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Weird Harold 12-20-2010 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136252)
One can also kneel before a throne just like Rand did to Morgase.

Morgase wasn't sitting on a ter'angreal that induces irreststable AWE. Quite aside fromthe fact then when Rand knelt to Maorgase, he was justher subject who already owed her fealty.

However, ...

Whether "Must kneel to the Crystal Throne" is a true prophecy or not, can you imagine any force capable of Forcing JesusRand to bow to Fortuona? It ain't gonna happen, noway, nohow.


The "Future" Aviendha saw in her second pass expliclty said the Seanchan "forced" him to bow and that was the root of all the troubles inflicted upon the Aiel. Since Rand is NOT going to be forced to bow to Fortuona -- if she gets bowed to, it will be HIS choice, not hers -- the future Aviendha saw is false. At the very least, it is among the least likely of the possibilities a ter'angreal like the one for a wise one's first test would show.

So, is the future Aviendha was shown a true future because it was shown by a ter'angreal that shows a true renditions of the past and none of the improbabilities shown matter; quads with four different phenotypes, The Car'a'carn being forced to bow to the Seanchan Empress, etc.

OR

Is the future Aviendha saw suspect because it came from a ter'angreal that -- from years of discussion -- has commonly been understood to function in a way that would not permit easy access to the future. The improbabilites shown being just further reason for suspicion.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 12:51 PM

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Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136260)
Said. Not known to be true. Sounds like one invading culture trying to dominate and sweep aside the native culture!

I think Rand could resolve this issue by trumping Luthair's copy with Hawkwing's.

In the Stone of Tear, Rand ransacked the library and the Great Hoard for copies of the Dragon Prophecies. He mentions to Moriane that some of them are very old -- it would not surprise me that Hawkwing's personal copy was among them and identifiable in some unforgeable way.

CreationEdge 12-20-2010 12:53 PM

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The "Future" Aviendha saw in her second pass expliclty said the Seanchan "forced" him to bow and that was the root of all the troubles inflicted upon the Aiel. Since
Uh, to me, that scene sounded like an angsty teenager spouting the misconceptions of her people.

Rand was family, and the Car'a'carn. OBVIOUSLY they MUST have forced him to kneel to her. Why? Because we don't like her! Phaw!

It didn't seem to ring true as an actual account of what happened, but an outsider's interpretation. (How many times have we seen actual events get turned into crazy rumors with only a hint of the truth in it? It's one of RJ's main themes.) That whole scene was subjective, not objective.



Quote:

Morgase wasn't sitting on a ter'angreal that induces irreststable AWE. Quite aside fromthe fact then when Rand knelt to Maorgase, he was justher subject who already owed her fealty.
No, but it was just a simple act. I think Jesus Rand could humble himself for this act for an Empress (who would deserve decidedly more respect than a mere Queen)


Crystal Throne awe induction doesn't seem to NEED be part of the equation. If Tuon resisted Dark Rand's Ta'veren push to force her to agree with him, I'm sure he could resist something like that, now.

finn 12-20-2010 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136036)
You are assuming that stress -- specifically "great stress" -- is the only possible manefestation of inherited memories.

The only trigger, yes. Because we have never seen any evidence to the contrary. We know of ter'angreal that can view/show the pattern but we don't know of any that can pick out inherited memories. Not unless those memories come from threads in the pattern themselves, which would explain quite a lot.

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You admit that the memories are something within Mat -- and by extension anyone inthe WOT with similar bloodlines -- but you refuse to admit that stimulating memories that are already present MUST be inherently less difficult than tracking down those same memories from an outside source and forcing them into the candidate so the candidate can experience them from a "first person present" POV.
...
What matters is that those memories are already present within the candidate. Whether the Columns use any of the stimuli known to trigger memory in the real world -- scent, sound, texture, sight, hypnosis, etc -- the memories the candidates are within them (and anyone else of a strong Aiel bloodline.)
We don't really know the ancestral memories to begin with were always in Mat, just that he has accessed them when triggered by stress. Where they come from is another problem that I'll try to address later. The reason why they may not be in him (or Egwene), is because they don't remember details after the event. The only time Mat had recall was because they filled some of the holes in his own memories caused by that powerful evil that was taking him over.

