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-   -   TGH: Ch. 12 - Agelmar...a darkfriend? (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=6953)

Tamyrlin 05-13-2012 12:55 PM

TGH: Ch. 12 - Agelmar...a darkfriend?
 
Agelmar's reactions feel suspect, when he is visited by the Amyrlin. There are two attacks and the man is concerned about propriety...but in a pissed off kind of way as though no matter what he was supposed to keep the Amyrlin tied up as long as possible.

So...I have to wonder, and suspect anyone (because...well, that's the fun part of this re-read), is Agelmar a darkfriend?

The Temptation was too great.

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 5 - The Shadow in Shienar
"'The grave is no bar to my call,"' she translated, so softly she seemed to be speaking to herself. "The Horn of Valere, made to call dead heroes back from the grave. And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle." Abruptly she thrust the Horn back into its niche and closed the lid as if she could no longer bear the sight of it. "Agelmar pushed it into my hands as soon as the Welcome was done. He said he was afraid to go into his own strongroom any longer, with it there. The temptation was too great, he said. To sound the Horn himself and lead the host that answered its call north through the Blight to level Shayol Ghul itself and put an end to the Dark One. He burned with the ecstasy of glory, and it was that, he said, that told him it was not to be him, must not be him. He could not wait to be rid of it, yet he wanted it still."
Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 5 - The Shadow in Shienar
"Salvation." The Amyrlin laughed bitterly. "From the look in Agelmar's eyes, he didn't know whether he was giving away salvation or rejecting the condemnation of his own soul. He only knew he had to be rid of it before it burned him up. He has tried to keep it secret, but he says there are rumors in the keep already. I do not feel his temptation, yet the Horn still makes my skin crawl. He will have to take it back into his strongroom until I leave. I could not sleep with it even in the next room." She rubbed frown lines from her forehead and sighed. "And it was not to be found until just before the Last Battle. Can it be that close? I thought, hoped, we would have more time."
Then Liandrin plays her trick on Amalisa, making us think after we discover she is Black Ajah, that she must have been lying about her suggestion that Agelmar was a darkfriend.

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 5 - The Shadow in Shienar
"No!" As if some invisible support had vanished, Amalisa fell to her knees, and her head dropped. "Please, Liandrin Sedai, say you do not mean Agelmar. It cannot be him."
Then some odd statement from Agelmar to Rand.

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
"Do not let the Horn seize you, Rand," Agelmar said. "It can take hold of a man-I know how it can-and that is not the way. A man must seek duty, not glory. What will happen, will happen. If the Horn of Valere is meant to be sounded for the Light, then it will be."
He insists she stays after the attack and the stealing of the Horn, with the Dark One stirring, and what he recently saw at the Gap...

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 9 - Leavetakings
"But, Mother," Agelmar was protesting, "you've had no time to rest from the journey here. Stay at least a few days more. I promise you a feast tonight such as you could hardly get in Tar Valon."
Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 9 - Leavetakings
Ingtar and the other men shifted in their saddles, preparing to dismount and kneel, but she motioned them to stay as they were. Leane stood at her shoulder, and Agelmar a pace back. From his glum face, he appeared to have given up trying to convince her to remain longer.
Then the Amyrlin is attacked. Hmm...she won't stay to eat, what would cause her to stay?

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 9 - Leavetakings
Agelmar moved closer. "Mother, if there are Whitecloak killers about, or Darkfriends, you must allow me to send men with you. As far as the river, at least. I could not live if harm came to you in Shienar. Please, return to the women's apartments. I will see them guarded with my life until you are ready to travel."
Was this also to delay Ingtar?

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 9 - Leavetakings
"Be at ease," she told him. "This scratch will not delay me a moment. Yes, yes, I will gladly accept your men as far as the river, if you insist. But I will not let this delay Lord Ingtar a moment, either. Every heartbeat counts until the Horn is found again. Your leave, Lord Agelmar, to order your oathmen?"
And he tries again to convince her, even though she is surrounded by Aes Sedai and Warders.

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern
"But, Mother," Agelmar protested, "this attempt on your life changes everything. We still do not know who sent the man, or why. An hour more, and I will have the bowman and the answers for you."
And a final suspect look.

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 12 - Woven in the Pattern
At her command the Warders scattered to their mounts, still wary, and the Aes Sedai, all but Leane, glided away from the palanquin to their own horses. As Egwene and Nynaeve turned to obey, a servant appeared at Lord Agelmar's shoulder with a silver chalice. Agelmar took it with a dissatisfied twist to his mouth.
It's all circumstantial, but with everything that happens, and the way Agelmar reacts (and possibly if I go back to how he treats them when they arrive in Fal Dara). It can be coincidence that Ingtar was chosen both times to go with them in TEoTW and then to seek out the Horn, but Agelmar acts odd...which may just be the Borderlander in him...but I wonder...

