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Tamyrlin 05-25-2012 12:34 AM

TGH: Ch. 33 - Mat's Betrayal not on Purpose
 
Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 33 - A Message From the Dark
"I know," Rand said. But how long before he tells somebody what I am, not even meaning to? He could not believe Mat would betray him on purpose; there was that much of their friendship left, at least. "Loial, boost me up where I can see over the wall."
I know we've discussed Mat and betrayal because of his reaction after coming out of the Portal Stone, but I thought Rand's phrasing here was good: not on purpose.

Which made me think of a quote later on:

Quote:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 34 - The Wheel Weaves
"Do not ruin what convincing you have managed to do. I shall not sound the Horn of Valere. When I return to Seanchan, I shall present it to the Empress as the chiefest of my trophies. Perhaps the Empress will sound it herself."
Mat, horn, Tuon, Heroes of the Horn fight on the behalf of the Seanchan? Ok, loony, but a fun mix of betrayal, yet not being something purposeful.

GonzoTheGreat 05-25-2012 03:59 AM

Yeah, if for no other reason than that it wouldn't work for Tuon. At least, not as long as Mat is alive.

Terez 05-25-2012 09:11 AM

Unless, of course, the link was broken when he died.

Enigma 05-25-2012 09:25 AM

I think we will have to wait and see about Mat's death breaking the link. Technically he died twice. The first was in the waste and was brought back by Rand using CPR. Rahvin's death by balefire probably reestablished the link but who knows.

Is the Horn still in Tar Valon? If so does Mat know where to get it and I can't see Mat just walking down the corridors to the storerooms without anyone stopping him and if he told them he wanted the Horn would Egwene give it to him?

It would be cool if he blew the Horn brought back Hawkwing to the Seanchan court and got the old king to say what he thought of damane and slavery.

Ishara 05-25-2012 09:33 AM

Except no one really knows (except him and Rand) that he died in Caemlyn, and everyone is still behaving and betting on the fact this his link to the Horn is still intact - including him.

Meaning, it's not altogether too likely that there will be an opportunity for anyone to test that theory out in a practical way.

Plus, we have to remember that Hawkwing sort of hated the Aes Sedai - I'm not convinced he'd have a huge problem with the damane... Channelers were his one (cultivated) blind spot for a man consumed with the idea of justice for all.

GonzoTheGreat 05-25-2012 09:45 AM

On the other hand, his hatred for AS was at least in part based on Ishamael's manipulations, which will have faded away now that he's dead. Of course, another part was based on knowing AS, but there he's no different than Mat, I think.

Terez 05-25-2012 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 190542)
Except no one really knows (except him and Rand) that he died in Caemlyn, and everyone is still behaving and betting on the fact this his link to the Horn is still intact - including him.

Meaning, it's not altogether too likely that there will be an opportunity for anyone to test that theory out in a practical way.

We're talking about Tuon, who believes she has a divine right to blow it, and is supposedly attacking the Tower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 190542)
Plus, we have to remember that Hawkwing sort of hated the Aes Sedai - I'm not convinced he'd have a huge problem with the damane... Channelers were his one (cultivated) blind spot for a man consumed with the idea of justice for all.

In the afterlife he will know that he had been manipulated into hating Aes Sedai, and he'll probably recognize exactly who it was who was manipulating him. It will definitely be interesting to see what he has to say about it. Assuming he's there. He might have been spun out, in which case the Seanchan will implode because Tuon isn't pregnant yet.

GonzoTheGreat 05-25-2012 10:05 AM

She might be pregnant by the time she blows that horn.
Though probably not far enough along, I grant.

Terez 05-25-2012 10:06 AM

Yeah, I considered that. The two must be as one, though. It is known.

Tamyrlin 05-25-2012 10:21 AM

I was thinking
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190537)
Unless, of course, the link was broken when he died.

That.

Or, as Tuon's property, he is forced to blow the Horn on her behalf. Then, Hawkwing comes back and fights on behalf of his descendants/people.