And aside from Mat and Egwene, we haven't seen anyone manifest ancestral memory, particularly the Aiel who have seen plenty of action. So either ancestral purity on their level must be harder to maintain than the norm or the Aiel are not easily stressed. The Aiel ancestry stretches further back than Manetheren's so there's a greater possibility of dilution and fragmentation to explain the discrepancy.

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Anyone NOT of a strong Aiel Bloodline will see nothing --per RJ.
Interesting that the ter'angreal would be set that way. That is a complication for Rand since he is only half-Aiel. Did RJ say anything else? How about a link to the quote?

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According to Halima, "the body has its own imperatives" -- OWTTE;
I had a feeling Halima would come up when I mentioned the forsaken. This was clearly about the sex change and nothing else.

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If you need to positively identify someone's ancestry, which is easier to access?

A Blood sample taken from the person

OR

Tracing birth and marriage and census records through some central database? (assuming of course the databse is absolutley accurate and unambiguous.)

However the ter'angreal functions, accessing information that is within the confines of the ter'angreal has to be easier than accessing the same information through channels outside the confines of the ter'angreal. That's true whether the ter'angreal is technology or magical.
The ter'angreal was meant to show the truth about the Aiel's origins, it wasn't a DNA test to confirm their ancestry. That's not a very good example you gave. A blood sample taken from the person would still be checked against a database for comparison.

Let's try a more familiar analogy instead. Would you give a blood test if you wanted to watch missed youtube webisodes of someone who is reading the wheel of time books and conveying their impressions chapter by chapter? You're a subscriber so you simply log on to the youtube channel, find the playlist you want and browse through its videos. You might also want to check out another video playlist from this user talking about theories on what they think is likely to happen in the books, even if they might end up wrong.

The pattern represents a simple concept. The threads aren't just people, they are the entire lives they lead. To view even part of a thread would be to relive that part of a person's life. You said earlier that the blood defines the person but if it's the pattern that provides ancestral memories then that's a practical way for them to be accessible by that ter'angreal, as others of its kind are already known to show things from the pattern. Not by inducing stress within the user but by examining related threads involved in major events, parts that stand out in the pattern.

Imagine how the pattern must be woven. Families in the Pattern would have life threads linked at least for a while, a child's life thread woven into the design from under the parent's threads. Perhaps to take over from their parents and lead similar lives after they're gone, at least in certain communities like the Two Rivers where things didn't change much. The design gets layered over time like extremely complex lace, with life-threads of the dead running underneath, perhaps waiting to be woven in again. In a close knit group like certain families in the two rivers there can be a tight enmeshing, with those undercurrents seething like a river in flood.

Someone like Mat's life-thread might find itself overlaying a thread belonging to some otherwise distant yet prolific ancestor{s}, common to both his paternal and maternal lines on multiple levels. And also because the wheel had decided to spin things that way, in its plans for Mat and his purpose in the pattern. So a strain in the pattern tugging or pressuring a point in Mat's thread, something that causes him stress at that point in time, might conceivably nudge it closer to the one underneath bringing the two threads into momentary contact. Thus a living person touches the life of someone long dead but it is momentary and passes quickly leaving no understanding.

With the healing, you have a worn, moth eaten Mat-thread courtesy of the dagger and the strain is so great that the threads twist or get entangled, not merely touching. The ancestor thread slips into the bits of Mat that were eaten away. To use your words, Mat regressed to some Manetheren battlefield when he experienced those "memories" in his healing. He wasn't just remembering them, he was reliving them which is consistent since a thread is a person's life.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136271)
It didn't seem to ring true as an actual account of what happened, but an

That pretty much describes Aviendha's whole second encounter with the ter'angreal, for me -- as well as her encounter with Nakomi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136271)
No, but it was just a simple act. I think Jesus Rand could humble himself for this act for an Empress (who would deserve decidedly more respect than a mere Queen)

Rand can humble himself to his Ruler. The Dragon Reborn is a completely different issue. The Prophecy implies more than mere respect -- either version.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136271)
Crystal Throne awe induction doesn't seem to NEED be part of the equation. If Tuon resisted Dark Rand's Ta'veren push to force her to agree with him, I'm sure he could resist something like that, now.

