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-   -   TGH: Ch. 03 - Callandor (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6940)

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 02:37 AM

TGH: Ch. 03 - Callandor
 
Loony ideas follow, but it's late and I'm having fun with the implausible train of thought...I'm sure one of you will kill it on site and I can get back to my re-read.

Rand is thinking about going to Tar Valon and thinks this:

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies
For a moment, feeling lost, he leaned against the corridor wall, the stone hard under his shoulder. Eyes blank, he stared at a distant nothing and saw things he did not want to see. Gentled. Would it be so bad, to have it all over? Really over? He closed his eyes, but he could still see himself, huddling like a rabbit with nowhere left to run, and Aes Sedai closing round him like ravens. They almost always die soon after, men who've been Gentled. They stop wanting to live. He remembered Thom Merrilin's words too well to face that. With a brisk shake, he hurried on down the hall. No need to stay in one place until he was found. How long till they find you anyway? You're like a sheep in a pen. How long? He touched the sword hilt at his side. No, not a sheep. Not for Aes Sedai or anybody else. He felt a little foolish, but determined.
This made me think of Egwene's experience in the Arches:

Quote:

TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 23 - Sealed
The accident with the ter'angreal, Egwene's fear that someone might have read the papers Verin had given her, her suspicions of everyone in that chamber, all these had been terrible, but they had buffered her in a rough, ungentle way from what had happened inside the ter'angreal. They had come from outside; the other was inside. Elayne's words stripped the buffer away, and what was inside hit Egwene as if the ceiling had collapsed. Rand her husband, and Joiya her baby. Rand pinned and begging her to kill him. Rand chained to be gentled.
She sees Rand chained to be gentled, and I wonder if the slip of truth in that vision of a possible future is that Rand will be gentled.

But Gentled? Now? They talked about it so often in the early books, but it's dropped off the radar and with the healing of Gentling/Stilling, but I thought, ok, let's say he is Gentled, what then, how would it fit?

And then wondered if Rand were Gentled how could he still fight the Dark One, how could it be beneficial, since we now know that Gentling can be healed. If Nynaeve was there, why wouldn't she "fix" him? Which led me down the thought to Callandor's buffer issue:

Quote:

INTERVIEW: Oct 28th, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Jason Wolfbrother (Paraphrased)

JASON WOLFBROTHER
Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?

ROBERT JORDAN
Yes.

JASON WOLFBROTHER
Was it used in the War of Power?

ROBERT JORDAN
Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

JASON WOLFBROTHER
Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?

ROBERT JORDAN
The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.
Heh. Simply a flawed Sa'angreal...that becomes the key to the destiny of the Third Age. And then this quote was interesting:

Quote:

INTERVIEW: Jul, 2009
BarnesandNoble.com Book Club Q&A with Brandon Sanderson

NIKLEAS
WOT question: Rereading the series right now to get ready for The Gathering Storm, currently on book 4. Has RJ included details in his notes about who made Callandor and who placed it in the Stone of Tear (and how)?

BRANDON SANDERSON
There were notes on Callandor, and the sword will play a part in the final three books. More, I cannot say. However, I'll make a note to suggest that Harriet consider this question when creating the Encyclopedia, so anything that doesn't end up in the last books is revealed there.
So...there is much more to say about Callandor that could be included in the Encyclopedia that we haven't learned?

And this one:

Quote:

INTERVIEW: Apr, 2012
Afternoon Tea with Brandon Sanderson - Luckers (Paraphrased)

LUCKERS
Okay, so, there have been three incidences where characters have ignored the Choedan Kal in favour of Callandor—or well, not even that. Just ignored the Choedan Kal. Shaidar Haran in The Gathering Storm when Elza took the Domination Band, Solinda during Rand’s flashbacks was the one who gave the ter’angreal to the Aiel, but made no efforts to secure the Choedan Kal like Callandor, and the Aes Sedai who was looking to fight Ishamael during the breaking who took sa’angreal from the Aiel, but left the Choedan Kal. So I guess the question is...

BRANDON SANDERSON
Why are they choosing Callandor over the Choedan Kal?

LUCKERS
Well, not even that, really, because two of those have nothing to do with the Callandor. I guess it’s more, was there something dodgy... did they know something about the Choedan Kal... why did they leave it?

BRANDON SANDERSON
There is a reason. It has to do with Callandor being key to the ending, and the Choedan Kal not.
So - it was simply a flawed manufacturing process which created a Sa'angreal that will be key to the end of this Age, about which there is data that will likely not be revealed in the books and could end up in the Encyclopedia.

What is it that we don't know about this Sa'angreal? What if the lack of a buffer, the flaw, is its greatest strength when used by a Gentled male linked to two females.

