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Weird Harold 12-20-2010 06:19 AM

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Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
Let's try this argument out for size.

Fits about like stereotypical GI issue "One-size-fits-none" :D

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Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
1. Ishamael sees that the Seanchan version of the prophecies refers to the Dragon Reborn kneeling before the Crystal Throne.

Where is there one single canon reference to the Crystal Throne being mentioned in any prophecy, anywhere, other than the "Pure copy brought by Luthair?"

Quote:

The Karaethon Cycle, also known as the Prophecies of the Dragon, has existed since the Breaking.

Tor Website Q&A - The Prophecies were the collected Foretellings that occurred before, during and after the War of Power.
There is no reason to assume that the Randland copies/translations survived intact but the pre-luthair Seanchan versions did not.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
2. Ishamael knows that the prophecy must be fulfilled, and thus sets about ensuring that it is fulfilled in the way most desirable to the Shadow.

Based on the false premise that there is a prophecy anywhere in any Prophecy -- aiel, jendai, essanik, Amayar, or any nationality or empire specific collections -- that mentions the Crystal Throne, and/or the Dragon Reborn bowing/kneeling before it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
3. Ishamael sets everything in motion to make Luthair go to Seanchan, and modifies the Westland version of the prophecies to contain the reference to the Crystal Throne, so that it is seen to be of particular importance.

Except for your assumption that Ishamael didn't make it up out of whole cloth, this is the heart of the consensus theory of the "Corrupt Seanchan Prophesy Question"

Out of all copies in all the world of a collection that had been known and studied in every land we know of, Luthair's is explicitly, in-canon, attributed as the source of the "corruption" which can be readily identified by the presence or absence of the "Bow Before the Crystal Throne" passage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
4. Ishamael manipulates things so that the Seanchan emperor/empress is given a crystal throne and ensures that the position comes to be known as The Crystal Throne.

The position is NOT known as the Crystal Throne, it is known as "The Empress Of the Nine Moons" and the seat of the Empire is known as The Couourt of the Nine Moons.

The Throne is a ter'angreal and there is a distinction made in bowing to the Empress and bowing before the Crystal Throne in the common Seanchan usages. (there is an obvious assumption that the Empress would be sitting on the Throne during any bowing before it.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
Note that the red crystal throne was in the possession of the Jenn Aiel, and one of the things that they did was make it so that one could not travel/skim to Rhuidean, nor access it via T'A'R. This effectively prevented Ishamael and the other forsaken from obtaining the crystal throne and therefore getting Rand to kneel before that forsaken.

Again, this rests on the false assumption that there is any Prophecy anywhere regarding a Crystal Throne other than "Luthair's Pure Copy."

It also rests on the unsupportable assumption that the red chair mentioned in passing is in fact the "true" Crystal Throne, mentioned in Prophecy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136156)
In short, I'm postulating that the original purpose for the Aiel protecting all of those items of the One Power was to ensure the protection of that chair/throne.

That conflicts with the instructions given to Rand's ancestors about the cargo of *angreal. The Jenn Aiel were the Aiel who remained true to the charge laid upon them to guard and protect all of the items-of-power from Paraan Disen

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 07:07 AM

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Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136178)
Even if he was responsible for the Essanik corruption, and I agree that's by far the best explanation, the manner in which he corrupted them does not entail an irreconcilable difference with the KC.

From an old thread discussing events in TGS:

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Originally Posted by Terez (Post 112079)
No, it was Essanik Cycle, and what Brandon has said indicates that the Essanik Cycle is pure - it's the Karaethon Cycle that's suspect, and that on both sides of the ocean.

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Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136178)
I'll repeat; Rand kneeling and his binding the nine moons do not mutually exclude each other, and it looks more and more likely (notably from Aviendha's visions) that they will both come to pass. So my point about the inaccuracy of calling kneeling and binding an either/or stands.

What would be the point of corrupting a Prophecy if you didn't make it an "Exclusive OR" -- if you aren't trying to contradict/twhart the true Prophecy, what's the point?


