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Landro 12-17-2010 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 126550)
There's still the little problem of the fact that the Wise Ones can't invade and control someone's dreams, and that they won't pull anyone into Tel'aran'rhiod.

When Egwene asked about this they told her it was a thing of the shadow and they wouldn't teach it even if they knew how. They said flat-out it was evil and they wouldn't teach it but they only implied that they didn't know how.

The Aiel also have a saying: Do what you must and pay for it. This allows them to do "bad" things as long as they're willing to meat the toh they incur while doing it.

So this doesn't bar WOs from having pulled Avienda into T'A'R.

I also think Verin knows a lot more about T'A'R than we've seen in the books. She had the training ring for a long time as well as the Notes by Coreanin. She's also very curious and a Brown so I'm betting she practiced a lot more in T'A'R than she let on to Egwene.

Weird Harold 12-17-2010 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135835)
Old Blood Memories only come out under great stress in individuals with a pure ancestral line.

At what point, does an "ancestral line" become pure enough to start recording memories some distant descendant might need under some moment of great stress?

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135835)
It is stress and not the power that brings out those memories. They do not remain and are limited in scope, a word or phrase at most according to Birgitte.

The point here is that if any individual can experience the memories of their ancestors that were recorded in their blood, then the memories must be there in the first place.

There is far more to the idea of "Old Blood" and "Blood Memories" than just a few occurances of deja vu -- and the memories recorded aren't just language or vision, they include "muscle memory" for things a person has never done or practiced for yet come naturally to them -- "It's in his Blood."

Rand and Perrin exhibit the "muscle memory" aspect of "old blood" in their quick mastery of Sword and Axe. The Soul and the memories recorded thereon, can't train the muscles.

Inheritance by Blood, the theory underlying "Old Blood" in the WOT, was a failed attempt (in the real world,) to explain evolution -- creatures changed because ancestors learned something new and descedents inherited that knowledge as "instinctive behavior."

Weird Harold 12-17-2010 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135846)
I was just providing a variety of alternative explanations that don't involve it being a fake experience.

In another thread, Jana kindly quoted a passage in Aviendha's vision that I hadn't consciously remembered but explains the reason I distrust the validity of the future presented to Aviendha:

Quote:

"The Dragon's Peace-"
"What care do they have for the Dragon?" Hehyal asked. "They are invaders who forced him to bow to their Empress. She is considered above him. They will not keep promises they made to an inferior."
Rand Bowing before the Crystal Throne (or the Empress thereon) is apparently the key indicator of a "corrupted" version of the Karetheon Cycle -- at least according to the Seanchan.

That corruption is clearly presented as an Exclusive OR condition -- Either "He will bind the nine moons to him" or "he will bow before the Crystal Throne" (Which just happens to be a ter'angral that induces great Awe in anyone before it to the one upon it.) The The "pure copy" came to Seanchan With Hawkwing's son, Luthair.

... There is a lot more to the evidence that the "Bow before the Crystal Throne" version is a deliberate corruption of the KC to cause the Seanchan -- and especially Fortuona -- to resist the true version of the Kareteon Cycle.

Since, per RJ, "Prophecy always comes true" the Seanchan will NOT force Rand to bow before their Empress -- with or without the actual Crystal Throne -- the future Aviendha saw can only happen if the Shadow won(a lesser victory, obviously, because the DO was not free in that future.)

So:
  • Aviendha's visit by Nakomi was full of oddities consistent with Aviendha simply "zoning out" and not noticing the passage of time. What happened during those blank periods?
  • The Glass Columns shifts modes of operation in a way that is not consistent with what has been previously known or deduced about the way it functions.
  • Aviendha's second pass through the Glass Columns shows a (probably false) future that can only happen if the Shadow wins. This would seem to also be inconsistent with the ter'angreal's previous known and deduced function(s); in respect to both the common view of the ter'angral's function and the only viable alternative explanation of how it functions -- eg, blood memories or pattern reading.

