Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/index.php)
-   Book 13: Towers of Midnight (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=42)
-   -   The Faces of Nakomi (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4439)

Weird Harold 12-10-2010 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 134929)
On the other hand, the idea that it was a Jenn Aiel, and that her survival is tied to the fog over Rhuidean, provides some supporting evidence, a mechanism that is lacking in other versions of the concept (how does she know when to come out of the vacuole?), and a reasonable in-story explanation that can be revealed quite neatly. It isn't a complete explanation on its own (the oddities such as the amount of coals, etc, are unexplained), but it passes muster as a plausible theory and a confirmable one (that is, it can be confirmed within the story).

Let's see here:

A Jenn Aiel survived in Rhuidean (and avoided a couple of centuires of Aiel Wise One and Clan Chief candidates) because of the fog and is only now -- a year or so after the fog was lifted -- wandered into the Waste and just happened to encounter Aviendha and agreew ith all of Aviendha's subconsious concerns about the future.

OR

A strange woman intercepts Aviendha and uses Compulsion (or some other Jedi Mind Trick) to determine what subconsious concerns she might have that could be reinforced and then reinforces them.

We do know that The Forsaken and more than one DF can

a) hide their ability to channel

b) disguise their appearance and voice

c) Use Compulsion to gain information

d) implant False memories.

Which is really more plausible? A figure from a clan all known evidence says is extinct, or a DF using abilities and techniques we've seen used before?

Svengali Nakomi DOES explain 'the oddities such as the amount of coals, etc,' whereas none of the other explanations (that don't involve T'A'R) do -- that's pretty much why there is a Svengali Nakomi theory in the first place. :D

ETA:

Quote:

... She [Moggy] stood, and suddenly Elayne's entire body tingled. Her brain seemed to shiver; she was conscious of nothing but the woman's voice, roaring in her ears from a great distance. "You will pick up your things from the table, and when you have replaced them where they belong, you will remember nothing of what happened here except that I came thinking you were friends I knew from the country. I was mistaken, I had a cup of tea, and I left."

Elayne blinked and wondered why she was tying her purse back beside her belt pouch. Nynaeve was frowning at her own hands, adjusting her pouch.

"A nice woman," Elayne said, rubbing her forehead. She had a headache coming on. "Did she give her name? I don't remember."

"Nice?" Nynaeve's hand came up and gave a sharp tug to her braids; she stared as if it had moved of its own accord. "I... do not think she did."

"What were we talking of when she came in?" Egeanin had just gone. What had it been?
This scene is a bit more forthcoming than the scene with Nakomi and Aviendha, but compare the momentary confusion about why she was tying her pouch to Aviendha's momentary confusion about coals, cookpots, and Nakomi's disappearance.

A comparison of technique suggests Nakomi wasn't Moghedien but with the change in authors it can't be completely ruled out.

FelixPax 12-10-2010 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 134986)
No, Silvie was Somebody becoming the illusion of an 'old woman' ...

The identification of Silvie as Lanfear is entirely supposition.

Mierin, in TofM book is a woman with:
  • "silvery hair";
  • "Those eyes";
  • "The face was different";
  • "but he did know that soul".
Its highly debatable what has occurred to Mierin, and how.

My hunch for Mierin's changed appearance is:
The Eelfinn's price to answer Mierin's questions, was to Age her extremely. Why? Because Mierin enjoyed being attractive, and creating "a seething viper within" the Dragon Reborn's heart. That was a steep price to pay, for Mierin.

Mierin has become an old woman, whom a Whitecloak might call an old witch--an Aes Sedai. Mierin likely fits the appearance of Baba Yaga, as of TofM book.

Mierin is likely the 'Fourth Maiden', to gain a share of Rand al'Thor heart.



Quote:

That's really the Point about Svengali Nakomi -- it doesn't matter who she was, only what she did. The clues within the scene suggest she is responsible for Aviendha zoning out and losing track of time in at least four instances.
An individual's group identities or lack there of, do manner. The Nakomi found in the WoT series, broke from her Clan & Sept, yet remained within the Aiel Waste. Nakomi alone in the desert, is similar to Liah alone at Shadar Logoth (LoC, Ch.21; ACoS, Ch.41).