You are assuming that Aviendha's second pass through the Columns was in fact a "True Prophecy" and not a false-prophesy -- like the many lives experienced in the Portal Stone trip to Falme (as guided by Verin)

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Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136178)
Shadow-corrupted prophecies are not inherently inconsistent with those given by Lightfriends, and, more than that, the only known point of corruption, the Dragon kneeling, appears increasingly necessary for his success.

Wouldn't acceding to demands arising from the deliberate corruption of a prophecy kind of be a dumb idea? The corruption of the Prophesy would seem to be expressly designed to thwart his success if he conforms to its expectations -- that hardly fits the definition of "necessary to his success."

The Shadow Prophecies are NOT corrupted Prophecies, they are a collection of Prophecies (real or imagined) by Darkfriends. They bear no relationship to "Luthair's Pure Copy" because they are NOT simply a corrupt version of the KC.

Each culture in the WOT has a set of Cultural specific Prophecies that are unrelated to the KC -- other than the fact they sometimes Prophecy the same event from differing perspectives. TheShadow Prophecies are just another set of cultural Prophecies to supplement the KC which was the same in all cultures before Luthair reached Seanchan.

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Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136178)
As for the 'Doom yet to come', this is both massively unspecific and requires trusting Ishamael's word for any credence to be given it. ... What it does not, any longer, appear to signify is the doom of the Dragon's hopes at the hands of the Seanchan.

Ishamael does indeed lie sometimes. He also has a tendency to brag. One part of "the doom of his empire and a doom yet to come" appears to be a legitmate case of bragging. There's no reason to assume that the rest of that statement was not also bragging; There is evidence of something otherwise unexplained that fits his claim.

All of the other "dooms" that could fit his claim are rather insignificant compared to the first Doom or to the theory that kneeling to the Crystal Throne would/could thwart Prophecy.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 08:12 AM

I guess I have a semi-related prophecy questions.


The Seanchan captain that Perrin made a deal with mentioned this prophecy:


When the Wolf King carries the hammer, thus are the final days known. When the fox marries the raven, and the trumpets of battle are blown.'



But, I thought that the Westlanders didn't know of any prophecy that included anyone but the Dragon. (I thought a character in the series mentions that at one point.)

So, wouldn't that mean the Seanchan's "corrupted" prophecies have true prophesies in them, that the Westlanders didn't have access to? (This leading to the conclusion that Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, and Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him. Assuming Crystal Throne/Nine Moons actually refer to the same thing.)

GonzoTheGreat 12-20-2010 08:16 AM

Verin knew about tit. That's why at some point she asked Perrin when he was going to give up the axe.
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Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 56, Goldeneyes
She shattered his moment of reverie. "Yes, you do. But you do not know what marrying Zarine Bashere means, do you?" She reached up to turn his axe in its loop on his belt, studying it. "When are you going to give this up for the hammer?"
Staring at the Aes Sedai, he reined Stepper back a pace, pulling the axe out of her hands, before he knew it. What marrying Faile meant? Give up the axe? What did she mean? What did she know?


CreationEdge 12-20-2010 08:25 AM

Thanks!

Do you have any idea what I meant about some character saying they knew of no prophecies about the 3 boys? Possibly Moiraine, but it might have been too early on for her to connect Wolf King with Perrin.

Although, Verin as a source... Didn't she also have access to Dark Prophecies?

Glen 12-20-2010 08:43 AM

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
Where is there one single canon reference to the Crystal Throne being mentioned in any prophecy, anywhere, other than the "Pure copy brought by Luthair?"

Deductive reasoning. You provided the relevant quote:

"The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still."

The wording of it, the exclamation in Miraj's observation that the Westland versions don't mention him serving the Crystal Throne, implies that this was not true of the pre-Luthair Seanchan version. Otherwise, it would have been more sweeping, suggesting that most corrupted versions lacked that part. More realistically, it wouldn't even have been noted, if all the "corrupted" versions lacked that part, as it wouldn't have surprised Miraj at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
There is no reason to assume that the Randland copies/translations survived intact but the pre-luthair Seanchan versions did not.

