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Seth Baker 03-02-2011 06:00 PM

The Dragon Reborn 27 - AMoL Foreshadowing Discussion
 
In case you missed it, @BrandSanderson dropped a small bombshell on us on Twitter today.

"Wow. TDR 27 has a cool little foreshadowing for the end of AMOL that I'd never noticed before. #wotrr"

Twitter is blowing up about it. A few ideas are being floated. Here's a list (non-exclusive) of some, in no particular order. Some are mine, others are not.

-Egwene/Lanfear/Callandor/Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene meets Lanfear again? Lanfear gets her hands on Callandor? Callandor in Tel'aran'rhiod? Lots of theories about this particular combination of events.
-Egwene thinks that the only way to help Rand would be to gentle him.
-Verin comes into the kitchens. Maybe she stashed the Horn with Laras?
-Egwene thinks that Rand won't be for Elayne, at least not in marriage.
-Maybe he meant foreshadowing the end of Towers of Midnight, and this was a typo? The chapter does reference Verin being Black Ajah.

What do you think?

Chapter 27: http://bit.ly/hqc93D

Tamyrlin 03-02-2011 06:35 PM

A Small Foreshadowing
 
I know I posed some significant plot threads when originally seeing Brandon's tweet, but I doubt he would have broken something as big as Lanfear/Callandor regarding the end of the final book in the series. While Brandon is a bit chatty, that would be pretty damn significant. So, I recommend we look at something that wouldn't be so big, that even when we read it we wouldn't be disappointed that he broke the news early.

I like Verin's "have you found anything?" [...] "well keep looking" as a candidate. Potentially revealing another Black Ajah

Elayne discussing having three or four warders and marrying one, which Egwene thinks would be good if it were a commoner and not the Dragon Reborn. Foreshadowing a potential real marriage to Rand at the very end, assuming he lives, Tolkien-esque.

Another is Egwene seeing Rand smoking a pipe of tabac.

nameless 03-02-2011 07:00 PM

Verin's "have you found anything? Well, keep looking" is the most likely one I can think of. Egwene chalks it up to Verin being easily distractable, but we know that she's just putting on an act when she pretends to be the absent-minded professor and isn't likely to have let anything slip by mistake. Maybe there's something to find in the kitchens? There have been some theories floating around that Laras is the one hiding the Horn.

Terez 03-02-2011 07:14 PM

I do like the Laras theory. If for no other reason than that it's a shame she never met Mat when he was in the Tower. She would have loved him, as he would of course have reminded her of her days as a lively girl.

Weird Harold 03-02-2011 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 143842)
Another is Egwene seeing Rand smoking a pipe of tabac.

I don't see much foreshadowing in Egwene's visit to Rand's Dream campsite, but it might tie into Min's Viewing of two bodies and a smoking pipe?

The only potential foreshadowing I see is Silvie's comment, "What might a Forsaken give to hold Callandor?"

hinkel 03-02-2011 10:40 PM

narrowing the field
 
Given that Brandon posted his teaser between two tweets concerning events in the chapter we can pinpoint, it stands to reason that the foreshadowing occurred between those moments.

The tweet occurring prior to the teaser was about Eggy and her romantic feelings towards Rand and Galad as she's getting ready to test out the ring.

The tweet that follows is about the Supergirls first reaction to the BA in Tear being the desire to go after them.

Therefore, I don't think it's anything about Verin's comments or activities in the kitchens. It's almost certainly contained within the trip to T'A'R.

After a quick read through the relevant pages, the things that stand out to me are Eggy's thoughts about gentling Rand, her never killing him, Rand's fiery eyes, or something about the dream world being no less real for being a dream.

Seth Baker 03-03-2011 01:20 AM

I agree with your deduction. There are a few other things that happen in T'A'R that are worth considering, but I think you're right.

Rand al'Fain 03-03-2011 04:06 AM

From what I've been reading, both here and in the books, it looks to me that Eggy is starting to consider gentling Rand. Especially the way she was going in TOM? Yeah, I wouldn't put it past her to have that as a back-up plan at least.

GonzoTheGreat 03-03-2011 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TDR, Chapter 27
A whirring sound, and she jumped before she recognised a cricket

Obviously, Jiminy Cricket is going to save the day, by startling Shai'tan (Egwene's alter ego) at a crucial moment.

Seriously, it more likely has something to do with Lanfear. She gives quite a few interesting hints there, any one of which might be it.
"Even the Shadow can't take being called a fool."
"What wouldn't one of the Forsaken give, to hold Callandor?"

rdmaxwell 03-03-2011 04:35 PM

Silvie's Comment
 
I know Silvie=Lanfear, but what about her comment to Egwene?

"You know poor old Silvie, my Lady. Served your family faithfully all these years. Does this old face still frighten you? Don't let it, my Lady. It serves me, when I need it, as good as a prettier."

Somehow "Silvie" has been "serving" Egwene's "family" for a long time. That might come into play at Shayol Ghul.

nameless 03-03-2011 05:47 PM

I never thought to wonder before, but why is Perrin chaining himself to a post? Not just any post, but a "thick pillar of rough-cut, black stone," which is hardly the regular decor for the interior of an inn. Previously when I've read that passage I thought the point of it was to reiterate the connection between Perrin and his wolf dreams and Egwene's TAR training, since tDR is when those story lines first started to be developed, but now I wonder if it's meant to foreshadow some sort of connection between Perrin and the Black Tower. He's planning to go there to investigate the second Dreamspike soon, and he was one of the first characters to start treating the Asha'man like human beings.