Character, Group changes absolutely do manner.

Weird Harold 12-10-2010 07:11 PM

Quote:

Mierin, in TofM book is...
Totally irrelevant to the identification of Silvie in TFoH.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 135000)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold
That's really the Point about Svengali Nakomi -- it doesn't matter who she was, only what she did. The clues within the scene suggest she is responsible for Aviendha zoning out and losing track of time in at least four instances.

An individual's group identities or lack there of, do manner. The Nakomi found in the WoT series, broke from her Clan & Sept, yet remained within the Aiel Waste. Nakomi alone in the desert, is similar to Liah alone at Shadar Logoth (LoC, Ch.21; ACoS, Ch.41).

Character, Group changes absolutely do manner.

Nakomi is of the class female channeler, willing to use compulsion or other jedi-mind-tricks. Which specific member of that rather large grouping she might be is irrelevant.

All members of the group Svengali Nakomi could be drawn from have the means and motive for interrogating Aviendha with Compulsion and/or planting false memories. What matters to the theory, is whether Nakomi was acting as A Svengali and mesmerizing Aviendha.

The clues to what Nakomi did don't require a name or motive, only that something did or did not happen. The only thing that matter are What Happened and What was the Result.

Finding out WHO and WHY are strictly secondary to determining WHAT happened.

Flinn Sedai 12-10-2010 07:49 PM

A lot of people have said that they don't like the idea of Nakomi being from the future, but I haven't heard an argument against it, other than thinking it'd be lame.

Her changes in tense, seeming prescience, lack of knowledge of current events, Aiel perspective (including grasp of ji'e'toh, and dodging questions about her home all point to Marty McFly.

Granted, the odds of her going to seduce Rand at a dance are low. I still think it holds.

Weird Harold 12-10-2010 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai (Post 135031)
A lot of people have said that they don't like the idea of Nakomi being from the future, but I haven't heard an argument against it, other than thinking it'd be lame.

Her changes in tense, seeming prescience, lack of knowledge of current events, Aiel perspective (including grasp of ji'e'toh, and dodging questions about her home all point to Marty McFly.

Granted, the odds of her going to seduce Rand at a dance are low. I still think it holds.

How does Nakomi McFly explain the oddnesses with the coals and dinner?

Flinn Sedai 12-10-2010 10:48 PM

I will admit that it doesn't explain those.

The Svengali explanation misses a lot more points, though. Admittedly, that isn't strong defense of my idea.

I suppose my point is that Nakomi finding Dr. Brown explains a lot more about the scene than any other explanation thus far.

Weird Harold 12-10-2010 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai (Post 135065)
The Svengali explanation misses a lot more points, though. Admittedly, that isn't strong defense of my idea.

What points doesn't Svengali Nakomi explain?

It was crafted as a "what if?" to explain not only dinner in the dessert, but the "second trip" through a ter'angreal that has never (and shouldn't be able to) displayed the future.

Flinn Sedai 12-10-2010 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135066)
What points doesn't Svengali Nakomi explain?

It was crafted as a "what if?" to explain not only dinner in the dessert, but the "second trip" through a ter'angreal that has never (and shouldn't be able to) displayed the future.

The fact that Nakomi kept switching tenses, didn't have knowledge of current events, having an Aiel perspective on things, and refusing to answer where she was from.

We also don't know what that ter'angreal is and is not supposed to do. Consider, though, how the Aes Sedai had such perfect knowledge of what needed to happen with Rhuidean. Where it needed to be, the effects of not going, what they needed to see to survive as a people, so on and so forth.

Those weren't a part of the Jendai prophecies. Near as we can tell, the Aes Sedai called them all together, and just told them what WOULD happen. Granted, it could have to do with the rings, but that only gives vague impressions. Whereas, the columns give accurate and solid impressions.

Seemed to me that she changed the setting on the columns from Past to Future.

Weird Harold 12-11-2010 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai (Post 135067)
The fact that Nakomi kept switching tenses, didn't have knowledge of current events, having an Aiel perspective on things, and refusing to answer where she was from.

If you only tuned into a conversation every hour or so wouldn't you get much the same effect as the coversation with Nakomi?