I haven't assumed anything. However, I think your assumption that copies of the KC had survived all the way through from the Breaking is a bit of a long bow to draw, though. I would ask you to provide a source for that claim.

Beyond that, I don't see why it's unreasonable to speculate that there were no full copies that survived in Seanchan even if some did in "Randland". It is made fairly clear in "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time" that Seanchan basically experienced constant warfare from the breaking all the way through to the Consolidation.

It makes sense to think that the "Essanik Cycle" was an oral tradition of prophecies, and thus likely to adjust as new prophecies blend themselves into the set. In Seanchan, there was no hoarding of knowledge by an equivalent of the White Tower, so prophecies in Seanchan would have had to have been kept in another manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
Based on the false premise that there is a prophecy anywhere in any Prophecy -- aiel, jendai, essanik, Amayar, or any nationality or empire specific collections -- that mentions the Crystal Throne, and/or the Dragon Reborn bowing/kneeling before it.

One of the other prophecies from the Essanik Cycle, the one regarding Rand atop Dragonmount, "the blind man shall stand upon his own grave", has come true. Given that this was not in the Karaethon Cycle, but was in the Essanik Cycle, indicates that there is at least one true prophecy found in Seanchan but not in the Westlands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
Except for your assumption that Ishamael didn't make it up out of whole cloth, this is the heart of the consensus theory of the "Corrupt Seanchan Prophesy Question"

Out of all copies in all the world of a collection that had been known and studied in every land we know of, Luthair's is explicitly, in-canon, attributed as the source of the "corruption" which can be readily identified by the presence or absence of the "Bow Before the Crystal Throne" passage.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

The Essanik Cycle is a "corrupted" version of the Karaethon Cycle, we know this. We also know that the Essanik Cycle has some real prophecies that aren't in the Karaethon Cycle. We are therefore left with two assumptions - either the Essanik Cycle is corrupted merely by other prophecies, or it is corrupted both by other prophecies AND by Ishamael.

Lacking strong evidence in favour of the more complex explanation, the simpler one should be preferred.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
The position is NOT known as the Crystal Throne, it is known as "The Empress Of the Nine Moons" and the seat of the Empire is known as The Couourt of the Nine Moons.

The Throne is a ter'angreal and there is a distinction made in bowing to the Empress and bowing before the Crystal Throne in the common Seanchan usages. (there is an obvious assumption that the Empress would be sitting on the Throne during any bowing before it.)

I didn't say the name of the person IN that position is the Crystal Throne, I said the position itself is the Crystal Throne. Seanchan, when referring to the leader of their empire generically, say "The Crystal Throne", just as those in Cairhien would refer generically to whoever holds the Sun Throne as The Sun Throne, as in "The Sun Throne receives petitions from its peasants on a Tuesday".

Also, are you sure that the Empress is called the Empress of the Nine Moons? I suspect that you made a mistake, there, and that it's the Empress of Seanchan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
Again, this rests on the false assumption that there is any Prophecy anywhere regarding a Crystal Throne other than "Luthair's Pure Copy."

It also rests on the unsupportable assumption that the red chair mentioned in passing is in fact the "true" Crystal Throne, mentioned in Prophecy.

I'm sorry, but you keep saying it's the FALSE ASSUMPTION. You claim to have omniscience on this matter? You know with absolute certainty that it's a false assumption? Or do you mean that it rests on an unjustified assumption?

Meanwhile, I am speculating that the red crystal chair is the crystal throne mentioned in the prophecy, because it would be an interesting possibility. I do not claim that it's the most likely case, just that it's a reasonable possibility that can explain everything.

