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Juan 12-20-2010 02:59 PM

Moridin vs Shaidar Haran
 
So Moridin is Nae'blis and as of TOM it seems like the DO is communicating directly with him (scene with Moridin and Graendal). So Moridin is above everyone else except the DO, unless the DO is kind of using Moridin in a more personal way. Maybe he has a bit of control of him.. Kinda like he inhabits his body. And when you talk to Shaidar Haran it's supposedly as if talking directly to the DO. So, if they were to give orders in direct opposition from each other, who has more authority?

Rand al'Fain 12-20-2010 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 136334)
So Moridin is Nae'blis and as of TOM it seems like the DO is communicating directly with him (scene with Moridin and Graendal). So Moridin is above everyone else except the DO, unless the DO is kind of using Moridin in a more personal way. Maybe he has a bit of control of him.. Kinda like he inhabits his body. And when you talk to Shaidar Haran it's supposedly as if talking directly to the DO. So, if they were to give orders in direct opposition from each other, who has more authority?

The one who wins rock-paper-scissors.

Belazamon 12-20-2010 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain (Post 136349)
The one who wins rock-paper-scissors.

Light-Shadow-Fain?

The hand gestures would probably be more memorable that way. Could end up being a full-contact sport, though.

Weird Harold 12-20-2010 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 136334)
So Moridin is Nae'blis and as of TOM it seems like the DO is communicating directly with him (scene with Moridin and Graendal). So Moridin is above everyone else except the DO, unless the DO is kind of using Moridin in a more personal way. Maybe he has a bit of control of him.. Kinda like he inhabits his body. And when you talk to Shaidar Haran it's supposedly as if talking directly to the DO. So, if they were to give orders in direct opposition from each other, who has more authority?

Iwould rank them:

Shai'tan

The Speaker in Shai'tan's ROV (Shadar Haran)

Nae'Blis/Moridin.

lord Mordeth 12-20-2010 09:06 PM

I really hope SH has a major role in aMoL, because so far, apart from being kind of a cool idea, he's been pretty pointless. Freeing and/or raping female Forsaken appears to be his main purpose, but the series wouldn't really have been worse off without that.

Maybe RJ put him in to try and lure some Goodkind fans over?

subwoofer 12-20-2010 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belazamon (Post 136380)
Light-Shadow-Fain?

The hand gestures would probably be more memorable that way. Could end up being a full-contact sport, though.

...orrrr we could take it to the next level...

Belazamon 12-20-2010 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subwoofer (Post 136393)
...orrrr we could take it to the next level...

With that link, you are now dead to me.

Juan 12-20-2010 11:42 PM

hahaha rock paper scissors? Nah there needs to be an actual conflict and dual between the two that'd be way more fun.

I would think Moridin is above since he is Nae'blis and that kinda puts him above everyone except the DO.... But you could argue that SH is a vessel for the DO.. but you could also argue that Moridin is also a vessel for the DO... So I'm pretty split honestly...

FelixPax 12-21-2010 10:50 AM

A new trinity of the shadows; Graendal's former Ajah is... White
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 136334)
So Moridin is Nae'blis and as of TOM it seems like the DO is communicating directly with him (scene with Moridin and Graendal).

Who's to say the Dark Lord isn't becoming a man?
A man formerly known as Ishamael...
Is now simply Death.


Who is Shaidar Haran?
Death's right hand Myrddraal.

Piss off Shaidar Haran... as Graendal learns in TofM book...
One angers a new Trinity of the Shadows:
Dark Lord, Moridin, Shaidar Haran.


One should have thought Graendal, as a likely former member of the White Ajah... would have figured this out... before her failure against Perrin. ;)

Two quotations off-hand come to mind, related to hints of Graendal's White Ajah past:

Quote:

Strangely, the Whites all worn glossy Black ribbons, yet it must have been an Ajah custom, for it garnered no frowns or stares from the other sisters.

New Spring: The Novel -- Chapter 14 "Changes" -- Moiraine point of view; at Talma's bier funeral
Quote:

She closed the wood-bound copy of Alight in the Snow in her hands and stood up, wearing a dress of thin black silk with ribbons of streith running down it.