If the Seanchan version of the Prophecy is worded such that the awe induction is integral to the fulfillment of the prophecy. Whether Rand could resist it or not isn't really the point to the false Prophecy -- the point is that up to the massacre in Seandar by Semirhage, the entire Seanchan policy towards the Dragon Reborn was to drag him off to Seandar; about as far from Shayol Ghul as it is possible to get.

Fulfillment of the kneeling prophecy has always been, at best, a remote improbability, but getting the dragon reborn as far as possible from where he needs to be was an attainable goal.

Selling Egwene to Suroth was another branch to the same tactic -- almost all newly captured Damane were being shipped back to Seanchan and Egwene at that time was considered by most (in-story) to be a hook on Rand because of a supposed love interest.

Interfering with the necessary "division of the land by the sword" is only a secondary benefit of the corruption -- now that the Crystal Throne isn't in the hands of the Empress.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 136276)
The only trigger, yes. Because we have never seen any evidence to the contrary. We know of ter'angreal that can view/show the pattern but we don't know of any that can pick out inherited memories. Not unless those memories come from threads in the pattern themselves, which would explain quite a lot.

We know of the Glass Columns. :D

The memories could come from the Pattern. I don't believe they do and you don't seem to be willing to admit that they might NOT. Not much point in continuing this discussion, is there?

finn 12-20-2010 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136299)
We know of the Glass Columns. :D

The memories could come from the Pattern. I don't believe they do and you don't seem to be willing to admit that they might NOT. Not much point in continuing this discussion, is there?

No, I guess not. I sort of realized that a couple of posts ago but kept at it because what is now canon ought to be defended. ;)

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by finn (Post 136305)
No, I guess not. I sort of realized that a couple of posts ago but kept at it because what is now canon ought to be defended. ;)

But that is the real question, isn't it. Just what is the 'new canon?'

I think we can agree that Aviendha experienced a second pass through the Columns that showed her A future. The question for me is did the ter'angreal experience that second pass?

lord Mordeth 12-20-2010 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 136201)
From an old thread discussing events in TGS:





What would be the point of corrupting a Prophecy if you didn't make it an "Exclusive OR" -- if you aren't trying to contradict/twhart the true Prophecy, what's the point?


The emphasis there must be on 'trying', because although Ish may well be the smartest man in the world, the emphasis there has to be on man. I'm sure he thought that adding a verse regarding the Dragon kneeling would prevent the Seanchan alliance, but of course it doesn't have to, it only made the initial negotiations between Rand and Tuon more antagonistic, there was never the necessary logical opposition.

And all this raises a further question; unless there is other, more clearly Seanchan-related material in the KC, how would Ishamael have known that 'binding the nine moons' had anything to do with them? Do we have any evidence that the nine moons were a symbol already associated with Hawkwing's family at the time Ish was advising him?

If not, the entire speculation regarding Ishamael corrupting that aspect of the the prophecies becomes moot, because he'd have had no reason think doing so would cause any harm to the Dragon's eventual rise. While we're on it, what reason do we have to believe that Ishamael could have foreseen the moment of the Corenne and the coming of age of the Dragon coinciding? We're not aware of any personal prophetic talents of his.


Quote:

You are assuming that Aviendha's second pass through the Columns was in fact a "True Prophecy" and not a false-prophesy -- like the many lives experienced in the Portal Stone trip to Falme (as guided by Verin)
I am, based on the text. I won't type it out, but she comments that the visions seemed more real than those in the rings, which are themselves apparently equivalent or related to the PS visions in this respect.



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Wouldn't acceding to demands arising from the deliberate corruption of a prophecy kind of be a dumb idea? The corruption of the Prophesy would seem to be expressly designed to thwart his success if he conforms to its expectations -- that hardly fits the definition of "necessary to his success."
As above, it may have been designed that way, but the design was faulty, albeit a pretty good shot in the dark given what little Ishamael had to go on 1000 years before events actually unfolded. And I don't think awareness of the corruption aspect, if it even occurs to Rand, will inform his decision-making; so dumb or not, it doesn't factor into the plot.