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136199)
That conflicts with the instructions given to Rand's ancestors about the cargo of *angreal. The Jenn Aiel were the Aiel who remained true to the charge laid upon them to guard and protect all of the items-of-power from Paraan Disen

How is this a conflict? I'm not saying that the Jenn knew that it was the red crystal chair that needed to be protected, but that it was at least one key item that needed to be protected. Obviously, the Access Keys also needed to be protected.

Clearly it wasn't all of the *angreal that NEEDED to be protected, because many of them were stolen by bandits or taken by the Tuatha'an when splitting off. Assuming that these were not the *angreal that needed to be protected, we can assume that some subset NEEDED to be protected, and the rest were sent along because they might as well try to save more.


Just to point something out, by the way - The "Doom yet to come" could easily have been referring to the A'dam, which we can be confident was given to Luthair's army by Ishamael.

Ishamael was a philosopher - he'd have known that prophecies must be satisfied, but the manner in which they are satisfied don't necessarily have to be locked in. It would make sense that he would set things up to "ensure" that prophecies are fulfilled in such a way that they are satisfied in the way most desirable to the Shadow. Rand had to bow before the Crystal Throne... but the prophecy doesn't specify anything more than that.

By the way, what Ishamael said was "I whispered again, and the High King sent his armies across the Aryth Ocean, across the World Sea, and sealed two dooms. The doom of his dream of one land and one people, and a doom yet to come." Curious, since his dream of one land and one people was satisfied... just not in the Westland. Instead, it was fulfilled in Seanchan. Ishamael was crazy, and also self-important. Why do we assume that he was being simply honest in his claim?

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 08:44 AM

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Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136210)
But, I thought that the Westlanders didn't know of any prophecy that included anyone but the Dragon. (I thought a character in the series mentions that at one point.)

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Originally Posted by From the Encylopedia WOT's listing of the Kareaethon Cycle Prophesies
CoT,Ch28

"Fortune rides like the sun on high
with the fox that makes the ravens fly.
Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,
He snatches the moons from out of the sky."

That's just one example of a Prophecy that was incorrectly assumed to be about the Dragon Reborn. Obvious it is about Mat and not Rand.

"Bind the Nine Moons To Him" is similarly non specific about who "Him" is.

The "Who follows after" Prophecy is also from the KC, and is clearly about Not-the-dragon-reborn.

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Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136210)
So, wouldn't that mean the Seanchan's "corrupted" prophecies have true prophesies in them, that the Westlanders didn't have access to? (This leading to the conclusion that Rand will kneel to the Crystal Throne, and Rand will bind the nine moons to serve him. Assuming Crystal Throne/Nine Moons actually refer to the same thing.)


There are several different sets of Prophecy around -- the KC in corrupt and incorrupt versions and all of the Cultural Prophecies.

The Encyclopedia WOT Prophecies section has almost all of the Prophecies. Including the disputed Crystal Throne Prophesy (From Tuon's comment in WH Ch 14 apparently)-- without a footnote or other comment. :(

The Encyclopedia is NOT canon but is generally a good index into canon.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 08:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136219)
Deductive reasoning. You provided the relevant quote:

"The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still."

The wording of it, the exclamation in Miraj's observation that the Westland versions don't mention him serving the Crystal Throne, implies that this was not true of the pre-Luthair Seanchan version. ...

Since you obviously can't read and comprehend English, it's not worth trying to educate you: The Implication is that the pre-luthiar versions were exactly like the "corrupted Westland versions." Which are ACTUALLY NOT IN ANY WAY CORRUPTED!

Glen 12-20-2010 09:03 AM

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136222)
Since you obviously can't read and comprehend English, it's not worth trying to educate you: The Implication is that the pre-luthiar versions were exactly like the "corrupted Westland versions." Which are ACTUALLY NOT IN ANY WAY CORRUPTED!

Ah, so I see that the strong, positive debate without ad hominem has ended.

When you're ready to be mature, let me know.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 09:13 AM

Collections of prophecies are the closest things in Randland to scripture.