The theory is that Aviendha has a strong personality, the kind that is naturally resistant to Compulsion and she kept shaking off the light Compulsion that Nakomi was using to question her.

Nakomi's ignorance of current events is consistent with someone fishing for what a subject knows about current events from the enemy's POV.

Having an Aiel perspective on things is an illusion because she was parroting Aviendha's concerns back at her to reinforce them.

Nakomi didn't just refuse to answer where she was from, she turned aside almost every question Aviendha asked that didn't reinforce Aviendha's concerns about the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai (Post 135067)
We also don't know what that ter'angreal is and is not supposed to do.

We know what it has shown in the past and have a few comments about it from RJ interviews. We know for certain that it sifts through bloodlines for significant moments in Aiel ancestry. Per RJ, the regressions are different for each individual tracing only that individual's Aiel ancestry.

The exact mechanism of the ter'angreal is unknown, but the KISS principle says the easiest way for it to get those memories is to raise them from the "Aiel Blood" of the candidate. I don't know of any competing explanation that has found any traction since RJ gave the information about each individual's experience being indivualized.

Given that theory of operation, Reading the Future should not be within the Ter'angreal's capabilities. Aside from the oft repeated cliche that the only difference between past and future is the direction you are looking, there is no reason to expect a ter'angreal for reading memories (proving patrimony?) should be able to extrapolate the fate of descendents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai (Post 135067)
Consider, though, how the Aes Sedai had such perfect knowledge of what needed to happen with Rhuidean. Where it needed to be, the effects of not going, what they needed to see to survive as a people, so on and so forth.

Ever hear of Foretelling? Dreaming?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tSR Ch 25
Rand's first step in the Columns:
"Your Wise Ones have spoken to you," Mordaine said, "or you would not be here. You know the cost to those who refuse."

Charendin pushed his way to the front, alternately glaring at Mandein and the Jenn. Mandein had put that long puckered scar down his face; they had nearly killed each other three times. "Just come to you?" Charendin said. "Whichever of us comes to you will lead the Aiel?"

"No." The word came thin as a whisper, but strong enough to fill every ear. It came from the dark eyed Aes Sedai sitting in her carved chair with a blanket across her legs as if she felt cold under the broiling sun. "That one will come later," she said. "The stone that never falls will fall to announce his coming. Of the blood, but not raised by the blood, he will come from Rhuidean at dawn, and tie you together with bonds you cannot break. He will take you back, and he will destroy you."

Some of the sept chiefs moved as if to leave, but none took more than a few steps. Each had listened to the Wise One of his sept. Agree, or we will be destroyed as if we never were. Agree, or we will destroy ourselves.

"This is some trick," Charendin shouted. Under Aes Sedai stares he lowered his voice, but it held anger yet. "You mean to gain control of the septs. Aiel bend knee to no man or woman." He jerked his head, avoiding the Aes Sedai's eyes. "To no one," he muttered.

"We seek no control," Narisse told them.

"Our days dwindle," Mordaine said. "A day will come when the Jenn are no more, and only you will remain to remember the Aiel. You must remain, or all is for nothing, and lost."

The flatness of her voice, the calm sureness, silenced Charendin, but Mandein had one more question. "Why? If you know your doom, why do this?" He gestured toward the structures rising in the distance.

"It is our purpose," Dermon replied calmly. "For long years we searched for this place, and now we prepare it, if not for the purpose we once thought. We do what we must, and keep faith."

Aside from quoting from the Aiel Prophecies, the whole scene stinks of laying a geas on the Aiel to ensure a Prophecy is fulfilled in its proper time. Whether Dreaming or Foretelling, the Wise ones foretold the death of any clan that didn't conform and the Last of the Aes Sedai in Rhuidean foretold doom if the Aiel didn't remember. ('IF' is genrally an indicator that Dreaming is involved rather than Foretelling, BTW)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flinn Sedai (Post 135067)
Seemed to me that she changed the setting on the columns from Past to Future.

How would the Column read memories from Blood that does not yet exist? Past performance doesn't suggest that the ter'angreal should have a "Future Setting." Aviendha didn't actually DO anything to the ter'angreal except sense it's function -- IIRC she didn't even embrace Saidar to enhance her senses.