Ishara 05-14-2012 07:12 AM

Quote:

Then some odd statement from Agelmar to Rand.

Quote:

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 8 - The Dragon Reborn
"Do not let the Horn seize you, Rand," Agelmar said. "It can take hold of a man-I know how it can-and that is not the way. A man must seek duty, not glory. What will happen, will happen. If the Horn of Valere is meant to be sounded for the Light, then it will be."

I can't speak to the rest of them, but this one I always chalked up to Agelmar being very well educated and knowledgeable. Just because we (and by extension, Rand) didn't know that the Horn would call the Heroes to fight for whoever called them, and not just the Light, doesn't mean that Agelmar didn't know that.

After all, the boys didn't find out till just a few chapters earlier:
Quote:

TITLE:
Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 9 - Leavetakings
"You ride to find the Horn of Valere," she said, "and the hope of the world rides with you. The Horn cannot be left in the wrong hands, especially in Darkfriend hands. Those who come to answer its call, will come whoever blows it, and they are bound to the Horn, not to the Light."

The Unreasoner 05-15-2012 03:11 AM

I think these passages were meant to be noticed, but I think your conclusions are off. I really think that RJ just wanted to highlight the raw desire the Horn created. As I type this I notice the word desire and think of the ToM epilogue, but also of Lanfear's horn-horniness. The Horn is tempting. The Power is tempting. Lanfear is tempting. the True Power is very tempting. What's important is how a person handles the temptation. Perhaps 'think not of glory but of salvation' could be expanded a bit. 'think not of how awesome the TP makes you feel, just use it and kill the DO already!' says the Creator to Moridin or Rand.

Agelmar may not have been trying to stall the Amyrlin's departure, but the Horn's.

Although he may turn out to be a DF. the Amalisa quote is certainly suggestive at the least.

Tamyrlin 05-16-2012 09:39 AM

Could be.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unreasoner (Post 189385)
I think these passages were meant to be noticed, but I think your conclusions are off. I really think that RJ just wanted to highlight the raw desire the Horn created. As I type this I notice the word desire and think of the ToM epilogue, but also of Lanfear's horn-horniness. The Horn is tempting. The Power is tempting. Lanfear is tempting. the True Power is very tempting. What's important is how a person handles the temptation. Perhaps 'think not of glory but of salvation' could be expanded a bit. 'think not of how awesome the TP makes you feel, just use it and kill the DO already!' says the Creator to Moridin or Rand.

Agelmar may not have been trying to stall the Amyrlin's departure, but the Horn's.

Although he may turn out to be a DF. the Amalisa quote is certainly suggestive at the least.

I think I mentioned it in my previous post; it's quite clear that the type of people the Dark One goes after (and is successful in recruiting as followers) are the ones that are affected by the raw desire the horn created. Moiraine isn't affected that way, Rand isn't, Loial isn't, but we see Ingtar, Agelmar and Lanfear affected this way. Now, it is a circumstantial connection; power is tempting, but added together with Agelmar's odd desire for the Amyrlin to stay in the midst of such craziness, the last ditch attempt at the Amyrlin's life while she is departing, Liandrin's connection, and the recent darkfriend social that seems to have awakened all manner of darkfriend from a long sleep, Agelmar's behavior is suspect.

Ivhon 05-16-2012 10:25 AM

I dislike it because the parallels to Ingtar are too close. It would make Agelmar and Ingtar the same character with the same motivations from the same place. It would kindof ruin Ingtar's redemption and not add anything, IMO.

Perhaps his actions were written to be a red herring to the Ingtar plotline?

Tamyrlin 05-16-2012 10:44 AM

Red Herring works
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivhon (Post 189559)
I dislike it because the parallels to Ingtar are too close. It would make Agelmar and Ingtar the same character with the same motivations from the same place. It would kindof ruin Ingtar's redemption and not add anything, IMO.

Perhaps his actions were written to be a red herring to the Ingtar plotline?

I'd accept that, if not for the eventual oddity of the Borderlanders moving south. Although, I may have to accept that too, depending on what happens in AMoL...that it really all was about that silly test...ugh.

The Unreasoner 05-17-2012 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivhon (Post 189559)
I dislike it because the parallels to Ingtar are too close. It would make Agelmar and Ingtar the same character with the same motivations from the same place. It would kindof ruin Ingtar's redemption and not add anything, IMO.

Perhaps his actions were written to be a red herring to the Ingtar plotline?

Or a foil. If every good guy is immune and every bad guy is not, where is the gray area RJ so loved?


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