Since all of those puzzles are presented in Aviendha's story-line, it would seem that they have something in common with each other (independent of the mere fact of Aviendha's presence.) IOW, there should be one, singular, "new thing" behind all three.

finn 12-18-2010 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135906)
At what point, does an "ancestral line" become pure enough to start recording memories some distant descendant might need under some moment of great stress?

The point here is that if any individual can experience the memories of their ancestors that were recorded in their blood, then the memories must be there in the first place.

My point was they don't come out except under great stress, not by any design of the power. Certainly not by use of a ter'angreal that has been shown to work another way, one similar to others of its type. But the fact that they only do so for those individuals very pure of line implies that the memories do get fragmented beyond recall.

Quote:

Inheritance by Blood, the theory underlying "Old Blood" in the WOT, was a failed attempt (in the real world,) to explain evolution
And inheritance by blood in the WoT is similarly used as a broad term to explain everything from genetic characteristics to strength in channeling, neither of which have anything to do with memory.

Bottom line is this. It's been established that the glass columns ter'angreal can read the future. There is a perfectly valid explanation for why it could do so. The fact that it doesn't meet with some prior assumptions about how it worked doesn't invalidate the new canon. Especially since the old assumptions aren't any simpler in practice.

Glen 12-18-2010 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135916)
Rand Bowing before the Crystal Throne (or the Empress thereon) is apparently the key indicator of a "corrupted" version of the Karetheon Cycle -- at least according to the Seanchan.

I've always had the feeling that the Seanchan "corrupted" version would come true anyway... just not in the way expected. I expect Rand to bow before the "Crystal Throne". Basically, a self-fulfilling prophecy that will end up not being entirely incompatible with the real prophecies.

Actually, do we even know that the Seanchan prophecies were actually influenced by Ishamael? What if those prophecies incorporated local prophecies in with those of "Randland", thus creating the modified set of prophecies. Brandon was asked about this, and his answer was RAFO. Meanwhile, one Seanchan prophecy has already come true - it told of what happened with Rand at the end of tGS.

Weird Harold 12-18-2010 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135924)
My point was they don't come out except under great stress, not by any design of the power. ... But the fact that they only do so for those individuals very pure of line implies that the memories do get fragmented beyond recall.

Stress is easy to induce -- with or witout using the OP. :rolleyes: Bringing out memories/fragments of past lives is much harder -- especially if there are no memories to bring out as you claim.

However, ...

Quote:

"No." The word came thin as a whisper, but strong enough to fill every ear. It came from the dark eyed Aes Sedai sitting in her carved chair with a blanket across her legs as if she felt cold under the broiling sun. "That one will come later," she said. "The stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn, and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back, and he will destroy you." -- Narisse Sedai in the Mandein POV of Rand's visit to the Glass Columns
The Aes Sedai who commanded the use of the ter'angreal identified him by his blood and who raised him. (She did NOT say that he would cause the fall of the Stone That Never Falls, and the ter'angreal would have no obvious connection to the stone to know when it fell)

a Key characteristic to identify the Dragon Reborn would be that Born of and raised by" Blood relationship:

Quote:

For years we searched, finding other clues, poring over the Prophecies. 'He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.' That was one; there were others. But there are many places where the old blood, descended from the Age of Legends, remains strong. -- Moiraine, tGH Ch 8

Aviendha gave them a level look, but continued as if they had not spoken. "Except that now the Wise Ones say he is to be found here, beyond the Dragonwall. 'Blood of our blood mixed with the old blood, raised by an ancient blood not ours.' -- tDR CH39
Since the Prophecies completed by Rand's passage through the Glass Columns identify him by blood, I should assume the ter'angreal didn't check his blood, Why?

Again from the tGH quote:
Quote:

But there are many places where the old blood, descended from the Age of Legends, remains strong. -- Moiraine, tGH Ch 8
a pure strain -- or as moiraine qualifies it "where the old blood runs strong" -- would not be any bar to the ter'angreal testing for or stimulating "Old Blood" because the lack of sufficient purety wouldn't be a problem for the Aiel or Two Rivers Folk where Old "Blood does run strong."


Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135924)
And inheritance by blood in the WoT is similarly used as a broad term to explain everything from genetic characteristics to strength in channeling, neither of which have anything to do with memory.

So if Old Blood has nothing to do with Memory, where did Mat's regression to some Manetherin battlefield during his Healing come from?

Everything a person is or can become in the WOT is governed by what is in their Blood and what is in their Soul and how the two interact. "Old Blood" is only a small fraction of that facet of the WOT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135924)
Bottom line is this. It's been established that the glass columns ter'angreal can read the future. There is a perfectly valid explanation for why it could do so.

It has? The future shown is one that we have every reason to believe is a false future. If the ter'angreal did read the future, it did a piss poor job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 135924)
The fact that it doesn't meet with some prior assumptions about how it worked doesn't invalidate the new canon. Especially since the old assumptions aren't any simpler in practice.

You don't see them as "simpler in practice" because you don't believe in Old Blood Memories (nor, apparently, any other consequence of inheritance by blood) -- despite a couple examples of them coming to the surface under stress; one of which you cite as proof that they only come out under stress.

Weird Harold 12-18-2010 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135926)
I've always had the feeling that the Seanchan "corrupted" version would come true anyway... just not in the way expected. I expect Rand to bow before the "Crystal Throne". Basically, a self-fulfilling prophecy that will end up not being entirely incompatible with the real prophecies.

That would be kind of a waste of a thousand years of foresight and plotting to cause Prophecy to fail, wouldn't it?

You're not alone in missing the whole point of corrupting a Prophecy. If the True Prophecy and the Corrupted Prophecy can co-exist there's no point in Prophecy at all -- and the entire story is built on a foundation of Infallible Prophecy (aka Predestination)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135926)
Actually, do we even know that the Seanchan prophecies were actually influenced by Ishamael? What if those prophecies incorporated local prophecies in with those of "Randland", thus creating the modified set of prophecies.

Ishamael is the prime suspect -- really the only viable suspect:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tPoD
Chapter 24
A Time for Iron
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycleprinted in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai’don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al’Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al’Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha’man – they had to be disposed of, certainly – waited until al’Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.

The corruption purportedly stems from a single "pure" copy of existing prophecies (nearly 2,000 years-old at that point) purportedly brought by Luthair himself.

Nobody except Ishamael could have known that in a thousand years, Luthair's descendants would be using a ter'angreal as a throne AND had a reason to try to get those descendants to derail a prophecy that would place the Empire under the Dragon Reborn.

Whether that is the true origin of the "Corruption" is debateable, but no evidence to the contrary has ever been found in the books or interviews.

[ETA]
As far back as tEotW there has been evidence of a plot by Ishamael running concurrent to the Corruption:

Quote:

"A thousand years later I sent the Trollocs ravening south, and for three centuries they savaged the world. Those blind fools in Tar Valon said I was beaten in the end, but the Second Covenant, the Covenant of the Ten Nations, was shattered beyond remaking, and who was left to oppose me then? I whispered in Artur Hawkwing's ear, and the length and breadth of the land Aes Sedai died. I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come. At his deathbed I was there when his councilors told him only Aes Sedai could save his life. I spoke, and he ordered his councilors to the stake. I spoke, and the High King's last words were to cry that Tar Valon must be destroyed.
[/ETA]

IF that is the True Origin of the Corruption, then it would appear to be in an Exclusive OR relationship with the Prophecy it altered or replaced -- IF one happenes, the other CANNOT happen. The obvious purpose of inserting a corrutpion is to force a "self-fullfilling prophecy" diametrically opposed to an actual Prophecy that will be fulfilled -- as per RJ.

Most probable candidate for a Prophecy it replaces is the "Binds the Nine Moons To Him" line mentioned by Moiriane -- although that line probably actually refers to Mat and neither Rand Nor Fortuona has to submit or defer to the other.

GonzoTheGreat 12-18-2010 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135930)
Most probable candidate for a Prophecy it replaces is the "Binds the Nine Moons To Him" line mentioned by Moiriane -- although that line probably actually refers to Mat and neither Rand Nor Fortuona has to submit or defer to the other.