"Changing the settings" of the ter'angreal is one of those oddities that Svengali Nakomi attempts to explain -- Avi didn't change the settings, she didn't do anything except trigger a post-hypnotic suggestion that simulated a passage through the ter'angreal.

FelixPax 12-11-2010 12:47 AM

Concentrate on the becoming, not on what it became.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135016)
Totally irrelevant to the identification of Silvie in TFoH.

It seems 'We will remain in disagreement', on that issue. Moving on...


Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135016)
Nakomi is of the class female channeler, willing to use compulsion or other jedi-mind-tricks. Which specific member of that rather large grouping she might be is irrelevant.

That's an assumption it was channeling involved, not some other "new Talent" which aided the cooking of Aviendha's meal.

I suspect it is indeed some other "new Talent", likely related to 'healing the Land'. Nakomi's cooking abilities are rare. Not one known full Aes Sedai has this 'Talent', either. :cool:



Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135016)
All members of the group Svengali Nakomi could be drawn from have the means and motive for interrogating Aviendha with Compulsion and/or planting false memories. What matters to the theory, is whether Nakomi was acting as A Svengali and mesmerizing Aviendha.

That assuming the authors used the Character Parallel in exactly the manner, which you found her described as. Considering how many sources RJ drew to create various Major Characters, I'm highly skeptically he followed the original source 100% accurately. Mat would bet against your interpretation too, I'd gather. ;o)

Planting false memories? And your proof for that claim is, again what?


Aviendha KNOWS Mat Cauthon went to Rhuidean willingly, in her words to gain "Honor"... in book 4 'TSR'. Aviendha was already a Character set-up developmentally to being among the first to acknowledge, that Mat Cauthon is also "He Who Comes With the Dawn". That other "He".


What I'm more curious of, in that scene with Nakomi, is how did Aviendha seemingly forget about the Bleakness? And those who fled the Aiel Clans, Septs who did not join the Shaido Aiel? Aviendha didn't figure out Nakomi's status and position in society immediately, which I found strikingly out of character for an Aiel individual.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135016)
The clues to what Nakomi did don't require a name or motive, only that something did or did not happen. The only thing that matter are What Happened and What was the Result.

Finding out WHO and WHY are strictly secondary to determining WHAT happened.

Seeming this point of view, does not even consider, nor apprentice the set-up of HOW the Aiel Clans and People broke apart during and after Rand's confession at the Golden Bowl. WHY and for WHAT purpose did it occurred? Nor does this point of view above, value the importance of WHO a character is.

Literature isn't Statistics, nor Calculus, nor Technical Analysis... it is something 'other'. Feelings, Friendships, and yes Love matters. It's the qualitative, not quantitative.

Going by a WHAT happens set of priorities, devalues WHO has a relationship with WHOM, and WHY.... So, Elayne is pregnant, its a secondary priority WHO caused those giant butterflies in Elayne's mind--going by that type of interpretation. Yet why does Caemlyn have Blue Skies unlike almost all other places in TofM book? Because Rand al'Thor cares for Elayne and he loves her. If Daved Hanlon raped Elayne, and Rand al'Thor never ended up meeting Elayne in tEotW book, would Caemlyn have had Blue Skies by the time TofM book was written? I doubt it.

Motivations matter, as does causation. Changes of WHAT can be meaningless without a narrative to interpret those Changes. Literature has a Narrative. History has a Narrative, too. If you want a list events, that is a Chronology, not a History narrative.

Who, What, Where, When, Why and How are each important to create a story narrative. The process of Becoming is key, as one Professor states:


Quote:

Concentrate on the becoming, not on what it became. That is, what is interesting in narrative is the unfolding of the events. So put your emphasis on development of the events.

Provide dynamism. Choices are paths taken, and paths not taken. Communicate the implications of choice. Let the reader see the implications of the choice.

Source: University of Maryland

Weird Harold 12-11-2010 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 135076)
That's an assumption it was channeling involved, not some other "new Talent"

Well DUH!!!

Svengali Nakomi is a theory that rests on the assumption that Nakomi was a DF using abilities and skills we have already seen demonstrated to interrogate Aviendha and implant instructions and false memories. One of those false memories was a second trip through the ter'angreal that reinforced Aviendha's negative concerns about the Aiel's future.