Terez 03-03-2011 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 143971)
I never thought to wonder before, but why is Perrin chaining himself to a post? Not just any post, but a "thick pillar of rough-cut, black stone," which is hardly the regular decor for the interior of an inn.

He thinks of himself as becoming a dangerous wolf, so he has chained himself to the post as you would chain up an attack dog to keep it from biting visitors. The post might be described that way just to emphasize its strength (perhaps because Perrin has broken posts in his dreams before).

Seth Baker 03-04-2011 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain (Post 143876)
From what I've been reading, both here and in the books, it looks to me that Eggy is starting to consider gentling Rand. Especially the way she was going in TOM? Yeah, I wouldn't put it past her to have that as a back-up plan at least.

I don't think she's considering it yet. I also doubt that this is the "cool little foreshadowing." That's kind of a big one. She's frustrated by Rand; she's scared by what he wants to do, but she's not a fool. Gentling the Dragon Reborn before the Last Battle - everyone knows what that would mean.

Terez 03-04-2011 01:30 AM

I think she would kill him before she would gentle him.

GonzoTheGreat 03-04-2011 04:44 AM

Yeah, he might not like being gentled, and Nynaeve would Heal him again anyway. So then there would be an angry Dragon roaming around. I think that Egwene is not stupid enough to risk that, but I am not entirely sure.

rdmaxwell 03-04-2011 11:54 AM

Maybe Egwene is going to stick her head in a bear's mouth...Twice.

Once Luca's show arrives...

Juan 03-04-2011 02:00 PM

The almighty Amyrlin would never do such a thing. :rolleyes:

Rand al'Fain 03-07-2011 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juan (Post 144078)
The almighty Amyrlin would never do such a thing. :rolleyes:

And the ever wise Queen of Andor would never let herself get kidna-uh, tricked into- crap, lured into a-dammit!

Okay, whose idea was it to put a blonde on one of the most powerful thrones!?

GonzoTheGreat 03-07-2011 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain (Post 144233)
Okay, whose idea was it to put a blonde on one of the most powerful thrones!?

That would be young master al'Thor, now, wouldn't it?

Rand al'Fain 03-07-2011 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 144240)
That would be young master al'Thor, now, wouldn't it?

I was going to say the other Lords and Ladies who threw their vote in with her lot.

FelixPax 03-07-2011 05:20 PM

Mierin's redbird; Nynaeve's Dream within a Dream; Lan's soul lives forever
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 143839)
What do you think?

Chapter 27: http://bit.ly/hqc93D


Some possibilities include:

Mierin was the redbird, who flashed crimson colors in the TAR to Egwene. Mierin learns that Egwene will not kill nor gentle Rand al'Thor.
Quote:

She took another long breath to calm herself. “The only way to help him is to gentle him,” she muttered. “As well go ahead and kill him.” Her stomach twisted and knotted. “I’ll never do that. Never!”

A redbird had perched on a cloudberry bush nearby, crest lifting as it tilted its head to watch her cautiously. She addressed the bird. “Well, I am not helping anything standing here talking to myself, am I? Or talking to you, either.”

The redbird took wing as she stepped toward the bush. It was still a flash of crimson as she took the next step, vanished into a thicket she took a third.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 27 'Tel'aran'rhiod' -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with a redbird/Mierin


@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Did Mierin 'pull' Egwene's Dream, to save her from a certain death? Rand al'Thor was going to killing her. #wot

@BrandSanderson TDR 27: Which implies the Wise One's belief that the Shadow's Chosen 'only' used Dream pulling for Evil purposes is wrong.

Quote:

She stopped and fished the stone ring on its cord out of the front of her dress. Why was it not changing? Everything had changed so fast up till now that she could hardly catch her breath. Why not now? Unless there was some answer right here? She looked around uncertainly. The wildflowers taunted her, and the larksong mocked her. This place seemed too much of her own making.

Determined, she tightened her hand around the ter’angreal. “Take me where I need to be.” She shut her eyes and concentrated on the ring. It was stone, after all; Earth should give her some feeling for it. “Do it. Take me where I need to be.” Once again she embraced saidar, fed a trickle of the One Power into the ring. She knew it did not need any flow of Power directed at it to work, and she did not try to do anything to it. Only to give it more of the Power to use. “Take me to where I can find an answer. I need to know what the Black Ajah wants. Take me to the answer.”

“Well, you’ve found your way at last, child. All sorts of answers here.”

Egwene’s eyes snapped open. She stood in a great hall, its vast domed ceiling supported by a forest of massive redstone columns. And hanging in midair was a sword of crystal, gleaming and sparkling as it slowly revolved. She was not certain, but she thought it might be the sword Rand had been reaching for in that dream. That other dream. This all felt so real, she had to keep reminding herself it was a dream, too.

An old woman stepped out of the shadows of the column, bent and hobbling with a stick. Ugly did not begin to describe her. She had a bony, pointed chin, an even bonier, sharper nose, and it seemed there were more warts growing hairs on her face than there was face.