Towers of Midnight -- Chapter 5 "Writings" -- Graendal point of view; describing herself
Question is, what dominate color is Graendal's streith ribbons exactly?

My guess is black. :cool:

In essence, Graendal has given her self a penance--banished to a distance Sea Folk Island near or on the equator, to live a cave without sunlight.

GonzoTheGreat 12-21-2010 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 136477)
Question is, what dominate color is Graendal's streith ribbons exactly?

My guess is black. :cool:

The color would depend on her mood; that's what streith is for, isn't it?

Juan 12-21-2010 02:39 PM

But didn't the Ajahs (capital A) come about as the AS were organizing themselves again and forming the White Tower? I'm pretty sure they didn't exist during the Age of Legends...

FelixPax 12-21-2010 06:12 PM

On Graendal's Ajahs'
 
True, Gonzo regarding Streith:

Quote:

Streith was a shimmering material, usually white, that changed color and opacity to match the mood of the wearer.

Source: World of Robert Jordan, e.g the "Big White Book"
Graendal at times, seems similar to Sarene Nemdahl's character... each sees 'passion' in a relatively unique sense. Graendal sees it as a form of a disguise, to use for public consumption... while Sarene Nemdahl's secret writing poetry of his warder, yet feels the need to hide her 'passions' to fit into the preconceptions of the White Ajah.

By becoming something other than what she once was, Graendal... ironically, sought to distance herself from her own past. A woman who limited her passions, to a woman who become in public all but driven by her passions. Yes, Graendal own propaganda as aided the shaping of the very image, of who she is perceived as by others.

Why? Perhaps Graendal wants individuals to take her for less than she truly is? If she's seen as a pleasure-seeker full of passions, are she nearest competitors even going to be take her seriously?

Aran'gar fell for Graendal's propaganda, I'd sure say.
Graendal knew Aran'gar better than he thought she did... who ended up dying?
Aran'gar.


Back to the Streith material idea, as a clue for Graendal's past associations, when Aran'gar first offered up the 'promise' of an alliance with Graendal back in KoD, Chapter 3; what color did her Streith change into?

Quote:

The streith went black as midnight in Larcheen, and spots of color appeared on Graendal's creamy cheeks. Her eyes became blue ice. But her words were at odds with her face, and her gown faded to near transparency as she spoke, slowly sounding thoughtful.


Knife of Dreams, Chapter 3 "At the Gardens" -- Aran'gar point of view, with Graendal being physically described after an alliance offer
Only the White Ajah uses 'Black Ribbons' for funerals, while every other Ajah uses 'White Ribbons' according Moiraine point of view (N.S. book)


Alternatively, if those Ribbons are White in color... perhaps Graendal was of a Yellow Ajah background previously? Why that Ajah? Her success at being a Healer in the Age of Legends, as one reason.


Or were Ajahs once more flexible about their memberships? Less exclusive? Perhaps, one could have entered into every single Ajah available during AoE?

Maybe Leane's switching of Ajahs from Blue to Green was not so unusual during the AoE?


Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 136554)
But didn't the Ajahs (capital A) come about as the AS were organizing themselves again and forming the White Tower? I'm pretty sure they didn't exist during the Age of Legends...

If so, why when does Egwene al'Vere feel as if her place is with the Green Ajah? Her very soul?

We know from Alviarin's point of view, that Mesaana claimed the Ajahs existed in her own time during the Age of Legends.