Quote:

TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 48 - Reading the Commentary
She focused on the book. So... Rand was to use Callandor as part of a circle, then? The three becoming one? But for what reason and with whom? If he was to fight the Dark One, then it didn't make sense for him to be in a circle with someone else in control, did it? "Cadsuane," she said. "This is still wrong. There's more here. Something we haven't discovered." "About Callandor?" the woman asked. Min nodded. "I suspect so as well," Cadsuane replied. How odd to hear her being frank! "But I haven't been able to determine what. If only that fool boy would revoke my exile, we could get on with more important—"
So - what haven't we discovered about Callandor?

(AMoL Spoiler Below)

We see in the latest cover for AMoL a picture of Rand going into the Pit with Callandor and Nynaeve and Moiraine. So, what is the answer to Min's question? Does it make sense for him to be in a circle with someone else in control?

So - I took a Gentled Rand, a flawed Sa'angreal that is the key to the world and allows unbuffered access to Saidin and then I wondered, could they link with a Gentled male, Rand, and could Callandor's lack of a buffer and possibly another quirk that is unrevealed (it can be used by a gentled channeler, or a Learner for example) be used to challenge the Dark One himself because the female directing the flows could draw as much as needed without worrying that it will destroy the male channeler who happens to be disconnected from the torrent of the Power, thanks to a "simple" manufacturing flaw?

I know, it's way loony and likely completely wrong, but do we have any data that makes the idea impossible? The main question would be, can a gentled channeler be brought into a circle? Although, I could pose the theory on top of a theory on top of a theory being that Callandor is "flawed" in such a way as to make it possible...(I can't remember at the moment if that is definitively answered in the books.)

GonzoTheGreat 05-10-2012 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 188997)
The main question would be, can a gentled channeler be brought into a circle?

Fortunately, the answer to your question can be found right in the books. And the answer is "no!"

This is shown quite clearly in WH (Chapter 29, Another Plan), when Setalle Anan cannot be brought into a circle with Joline, even though they use an a'dam to make this attempt.

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 09:01 AM

Remind me
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 188999)
Fortunately, the answer to your question can be found right in the books. And the answer is "no!"

This is shown quite clearly in WH (Chapter 29, Another Plan), when Setalle Anan cannot be brought into a circle with Joline, even though they use an a'dam to make this attempt.

I thought Setalle was burned out? She wouldn't be applicable to this discussion.

We know that Siuan and Leane could wear the bracelet of the a'dam and sense Moghedien, iirc. And we know that Sul'dam can be held by the collar. So, again, do we have any evidence that a stilled/gentled channeler cannot be linked?

Ishara 05-10-2012 09:53 AM

She was...

yks 6nnetu hing 05-10-2012 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 189020)
I thought Setalle was burned out? She wouldn't be applicable to this discussion.

We know that Siuan and Leane could wear the bracelet of the a'dam, iirc. And we know that Sul'dam can be held by the collar. So, again, do we have any evidence that a stilled/gentled channeler cannot be linked?

which raises the question: is there a physiological (um... that's the best word I can come up with) differnce between burning out and stilling.

If stilling can be Healed, could burning out be healed in a similar way? If not, why not?

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 10:05 AM

I think it is close to impossible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing (Post 189032)
which raises the question: is there a physiological (um... that's the best word I can come up with) differnce between burning out and stilling.

If stilling can be Healed, could burning out be healed in a similar way? If not, why not?

But stranger things have happened. With there being a complete absence of sensing the one power, to heal it I would imagine one would need to know where the "bridge" was and how to recreate it entirely, versus just repairing the "cut".

And yes, there is some physiological difference, I believe. Nynaeve used more than spirit to weave her fix to stilling, and we've discussed that there must be something physical as part of the maturation process.

GonzoTheGreat 05-10-2012 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing (Post 189032)
which raises the question: is there a physiological (um... that's the best word I can come up with) differnce between burning out and stilling.

If stilling can be Healed, could burning out be healed in a similar way? If not, why not?

From a signing report I posted a while ago (a decade or so) on this site:
Quote:

Being burned out is different from being stilled. The latter is not as severe as the former.
Gonzo: this is just as I expected, or at least in no way in contrast with it. :)
The impression I got at the time was that "burned out" was indeed sort of burned, while "stilled/gentled/severed" was more of a clean cut.

Based on the impression that I had of how RJ said it, I think that the following analogy may be useful:
Think of the ability to channel as a plastic pipe through which water can flow. The bigger the diameter of the pipe, the stronger the channeler. If someone is stilled, then the pipe is cut in two, but the parts can be reattached again. If someone is burned out, then part of the pipe is burned away, the ends are jagged, maybe partly melted, and reattaching it would be far more difficult.

yks 6nnetu hing 05-10-2012 10:15 AM

next question, waaaay out of the box, answer is probably no...

can someone be "opened" to the One Power by... er... building that bridge/boring the pipeline?