“Who are you?” Egwene said. The only people she had seen so far in Tel’aran’rhiod were those she already knew, but she did not think she could have forgotten this poor old woman.

“Just poor old Silvie, my Lady,” the old woman cackled. At the same time she managed a stoop that might have been meant for a curtsy, or possibly a cringe. “You know poor old Silvie, my Lady. Served your family faithfully all these years. Does this old face still frighten you? Don’t let it, my Lady. It serves me, when I need it, as good as a prettier.”

“Of course, it does,” Egwene said. “It’s a strong face. A good face.” She hoped the woman believed it. Whoever this Silvie was, she seemed to think she knew Egwene. Perhaps she knew answers, too. “Silvie, you said something about finding answers here.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 27 'Tel'aran'rhiod' -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Silvie/Mierin
Mierin pulled Egwene into her Dream twice. First by saving Egwene's life from Rand. Second, by taking Egwene to see and learn about Callandor.


Pulling a person into a Dream is not always Evil, the four Wise Ones Dreamwalkers were incorrect. Mierin did not harm Egwene al'Vere at all, in fact she saved her life from both Rand & Be'lal.




Separately there is a connection between TDR 27 which Brandon Sanderson mentioned in his tweet and tEotW Ch. 37 “The Long Chase”: Dreaming.


@BrandSanderson Who's point of view saw this foreshadowing event? "The hand on her arm appeared to come out of thin air." (Nynaeve!)
Foreshadowing Lan's return to life right before Nynaeve's eyes in AMoL book.
@BrandSanderson I've always been surprised by how much information RJ alluded to:"Abruptly Nynaeve was jerked from memory back to the night"



What big hint is find within TDR 27 in terms of AMoL storylines?

Nynaeve pulling Lan back to life.

Three parallel facts are known:
  1. The same people can and do exist in Mirror Worlds as in the True World (TGH book, Mierin claims)
  2. Mierin pulled Egwene into her own Dream; Moghedien ripped Birgitte out of the TAR.
  3. One can travel back in time using Portal Stones or by visiting the Aelfinn, Eelfinn.

Nynaeve will combine all these sets of knowledge to bring Lan back from a physical death in the True World. Death is an illusion when one lives on in a Mirror World.


Nynaeve's "Dream" shall help mold the beginnings of the Fourth Age. Just as Gaul & the Amayar believe is possible, a 'Dream within a Dream'.

Seth Baker 03-07-2011 05:44 PM

It's also possible that Mierin was the swirl of butterflies.

Rand al'Fain 03-07-2011 06:10 PM

Wouldn't that make the bird a Tinker?

nameless 03-07-2011 06:38 PM

No, no, no! The Tinkers all joined Luca's circus ages ago. The bird must be the reincarnation of a famous feather dancer from the Covenant of Ten Nations days who once performed the sa'sara for King Aemon, who was himself reborn as a pastrami sandwich that was eaten by a farrier who reshod the horse ridden by the reincarnation of Bonwhin, who was later reborn as Elaida (who always wears red... coincidence? I think not.)

Seth Baker 03-07-2011 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nameless (Post 144316)
No, no, no! The Tinkers all joined Luca's circus ages ago. The bird must be the reincarnation of a famous feather dancer from the Covenant of Ten Nations days who once performed the sa'sara for King Aemon, who was himself reborn as a pastrami sandwich that was eaten by a farrier who reshod the horse ridden by the reincarnation of Bonwhin, who was later reborn as Elaida (who always wears red... coincidence? I think not.)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

FelixPax 03-07-2011 06:55 PM

TDR Chapter 27 - More Foreshadowing of Future Scenes
 
Other possibilities include:

  1. Mistress of Novices meeting Laras, Bodewhim, Novices (Kin Novices too), Accepted in the Kitchens in an attempt to overturn Egwene's judgment against an attempt at a political compromise with the Seanchan Empire: Aes Sedai, Kin, Sea Folk, Wilders are "followers" of Mat Cauthon option.

    Quote:

    The Mistress of Novices certainly had reason to check on them, as well as on the novices working in the kitchens, and Elaida had reason to keep an eye on the Daughter-Heir of Andor.
  2. Elayne bonding Mat Cauthon as one of her three or four Warders. Currently Elayne has bonded Rand, Birgitte as Warders and has a Sister-Wife bond with Aviendha. (Mat Cauthon possibly will be ultimate bonded to Fortuona, Aviendha, Elayne, Min as a Warder in AMoL book in theory.)

    @BrandSanderson TDR 27: ...good for the Daughter-Heir to marry a commoner, as long as he’s an Andorman, but not to marry the Dragon Reborn.

    Quote:

    Elayne sat by the table, making nervous conversation.

    “Green Ajah,” the golden-haired woman said for what Egwene thought must be the twentieth time since midday. “I might choose Green Ajah myself, Egwene. Then I can have three or four Warders, perhaps marry one of them. Who better for Prince Consort of Andor than a Warder? Unless it is . . . ” She trailed off, blushing.