How do you get that?
The "bind the Nine Moons to serve him" would seem quite straightforward in requiring Tuon to fetch his slippers while Moiraine (someone else who is bound to serve him) is pouring tea.

Weird Harold 12-18-2010 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 135931)
How do you get that?
The "bind the Nine Moons to serve him" would seem quite straightforward in requiring Tuon to fetch his slippers while Moiraine (someone else who is bound to serve him) is pouring tea.

Yes, but Mat is the one who has bound the daughter of the nine moons to him -- in bonds of matrimony; as wellas physcially binding her in a rug, binding her by her promise not to escape or seek rescue, and probably a half-dozen or more binding between Mat and Tuon I've missed.

"He" in the Karethon Cycle has been shown to sometimes refer to person or persons other than the Dragon Reborn -- and Mat in particular.

I'm less than certain that the the "Binds the Nine Moons..." line is the obverse of "bows before the Crystal Throne" than I was before that point became obvious.

If both versions of the KC can co-exist a thousand years of plotting and nurturing on the part of Ishamael is totally pointless. (Not to mention being a plot point so important it is foreshadowed in book one of what turned out to be at least 14 books. :D)

Glen 12-18-2010 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135932)
If both versions of the KC can co-exist a thousand years of plotting and nurturing on the part of Ishamael is totally pointless. (Not to mention being a plot point so important it is foreshadowed in book one of what turned out to be at least 14 books. :D)

But see, that's just it - you've assumed that the Seanchan version is corrupted intentionally. You've accidentally dismissed the possibility that it has absorbed local prophecies into it - local prophecies being those that were on Seanchan before Luthair and his people travelled to it.

Those prophecies likely would have mentioned the Crystal Throne. It's a corruption of the Karaethon Cycle, but only in the sense that the resulting set of prophecies are not the ones that were in the Karaethon Cycle.

Weird Harold 12-18-2010 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135938)
But see, that's just it - you've assumed that the Seanchan version is corrupted intentionally. You've accidentally dismissed the possibility that it has absorbed local prophecies into it - local prophecies being those that were on Seanchan before Luthair and his people travelled to it.

Intentionally? Possibly Not, but unlikely since Ishamael explicity says sending hawkwing's army created a "doom yet to come" so it is likely thatt he corruption was intentional.

Whether it was intentional or not, read the quote from tPoD again:

Quote:

Originally Posted by tPoD
Chapter 24
A Time for Iron
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai’don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al’Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al’Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha’man – they had to be disposed of, certainly – waited until al’Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.

The actual corruption did NOT come from Seanchan, it came with Luthair's "Pure Version." The KC on both sides of the Aryth were the same at least until Luthair's arrival and any true "corruption" came out of a NON SEANCHAN copy and eventually replaced all pre-Luthair Seanchan copies.

morat'corlm 12-18-2010 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135929)
Again from the tGH quote:
Quote:

But there are many places where the old blood, descended from the Age of Legends, remains strong. -- Moiraine, tGH Ch 8
a pure strain -- or as moiraine qualifies it "where the old blood runs strong" -- would not be any bar to the ter'angreal testing for or stimulating "Old Blood" because the lack of sufficient purety wouldn't be a problem for the Aiel or Two Rivers Folk where Old "Blood does run strong."

One wonders where all these people whose blood does not descend from the Age of Legends came from. But whatever the prophecy says, Rand's blood is far more 'dilute' than any Aiel's, or any of his neighbors in the Two Rivers for that matter. He has Tigraine's face and everything!

Glen 12-18-2010 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135942)
Intentionally? Possibly Not, but unlikely since Ishamael explicity says sending hawkwing's army created a "doom yet to come" so it is likely thatt he corruption was intentional.

Whether it was intentional or not, read the quote from tPoD again:



The actual corruption did NOT come from Seanchan, it came with Luthair's "Pure Version." The KC on both sides of the Aryth were the same at least until Luthair's arrival and any true "corruption" came out of a NON SEANCHAN copy and eventually replaced all pre-Luthair Seanchan copies.

