture from populations that spread and "evolve." The appearance of the Jenn would not change, but the appearance of the other Aiel would.

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Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135716)
The problem with "Svengali Nakomi", though, is purpose.

Svengali Nakomi is not the only face of Nakomi that provides better answers than Jenn Nakomi with fewer counter-canon assumptions.
  • Nakomi as Wise One -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Verin -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Marty McFly -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Ancestor/Ghost -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Bubble of Good -- just silly. As a very subtle Bubble of Evil, maybe. :D
  • Nakomi as Lanfear or Other Forsaken -- Svengali Nakomi is a variation of this
  • Nakomi as Dark Wise One -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Rhuidean Aes Sedai from AoL -- about equal to Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Blood Vision -- better than Jenn Nakomi.

Of all the faces of Nakomi presented in the Tamyrlin's original post, there's only one or two that are less likely IMHO than Jenn Nakomi -- even as far out in left field as some of the "better" options are.

finn 12-17-2010 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135678)
Yes, the ability to read the pattern in both directions lies at the core of canon. However, it is NOT the only way to access the past or future that is part of canon.

Accessing the past is relatively simple -- almost too simple because those with the natural ability seem to have more trouble NOT seeing the past than seeing it.

Predictive talents on the other hand, are rare, difficult, and/or unreliable both in repeatability and in accuracy. The most controllable of the predictive abilities is Dreamwalking which shows only possibilites.

The Glass columns showed the past in a way that best fits with reading individual and specific blood ancestry rather than reading the Pattern.

Reading the Pattern to give a unique view of history would seem to require reading the candidate's thread to find multiple threads and tracing those threads through generations of multiple threads to identify the key periods of history. Seems a lot of comlication when the information is contained in that first read of the candidate if you read the blood memories instead of the thread.

There is absolutley no hard evidence to say which the ter'angreal reads, but the KISS principle would suggest that the easiest method would be used and all of the information required for the previous functioning of the ter'angreal is present within the candidate without need for reading the Pattern.

Reading the past from the candidate and only the information contained within the candidate is fairly simple; reading the future from information contained within the candidate is near impossible.

Reading the past from the Pattern is a bit more complicated than reading it from within the candidate and that kind of function could be turned around to read the future as well. The only question would be is why the more difficult method was chosen for the Glass Columns.

Why would the maker of the ter'angreal build a combination CAT, MRI, PET, tri-corder scanner when a simple automated blood test would serve the observed purpose?

Old Blood memories are a natural occurrence in some people with strong ancestral purity, one that is not related to the power. Ter'angreal on the other hand are constructs of the power. Reading the pattern can be done by those both with the power and without it. We've seen no ter'angreal that reads the old blood. There is literally no basis for one that does, every other ter'angreal that creates a live experience for the entrant, works on principles of dreaming or can read the pattern to some extent.

Complexity is a matter of perspective. I would argue that in the universe of the Wheel of Time, it is far simpler for a ter'angreal to read the pattern than blood memories. And that's not to say that the Old blood memories themselves don't work as a result of stress on one life-thread, which produces a momentary quirk in the Pattern and the threads it arises from. One doesn't quite remember what one thought or meant after the fact, so those memories may not be contained within the individual.

Weird Harold 12-17-2010 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135827)
Old Blood memories are a natural occurrence in some people with strong ancestral purity, one that is not related to the power.

Not quite. Old Blood Memories are only noticeable/accessible in rare individuals or under extreme stress. They are PRESENT in everyone as a part of Blood Inheritance in the WOT instead of Genes/DNA Inheritance.