If there was no channeling involved, then obviously the abilities and skill required for Svengalai Nakomi aren't possible.

However, the theory was crafted to avoid any "New Talents" while still explaining all of the 'oddnesses.'

Glen 12-11-2010 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 134959)
Nakomi lived in a vacuole? Umm... No, thank you.

At least read my post before trying to argue against it.

I specifically trashed the idea of Nakomi having been living in a vacuole. It's just an absurd angle to go with, and is practically unjustified. Short of it being specifically stated in the books or being directly stated by Brandon, it's just absurd to think that this is a reasonable explanation. Not because it's entirely impossible, but because it's unlikely enough that it needs strong evidence to support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 134990)
Let's see here:

A Jenn Aiel survived in Rhuidean (and avoided a couple of centuires of Aiel Wise One and Clan Chief candidates) because of the fog and is only now -- a year or so after the fog was lifted -- wandered into the Waste and just happened to encounter Aviendha and agreew ith all of Aviendha's subconsious concerns about the future.

OR

A strange woman intercepts Aviendha and uses Compulsion (or some other Jedi Mind Trick) to determine what subconsious concerns she might have that could be reinforced and then reinforces them.

I didn't say that Nakomi being a Jenn Aiel is the only possibility, just that it's one possibility that is reasonable.

My concern regarding the idea that she was a forsaken or darkfriend is that I just can't see how what she said would actually caused any sort of problem. What Nakomi said makes sense. While there are discrepancies, I don't see why a forsaken or darkfriend would say those things in the first place, even as a front for some form of compulsion.

The exception to this would be Verin, but I've already addressed why I think the Verin argument also fails the necessary tests. If someone can come up with a more plausible explanation for why the forsaken or darkfriends would want to do what Nakomi did, I might take it a little more seriously.

Weird Harold 12-11-2010 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135084)
I didn't say that Nakomi being a Jenn Aiel is the only possibility, just that it's one possibility that is reasonable.

How many of the oddities does Jenn Nakomi answer? It seems to me that a "reasonable" explanation should answer questions rather than raise new ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135084)
My concern regarding the idea that she was a forsaken or darkfriend is that I just can't see how what she said would actually cause any sort of problem.

To be honest, I can't see any big benefit to the Shadow's cause from just the encounter with Nakomi. It is the potential conflict arising from a false vision of the future and a second trip through the Columns that never really happened that might be of benefit to the Shadow -- Much of the "Chaos" sown by the Shadow seemed similarly pointless at first glance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135084)
What Nakomi said makes sense.

Really? There are alot of horrible ideas about social engineering that sound like they make sense until you really think about them and the possible consequences.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135084)
While there are discrepancies, I don't see why a forsaken or darkfriend would say those things in the first place, even as a front for some form of compulsion.

Without knowing what went on in the timelapses, it is difficult to say what effect the Shadow might hope to achieve. A Compulsion that makes you do something you're already inclined to do anyway should be much more effective -- to get the desired effect, Lanfear, at least, would say or do just about anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135084)
The exception to this would be Verin, but I've already addressed why I think the Verin argument also fails the necessary tests.

I agree, Verin is a most unlikely suspect. If nothing else, she wouldn't need to disguise herself as Aviendha already knew and trusted her.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135084)
If someone can come up with a more plausible explanation for why the forsaken or darkfriends would want to do what Nakomi did, I might take it a little more seriously.

I, too,would like a stronger picture of just what Nakomi was trying to accomplish -- or did accomplish -- but I have a similar problem with all of the other theories; Why was Nakomi there at that time.

The one thing I'm certain of is that Nakomi is NOT some kindly Aiel Grandmother with nothing but good will for Aviendha.

Glen 12-11-2010 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135090)
How many of the oddities does Jenn Nakomi answer? It seems to me that a "reasonable" explanation should answer questions rather than raise new ones.

It answers the most important question of all: Why did Nakomi say what she said? It also answers why she seemed to know a lot about Aiel, yet didn't fit the behaviour of them - basically, she seemed peaceful, yet knowledgeable of the ways of the Aiel. And furthermore, it explains her presence near Rhuidean, and explains certain questions regarding Rhuidean itself.