Prior habits and associations, do not complete disappear immediately as one member of the Black Ajah goes on to claim:
Quote:

They had been Browns. Sometimes it was difficult to remember they no longer were, or that she herself was no longer a Red. So much of what had marked them clearly as members of their old Ajahs remained even now that they were openly pledged to the Black. Take the two former Greens. Coppery-skinned, swan-necked Jeaine Caide wore the thinnest, most clinging silk dresses she could find—white, today—and laughed that the gowns would have to do, since there was nothing available in Tarabon to catch a man’s eye. Jeaine was from Arad Doman; Domani women were infamous for their scandalous clothes. Asne Zeramene, with her dark, tilted eyes and bold nose, looked almost demure in pale gray, plainly cut and high-necked, but Liandrin had heard her regret leaving her Warders behind more than once. And as for Rianna Andomeran . . . Black hair with a stark white streak above her left ear framed a face with the cold, arrogant certainty only a White could assume.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 38 "Hidden Faces" - Asne point of view
I do wonder how the various Ajahs operated in the Second Age or Age of Legends. Did the Ajah's work more like Wise One's among the Aiel Clans did?

GonzoTheGreat 12-22-2010 04:58 AM

Felix, in your theories on Graendal's Ajah, you might want to remember that the whole "seven Ajahs" thing is something that only came into being at the end of the Breaking, long after all AoL AS had died. In the period when Graendal was AS, there were far more Ajahs, and they were far less fixed in membership and goals:
Quote:

Originally Posted by BWB, Chapter 9, Formation of the White Tower
Almost nothing is known about the organization of Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends, but it is generally accepted that ajah played an important part, though apparently they were nothing like the present-day Ajah. In the surviving twenty-three consecutive pages of a dictionary from circa 50 AB, ajah, in the Old Tongue, is defined as “an informal and temporary group of people gathered together for a common purpose or goal, or by a common set of beliefs.” In thirty-one pages all in the same hand, located in the Royal Library in Cairhien, which appear to be random survivors of a larger manuscript reliably dated from the same period, the organization of Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, or perhaps their manner of functioning, is described as “a vast sea of ajah (note: word deliberately left untranslated), all constantly shrinking, growing, dividing, combining, melting away only to be reborn in some new guise and begin the process once more.” In the first centuries after the Breaking, the nature of ajah or Ajah changed. We cannot be sure exactly when the change occurred, but another dictionary (circa 200 AB; 219 surviving random pages) defines Ajah as “a sisterhood of Aes Sedai,” and no lowercase form is listed.


metaphor 12-23-2010 12:38 PM

I imagine SA to be the actual avatar of the DO. As in, a piece of the DO's consciousness that walks around inside the world.
While the Nae'blis is the one that, along with the Dragon holds the key for the victory of the DO.

Madgod 12-23-2010 07:04 PM

I always thought that Shaidar Haran was the avatar of the DO, while Elan as Nae'blis was the second-in-command of team dark. With that interpertation, Saidar Haran would "win" in a competition of dueling orders.

Marie Curie 7 12-23-2010 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metaphor (Post 136877)
I imagine SA to be the actual avatar of the DO. As in, a piece of the DO's consciousness that walks around inside the world.
While the Nae'blis is the one that, along with the Dragon holds the key for the victory of the DO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Madgod (Post 136942)
I always thought that Shaidar Haran was the avatar of the DO, while Elan as Nae'blis was the second-in-command of team dark. With that interpertation, Saidar Haran would "win" in a competition of dueling orders.

Sorry, not really.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Winespringbrother reporting

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?
Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.
WinespringBrother: Is it twenty-four/seven, or just part time.
Jordan: Twenty-four/seven.
WinespringBrother: Ohh.
Harriet: Shaidar Haran has another life in the suburbs.
WinespringBrother: Yeah, he has two and half little Fades running around.
Harriet: He has to go home for the weekend to cut the grass. I don't think so.


Mik 01-06-2011 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 136334)
So Moridin is Nae'blis and as of TOM it seems like the DO is communicating directly with him (scene with Moridin and Graendal). So Moridin is above everyone else except the DO, unless the DO is kind of using Moridin in a more personal way. Maybe he has a bit of control of him.. Kinda like he inhabits his body. And when you talk to Shaidar Haran it's supposedly as if talking directly to the DO. So, if they were to give orders in direct opposition from each other, who has more authority?

To me, it's like asking who has more authority; Luc or Isam?
They both are; Slayer.
They are the same being.

I think it's the same for Ishamael, who was -perfected- after he died in TDR.