    Egwene felt a pang of jealousy she thought she had put down long ago, and sympathy mixed with it. Light, how can I be jealous when I cannot look at Galad without shivering and feeling as if I am melting, both at the same time? Rand was mine, but no more. I wish I could give him to you, Elayne, but he is not for either of us, I think. It may be all well and good for the Daughter-Heir to marry a commoner, as long as he’s an Andorman, but not to marry the Dragon Reborn.

    The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 27 -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Elayne, Nynaeve
    Mat Cauthon is an Andoran or Two Rivers man by blood too.
  3. Nynaeve and a third person could Dream together in the TAR (again).
    Quote:

    Nynaeve handed her the pouch, and a long, thin strip of leather. “Perhaps it will work for more than one at once. I could . . . go with you, perhaps.”
  4. @BrandSanderson TDR 27: also scenes of rooms going from Light to Dark with only 1 candle lit in the Tower, are 'repeated' across the series.
    @BrandSanderson (cont'd) TDR 27: In particular a later scene with Morgase, Tallanvor, Lini, Breane in Amador when the Seanchan attacked.
  5. @BrandSanderson TDR 27: Loved this line: "Rand, are you all right? Perrin? Who was she? Sleep came." --Egwene's own memory issues
    Egwene al'Vere is the re-born soul of the Soldier Amyrlin, who was of the Green Ajah. That's one reason Birgitte is so fearful of Egwene al'Vere's character in the story. Why? Birgitte knows exactly who Egwene's soul is, her past & some of her future, too.

    Point is Egwene has major identity questions of her own, just like Rand did much of the series.
  6. @BrandSanderson TDR 27: Maybe you noticed the "Song" being sung by a frog & chorus with the trees around Egwene with the Moon's crescent up.

    Quote:

    A whirring sound, and she jumped before she recognized a cricket. A frog gave a bass croak in the darkness, and a chorus answered it. As her eyes adapted, she dimly made out trees all around her. Clouds blanketed the stars, and the moon was a thin sliver.
    Clouds are currently blanketing the Stars over the majority of the Westlands as of ToM book. The Moon is a symbol of Mierin, and Silver reflects the Light to ward off evil. The Song shall be Sung in AMoL book, by a character symbolized as a frog among many many others.
  7. @BrandSanderson TDR 27: Mierin as Silvie to Egwene, "But who see a servant?" (Mierin is a servant....)
    Quote:

    “Oh, you’ve come to the right place for answers, my Lady. The Heart of the Stone is full of answers. And secrets. The High Lords would not be pleased to see us here, my Lady. Oh, no. None but the High Lords enter here. And servants, of course.” She gave a sly, screeching laugh. “The High Lords don’t sweep and mop. But who sees a servant?”
  8. @BrandSanderson TDR 27: There's a line where Elayne claims her mother Morgase, Gareth Bryne, the whole army against Tar Valon. An apt hint.

    Quote:

    “I have to write to my mother,” Elayne said. When she saw the looks they gave her, her voice became defensive. “I have already vanished once without her knowing where I was. If I do it again . . . You do not know Mother’s temper. She could send Gareth Bryne and the whole army against Tar Valon. Or hunting after us.
    If the Seanchan enter Tar Valon through a basement, they will quickly gain a superior position in one of the buildings: Library Tower or White Tower.

    Gareth Bryne leading Salidar Aes Sedai armies and Morgase (Mother) leading the Perrin's armies with Galad's, Berelain's, Alliandre's forces likely will attempt to invade Tar Valon to counter the Seanchan's major attack.

    Gareth & Morgase on one side, and Elaida as a Seanchan damane on the other.
  9. Elayne will defy her Mother, the Amyrlin Seat (Egwene) in AMoL book.
    Quote:

    “I will not work in the kitchens while you two are off adventuring, either. I just have to tell my mother than I am out of the Tower on the Amyrlin’s orders, so she won’t become furious if she hears rumors. I do not have to tell her where we are going, or why.”

  10. Demandred has a 'secret plot' to backstab Moridin plans, according to Silvie/Mierin:

    Quote:

    What kind of secrets?”

    But Silvie was hobbling toward the crystal sword. “Plots,” she said as if to herself. “All of them pretending to serve the Great Lord, and all the while plotting and planning to regain what they lost. Each one thinking he or she is the only one plotting. Ishamael is a fool!”
    1. Moridin knows about the Shadow Coast Mountains plan, Demandred is commanding. (Hence a reason for Aran'gar's POV in KoD book, where Moridin is forced to claim Sammael sent 100,000 Shadowspawn thru the Ways, which Demandred is known to be using.)
    2. However Demandred's backstab plan involves possibly using the giant sa'angreal found in the Black Hills against everyone including Moridin. The likely control statue for this giant sa'angreal was previously located in Rhuidean, next to the Tree of Life. Its currently missing as of ToM book (Aviendha point of view).
  11. Mierin will have a chance at holding Callandor in AMoL book.
    Quote:

    Callandor, my Lady. You know that, don’t you? The Sword That Cannot Be Touched.” Abruptly she swung her stick behind her; a foot from the sword, the stick stopped with a dull thwack and bounded back. Silvie grinned wider. “The Sword That Is Not a Sword, though there’s precious few knows what it is. But none can touch it save one. They saw to that, who put it here. The Dragon Reborn will hold Callandor one day, and prove to the world he’s the Dragon by doing it. The first proof, anyway. Lews Therin come back for all the world to see, and grovel before. Ah, the High Lords don’t like having it here. They like nothing to do with the Power. They’d rid themselves of it, if they could. If they could. I suppose there’s others would take it, if they could. What wouldn’t one of the Forsaken give, to hold Callandor?”
    (Theory) Mierin will use Callandor's power to guide the weaves of Saidin and Saidar to re-seal the Bore fully, while in a linked Circle with Rand al'Thor and Alivia.