And while it doesn't explain a number of other issues directly, plausible arguments for those can be provided. I would argue, though, that those issues are lesser ones - the exact reason for, for instance, the amount of coals as observed by Aviendha can be one of many possibilities, including, for instance, another effect of what I think I'll start calling the "Randglow effect" - the same thing making food taste better and the skies become clear in the vicinity of Rand, Elayne, Aviendha, and Min. It could also be due to knowledge held by the Jenn Aiel, as another example - knowledge that might be of use in or after the last battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135090)
To be honest, I can't see any big benefit to the Shadow's cause from just the encounter with Nakomi. It is the potential conflict arising from a false vision of the future and a second trip through the Columns that never really happened that might be of benefit to the Shadow -- Much of the "Chaos" sown by the Shadow seemed similarly pointless at first glance.

While it's an interesting theory, I just can't see that second set of visions being entirely faked. It seems like a remarkably bizarre way to manipulate the situation. I can immediately think of three obvious flaws - the key one is, how would the Forsaken know how the glass pillars work? As we know, the ability to "read" Ter'angreal is quite uncommon (Aviendha being one who has the ability), and it is strongly implied that the glass pillars were made by the Aes Sedai at Rhuidean, or at least modified by them to have a very specific effect. As the Forsaken wouldn't want to risk passing through in order to know what happens, the whole idea relies on the Forsaken learning what it does through a darkfriend clan chief or wise one - not inconceivable, but there's no obvious reason that such a darkfriend would feel it to be important for them to know.

And I really don't see what "chaos" would arise from Aviendha's vision, or at least what chaos would arise that would matter prior to the resealing of the Dark One. Maybe it would cause chaos after the last battle, but that's kind of a pointless, in my view.

Plus, the visions specifically have Aviendha giving birth to quadruplets. The only people who could have known this are Min and the people she's likely to have told (can't be bothered checking to see if she specifically tells anyone when she sees it). It's not something she'd be spreading around, and Aviendha doesn't seem to even be pregnant, yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135090)
Really? There are alot of horrible ideas about social engineering that sound like they make sense until you really think about them and the possible consequences.

I'm not talking about social engineering. What Nakomi essentially said was that for the Aiel to go back to the Waste after the last battle would contradict their own customs of ji'e'toh. Nakomi never says that they should stay in the 'wetlands', she just poses the question of why they would return to the waste.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135090)
Without knowing what went on in the timelapses, it is difficult to say what effect the Shadow might hope to achieve. A Compulsion that makes you do something you're already inclined to do anyway should be much more effective -- to get the desired effect, Lanfear, at least, would say or do just about anything.

Since when have the Forsaken been known to use guiding compulsion? To my knowledge, they all use a more direct method when they use compulsion. Verin is the only compulsion-user that we've seen make use of it as a way to guide, rather than force things.

Meanwhile, the one Forsaken that I could believe might be Nakomi is Lanfear... but this is primarily because of her appearance in Rand's dream. If this was actually a legitimate hint that she's turning against the Shadow, then I could believe that she went to Aviendha and is trying to atone for her actions in some way, thus explaining why she would say what she said...

Actually, looking back over some things, I'm starting to think of something on this topic... I'll elaborate in a new thread or an appropriate existing thread, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135090)
I, too,would like a stronger picture of just what Nakomi was trying to accomplish -- or did accomplish -- but I have a similar problem with all of the other theories; Why was Nakomi there at that time.

And this is one of the elements that none of them can quite explain neatly. But the Jenn Aiel would have reason to remain near Rhuidean until the right time. I actually plan on keeping my eye out for any other supporting evidence of the Jenn Aiel still being around on my next read-through of the series.

None of the other theories can explain how Nakomi came to meet with Aviendha - how did the Forsaken know where to look, for instance?

morat'corlm 12-11-2010 10:31 AM

The Wise One 'last lesson' theory explains that perfectly.

Actually, a Darkfriend Wise One could have tipped off a Forsaken, though I do find the Svengali thing implausible.

Weird Harold 12-11-2010 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135095)
It answers the most important question of all: Why did Nakomi say what she said? ...

And while it doesn't explain a number of other issues directly, plausible arguments for those can be provided.