Aviendha notes that one of her children has dark hair because of "wetlander blood showing through"* -- that's not a turn of phrase in the WOT, it is how inheritance works and part of the concept is the inheritance of accumulated knowledge and skills; aka "Ancestral Memories" or "Old Blood"


* I don't have access to a copy ot ToM so that may nor be the exact phrase, but the attribution was definitely "wetlander blood"

GonzoTheGreat 12-17-2010 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135828)
* I don't have access to a copy ot ToM so that may nor be the exact phrase, but the attribution was definitely "wetlander blood"

Close enough, sort of.
Quote:

Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 49, Court of the Sun
Padra bowed her head at the honor he showed her. She sat between Alarch and Janduin, her brothers. Though the four siblings were quadruplets, they looked very dissimilar. Alarch took more after their wetlander side, and had dark hair. Janduin was blond and tall. Beside him sat Marinna, their sister, small of build with a round face.


finn 12-17-2010 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135828)
Not quite. Old Blood Memories are only noticeable/accessible in rare individuals or under extreme stress. They are PRESENT in everyone as a part of Blood Inheritance in the WOT instead of Genes/DNA Inheritance.

Old Blood Memories only come out under great stress in individuals with a pure ancestral line.
It is stress and not the power that brings out those memories. They do not remain and are limited in scope, a word or phrase at most according to Birgitte. Mat's healing was the only exception to this and that was caused by extreme, life threatening stresses in a unique conflict between the power and the dagger, the memories only remained because Mat had holes in his to fill. There's no evidence that the glass columns ter'angreal does any of this, so the blood memories explanation is not the simpler alternative here.

GonzoTheGreat 12-17-2010 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135835)
Old Blood Memories only come out under great stress in individuals with a pure ancestral line.
It is stress and not the power that brings out those memories. They do not remain and are limited in scope, a word or phrase at most according to Birgitte. Mat's healing was the only exception to this and that was caused by extreme, life threatening stresses in a unique conflict between the power and the dagger, the memories only remained because Mat had holes in his to fill. There's no evidence that the glass columns ter'angreal does any of this, so the blood memories explanation is not the simpler alternative here.

Then again, an alternative hypothesis would be that Mat's memories came out as a result of massive use of the OP on him, specifically in a mind/memory related way.

That's sort of also what the columns do, only still more directed towards digging up such memories.

finn 12-17-2010 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 135839)
Then again, an alternative hypothesis would be that Mat's memories came out as a result of massive use of the OP on him, specifically in a mind/memory related way.

That's sort of also what the columns do, only still more directed towards digging up such memories.

Except the healing was specifically geared toward cleansing Mat of the dagger's taint, to break the bond between them with nothing left to spare for anything else. I doubt Siuan knew how to deal with mind/memory issues to have been the cause, they had trouble with that in the age of legends. To call it an accidental side-effect of bombarding someone with the power alone is a stretch. There was also the dagger but the stress created by the warring between the two fits with everything else we know about the Old Blood memories.

Glen 12-17-2010 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135755)
I don't think that the columns can recognize Bonds, or relationships, or ties to anyone.

I was just providing a variety of alternative explanations that don't involve it being a fake experience.

Personally, I think the simplest explanation is the best - Aviendha, in using her talent to try to read what the columns were meant to do, activated a trigger that altered the behaviour of the columns.

The Jenn and the AoL Aes Sedai were working to ensure the continuation of the Aiel. This is just the next stage of that process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 135755)
I also feel that the bits about the Fog, the Tree, Mat and anythng else are extrenuous.

To the issue of the columns and Aviendha's experience going through them, sure. But this thread is about Nakomi, and the fog, the tree, Mat, etc, may be relevant to her appearance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135781)
Who would they learn it from? How would they learn it without whoever they learned it from learning that the Jenn still live?

All they would need to do is observe. Aviendha noted her as being unusual, but not exceptionally so. It is not unthinkable that they have been spending time with the Aiel, staying quiet on who they actually were. Why would any of the other Aiel suspect that they were the Jenn? They would have remained in Rhuidean, which is a city of peace - the Aiel would not fight in Rhuidean, and thus the Jenn going about without weapons would not be remarked upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135781)
The ter'angreal doesn't just show memories, it evaluates the candidate and marks succesful clan chiefs with a dragon on one arm.