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The Shadow Prophecies are NOT corrupted Prophecies, they are a collection of Prophecies (real or imagined) by Darkfriends. They bear no relationship to "Luthair's Pure Copy" because they are NOT simply a corrupt version of the KC.

Each culture in the WOT has a set of Cultural specific Prophecies that are unrelated to the KC -- other than the fact they sometimes Prophecy the same event from differing perspectives. TheShadow Prophecies are just another set of cultural Prophecies to supplement the KC which was the same in all cultures before Luthair reached Seanchan.
I understand all that! I thought I'd made that clear in the previous post, where I implicitly acknowledged that the SPs were not a corruption of anything. But they may be in opposition to the KC in ways the Essanik is not; we can really only RAFO here.



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Ishamael does indeed lie sometimes. He also has a tendency to brag. One part of "the doom of his empire and a doom yet to come" appears to be a legitmate case of bragging. There's no reason to assume that the rest of that statement was not also bragging; There is evidence of something otherwise unexplained that fits his claim.

All of the other "dooms" that could fit his claim are rather insignificant compared to the first Doom or to the theory that kneeling to the Crystal Throne would/could thwart Prophecy.
And, being insignificant, would be excellent things to unsettle his enemies with until they actually happened; or even after, given how vague he kept the statement. Once we get into this kind of territory, it's pure speculation.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136389)
...I'm sure he thought that adding a verse regarding the Dragon kneeling would prevent the Seanchan alliance, but of course it doesn't have to, it only made the initial negotiations between Rand and Tuon more antagonistic, there was never the necessary logical opposition.

The Shadow has throughout the books has tried to turn Rand to serve the DO. The primary goal seems to have been to set up a situation, which could be forced, that would put the Dragon Reborn in a situation where he was a) subservient to a Shadow Puppet Regime and b) imprisoned halfway around the world from where he needs to be for T'G.

A secondary goal is to cause a delay in fulfilling the various "divide the land" prophecies by delaying a truce with the Seanchan

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136389)
And all this raises a further question; unless there is other, more clearly Seanchan-related material in the KC, how would Ishamael have known that 'binding the nine moons' had anything to do with them? Do we have any evidence that the nine moons were a symbol already associated with Hawkwing's family at the time Ish was advising him?

The Crystal Throne has apparently been located in the Court Of The Nine Moons since long before Luthair arrived. It isn't really clear when that particular "Evil Aes Sedai's" realm was conquered and consolodated, but it must have been fairly early in the Consolidation of Seanchan.

Ishamael didn't need to know of a connection between "the nine moons" and Hawking, he just needed to steer Luthair into co-opting the Crystal Throne and the Court where it resides as his seat of power -- literally and figuratively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136389)
If not, the entire speculation regarding Ishamael corrupting that aspect of the the prophecies becomes moot, because he'd have had no reason think doing so would cause any harm to the Dragon's eventual rise. While we're on it, what reason do we have to believe that Ishamael could have foreseen the moment of the Corenne and the coming of age of the Dragon coinciding? We're not aware of any personal prophetic talents of his.

Ishamael had access to the KC, the Shadow Prophecy, and the Essanik cycle At least two of the three point to Falme and the arrival of the Seanchan Forerunners as the revelation of the DR to the world. Verin figured out that much with only a century or so of life and disputed translations to work on it.

How much better could Ishamael do with First Edition copies of the various Prophecies, in his native tongue, and a couple thousand years to study them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136389)
I am, based on the text. I won't type it out, but she comments that the visions seemed more real than those in the rings, which are themselves apparently equivalent or related to the PS visions in this respect.

Actually, the common consensus has been that both of the Three Arches testing ter'angreal are related to T'A'R, not to the Mirror Worlds. Future visions obtained in T'A'R are Conditional Futures.

With Rand's trip through the Columns, we have Mat's POV of him actually entering the ter'angreal. With Aviendha's trips, especially the second trip, we have only Aviendha's POV. That leaves the possibility that Aviendha hallucinated the second trip open to consideration.