Terez 05-25-2012 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 190553)
I was thinking...That.

Somehow, I think Gonzo was too. He gets bored, you know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 190553)
Or, as Tuon's property, he is forced to blow the Horn on her behalf.

Or maybe, as Tuon's "property", he does it because he bloody well wants to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 190553)
Then, Hawkwing comes back and fights on behalf of his descendants/people.

This, I like. And it's part of why I like the idea of the truce happening after Rand dies, aside from the fact that Nicola's Foretelling strongly implies it.

Davian93 05-25-2012 12:48 PM

I have no doubt that Mat would love Tuon to blow his horn and would not see it as a betrayal of Rand.

Terez 05-25-2012 01:37 PM

But would Rand see it as a betrayal? That is the question.

Tomp 05-25-2012 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 190563)
I have no doubt that Mat would love Tuon to blow his horn and would not see it as a betrayal of Rand.

Was that an intended double meaning?

BTW
How will the Seanchan react to Hawkwing?
Will he lead them into battle?

Davian93 05-25-2012 02:56 PM

If I can make a double entendre, I will 99.9% of the time do so.

I think the Seanchan will prostrate themselves if Hawkwing appears on the field.

Awkward moment: Does Hawkwing ask Rand for his sword back?

Terez 05-25-2012 03:06 PM

Why would he? He has one too. I want Logain to ask for his sword back.

Crispin's Crispian 05-25-2012 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190580)
Why would he? He has one too. I want Logain to ask for his sword back.

I was wondering about this the other day. Where do the Heroes get their legendary weapons? Are they only Tel'aran'rhiod versions? What happens when the Dream version meets the real version?

Terez 05-25-2012 03:39 PM

It's Tel'aran'rhiod. They can do stuff with their brains.

Enigma 05-25-2012 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishara (Post 190542)
Plus, we have to remember that Hawkwing sort of hated the Aes Sedai - I'm not convinced he'd have a huge problem with the damane... Channelers were his one (cultivated) blind spot for a man consumed with the idea of justice for all.

That is only partially true. At the begining Hawkwing seemed to have frosty relations with the Aes Sedai. From what I remember of the guide the False Dragon around that time had taken over half the continent and Hawkwing was the only one able to match his leadership abilities. He led one last battle against the False Dragon whose name I can't remember and there the AS captured him.

Now presumably Hawkwing had at least a working relationship with the AS at that stage as he needed them to shield the False Dragon and they needed Hawkwings' soldiers and general abilities to defeat the False Dragon's army.

They escorted the False Dragon to Tar Valon were he was gentled but the Amrylin was pissed at Hawkwing and the AS who captured the False Dragon. I gather she was pissed because any ruler was only suppost to bring a small force to Tar Valon but for security Hawkwing brought his full army. The White Tower didn't like having its need for Hawkwing's help rubbed in its face.

The WT plotted against Hawkwing inderectly getting other nations to attack and that in turn lead to Hawkwing's rise to empire. Now I think the guide said that in the pease after Hawkwing took over the continent a lot of Aes Sedai acted as Governors for Hawkwing.

It was only when Ishamael showed up and started to poison Hawkwing's mind that the AS might have killed his wife and were up to no good that he declared war on Tar Valon.

That to me says that Hawkwing had mixed views on female channelers. Not to mention that if brought back by the Horn Hawkwing would have access to all his past lives memories.

He may harbour a certain coolness to the Aes Sedai but everyone said Hawkwing was hard but just so I suspect he would be horrifed by the idea of damane.

Crispin's Crispian 05-25-2012 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190584)
It's Tel'aran'rhiod. They can do stuff with their brains.

Somewhat relevant:


http://t.qkme.me/357e8r.jpg

greatwolf 05-25-2012 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 190546)
On the other hand, his hatred for AS was at least in part based on Ishamael's manipulations, which will have faded away now that he's dead. Of course, another part was based on knowing AS, but there he's no different than Mat, I think.