I think you're misreading it slightly.

Pay close attention to it - he says that the ones already there in Seanchan prior to Luthair was "corrupted" compared with the the one they believe Luthair brought. But AFTER this it is observed that those of THIS land (Randland/westland, whatever you want to call it) didn't even have the parts about the Crystal Throne.

The wording of this implies that those that were in Seanchan prior to Luthair did mention the Crystal Throne prophecy.

Just an observation, but think about this - Ishamael sends Luthair to Seanchan, and then convinces him to use the Crystal Throne given by Ishamael to rule from. This associates, in the Seanchan perspective, that line from the prophecy with the Dragon Reborn serving the Empress or Emperor.

However, we've seen at least one other crystal throne, the red one in Rhuidean. Indeed, that "red crystal chair" was specifically noted in Rhuidean, for no particular reason, it seems.

To bring the discussion slightly back towards the topic of the thread, I'd like to point out that there's no mention of this crystal 'chair' amongst the ter'angreal that were taken to the Tower, suggesting that it's still in Rhuidean, along with the only person in the world that we know of that can identify the purpose of a ter'angreal without having to experiment with it.

I do wonder if Aviendha, early in aMoL, who has only just returned to Rhuidean after learning a while ago of her ability to "read" ter'angreal, will now start checking those ter'angreal remaining in Rhuidean to determine their purposes.

Indeed, this may be one reason for Aviendha's experience with the columns, and her meeting with Nakomi. It might be that Aviendha will identify the Red Crystal Chair as being another chair of leadership (to use my own term for it) like the Crystal Throne of Seanchan, and decides that she needs to lead the Aiel away from the disaster she has foreseen. Rand, needing to ensure that the Aiel follow her upon his death, bends knee to her in front of the clan chiefs and wise ones. This satisfies the Seanchan prophecy.

This may be the purpose to which the Jenn, Dermon, was speaking, and it may be why the Jenn had to ensure that Aviendha was given the impetus to take the necessary steps.

Weird Harold 12-18-2010 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morat'corlm (Post 135943)
One wonders where all these people whose blood does not descend from the Age of Legends came from. But whatever the prophecy says, Rand's blood is far more 'dilute' than any Aiel's, or any of his neighbors in the Two Rivers for that matter. He has Tigraine's face and everything!

They have "New Blood," of course. You know that injection that every family and every business needs occasional doses of to prevent in breeding and/or produce some new ideas.

The degree of "New Blood" or admixture of "Old Blood" with "Ancient Blood" gave Rand the exact proportion of Aiel Blood -- from the right ancestors, apparently -- to key the Second Dragon tattoo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135944)
The wording of this implies that those that were in Seanchan prior to Luthair did mention the Crystal Throne prophecy.

The Seanchan certainly act like the Crystal Throne Prophecy is still part of the Seanchan Version, but Luthair's copy is the "Pure Version" which is what all of the Seanchan versions have been "corrected" to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winter's Heart
Chapter 14
What A Veil Hides

Tuon nodded. She herself was not sure at all. That sort of sureness could lead to the Tower of the Ravens even for her. Perhaps especially for her. "I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.

It is interesting to note that Anath [Semirhage] immdiately before that paragraph urges Tuon to NOT let the Dragon Reborn know what a danger to him she, tuon, was.

It is also intersting to note that BG Miraj prior to his POV in tPoD [quoted above] apparently knew exactly where to look for "corruption" in a copy of the KC. If "corrupted copies" have been replaced with Luthair's "Pure copy." Who kept the information on how to identify corrupt copies in the seanchan knowledge base?

Could it be that Semirhage's assignment to Tuon was a continuation of the Shadow's attempt to pervert Prophecy by leading the Seanchan to try to force a False Prophecy?

finn 12-19-2010 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135929)
Stress is easy to induce -- with or witout using the OP. :rolleyes: Bringing out memories/fragments of past lives is much harder -- especially if there are no memories to bring out as you claim.