  12. Who will be happy to leave Tar Valon, according to Elayne?
Quote:

“I just thought of someone who’d be happy to carry Elayne’s letter for her. Happy to leave Tar Valon, too. In fact, I’d bet on it.”

Mat Cauthon, aka Aemon reborn, Artur Hawkwing reborn. :D

Seth Baker 03-07-2011 07:24 PM

You seem unwilling to accept any narrative description of anything without reading a thousand meanings into it and stating them as absolute verifiable fact. It is driving me absolutely insane.

I hesitate to ask, but on what basis do you claim that Birgitte knows all of these things? (Who Mat will marry, who Egwene was in her past lives, etc.)

Mat Cauthon IS NOT Artur Hawkwing reborn. A soul cannot be split. A soul cannot appear in Tel'aran'rhiod if it has been reborn. A soul cannot be called by the Horn if it is not in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawkwing came. Therefore, Mat Cauthon is abso-freaking-lutely - ABSOLUTELY - not Artur Hawkwing. Period, end of line. Next paragraph.

FelixPax 03-08-2011 12:42 AM

Cauthon cares.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144322)
You seem unwilling to accept any narrative description of anything without reading a thousand meanings into it and stating them as absolute verifiable fact. It is driving me absolutely insane.

Ever heard of promises to the reader, mentioned by Brandon Sanderson? If not, note every single promise, oath, agreement given by each character in the whole series. Promises do matter in WoT.


I've written over 1,200 posts at Theoryland Forum, how many of them have you read? Most Theorylander's have voiced displeasure, when I write out and post 20-30 page forum documents ... you are unique, it seems.

Last I checked I'm writing for free here... unlike someone named Brandon Sanderson... who gives out far less information than I do.

Robert Jordan placed every single word in these series on purpose, according multiple recorded interviews. He knew the ending of this series, before writing 'The Eye of the World' book. Many of the sentences & scenes are meant to be read or interpreted more than one way. Jordan begins tEotW book being extremely subtle, vague is absolutely crucial scenes. He shows us only what he wants to, when he wants to.

Why do I emphasize the narrative descriptions of the text? Because RJ followed other writers styles to slowly build up unconscious imaginary in the back of readers minds, just like it is common in Estonian historical tales.

It's know that RJ created and used a mindmap of clustering concepts when writing WoT books.


RJ used 'descriptions' to create foreshadowing.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144322)
I hesitate to ask, but on what basis do you claim that Birgitte knows all of these things? (Who Mat will marry, who Egwene was in her past lives, etc.)

Birgitte directly said she remembers everything, when she was ripped out, to Elayne. Birgitte knows exactly who she is, Mat is, Elayne is, Valan Luca is, Nynaeve is, among many others.

Don't you recollect "WHO" the Soldier Queen is? Don't you remember when Birgitte mentions living previously in her lives? Don't you recall the Promises both Aviendha AND Min gave to Birgitte?

I have written about this in detail previously, about how Birgitte knows what she knows.

  • Knows Nynaeve is the Soldier Queen.
  • Knows Nynaeve was once Queen of Aramaelle.
  • Knows a Giant on a Glass Mountain will be slayed.
  • Knows exactly who Valan Luca is: Jenn Aiel reborn.
  • Mat marrying Elayne, Aviendha, Min and yes by deduction Fortuona.
  • Mat becoming First-Brothers with Rand al'Thor.
  • Mat becoming acknowledged as the Coramoor.
  • Mat being acknowledged as "He Who Comes With the Dawn" by Aviendha, Gaul, Bain, Chiad et al.
  • Mat becoming King of the Aes Sedai.




Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144322)
Mat Cauthon IS NOT Artur Hawkwing reborn. A soul cannot be split. A soul cannot appear in Tel'aran'rhiod if it has been reborn. A soul cannot be called by the Horn if it is not in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawkwing came. Therefore, Mat Cauthon is abso-freaking-lutely - ABSOLUTELY - not Artur Hawkwing. Period, end of line. Next paragraph.

Mierin claimed the very same people existed in Mirror Worlds, as in the True World. Call that what you will, a 'soul clone', a 'soul copy', a 'soul split' et la... however Mierin said in "The Great Hunt" book in front of Hurin, Loial and Rand.


What DID I write, once again?

Mat Cauthon is the soul of Aemon reborn.
Mat Cauthon is the soul of Artur Hawkwing reborn.

I assumed readers would have connected the dots, and known that Aemon, Artur Hawkwing were born in different time periods. I guess I was incorrect in that generic assumption, sigh.

It is the very same soul, who has been reborn multiple times throughout the Wheel of Time:
  1. Artur Hawkwing
  2. Aemon
  3. A farmer with a quarterstaff who defeated the greatest swordman in history, Jearom (TDR, Ch.24; LoC, Ch.1)
  4. Mat Cauthon
Who's Sword is "Justice" ultimately?
Mat Cauthon.