On this, I feel confident that you are wrong. From the first of Rand's visions through the columns, we see from Mandein's perspective, and clan chiefs already existed prior to the columns being activated. Why are the columns necessary to "select" Clan Chiefs, now that the test that the columns provide have no challenge to them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135781)
Both events that were heavily foreshadowed almost from the introduction of Nyneave into the story. Where is the Foreshadowing that the Jenn Aiel are not really extinct?

Depends on what you call foreshadowing. Nakomi may be the foreshadowing, herself. After all, if she is Jenn, then the reveal of this would be in the next book.

Beyond that, the fog could be called foreshadowing, not to mention the exact wording of the scene as seen from Mandein's perspective:

Quote:

"Our days dwindle," Mordaine said. "A day will come when the Jenn are no more, and only you will remain to remember the Aiel. You must remain, or all is for nothing, and lost."
This was before the fog, and based on the description of Rhuidean given in the same section, it was some time prior to the fog, since the city wasn't as built as it was in "modern" times. The point being, she doesn't say that soon the Jenn will be no more, or anything like that. The statement is remarkably vague, while giving the impression of being anything but. Sounds a lot like what 3rd age Aes Sedai generally do.

But let's look just a bit further on. Mandein asks why they made Rhuidean, why they've arranged the rule of Clan Chiefs and Wise Ones going to Rhuidean.

Quote:

"It is our purpose," Dermon replied calmly. "For long years we searched for this place, and now we prepare it, if not for the purpose we once thought. We do what we must, and keep faith."
What did they think, and what purpose did they eventually build it for? Based on the fact that it has yet to be covered by fog, it seems that the Jenn and Aes Sedai were not concerned with hiding the city. So why the fog?

My point in mentioning the healing of stilling and insanity was that even things considered impossible are being done. Why is it inconceivable that something that is widely believed in the universe of the series turns out to be false?

Foreshadowing is used when an author wants to create an air of expectation. But when the author wishes to surprise the reader, foreshadowing can subtract from that. I have pointed out hints that the Jenn may not be gone, but nothing that creates an expectation. Nakomi being Jenn would be a "surprise" in terms of the story, rather than something truly foreshadowed.

Note the distinction between surprise and deux ex machina - I'd expect the Jenn to have a real role to play, not just something introduced in order to have Nakomi meet Aviendha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135781)
Isolated populations -- even, or especially, those in time bubbles or stasis fields -- diverge in appearance and culture from populations that spread and "evolve." The appearance of the Jenn would not change, but the appearance of the other Aiel would.

Your argument would be solid, if it weren't for the same chapter that we see Mandein's perspective.

"Rand blinked in the flickering lights. He had been Mandein; he could still feel contempt for the Jenn fading into admiration. Were the Jenn Aiel, or were they not? They had looked the same, tall, with light-colored eyes in sun-darkened faces, dressed in the same clothes except for lacking veils. But there had not been a weapon among them save for simple belt knives, suitable for work. There was no such thing as an Aiel without weapons."

The Jenn look just like the rest of the Aiel, and Rand did not observe any distinct difference.

Nakomi is described as "wearing Aiel garb. Not cadin'sor or the garb of a Wise One, but normal clothing" - the same paragraph ends with "She was middle-aged, and she carried no weapons. She was still."

Dressed in the same clothes, with the only differences being lack of veils and lack of weapons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135781)
  • Nakomi as Wise One -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Verin -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Marty McFly -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Ancestor/Ghost -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Bubble of Good -- just silly. As a very subtle Bubble of Evil, maybe. :D
  • Nakomi as Lanfear or Other Forsaken -- Svengali Nakomi is a variation of this
  • Nakomi as Dark Wise One -- better than Jenn Nakomi
  • Rhuidean Aes Sedai from AoL -- about equal to Jenn Nakomi
  • Nakomi as Blood Vision -- better than Jenn Nakomi.

Of all the faces of Nakomi presented in the Tamyrlin's original post, there's only one or two that are less likely IMHO than Jenn Nakomi -- even as far out in left field as some of the "better" options are.

Opinion is useful. But not so much when discussing theories.


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