Slayer was an experimented on how to make a 24/10 creature that held both a dead & living soul; it was a stepping stone (and RJ's trick up the sleeve) to binding a neverborn with a human being.

Shai'tan incorperated himself in Moridin. (it's why the name "Death" is so fitting and why Moridin thinks to himself about too few LIVING people who remember Sha'rah; he is rightfully discounting himself among those living)

Isam (living soul/body/mind) is to Luc (dead soul/body/mind) in the Slayer entity
as
Moridin (corrupted soul/body/mind) is to Shaidar Haran (neverborn soul/body/mind) in the Nae'blis entity

Slayer can switch mind & body whenever he enters or exits TAR. I think the Nae'bliss (literally just a -half(man)- step below Shai'tan) can do so when entering and exiting a Vacuole.

Moridin & Shaidar Haran hold exactly the same authority because -much like Slayer- they both are.

Juan 01-07-2011 04:57 PM

Except for the fact the neither Moridin nor Shaidar Haran are the DO.

Moridin when it comes down to it, is still Moridin.

And Shaidar HAran when it comes to it, is still Shaidar Haran.

The DO simply uses them as vessels. Does that mean he's using them 100% of the time at 100% capacity? No. We've clearly seen Moridin is still mostly Ishamael. And we know little about Shaidar Haran, but I'd assume he's still Shaidar Haran. Hence why RJ didn't really call him an avatar and he explained why. Read his response in Marie Curie's post. She provided that quote.

Perhaps you could say if the DO is using Moridin as a vessel to communicate directly through him (call it being possessed or whatever you want), and the DO is also using SH, then clearly in that scenario Moridin and SH wouldn't contradict because it is the DO himself speaking through them. Think of Moridin and SH as a phone in that case. They're just there to pass on the orders.

But how about when the DO is NOT directly speaking through Moridin and Shaidar Haran? Meaning it's Moridin himself, not the DO, and SH himself, not the DO giving orders that oppose each other. That's the tricky part.

Weird Harold 01-07-2011 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 138393)
...And we know little about Shaidar Haran, but I'd assume he's still Shaidar Haran. Hence why RJ didn't really call him an avatar and he explained why. Read his response in Marie Curie's post. She provided that quote. ...

Perhaps you should read the whole quote: (I bolded a different section for you)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ(as quoted by Marie Curie
DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Winespringbrother reporting
  • WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?
  • Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.
  • WinespringBrother: Is it twenty-four/seven, or just part time.
  • Jordan: Twenty-four/seven.
  • WinespringBrother: Ohh.
  • Harriet: Shaidar Haran has another life in the suburbs.
  • WinespringBrother: Yeah, he has two and half little Fades running around.
  • Harriet: He has to go home for the weekend to cut the grass. I don't think so.

When Shadar Haran speaks, he speaks with the DO's voice and when he acts, it is because the DO's hand up his butt made him act -- Shadar Haran has no more independent will than a sock puppet does.

Juan 01-07-2011 06:16 PM

You could also read that as the DO has the ability to project himself into Shaidar Haran 24/7 aka whenever he wants, but that doesn't necessarily say whether he actually does. We don't know much about the nature of the DO and I'm not sure he has the ability to always be using Shaidar and be able to multi-task and do other things at the same time. For example, using Shaidar Haran 24/7 and then Moridin at some parts, and then be in his own little dark cell which is most detectable at Shayol Ghul, plotting and scheming for whatever, etc., etc. Especially considering the fact he's in a prison. Even if he did have that ability, I'd imagine he'd be limited in this area by his prison.

Unless of course Shaidar Haran is simply inactive while the DO does other things. Kinda like a computer on standby. Or a turned-off computer possibly. But I'm not sure a living creature can be put on stand-by. And we don't really have explicit and detailed info as to this. Which is why I'm inclined to believe that Shaidar Haran can act on his own. The way I see it is that Shaidar Haran is possessed and the DO can act through him and take control of his mind. So it's essentially the DO's mind, but there is still a bit of Shaidar Haran in the back somewhere.


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