Can someone's existing "pipe" be augmented by another channeler?

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 10:23 AM

The important distinction
 
I prefer taking burning out literally...as in, the pipe (bridge) is gone, which plays well with the fact that we know those who have been burned out can no longer sense the One Power at all, unlike those who still have bridges (pipes) which have been cut.

It's important as far as my theory is concerned, because linking would be vital to the theory's viability, which from our experience with the a'dam and Sul'dam, makes it seem possible.

Anyone remember an instance where a stilled/gentled channeler could not be brought into a circle (link)?

Weird Harold 05-10-2012 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing (Post 189032)
which raises the question: is there a physiological (um... that's the best word I can come up with) differnce between burning out and stilling.

The difference would be about the same as between surgery done with a scalpel and surgery done with a blowtorch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing (Post 189032)
If stilling can be Healed, could burning out be healed in a similar way? If not, why not?

Healing burnout would essentially require reconstruction of the victim's channeling ability; not technically impossible, but much more involved that fixing a clean cut in a single facet of channeling ability.

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 10:26 AM

It seems plausible
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing (Post 189036)
next question, waaaay out of the box, answer is probably no...

can someone be "opened" to the One Power by... er... building that bridge/boring the pipeline?

Can someone's existing "pipe" be augmented by another channeler?

In a very detailed discussion we had on this years ago, bridge augmentation came up and it seems possible that either bridge or additional secondary organ would be capable of being augmented, since we know it can be shielded in some way (Asmodean) and also damaged but still functional, and healed improperly (Leane/Siuan) so as to diminish capability.

BTW - YKS, are you still doing your re-read? Would you like me to add you a sub-forum for your posts? I'm planning on doing a bunch, so it made more sense to organize them together. Let me know! (And to anyone else too!)

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 12:30 PM

Because this is fun
 
Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 5 - The Shadow in Shienar
"What if we have been wrong since the start? What happens if the Dragon Reborn is gentled before the Last Battle even begins? Even prophecy can fail if the one prophesied is slain or gentled. And then we face the Dark One naked to the storm."
Hehe. Nice foreshadowing for both gentling and/or death? :)

Crispin's Crispian 05-10-2012 02:32 PM

OK, Tam, let's say it's possible that Callandor allows the women to channel saidin even when the man is gentled.

What would the point be? That is, what would be the reasoning for having Rand gentled instead of able to channel? Is there some advantage to being a non-channeler?

Hmm. OK. Rabid speculation time. The Forsaken are given special abilities, everlasting life, blah blah via their oaths to the Dark One taken in the Pit of Doom. What if the ability to channel is a vulnerability by which the Dark One can take hold of a person's soul? The Chosen are chosen because they are powerful, yes, but also because their channeling ability gives the Dark One a specific power over their souls. It's how Shaidar Haran keeps finding them, and how Shadowspawn recognize them, and how they can be given True Power access.

The pivotal moment will come when Rand enters the Pit, because that's when he is the most vulnerable. It's the sha'rah moment. If he has no ability to channel, the Dark One can't get his soul.

Rand seals the Bore (um...however) and then thumbs his nose.

Crispin's Crispian 05-10-2012 02:37 PM

Oh, I wanted to add:


Quote:

Originally Posted by ToM,32
Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

What if he can only be seized if he's actually channeling?

Tamyrlin 05-10-2012 03:34 PM

Yeah, that's the twist
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 189062)
OK, Tam, let's say it's possible that Callandor allows the women to channel saidin even when the man is gentled.

What would the point be? That is, what would be the reasoning for having Rand gentled instead of able to channel? Is there some advantage to being a non-channeler?

Hmm. OK. Rabid speculation time. The Forsaken are given special abilities, everlasting life, blah blah via their oaths to the Dark One taken in the Pit of Doom. What if the ability to channel is a vulnerability by which the Dark One can take hold of a person's soul? The Chosen are chosen because they are powerful, yes, but also because their channeling ability gives the Dark One a specific power over their souls. It's how Shaidar Haran keeps finding them, and how Shadowspawn recognize them, and how they can be given True Power access.

The pivotal moment will come when Rand enters the Pit, because that's when he is the most vulnerable. It's the sha'rah moment. If he has no ability to channel, the Dark One can't get his soul.

Rand seals the Bore (um...however) and then thumbs his nose.

Two things: the one you just pointed out, it would somehow prevent the Dark One from taking control of Rand in some fashion particular to channelers, but it would also enable them to draw on a huge amount of Saidin without risking burning out/killing Rand...that's the concept, that the Gentled aspect in essence protects Rand, while giving unfettered access.

