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Seth Baker 03-10-2011 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdsaf3 (Post 144594)
Back on topic (somewhat): does anyone care to propose a viable scenario where Egwene could still Rand? Rand has been shown to be able to shield Egwene and Elayne together without breaking a sweat, and that was before he evolved to the current channeling beast that he is. Unless Egwene had a circle of the 13 most powerful female channelers (because how is she going to get a male to increase the size of the circle?), I don't see it happening. Not to mention that a few of the most powerful female channelers (Nyneave, Alivia) won't help.

Fair point. I'm not sure how much it was figurative when Egwene thought that she wasn't sure 13 could hold Rand when he went to Tar Valon.

Jonai 03-10-2011 03:16 PM

Thanks for the laughs Felix and Seth. Considering Nynaeve pictures thorns when she opens herself to saidar, Luca and her will probably marry after Lan's death. ;)

:re Egwene stilling: she could probably hold enough saidar to sever Rand with the Tower's bone rod sa'angreal. Assuming he's unaided.

fdsaf3 03-10-2011 05:18 PM

I am by no means an expert in the field of Power power (ha ha), but Rand is at male Forsaken strength in terms of his Power capability. Alivia, the strongest female channeler, is in that same league. Nynaeve is noticeably weaker in the Power than Alivia, and Egwene is a step down from Nynaeve.

There's a lot I admit to not knowing about how the Power works (i.e. whether channeling through a sa'angerel is multiplicative of an individual's strength or additive). I think it's a matter of speculation on whether he could be stilled until more explicit rules for strength are laid down. Still a fun thought exercise though.

skaywalker 03-11-2011 03:22 AM

Nynaeve is strong enough to be evenly match with a Forsaken (eg - Moghedien) and with her angreal and ter'angreal I think she will be one tough opponent.

And I think Eggy is not a "step down" from her, I think there are at least 3-4 steps

Terez 03-11-2011 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skaywalker (Post 144686)
Nynaeve is strong enough to be evenly match with a Forsaken (eg - Moghedien) and with her angreal and ter'angreal I think she will be one tough opponent.

And I think Eggy is not a "step down" from her, I think there are at least 3-4 steps

I don't believe we know of anyone in between them. Moghedien was the weakest of the Forsaken in the Power, and Nynaeve matched her in TSR. Cadsuane is a step below the supergirls (Elayne, Egwene, Aviendha), and Moiraine-Siuan-Elaida-Romanda-Lelaine were next before stilling and 'Finn power-sucking. I think that Nicola was on that level also, or maybe Cadsuane's level. Alivia and Talaan are a notch above Nynaeve, and I think Sharina and Lanfear are only one notch above that. Graendal and Semirhage are probably around the same level as Alivia and Talaan, and Mesaana is probably about equal to Moghedien. Perhaps there are two notches between Nynaeve and the top, but I can't recall anything that makes it clear either way. In any case, there are no notches between the supergirls and Nynaeve. On the 21-point scale, it probably goes like this:

21 - Lanfear and Sharina
20 - Alivia and Talaan (Graendal and Semirhage)
19 - Nynaeve (Moghedien and Mesaana)
18 - Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Metarra
17 - Cadsuane, Nicola?
16 - Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine
15 - Leane, Kiruna, Bera

There might be another level between Nynaeve and Sharina, and Nynaeve might have actually moved up the scale? The comparisons to Moghedien and Mesaana were based upon actual strength (she was as strong as Moghedien in TSR, and probably stronger than Mesaana in TOM according to Brandon), but the comparison between Nynaeve and Talaan and Sharina is based on potential. Also guessing on Graendal's and Semirhage's placements. Probably the bottom 5-7 or so levels aren't even strong enough to test for the shawl - RJ said 62.5% of the bell curve, whatever that happens to amount to (most channelers are in the middle somewhere).

1Powerslave 03-11-2011 07:02 AM

An example of a bell curve:
http://askville.amazon.com/SimilarQu...iots+outnumber

If channelers strength is indeed distributed as the bell curve then there would be just as many channelers born with a tiny ability like Morgase (1 on the 21-scale, leftmost part of the curve) than an ability with strength of 21 on the scale (rightmost part of the curve).