Ishy wouldn't have to spread FALSE prophecies in order to corrupt the two sets.

All he'd have to do is edit it. Take a few lines out here in Seanchan. Get a few lines taken out in Westland.


And you've just create an epic schism between two continents.

It'd be like taking select verses out of the Bible and teaching that to one nation, and taking different verses out of another copy and teaching it to another nation.

It'd be easy enough to cause chaos between the two nations that way.

GonzoTheGreat 12-20-2010 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136219)
The wording of it, the exclamation in Miraj's observation that the Westland versions don't mention him serving the Crystal Throne, implies that this was not true of the pre-Luthair Seanchan version. Otherwise, it would have been more sweeping, suggesting that most corrupted versions lacked that part. More realistically, it wouldn't even have been noted, if all the "corrupted" versions lacked that part, as it wouldn't have surprised Miraj at all.

Unless, of course, the precise nature of the supposed corruption had been suppressed.

Consider the two scenarios:
Each copy of the Prophecies found is checked on an individual basis against the version that Luthair brought, and if different, rejected and destroyed.
It is recorded precisely what the difference is, and it turns out that out of 1,000 copies, the only one that mentions the DR bowing before the CT is the one that Luthair brought. It is also found that all those copies are a lot older than Luthair's version. Then, when they come to Randland, that pattern once again holds: older copies do not ever mention this bowing.

The latter procedure almost might make one start to wonder whether it might not possibly have been Luthair's copy which was corrupted, don't you think?


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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136221)
"Bind the Nine Moons To Him" is similarly non specific about who "Him" is.

Actually, the actual prophecy is just a little bit more specific. Which will be rather important, I wager:
Quote:

Originally Posted by TDR, Chapter x, X
"Neither the first nor the last," Moiraine said. "Callandor will be but one fulfillment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he 'shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf'? What does it meant that he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains? And some are so obscure that he may already have fulfilled them, although I am not aware of it. But, no. Callandor is far from the end of it."

The inclusion of the word "serve" is rather important in deciding what the relationship should be.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 09:31 AM

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Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136227)
Ishy wouldn't have to spread FALSE prophecies in order to corrupt the two sets.

All he'd have to do is edit it. Take a few lines out here in Seanchan. Get a few lines taken out in Westland.

Editing is essentially all that has been done. The KC is purported to be a massive collection of Prophecy and the only "corruption" we actually know of is one short passage that is not in the Randland version or the pre-luthair version. The True corruption is actually any copy that does contain the Kneel to the Crystal Throne passage -- those that BG Miraj labels "corrupt" because they don't mention kneeling to the Crystal Throne are the uncorrupted versions.

There is a suggestion that there are other differences as well, but the single significant passage is the only one we know the nature of.

The vast majority of of the KC is the same in both versions and is presumeably True Prophesy.

However, the Kneel to the Crystal Throne passage MUST be false or there is no reason to include it. Simply removing passages of True Prophecy will not keep them from being fulfilled and no amount of ill will between competing versions there would be no true conflict in the Prophecies being fulfilled.

Only by arranging for the Seanchan to hold out for fulfillment of a False Prophecy would there be any benefit to corrupting their version to be in opposition to the true version.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 09:37 AM

I'm just gonna throw these out here... But I think they lend support to Tuon not being the 3rd, but hinting at what her importance will be:


Quote:

Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them was a Seanchan.
(Her is Egwene.)

Quote:

Egwene walks a ledge on a cliff. The ledge collapses leaving her hanging by her fingertips. A Seanchan woman climbs down the cliff and offers to help.

Yes, I'm assuming the Seanchan women is Tuon. But there are a couple others I think either of those Seanchan women above could be her.

Just possibilities, nothing more.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 136229)
The inclusion of the word "serve" is rather important in deciding what the relationship should be.

Which is why the consensus opinion has always been that was the passage the Kneel to the Crystal Throne prophecy replaced.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136232)

Only by arranging for the Seanchan to hold out for fulfillment of a False Prophecy would there be any benefit to corrupting their version to be in opposition to the true version.