Therein is the concise statement of why the Svengali Nokomi theory came into being. :D

Every theory answers "the most important question of all." Every theory requires "plausible arguments" to be provided for the other issues.

Svengali Nakomi might not be the correct answer -- it probably isn't, I don't have the best record of being right -- but whatever the right answer is, it will answer ALL of the issues at once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135095)
While it's an interesting theory, I just can't see that second set of visions being entirely faked. It seems like a remarkably bizarre way to manipulate the situation. I can immediately think of three obvious flaws - the key one is, how would the Forsaken know how the glass pillars work?

That would depend on who faked it: the details could and probably DID come from Aviendha rather than the Compulsion. Verin's "Suggestion" weave only provides the desired answer and the victim provides their own motivation, as one example of a n already known mechanism for accomplishing the dirty deed.

The lack of knowledge about how the ter'angreal works is the biggest hint that there is something unrealistic about that second trip. It fits what Aviendha knew about the Columns before she went through them the first time, but it doesn't fit with what the readers know from the Omniscient Narrator viewpoint.

Remember one of the important elements of Svengali Nakomi is that Aviendha's lapses in attention (coals, etc) cover periods of interrogation -- like that seen used by Moggy in Tanchico. The second pass through the columns is consistent with what an interrogation of Aviendha could have revealed: The general outline of the ter'angreal and it's function, Min's viewing of her having four of Rand's children, the kids having something odd about them, Rand's children ruling Andor (and just Andor,) Aviendha's concerns about the future of the Aiel, etc.

I don't see anything in that second pass that could not have been built-up from Aviendha's imagination? I did see a lot of things in that second pass that simply reinforce Aviendha's thoughts before she met with Nakomi. The impossibilities in the second pass -- like her children being born Channeling -- are consistent with Aviendha's rather naive knowledge of the way the world works.

Almost everything about Aviendha's children in that second pass is the next best thing to impossible.

Fraternal Quadruplets just don't happen; Quads are either identical quads or pairs of identical twins because women simply can't release more than two eggs at once except under extraordinary outside influences -- like fertility drugs that force multiple egg releases.

There is a good reason why the Pattern doesn't enable Channeling abilities until puberty or later. (statisticly, Channeling is a secondary sexual characteristic like functional gonads or breasts.) Infants who can Channel would have no self-control or inhibitions, the world could not survive one infant who could Channel, let alone four of them. :D

Etc, Etc.

Linking the two scenes with Aviendha that are filled with oddities and impossibilities makes more sense to me than trying to pretend they aren't related and coming up with two incompatible explanations featuring groups and abilities that have never been seen before.

Especially this close to the end of the series, there is precious little room for explanations that require things we haven't seen before.

Glen 12-12-2010 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135129)
The second pass through the columns is consistent with what an interrogation of Aviendha could have revealed: The general outline of the ter'angreal and it's function, Min's viewing of her having four of Rand's children, the kids having something odd about them, Rand's children ruling Andor (and just Andor,) Aviendha's concerns about the future of the Aiel, etc.

When did Aviendha learn about her quadruplets? As I recall, Min doesn't generally tell people her viewing unless there's good reason, and at the time that Min saw it, Aviendha wasn't pregnant; Min had no reason to tell her, and we never see her say anything.

More than this, though, Min's relationship with Aviendha isn't exactly what one would call "close". So I don't really see how Aviendha could have known of her quadruplets. Beyond this, even if the forsaken could know that it would be quadruplets with something strange about them, I find it difficult to believe that any forsaken would come up with what you're describing as an implausible if not impossible trait.

On the other hand, the pillars' behaviour seems entirely reasonable, to me. They are designed to show a timeline travelling backwards to show key events in the pattern based on ancestors of the person who is passing through. Another ter'angreal not far from the pillars shows many variations on possible futures, to such an extent that Wise Ones often act confidently on lessons learned from their trip through it.

The "new" behaviour of the pillars is somewhat of a blending of the two - it seems like it identifies an issue considered to be relevant to the person passing through, and shows a possible future sequence that addresses the events relating to this concern. Aviendha was concerned about the question of whether the Aiel should return to the waste; the pillars worked off those concerns. Min's viewings prove that there are future events that are certain to occur; is it really implausible that it would be possible to make a ter'angreal that can identify such future events, or in this case, likely future events that can be changed.