With all of the improbabilites concerning her second trip I think that accepting the experience as 'canon' without discussion is probably a mistake. That Aviendha experienced what her POV depicted is unquestionable. That she experienced what really happened is doubtfull, IMO -- Especially considering the similar improbabilities of her encounter with Nakomi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136389)
I understand all that! I thought I'd made that clear in the previous post, where I implicitly acknowledged that the SPs were not a corruption of anything. But they may be in opposition to the KC in ways the Essanik is not; we can really only RAFO here.

Per Brandon, as reported in one of the signing report threads, there are no competeing prophecies a la The Belgariad. All genuine Prophecies WILL be fulfilled as long as the Pattern remains to fulfill them. The interpretation of the various Prophecies may conflict, but the Prophecies themselves can co-exist without conflict.

Brandon also said that some Prophecies might not be recorded correctly so that Prophecy may appear to fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lord Mordeth (Post 136389)
And, being insignificant, would be excellent things to unsettle his enemies with until they actually happened; or even after, given how vague he kept the statement. Once we get into this kind of territory, it's pure speculation.

True, but in the case of the corrupt Seanchan prophecies, the speculation is backed by over a decade of discussions and specific signing questions intended to support one faction over the other -- like Brandon's recent answer about Eddings style competition between Prophecies.

Glen 12-20-2010 11:17 PM

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 136254)
I do not note that, and it's a pretty crucial part of this discussion, I think.

Fair point. My mistake.

I was working from memory when I said what I said, and I mistakenly thought that he said he'd seen the Seanchan ones.

CreationEdge 12-21-2010 08:14 AM

So, the argument then is that Sealed Ishy decided what was important to do with his time was "corrupt" the Seanchan's prophecies?

Because before it seemed like he spent his limited influence to initiate the Trolloc Wars, and then to turn Hawkwing against the White Tower.

Prophecies seem like small game.

Weird Harold 12-21-2010 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CreationEdge (Post 136451)
So, the argument then is that Sealed Ishy decided what was important to do with his time was "corrupt" the Seanchan's prophecies?

Because before it seemed like he spent his limited influence to initiate the Trolloc Wars, and then to turn Hawkwing against the White Tower.

Prophecies seem like small game.

It would be nice if we knew exactly how much time Ishamael spent on furlough.

Ishanmael wouldn't really need to spend a lot of HIS time on manipulating the Seanchan Empire's development. How long does it take to change one or two verses in the KC and plant it on Luthair; zip over to Seanchan and prime a DF or two to Welcome Luthair and discover his Pure copy." Total time added to the process of getting Hawkwing's armies out of the succession battle would be maybe an hour or two, tops. Maybe another hour or two to nudge things in the right direction on some other furlough, but it is a remarkably durable and effortless investment for a potentially very large prize.

ETA: It would take another five minutes or so to order the SEanchan DF network to steer Luthair in the direction of the Crystal Throne and Deaine(sp) to Luthair with the a'dam if you want to extend Ishamael's influence that far.

GonzoTheGreat 12-21-2010 09:37 AM

Probably another two hours for a similar scheme aimed at the expedition sent to conquer Shara. That would then have set those two empires fighting each other for control of the DR.

Weird Harold 12-21-2010 07:07 PM

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 136465)
Probably another two hours for a similar scheme aimed at the expedition sent to conquer Shara. That would then have set those two empires fighting each other for control of the DR.

That, too.


We really don't know how long or how often he was free, but he was involved, or claims to have been involved, in enough plots and conspiracies that we can deduce he's pretty good at multi-tasking and delegating day to day implementation of long-term projects to minions -- like the BA.

metaphor 12-23-2010 01:12 PM

The columns were left by the Jenn and aes sedai who were with them to guide the Aiel.
In that sense they didn't show Aviendha just one of the possible future, but a future in which things go wrong for the Aiel.
There are probably many things that could go wrong, but the columns showed her only what could go wrong that would affect the Aiel, so that she could work to prevent them.
Nakomi was maybe also left by them, as a guide for Aviendha, perhaps a copnstruct of power, or a spirit representing the collective consciousness of those who built Rhuidean, bound to the mist dome, and that Rand and Asmodean freed.


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