No, that's wrong.

Already they think that Rand must bow to Fortuona.

Rand's people think that he must bind the nine moons to serve him.

But BOTH might need to happen.

Thus, by corrupting the sets of prophecies without adding false ones, we have a conflict where each side is waiting for the other to do what they want.

There's no reason those 2 prophecies have to be mutually exclusive.

Glen 12-20-2010 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 136229)
Unless, of course, the precise nature of the supposed corruption had been suppressed.

Consider the two scenarios:
Each copy of the Prophecies found is checked on an individual basis against the version that Luthair brought, and if different, rejected and destroyed.
It is recorded precisely what the difference is, and it turns out that out of 1,000 copies, the only one that mentions the DR bowing before the CT is the one that Luthair brought. It is also found that all those copies are a lot older than Luthair's version. Then, when they come to Randland, that pattern once again holds: older copies do not ever mention this bowing.

The latter procedure almost might make one start to wonder whether it might not possibly have been Luthair's copy which was corrupted, don't you think?

If Miraj had even slightly considered that possibility, then I'd agree with you. Note that Miraj refers specifically to having seen multiple versions of pre-Luthair Essanik Cycles.


By the way, in your quote from tDR, I spotted something interesting:

"What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed?"

I wonder if this is actually a part of the KC referring to Nynaeve, rather than Rand. Cutting of hope could easily refer to stilling/gentling, while Wounds of Madness could refer to the damage to male channeller's minds caused by the taint. Both healed... by Nynaeve. Both feats believed impossible in the Age of Legends, and thus of particular note.

An alternative interpretation of "wounds of madness" is the two wounds in Rand's side (not my interpretation, I just found it by searching the net).

If Nynaeve is being referenced in the KC, then it's definitely plausible that other parts of the KC that are attributed to Rand actually refer to people around him, instead.


In an effort to try to bring the thread back to the topic at hand, I'll try to segue a little. I wonder if Aviendha's meeting with Nakomi, and/or her subsequent experience, are referenced in any way in the KC, or other prophecies. Whichever version of Nakomi you ascribe to, it does look like that event has some significance in one way or another, and could conceivably be essential to something.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136235)
Already they think that Rand must bow to Fortuona.

Rand's people think that he must bind the nine moons to serve him.

But BOTH might need to happen.

Tuon believes that the Dragon Reborn must bow before the Crystal Throne -- Which is a ter'angreal that induces AWE toward the occupant.

Tuon is a "danger to him" in some unspecified way, but she's not Empress at that point. The "danger" she represents is genrally attributed to either Anath's possession of the Dominance Band or Tuon's intent to bundle him off to Seandar by force if necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winter's Heart
Chapter 14
What a Veil Hides
Tuon nodded. She herself was not sure at all. That sort of sureness could lead to the Tower of the Ravens even for her. Perhaps especially for her. "I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.

Anath's mood changed in a flash. Smiling, she laid a hand on Tuon's shoulder almost possessively. That was going too far, but she was Soe'feia, and the feel of ownership might have been only in Tuon's mind. "You must be careful," Anath purred. "You must not let him learn how dangerous you are to him until it is too late for him to escape."

Other Seanchan viewpoint make it clear that each and every one of them expect RAnd to sumbit to the Empires control and that Kneeling Before The Crystal Throne is an act of subservience.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136235)
There's no reason those 2 prophecies have to be mutually exclusive.

If the Seanchan expect subservience/submission to their command, and the true prophecy say the nine moons will serve him, then those two cases are mutually exclusive -- one does not 'serve' servants; especially if you are Seanchan.

The exclusivity of those two particular passages should be obvious, but there is nothing except the exclusivity to connect them. That and no better candidate for replacement by the corruption has shown up. :p

IF there is some other Prophecy that was excised or replaced, I'd like to know what you think it might be.