I don't know, it's a zany idea, but I'm trying to think outside the box.

Ishara 05-10-2012 04:10 PM

Well....for what it's worth:

Quote:

TITLE:
Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 22 - The Price of The Ring
"Can they?" Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is - a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things." Egwene shuddered. "Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know - Light send it has not been done! - since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords - Darkfriends who could channel - weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."
What if that's not the only weakness associated with being able to channel?

Marie Curie 7 05-10-2012 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 189062)
Hmm. OK. Rabid speculation time. The Forsaken are given special abilities, everlasting life, blah blah via their oaths to the Dark One taken in the Pit of Doom.

They've not given been given immortality, though. They've just been promised it. The question is, will the Dark One deliver if he wins?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Interview: Apr, 2003
Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question: To go back to what you were saying a few minutes ago, were you implying that you could channel the True Power without being granted immortality?

Robert Jordan: Oh yes.

Question: Aren't the Forsaken already ...

Robert Jordan: No. They're not immortal.

Question: Do they know that?

Robert Jordan: Yes, they know that.

Question: But they believe they are immortal.

Robert Jordan: No, they do not believe they are immortal, but they believe they will be. All they need to do is get the Dark One free. And they have been promised this. This is their reward for getting him free. If they manage to get him out of that prison, he will grant them immortality. And they believe this because they have seen him in the past, as he has done now, bring the dead back to life. Give the dead new bodies. Transfer souls from a dying body into a young and healthy body. They've seen him do this. So they know that can be done. So it's not as though they are believing something, somebody just walked up to you and said "I can make you immortal if you go out and do this, kill and do awful deeds". They've seen him, they have seen these incredible things done. So they have reason to believe.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian (Post 189062)
What if the ability to channel is a vulnerability by which the Dark One can take hold of a person's soul? The Chosen are chosen because they are powerful, yes, but also because their channeling ability gives the Dark One a specific power over their souls. It's how Shaidar Haran keeps finding them, and how Shadowspawn recognize them, and how they can be given True Power access.

RJ said that the Dark One can grab any soul (at least within the limits that we know regarding balefire and such), though he may not want to grab the soul of a non-Darkfriend. There was no restriction given that the souls had to belong to channelers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Interview: Oct 31st, 2005
KOD Signing Report - Ursula (Paraphrased)

Question: A man asked if the Dark One can resurrect anyone after death.

Robert Jordan: RJ answered that, yes, the Dark One can resurrect any soul, but probably doesn't want to bring back someone who hates him.


Crispin's Crispian 05-10-2012 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Curie 7 (Post 189070)
They've not given been given immortality, though. They've just been promised it. The question is, will the Dark One deliver if he wins?

Damn, I knew that was suspect when I posted. I should have checked. Oh well. :)



Quote:

RJ said that the Dark One can grab any soul (at least within the limits that we know regarding balefire and such), though he may not want to grab the soul of a non-Darkfriend. There was no restriction given that the souls had to belong to channelers.
I'm talking about something more specific, but maybe you're right. Maybe it isn't necessary to be able to channel, though see Ishara's post.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 189065)
What if that's not the only weakness associated with being able to channel?

Indeed, or what if that weakness Sheriam mentions is part of the same thing? We've pretty much guessed for decades that the Dark One's ultimate success depends in some way on Rand turning to the Shadow. The prophecy about him being "seizable" with Callandor is just more suggestive.

yks 6nnetu hing 05-11-2012 02:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 189041)
In a very detailed discussion we had on this years ago, bridge augmentation came up and it seems possible that either bridge or additional secondary organ would be capable of being augmented, since we know it can be shielded in some way (Asmodean) and also damaged but still functional, and healed improperly (Leane/Siuan) so as to diminish capability.

ah, a world where instead of cosmetic surgery there's bridge augmentation procedures! imagine the prices the Yellows could charge :eek:

Quote:

BTW - YKS, are you still doing your re-read? Would you like me to add you a sub-forum for your posts? I'm planning on doing a bunch, so it made more sense to organize them together. Let me know! (And to anyone else too!)
I am, finally making some progress, too. Was stuck in TGS for ages. Thing is though, I may need to start all over again the moment I finish because I've now forgotten bits again. A sub-forum just for meeee? I'm flattered :D But I don't feel the necessity to be honest. Whatever you think is best.

Tamyrlin 05-11-2012 04:33 AM

Found a flaw
 
I imagined the lack of a buffer would only affect the male channeler, but it appears that was wrong-headed. Okay, so Gentling as an advantage for the second reason seems like a dead end, but perhaps the first reason...but likely a dead end too.

I may be better served to stick to Rand being Gentled as far as a theory coming out of this discussion.


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