...

You don't see them as "simpler in practice" because you don't believe in Old Blood Memories (nor, apparently, any other consequence of inheritance by blood) -- despite a couple examples of them coming to the surface under stress; one of which you cite as proof that they only come out under stress.

I cite examples of stress as a trigger because it goes against your theory. Rand never underwent any significant stress in the ter'angreal.

The stress required to bring out the ancestral memory to the extent that it did in Mat that one time nearly killed him and left him terribly weakened. And it wasn't the power alone that induced it but the attempt to break a link with a very powerful evil. The usual life-threatening situation is only enough to bring out a few words or a couple of phrases at most and they slip out of recall and meaning moments after, without holes in permanent memory in which to make their place, again caused by that evil. Rand never experienced stress close to what Mat did and Mat had strongly manifested ancestral memory in comparison, it should have been easy with him. This is not a viable, effective or practical method and does not reflect the canon of Rand's experience.

Quote:

The Aes Sedai who commanded the use of the ter'angreal identified him by his blood and who raised him. (She did NOT say that he would cause the fall of the Stone That Never Falls, and the ter'angreal would have no obvious connection to the stone to know when it fell)

a Key characteristic to identify the Dragon Reborn would be that Born of and raised by" Blood relationship:

Since the Prophecies completed by Rand's passage through the Glass Columns identify him by blood, I should assume the ter'angreal didn't check his blood, Why?

Again from the tGH quote:

a pure strain -- or as moiraine qualifies it "where the old blood runs strong" -- would not be any bar to the ter'angreal testing for or stimulating "Old Blood" because the lack of sufficient purety wouldn't be a problem for the Aiel or Two Rivers Folk where Old "Blood does run strong."
Sorry, I just don't see this as the simpler "explanation". And tbh it seems quite a stretch.

Quote:

So if Old Blood has nothing to do with Memory, where did Mat's regression to some Manetherin battlefield during his Healing come from?
The "old blood" has everything to do with Mat's memory. Whether that means those memories literally reside in his veins or whether 'blood' as a term is a broad generalization that covers all aspects of heredity is a matter of small debate in my view.

Quote:

Everything a person is or can become in the WOT is governed by what is in their Blood and what is in their Soul and how the two interact. "Old Blood" is only a small fraction of that facet of the WOT.
I don't agree with the blood part, at least not in the literal sense. If that were true, the Forsaken whose souls were transmigrated to new bodies with other blood would show new abilities.

'Blood' as an expression, reflects its archaic use in real historical societies and is used in the Wheel of Time series to convey a limited understanding of heredity. That it covers everything else beyond memory is proof of that.

If you were to say, "Everything a person is or can become in the WOT is governed by what is in their ancestry and what is in their Soul and how the two interact" I'd kinda agree with that although you'd have to factor in their upbringing and other life experiences.

Quote:

It has? The future shown is one that we have every reason to believe is a false future. If the ter'angreal did read the future, it did a piss poor job.
A false future and a possible, alterable future are two entirely different things. The latter is perfectly in keeping with the principles of dreaming and reinforces the similarity of the ter'angreal with the others of its type used for testing entrants, the other one in Rhuidean and the two in the White Tower.

Weird Harold 12-19-2010 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 136028)
The stress required to bring out the ancestral memory to the extent that it did in Mat that one time nearly killed him and left him terribly weakened.

You are assuming that stress -- specifically "great stress" -- is the only possible manefestation of inherited memories.

You admit that the memories are something within Mat -- and by extension anyone inthe WOT with similar bloodlines -- but you refuse to admit that stimulating memories that are already present MUST be inherently less difficult than tracking down those same memories from an outside source and forcing them into the candidate so the candidate can experience them from a "first person present" POV.

It doesn't really matter if those ancestral memories are contained in blood, bone, liver, heart, kidney, or any other organ that has ever been labeled the controller of 'human nature.'