Who else soul was reborn?

  • Dermon was reborn as Thom
  • Rogosh Eagle-Eye was reborn as Thom
  • Dunsinin was reborn as Moiraine
  • Mordaine was reborn as Moiraine
  • Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan was reborn as Tuon/Fortuona
  • Aemon al Caar al Thorin was reborn as Mat Cauthon
  • Luca was reborn as Valan Luca
  • Isebaille Tobanyi was reborn as Kiruna Nachiman
  • (Ishara's mother & Governor)Endara Casalain was reborn as Morgase
  • (Hawkwing Greatest General) Souran Maravaile was reborn as Daerid Ondin or possibly Talmanes. (1st a Commoner, 2nd a Noble who wears no Noble colors; Souran was a Commoner.)
  • Queen Ethenielle Kirukon Materasu was reborn as Nynaeve al'Meara
  • Jeorad Manyard was reborn as Juilin
  • Panarch Farede was reborn as Amathera
  • Jearom was reborn as Galad

--------------------------------------------------


Somewhat related foreshadowing is:


The House of Matherin was once Mat Cauthon noble house in a prior lifetime.
Quote:

Matherin was an old House, if not large or strong, and the main stairs, leading down to the entry hall, were broad and trimmed with marble railings. The entry hall itself was a generous space, with gray-and-blue floor tiles and mirrored oil lamps hanging on chains from the ceiling twenty feet above. There was nothing in the way of gilding and little inlay, but ornately carved chests and cabinets stood along the sides of the hall, and two wall hangings were displayed on one wall. One showed men hunting leopards from horseback, a chancy business at best, and the other women of House Matherin presenting a sword to the first Queen of Andor, an event that Matherin treasured and that might or might not have actually happened.
Quote:

“Matherin has always maintained faith with Trakand,” Elayne told him, “and I put my trust that it always will. I value Lord Aedmun’s loyalty, Master Ros, and yours.”

She did not insult Matherin, and him, by promising to remember or offering rewards, yet Master Ros’ broad smile said she had already given him as much reward as he desired. Matherin would receive rewards, if they were earned, but they could not be held out as if offering to buy a horse.

Elayne is ultimately going to be incorrect in her originally judgment of Matherin being too small to matter.

Quote:

Things had been bad enough when she had three declared rivals, but now Naean and Elenia were united behind Arymilla Marne, of all people, the least likely of the three to have succeeded, and that meant she had two Houses—two large enough to count; Matherin and those eighteen others she had visited were too small—her own Trakand and Dyelin’s Taravin, to face six.

Crossroads of Twilight - Chapter 11 "Talk of Debts" -- Elayne point of view
Verin Mathwin's name sounds similar to 'Matherin'. Verin Mathwin grew up in Far Madding, which once was in the same nation-state as the House of Matherin, years ago.



The only person Mat Cauthon has ever once wished would give him a "Noble Title" is Elayne, ironically enough.

Thing is a Noble Title given by Elayne will not rein in Mat Cauthon's behavior just as it didn't rein in Birgitte's.
Quote:

Is that why you saddled me with a title? Did you think it would rein me in? Wouldn’t have been the first silly thought in that head of yours. For someone who thinks so clearly most of the time . . . Well.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 7 "The Streets of Caemlyn" - Elayne point of view; with Birgitte

There is an apt foreshadowing for AMoL book, to be found in Winter Heart, Chapter 7. :)



Elaida's foretelling of the Royal House of Andor being crucial to the Last Battle.


Quote:

It was not widely known what made Elayne more important than any other noble with a strong claim to a throne. Aside from the fact that she would be Aes Sedai one day, of course.

Elaida had the Foretelling sometimes, a Talent many thought lost before her, and long ago she had Foretold that the Royal House of Andor held the key to winning the Last Battle. Twenty-five years gone and more, as soon as it became clear that Morgase Trakand would gain the throne in the Succession, Elaida had fastened herself to the girl, as she was then. How Elayne was crucial, Elaida did not know, but Foretelling never lied. Sometimes she almost hated the Talent. She hated things she could not control.


The Path of Daggers, Prologue 'Lightnings' -- Elaida point of view
What is crucial to the Last Battle, is Elayne AND Fortuona together marrying Mat Cauthon. Why? That act immediately stops Seanchan sul'dam & damane from attacking upon Aes Sedai. Thus, together they can re-direct their combined forces against the Shadow.


Elaida already "obey" Elayne, as Queen of Andor, because she said this Elayne in the White Tower previously.

Rand al'Fain 03-08-2011 03:16 AM

Your forgot that the bird is a Tinker felix! Your slipping.

FelixPax 03-08-2011 02:38 PM

Perhaps. ;o)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain (Post 144351)
Your forgot that the bird is a Tinker felix! Your slipping.

Slipping am I? Oh, really now?

Luca is the one who slipped and fell into a thornbush (TSR). ;)

Valan Luca is the one who has a writ of protection from the Daughter of Nine Moons. :D


Though I guess your wink-wink claim is that if Mat Cauthon is to become a Jenn Aiel, his soul's one time mother is one too? Rhea gave birth to Aemon; Rhea's soul is Mierin, while Aemon's soul is Mat Cauthon. Hence, that redbird is truly a Jenn Aiel at heart.