Who said that there's no connection? The AoL Aes Sedai that travelled with the Jenn Aiel seem to be the ones that created the pillars and made them operate the way that they do. Jenn Nakomi could have been tasked with making sure that the concern was planted, in order to ensure that the ter'angreal will be switched and used. Remember, the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel had some form of prophecy available to them, in part leading to the Rhuidean Prophecy. They could easily have had more information than that.

Weird Harold 12-12-2010 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135167)
When did Aviendha learn about her quadruplets? As I recall, Min doesn't generally tell people her viewing unless there's good reason, and at the time that Min saw it, Aviendha wasn't pregnant; Min had no reason to tell her, and we never see her say anything.

Almost immediately after having the dual visions about Rand's children (Elayne's and Aviendha's) Min, Aviendha, and Birgitte set off to get drunk to mask the sensations through their respective bonds. I'd be very surprised if the information wasn't shared in an effort to form a bond with each other to compliment the warder bond they share with Rand and Elayne.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135167)
I find it difficult to believe that any forsaken would come up with what you're describing as an implausible if not impossible trait.

What part of "Aviendha's subconscious probably provided the details" didn't you understand.

Even if Min didn't tell her in a drunken bonding session while Elayne got laid, the rings ter'angreal showed her several futures that included her children.

IIRC. she even recalls the multiple futures during one vignette in her supposed second pass.

Svengali Nakomi wouldn't even necessarily have to drag the details out of Aviendha, as long as she can prompt Aviendha's subconscious to provide them as needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135167)
On the other hand, the pillars' behaviour seems entirely reasonable, to me. They are designed to show a timeline travelling backwards to show key events in the pattern based on ancestors of the person who is passing through.

The Columns have never shown "key points in the Pattern," they've shown key moments in the candidate's ancestry that illustrate the history of the Aiel. The memories raised were raised from the candidate's Aiel Blood, not the Pattern -- per RJ, each candidate sees a sequence of history unique to their unique Aiel heritage.

How exactly would a ter'angreal that stimulates Old Blood Memories stimulate Old Aiel Blood memories from blood the candidate does not possess? The Aiel Blood those memories would have been read from doesn't yet exist because, afawk, isn't yet pregnant.

The Three Rings that show multiple futures only show multiple futures for the candidate, but don't show the past, as the White Tower's testing ter'angreal does. With a ter'angreal mere yards away that has already shown Aviendha several alternatives to her future, why would another ter'angreal be needed to show her just one alternative?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glen (Post 135167)
Who said that there's no connection? ... Remember, the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel had some form of prophecy available to them, in part leading to the Rhuidean Prophecy. They could easily have had more information than that.

Yes they could have, but the Jenn Aiel have been extinct for thousands of years -- since sometime before the Trolloc Wars. The problem is keeping a viable cell of Jenn Aiel alive and hidden, for something like 2,000 years, while remaining recognisably Aiel.

Where and how has Jenn Nakomi been hiding that she is still Aiel enough for Aviendha to recognise her as an Aiel? (Even when the Columns showed Rand the first Clan Chiefs sent to Rhuidien the Jenn wore distinctive clothing that weren't Aiel-like.)

Where and How have the Jenn Aiel for her to aculturate with been hiding so that they remain recognisably Aiel yet unknown to the rest of the clans?

Even Felix's Tinker-Chef Nakomi imaginings seems more probable than Jenn Nakomi. If the Jenn Aiel had even gone extinct in the last few centuries, Jenn Aiel might be a viable option, but they've been extinct for far too long.

GonzoTheGreat 12-12-2010 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 135189)
Yes they could have, but the Jenn Aiel have been extinct for thousands of years -- since sometime before the Trolloc Wars. The problem is keeping a viable cell of Jenn Aiel alive and hidden, for something like 2,000 years, while remaining recognisably Aiel.

Worked with Nessie too, didn't it?

Weird Harold 12-12-2010 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 135193)
Worked with Nessie too, didn't it?

Not really. Nessie doesn't have a culture or "national costume" to preserve. She's probably an inbred hemophiliac with no chin, anyway. :p


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:32 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.