GonzoTheGreat 03-11-2011 07:42 AM

It is probably only half a bell, or something like that. Or maybe there are lots of people with a negative ability for channeling. I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader how one would measure that.

David Selig 03-11-2011 09:16 AM

There were two Aiel Wise Ones present at Elayne - Avi's first-sister ceremony, who were stronger in the Power than Elayne, but weaker than Nynaeve.

Quote:

WH Prologue, Elayne PoV

Not like two others in the room she recognized, bony Tamela with her angular face and Viendre, a beautiful, blue-eyed eagle. Both were stronger in the Power than she, stronger than any sister she had met save Nynaeve.
IIRC, they are never mentioned again after that scene, which is a bit weird given their strength.

*edit* I now realised that this phrasing above can mean those two WO are equal to Nynaeve in the Power, it's just that in every saidar strenght ranking I usually see them on a level or two below.

Jonai 03-11-2011 02:52 PM

If there is only one level between Nynaeve and the other supergirls its a pretty staggering level. I think it more likely that RJ just didn't make many female channelers in the intervening space so as to present a gap to forsaken strength. YOu've got Egwene's comments in tSR to go bye and then of course Elayne's comments and thoughts through out their later adventuring days. Nothing is definite of course, but it seems more substantial than say, Moiraine to Cadsuane, or Cadsuane to Egwene. Most of are so called evidence is supposition though. You've got Moggy (Moggy shall rise again!) bringing up the bottom rung of forsaken strength. Graendal thinks to herself that in the aol, that male channelers stronger than herself were uncommon, and females rare indeed. Cyndane is stronger than Granny and Lanfear stronger than Cyndane, though its impossible to determine if that dropped her a whole level. Keep in mind also that the top female rung is a couple rungs down from the top male rung. And of course, even just angreal, can easily double the amount of the Power you can hold.

Terez 03-12-2011 08:41 AM

The thing about the levels is that there are degrees within the level. When Egwene says that Bode nearly matches her own potential, that means she's probably on the same level on the 21-point scale, not the level below as one might think.

There probably should be a level between Lanfear and Graendal, though. I'd reasoned that out before, but then I forgot about it. So...

21 - Lanfear and Sharina
20 - Cyndane, Alivia, and Talaan
19 - Nynaeve (Graendal and Semirhage)
18 - Moghedien and Mesaana
17 - Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Metarra
16 - Cadsuane, Nicola?
15 - Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine
14 - Leane, Kiruna, Bera

Still guessing, though. It could be that the Supergirls are even with Moghedien and Mesaana by now.

finnssss 03-12-2011 03:49 PM

Linda has a pretty in depth list going over at The 13th...
http://13depository.blogspot.com/200...h-ranking.html

Ariectus 03-13-2011 11:10 PM

I for one appreciate felix's posts, they might get wild and stretch believability really far, but they're fun and thoughtful.

Also sometimes they make me think, and a small piece of one of his posts on the second page really made my eyes open, things sort of slid into place in my head and started glowing

Mat marrying Elayne. Its so far-fetched, but so plausable. Ever since the beginning its been a given that she is Rands, but it hasn't ever really felt real to me, it was just something convenient and mildly interesting in the plot, but all throughout the series I've been thinking, 'man, Mat thinks too much about his best bud's girl, and wow Elayne shouldn't think that stuff about Mat, she's Rands gal!' Especially in this last book, Brandon put some of those little bits in, between Mat and Elayne.

But now it seems so obvious that when Rands Ta'veren influence is gone, either from him biting it or because the last battle is done and he's no longer needed, there is absolutely no reason Elayne would feel so much love for him, he just needed Andor securely in his pocket, and theres literally no other way he could have that without the undying love of their queen, Andor doesn't back down from threats, and wouldn't just jump on the 'oh but the prophesies say..' bandwagon, and it would've probably messed up Rands don't be mean to girls thing anyways.