Still, the point that Prophecy WILL come true still holds. Unless the corruption is diametrically opposed to some real prophecy there's no point in setting up a thousand year plot that allows Prophecy to proceed without opposition.

The Corruption MUST be something like a conflict over who gets to command at T'G -- Which Tuon makes clear is supposed to be the Empress of The Nine Moons according to their version of the KC (which kneeling before the Crystal Throne would accomplish if it happened.) The true version of the KC makes it equally clear that The Dragon Reborn is the supreme authority at T'G.

One of them is going to be disappointed and their version of "Prophecy" is going to fail.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136243)
Other Seanchan viewpoint make it clear that each and every one of them expect RAnd to sumbit to the Empires control and that Kneeling Before The Crystal Throne is an act of subservience.

If the Seanchan expect subservience/submission to their command, and the true prophecy say the nine moons will serve him, then those two cases are mutually exclusive -- one does not 'serve' servants; especially if you are Seanchan.


You're wrong, again. You're assuming their INTERPRETATION of that prophecy is correct.


One can also kneel before a throne just like Rand did to Morgase.


But it's that false interpretation of prophecy (true prophecy) that leads to the chaos. There is nothing in any prophecy that we've seen in the entire series that hasn't either come true, or we can assume WILL come true. What HAS happened is that characters interpretations, and fan's interpretations (ie Carlinya) of prophecy and foresight are wrong.


If one prescient comment can be "To live you must die" then why can't we have a "To rule you must serve" deal?

And, I know Alanna can't use the Bond to Compel Rand, but he is bound to her, yet he rules her because she swore fealty. Tuon could be bound to Rand, but she could rule him.


The Seanchan only have part of true prophecy: DR must kneel before Crystal Throne.
Westland only has one part of true prophecy:
He must bind the nine moons to serve him.

Thus, both have 1-sides, skewed ideas about the future, creating an opposite. Neither are working with the whole picture in mind.


Let the Lord of Chaos rule!

GonzoTheGreat 12-20-2010 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 136241)
If Miraj had even slightly considered that possibility, then I'd agree with you. Note that Miraj refers specifically to having seen multiple versions of pre-Luthair Essanik Cycles.

I do not note that, and it's a pretty crucial part of this discussion, I think.

I'll requote the quote:
Quote:

Originally Posted by PoD, Chapter 24, A Time for Iron
The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too – not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! – but the Prophecies held men’s minds and hearts still. More than a few hoped the Return came soon, that these lands could be reclaimed before Tarmon Gai’don so the Dragon Reborn could win the Last Battle for the glory of the Empress, might she live forever. The Empress surely would want al’Thor sent to her, so she could see what sort of man served her. There would be no difficulty with al’Thor once he had knelt to her. Few easily shook off the awe they felt, kneeling before the Crystal Throne, with the thirst to obey drying their tongues. But it seemed obvious that bundling the fellow onto a ship would be easier if disposing of the Asha’man – they had to be disposed of, certainly – waited until al’Thor was well on his way across the Aryth Ocean to Seandar.

I think that the "these" which I have bolded refers to the lands where Miraj is while he is thinking about it: namely Randland. That way, the "they were corrupted too" is easily explainable: he thinks that the official Seanchan version is true, and all differing versions are corrupt.

If you take the bolded "these" as referring to pre-Luthair Seanchan, then that makes less sense. In that case, using "those" would have been better, from the viewpoint of someone in Randland. On top of that, the "they were corrupted too" now is totally wrong, since he would now be comparing the 'corrupt' pre-Luthair versions to those very same pre-Luthair versions, and deciding that they were corrupt too.

So all in all, I do not see any evidence that Miraj has actually seen any Seanchan pre-Luthair versions at all. He heard about them, but not (necessarily) what they contained. And he has seen Randland versions, which differ from the one that he is familiar with on a very important point.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 11:23 AM

Quote:

In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought.
Said. Not known to be true. Sounds like one invading culture trying to dominate and sweep aside the native culture!


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