Beauty and Ugliness is an illusion, while one's heart & soul is the true measure.

Some how I suspect Seth Baker is going to attack that hypothesis--LOL.

Rand al'Fain 03-08-2011 04:21 PM

I guess the TIC comment went over your head a bit.

Seth Baker 03-08-2011 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 144396)
Slipping am I? Oh, really now?

Luca is the one who slipped and fell into a thornbush (TSR). ;)

Valan Luca is the one who has a writ of protection from the Daughter of Nine Moons. :D


Though I guess your wink-wink claim is that if Mat Cauthon is to become a Jenn Aiel, his soul's one time mother is one too? Rhea gave birth to Aemon; Rhea's soul is Mierin, while Aemon's soul is Mat Cauthon. Hence, that redbird is truly a Jenn Aiel at heart.

Beauty and Ugliness is an illusion, while one's heart & soul is the true measure.

Some how I suspect Seth Baker is going to attack that hypothesis--LOL.

Hardly. I'm going to propose an alternative one with exactly the same grounding in reality.

Valan Luca fell into a thornbush. What else has thorns? Rose bushes. Who is represented by roses? The Queen of Andor. Elayne. Valan Luca is clearly going to marry Elayne.

Egwene thought that an Andorman, a commoner would be acceptable. Valan Luca is a Tinker. Where did we first meet the Tinkers? Near Andor. Valan Luca is an Andorman. Valan Luca is clearly going to marry Elayne.

Tam al'Thor is Birgitte reborn. His skill with the bow is unmatched. Cenn Buie is Gaidal Cain. They're both Tinker Jenn Aiel. They've sworn to Perrin, who is Beidomon reborn. Beidomon was a craftsman Aes Sedai, drilling into the pattern; Perrin is a craftsman without the ability to channel. But he can still use Tel'aran'rhiod. Beidomon was a male Dreamer too. That's how he knew how to drill through into the Dark One's prison.

So Tam al'Thor/Birgitte/Tinker Jenn Aiel was the redbird. He was warning Egwene that Elayne would marry Valan Luca.

QED

Bluedust 03-08-2011 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144322)
You seem unwilling to accept any narrative description of anything without reading a thousand meanings into it and stating them as absolute verifiable fact. It is driving me absolutely insane.

I hesitate to ask, but on what basis do you claim that Birgitte knows all of these things? (Who Mat will marry, who Egwene was in her past lives, etc.)

Mat Cauthon IS NOT Artur Hawkwing reborn. A soul cannot be split. A soul cannot appear in Tel'aran'rhiod if it has been reborn. A soul cannot be called by the Horn if it is not in Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawkwing came. Therefore, Mat Cauthon is abso-freaking-lutely - ABSOLUTELY - not Artur Hawkwing. Period, end of line. Next paragraph.

He's a joke account that knows how to get a rise out of people by posting nonsense. Just ignore him.

Seth Baker 03-08-2011 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluedust (Post 144445)
He's a joke account that knows how to get a rise out of people by posting nonsense. Just ignore him.

I know joke accounts when I see them, and he looks like one. But he's like this everywhere. On Twitter, interacting with Brandon Sanderson.

As crazy as it is, I've come across other people who mince up books when reading them, and read similarly crazy meanings where they weren't written that way. Writers who deliberately foreshadow and who have a well-constructed story bring them out of the woodwork.

I recall reading a story about this kind of reading once. A professor gave a lecture on an early book by Isaac Asimov, discussing the veiled meanings and references in the text. At one point, an attendee stood up, and asked a question about one particular meaning. The lecturer answered that Asimov's meaning was clear. The attendee responded, "That's odd, because I'm Isaac Asimov, and that's not what I meant."

I wish I could find a direct source of that meeting, because I'm missing some of it.

FelixPax 03-09-2011 11:29 AM

Nynaeve will choose Valan Luca
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144420)
Hardly. I'm going to propose an alternative one with exactly the same grounding in reality.

Valan Luca fell into a thornbush. What else has thorns? Rose bushes. Who is represented by roses? The Queen of Andor. Elayne. Valan Luca is clearly going to marry Elayne.

You argument is an absolutely poor thought experiment without any evidence nor proof. At least when Terez makes a claim she uses quotations, interviews, video recordings for evidence. One would assume an would-be lawyer should know better. Guess not. Even a mathematician would have done better (e.g. Proofs).



Elayne lacks feeling in that way for Valan Luca. Whereas Elayne has been slowly warming to, Mat Cauthon, after Egwene al'Vere originally pushed them apart in Tar Valon.

Quote:

“I want you to carry a letter for me,” Elayne said before Nynaeve could speak. “To my mother, in Caemlyn.” She smiled, making a dimple in her cheek. “I would appreciate it so very much, Mat.” The morning light through the windows seemed to pick out highlights in her hair.

I wonder if she likes to dance. He pushed the thought right out of his head. “That does not sound too very hard, but it’s a long trip. What do I get out of it?” From the look on her face, he did not think that dimple had failed her very often.

She drew herself up, slim and proud. He could almost see a throne behind her. “Are you a loyal subject of Andor? Do you not wish to serve the Lion Throne, and your Daughter-Heir?”