What matters is that those memories are already present within the candidate. Whether the Columns use any of the stimuli known to trigger memory in the real world -- scent, sound, texture, sight, hypnosis, etc -- the memories the candidates are within them (and anyone else of a strong Aiel bloodline.)

Anyone NOT of a strong Aiel Bloodline will see nothing --per RJ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 136028)
I don't agree with the blood part, at least not in the literal sense. If that were true, the Forsaken whose souls were transmigrated to new bodies with other blood would show new abilities.

According to Halima, "the body has its own imperatives" -- OWTTE; It will take a little searching because I don'trecall the exact wroding to search for.

ETA: Actually, it might be this bit from Shadar Haran, but I thought I recalled another from Aran'gar's POV.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoC Prologue
Shaidar Haran turned its attention back to the woman twitching in its fist. Her face was beginning to go purple, and her feet kicked feebly. "You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body. You are adapting already. Soon it will be as if you had never had any other. Or you may refuse. Then another will take your place, and you will be given to... my brothers, blocked as you are." Those thin lips twitched again. "They miss their sport in the Borderlands."

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 136028)
'Blood' as an expression, reflects its archaic use in real historical societies and is used in the Wheel of Time series to convey a limited understanding of heredity. That it covers everything else beyond memory is proof of that.

You admit that Mat and anyone else from a pure strain has ancestral memories known within the books as "Old Blood." Why are you so resistant to the idea that those memories are part of those "Archaic Usages" that RJ made literal truth in the WOT? Both parts of Rand's ancestry is "a pure strain" that even you admit has ancestral memories -- aka Old Blood Memories.

Every successful candidate for Clan Chief has lineal ancestry from some witness to Aiel History; they have every qualification you require to have the memories within them without need for the ter'angreal to access anything more than what is held within the candidate's "blood and bones" -- evenby YOUR strict standards for who has the necessary memories within them.

If you need to positively identify someone's ancestry, which is easier to access?

A Blood sample taken from the person

OR

Tracing birth and marriage and census records through some central database? (assuming of course the databse is absolutley accurate and unambiguous.)

However the ter'angreal functions, accessing information that is within the confines of the ter'angreal has to be easier than accessing the same information through channels outside the confines of the ter'angreal. That's true whether the ter'angreal is technology or magical.

lord Mordeth 12-19-2010 01:12 PM

I don't think there's enough content in the allusions to different versions of the Prophecies to support some of the deductions being made here.

We have three different versions mentioned thanks to Seanchan POVs; the local pre-Luthair one, the Essanik Cycle, and the westland Karaethon Cycle.

There is no indication that the pre-Essanik Seanchan prophecies were identical to the KC; this can only be conjecture as the POV holder knows no more of them than that they differed from the Essanik, not how.

As for the either/or nature of kneeling to the CT and binding the 9 moons, I don't see it. On the contrary, kneeling before the throne, it's becoming clear, is the only way Rand could bring the Seanchan into the last alliance he's trying to build. This is probably the meaning of 'serve' the KC refers to; not an oath of the kind he demanded, and almost got, of Tuon in TGS, but an exchange that makes the Seanchan participants in, rather than a threat to, the forces of the Light in the LB. If that takes him kneeling to Fortuona, it doesn't seem like Rand Sedai would have too much of a problem with it. After all, he let the Borderland rulers smack him repeatedly about the face...

Weird Harold 12-19-2010 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136085)
We have three different versions mentioned thanks to Seanchan POVs; the local pre-Luthair one, the Essanik Cycle, and the westland Karaethon Cycle.

Per Brandon, the Essanik Cycle is a purely Seanchan set of Prophecy that is separate from the Karetheon Cycle.

The accuracy of the pre-Luthair KC in Seanchan is not really relevant; what is relevant is that the Seanchan post-Luthair Seanchan version is different than the 'post-Luthair' Westland version -- and Seanchan scholars now how to quickly spot the differences. It can be deduced that the Seanchan copies of the pre-luthair KC were probably as accurate as the contemporary non-luthair versions in the Westlands; there's no reason to believe that there was some other differences in a set of Prophecies that had been around for about 2,000 years when Luthair's "pure copy" showed up.