But all of Mat and Elaynes interactions seem highly suspect to me now, and plotwise it could keep the seanchan problem under better contol. I wish I had some examples from the text to use here but I don't have the time to go searching, so this is all from memory. I'm sure you guys can find some to back me up or shoot me down :)

I might have to eat my foot on this one, but I had one of those thought avalanches where everything fits, like the end of really good mysteries, so I felt like sharing, lol. Also sorry I'm off topic for this thread, I haven't even read page 3, just jumped to reply while my brain was buzzing

ShadowbaneX 03-13-2011 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 144784)
The thing about the levels is that there are degrees within the level. When Egwene says that Bode nearly matches her own potential, that means she's probably on the same level on the 21-point scale, not the level below as one might think.

There probably should be a level between Lanfear and Graendal, though. I'd reasoned that out before, but then I forgot about it. So...

21 - Lanfear and Sharina
20 - Cyndane, Alivia, and Talaan
19 - Nynaeve (Graendal and Semirhage)
18 - Moghedien and Mesaana
17 - Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha, Metarra
16 - Cadsuane, Nicola?
15 - Moiraine, Siuan, Elaida, Romanda, Lelaine
14 - Leane, Kiruna, Bera

Still guessing, though. It could be that the Supergirls are even with Moghedien and Mesaana by now.

IIRC (and this is just from memory, if you know of a specific entry where it's listed I'd like to see if), yes, channeling is done on the 21-level scale, but I believe that there are very few (perhaps even none at all) women that hit the 21 level...that's just Rand & Ishy I believe. Lanfear is at 20, Moggy & Nynaeve are at 16 with the rest of the Forsaken in between.

I think Elayne & Egwene are 15s, Cadsuane is 14 and Moiraine and Leane were 13s before being stilled and Healed.

finnssss 03-14-2011 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX (Post 144853)
IIRC (and this is just from memory, if you know of a specific entry where it's listed I'd like to see if), yes, channeling is done on the 21-level scale, but I believe that there are very few (perhaps even none at all) women that hit the 21 level...that's just Rand & Ishy I believe. Lanfear is at 20, Moggy & Nynaeve are at 16 with the rest of the Forsaken in between.

I think Elayne & Egwene are 15s, Cadsuane is 14 and Moiraine and Leane were 13s before being stilled and Healed.

Men go higher than 21 actually, only the women stop at 21 and Lanfear is widely believed to be the only woman to reach 21.

Quote:

Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels.

Rahvin571 03-14-2011 02:50 PM

Finnssss' link is the one I always go to when thinking about channeler strengths. It's very comprehensive.

Terez 03-14-2011 06:15 PM

Actually, RJ said men were on a separate scale altogether, with something like a 5-level gap between the top women and the top men. And it's pretty widely believed that Sharina will match Lanfear when she reaches her full potential.

Linda's list has some conjecture in it too, so I don't use it as a source. We don't have a lot of hard information about strength comparisons.

fdsaf3 03-16-2011 05:58 PM

Also, it's important to note that increases in the scale (i.e. 11 to 12 and 19 to 20) do not have the same weight. The scale is exponential: jumping from 19 to 20 is a huge jump in power, whereas the increase from 11 to 12 is more modest. If needed, I can dig through the RJ quotes to dig up the relevant information for this. Or you could just take my word. :)

If I was responsible for getting this conversation sidetracked, I am sorry. I was merely trying to point out that I didn't see a viable scenario where Rand could be gentled considering his raw strength in the Power and what we have seen him do before, let alone his growing affinity for channeling as seen in Towers. That's all I was really trying to say.

Terez 03-16-2011 07:54 PM

RJ didn't say the scale was logarithmic; he only said that the distribution is on a bell curve, meaning there are fewer people occupying the outside ranks.

Grig 03-17-2011 01:13 PM

Is there a reason Alivia is being ranked on a tier below Lanfear? Cyndane straight out says that Alivia is stronger than she was pre-*finn as Lanfear, as disbelieving as she is of the fact.

Quote:

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too
Bold mine. The angreal was in addition to the Alivia > Lanfear comparison. Or has there been an author's note that that portion of WH was written in error?

Terez 03-17-2011 01:34 PM

The angreal was not in addition (Lanfear has one, and so does Alivia). When Lanfear realized that Alivia's strength was impossible, she realized she must have an angreal. Unlike Sharina, there has been no talk of Alivia being as strong as it is possible to be, so we assume she isn't.


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