Mat snickered.

“I told you that would not work either,” Egwene said. “Not with him.”

Elayne had a wry twist to her mouth. “I thought it worth a try. It always works on the Guards, in Caemlyn. You said if I smiled—” She cut off short, very obviously not looking at him.

What did you say, Egwene, he thought, furious. That I’m a fool for any girl who smiles at me? He kept his outward calm, though, and managed to maintain his grin.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 28 "A Way Out" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene

Mat's independent streak took Egwene's influence as a negative to following up on his initial liking of Elayne.



Who does Valan Luca believe will choose him?

'Nana', Nynaeve al'Meara.


Quote:

Luca sighed heavily. “You are the only woman for me, Nana. Let other men choose boring flutterers with their shy sighs. A man would know he had to walk through fire and tame a lioness with his bare hands every time he approached you. Every day an adventure, and every night . . . ” His smile almost earned him boxed ears. “I will find you again, Nana, and you will choose me. I know it in here.” Thumping his chest dramatically, he gave his cape an even more pretentious swirl. “And you know it, too, my dearest Nana. In your fair heart, you do.”

Nynaeve did not know whether to shake her head or gape. Men were mad. All of them.

He insisted on escorting her back to her wagon, holding her arm as if they were at a ball.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 47 "The Price of a Ship" -- Nynaeve al'Meara point of view; with Valan Luca

That last bolding is foreshadowing, I believe for AMoL book. How?

Valan Luca's writ of protection does not include Nynaeve's name on it as someone who is excluded from protection. Plus Cerandin will recognize Nynaeve as being part of Luca's Circus Showfolk.

Seth Baker 03-09-2011 11:39 AM

You think I don't have any proof because you disagree with me, but I have justification for that theory that is practically identical to the "rationale" you have for your lunacy.

nameless 03-09-2011 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144446)
I know joke accounts when I see them, and he looks like one. But he's like this everywhere. On Twitter, interacting with Brandon Sanderson.

As crazy as it is, I've come across other people who mince up books when reading them, and read similarly crazy meanings where they weren't written that way. Writers who deliberately foreshadow and who have a well-constructed story bring them out of the woodwork.

I recall reading a story about this kind of reading once. A professor gave a lecture on an early book by Isaac Asimov, discussing the veiled meanings and references in the text. At one point, an attendee stood up, and asked a question about one particular meaning. The lecturer answered that Asimov's meaning was clear. The attendee responded, "That's odd, because I'm Isaac Asimov, and that's not what I meant."

I wish I could find a direct source of that meeting, because I'm missing some of it.

Authorial intention is a fallacy. The book you read is never the same as the book the author wrote. My own favorite anecdote on the subject, which I'm likewise unable to find a source for, is about a fancy reception attended by Robert Frost at which a poetry critic went on at great length about all the "hidden meanings" in Frost's work. When a drunken guest confronted Frost to ask if he'd really included any hidden meanings, Frost simply replied "he read them, so somebody must have written them." If the text supports a particular interpretation it doesn't matter whether the author intended to put it there or not. What matters is that it ended up there.

Of course, Felix isn't operating under the same criteria for "support" as the rest of us.

FelixPax 03-10-2011 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Baker (Post 144500)
You think I don't have any proof because you disagree with me, but I have justification for that theory that is practically identical to the "rationale" you have for your lunacy.

Seth, even Ms. Quotations Terez lives up to her nickname, by showing quotations as evidence for her "Gawyn Will Kill Rand" hypothesis claim.

Whereas, Seth's rule's of discovery, evidence are purely HERESAY. Your methodology stinks to high heavens, didn't you learn anything in Law School? Or did you enroll in a degree mill?

If you really desire a discussion about the Wheel of Time series, rather than simply "labeling"... you need to use evidence to back up your narrative.

I've met my share of lawyers, judges, law professors, jury consultants and so far your in the bottom 1% of the group. You can do far better.

As they say in Missouri, "SHOW ME".

Seth Baker 03-10-2011 11:17 AM

I'm not even sure if I'm trolling you or you're trolling me, anymore.

nameless - it doesn't matter, for finding abstract meaning. For making a concrete prediction of where an author will go in a sequel, it's absolutely pivotal. There's a huge difference between the two.

Felix - I'm at a Top 20 law school, and in the top 1/3 of my class. The reason I'm posting these things without support is because you do the same. I know how reliable evidence works. You apparently don't.

Everyone has to make inferential leaps of some kind, especially when we're theorizing. But you make Michael Jordan look like Stephen Hawking.

fdsaf3 03-10-2011 11:56 AM

Seth - just leave it alone. And to be honest, I'm not sure if you're helping or hurting your cause by saying that you are in a good law school and in the top third of your class.

Back on topic (somewhat): does anyone care to propose a viable scenario where Egwene could still Rand? Rand has been shown to be able to shield Egwene and Elayne together without breaking a sweat, and that was before he evolved to the current channeling beast that he is. Unless Egwene had a circle of the 13 most powerful female channelers (because how is she going to get a male to increase the size of the circle?), I don't see it happening. Not to mention that a few of the most powerful female channelers (Nyneave, Alivia) won't help.


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