It is the difference between Luthair's copy and everybody in Randland's copy of the KC today that is causing/going to cause propblems with the fulfillment of other Prophecies and recent Foretellings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136085)
As for the either/or nature of kneeling to the CT and binding the 9 moons, I don't see it.

That is a necessary consequence of the "corruption" being the "Doom yet to come" Ishamael claims to have caused by sending Hawkwings armies over the Aryth. (It is NOT the Seanchan per se, because accurate Prophecy and Aelfin answers anticpate and account for their presence in the various "Divide the Land" prophecies.)

IF that deduction is wrong -- and there has been ample (unsuccessful) debate over the years trying to disprove it -- then the necessary consequence is also wrong.

So, since for years, the accepted explanation for both Ishamael's "Doom Yet To Come" and the "Corrupt Prophecy" is that Ishamael is responsible for the corruption in Luthair's "Pure Copy" in an attempt to force a false Prophecy and block an alliance with the Seanchan, What alternative explanation for those two mysteries, which run concurrently, do you offer?

Glen 12-19-2010 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135945)
The Seanchan certainly act like the Crystal Throne Prophecy is still part of the Seanchan Version, but Luthair's copy is the "Pure Version" which is what all of the Seanchan versions have been "corrected" to.

Let's try this argument out for size.

1. Ishamael sees that the Seanchan version of the prophecies refers to the Dragon Reborn kneeling before the Crystal Throne.

2. Ishamael knows that the prophecy must be fulfilled, and thus sets about ensuring that it is fulfilled in the way most desirable to the Shadow.

3. Ishamael sets everything in motion to make Luthair go to Seanchan, and modifies the Westland version of the prophecies to contain the reference to the Crystal Throne, so that it is seen to be of particular importance.

4. Ishamael manipulates things so that the Seanchan emperor/empress is given a crystal throne and ensures that the position comes to be known as The Crystal Throne.

This provides a Shadow-desirable way to fulfill the prophecy. Without Ishamael's manipulations, there would be no risk involved, only one crystal throne would be available.

Note that the red crystal throne was in the possession of the Jenn Aiel, and one of the things that they did was make it so that one could not travel/skim to Rhuidean, nor access it via T'A'R. This effectively prevented Ishamael and the other forsaken from obtaining the crystal throne and therefore getting Rand to kneel before that forsaken.

In short, I'm postulating that the original purpose for the Aiel protecting all of those items of the One Power was to ensure the protection of that chair/throne.

lord Mordeth 12-20-2010 12:22 AM

Ishamael is a part of the Pattern, unlike his master, and Forsaken have inadvertently been responsible for the fulfillment of parts of the prophecies before. Even if he was responsible for the Essanik corruption, and I agree that's by far the best explanation, the manner in which he corrupted them does not entail an irreconcilable difference with the KC.

I'll repeat; Rand kneeling and his binding the nine moons do not mutually exclude each other, and it looks more and more likely (notably from Aviendha's visions) that they will both come to pass. So my point about the inaccuracy of calling kneeling and binding an either/or stands. Shadow-corrupted prophecies are not inherently inconsistent with those given by Lightfriends, and, more than that, the only known point of corruption, the Dragon kneeling, appears increasingly necessary for his success.

As for the 'Doom yet to come', this is both massively unspecific and requires trusting Ishamael's word for any credence to be given it. The 'Doom' could have been that of the Watchers on Toman Head, or of Whitecloak rule in Amadicia, or it could have been Ishamael talking himself up and trying to cause doubt in his enemies - or something else again. What it does not, any longer, appear to signify is the doom of the Dragon's hopes at the hands of the Seanchan.

All that said, the separate question of the new Dark prophecy does appear different. Although it's very cryptic, it does appear to be a foil to the Light prophecies, with reference such as the fall of the Broken Wolf seeming to go against what we know must happen for the Light to win. But again, this is an ontologically different set of texts from the Essanik Cycle, and they can't be equated in their relation to the KC.


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