Mat=Hawkwing? Hmmmm. But even if he isn't hawkwing reborn, he ought to have hawkwing's memories as one of the best commanders of all time. Why doesn't he? Or is it he just doesn't realize it?

That's off topic though, what I think is that Hawkwing didn't show much dislike of AS or support for damane or seanchan at Falme. He was "bound" to the horn and from what happened, to the Dragon as well.

I've always thought that event was part proof that LTT is bound to all three boys rather than just Rand. But it might just be that Suian was wrong about the horn and the HotH are bound to fight for the light irrespective of who blows the horn.

eht slat meit 05-25-2012 09:47 PM

Given that Moiraine's not in the loop regarding Mat's deaths and probably doesn't have a reason to believe it should work for them, I could see her quite effectively conning Mat into using the Horn to secure a truce (rather than an alliance) between the Seanchan, Rand, and the Tower.

Of course, were the Seanchan to actually blow the Horn and get some Heroes for their effort, I suspect Mat would count that a betrayal, particularly if he thinks Rand doesn't have the Horn for the Last Battle.

BlueGray 05-26-2012 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 190600)
Mat=Hawkwing? Hmmmm. But even if he isn't hawkwing reborn, he ought to have hawkwing's memories as one of the best commanders of all time. Why doesn't he? Or is it he just doesn't realize it?

That's off topic though, what I think is that Hawkwing didn't show much dislike of AS or support for damane or seanchan at Falme. He was "bound" to the horn and from what happened, to the Dragon as well.

I've always thought that event was part proof that LTT is bound to all three boys rather than just Rand. But it might just be that Suian was wrong about the horn and the HotH are bound to fight for the light irrespective of who blows the horn.

Mat has lots of memories of fighting Hawkwing, but none from Hawkwing. I think he noted this fact specifically at some point. However the Eelfinn gather memories, Hawkwing was not a participant.

Tuon also commented to Mat that finding the Horn Sounder is as important as finding the Dragon Reborn. She knows the horn was sounded at Falme and I assume it isn't too far fetched that she knows the tie between sounder and horn. I assumed that meant she wanted both the Horn Sounder and the Dragon Reborn serving under her; that she didn't intend to be the Horn Sounder.

Datakim 05-28-2012 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enigma (Post 190592)
It was only when Ishamael showed up and started to poison Hawkwing's mind that the AS might have killed his wife and were up to no good that he declared war on Tar Valon.

That to me says that Hawkwing had mixed views on female channelers. Not to mention that if brought back by the Horn Hawkwing would have access to all his past lives memories.

He may harbour a certain coolness to the Aes Sedai but everyone said Hawkwing was hard but just so I suspect he would be horrifed by the idea of damane.

He considered Rand to be LTT basically and still there was the implication that the two of them or their souls atleast were friends. And LTT was the leader of the Aes Sedai. Its also likely that Ishamael used compulsion on Hawkwing, and that compulsion would not be present in the spirit version. So I think you are right in the view that Hawkwing would be utterly repulsed by what the Seanchan do. He might even be aware that their entire culture was create by the shadow (Ishamael was the one who sent the original expedition).

What I wonder more, is whether or not the horn could be blown in non-combat situations. For example, could Mat fetch the horn from the White Tower, march into Ebou Dar, greet his wife and all the other nobles there, and then suddenly pull out the horn and blow it. Would Hawkwing appear, even though there was no battle to be fought? And if he did, would his words have enough impact to convince the Seanchan to either join with Rand or abandon the Damane system or both.

Heinz 05-30-2012 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 190548)
In the afterlife he will know that he had been manipulated into hating Aes Sedai, and he'll probably recognize exactly who it was who was manipulating him. It will definitely be interesting to see what he has to say about it. Assuming he's there. He might have been spun out, in which case the Seanchan will implode because Tuon isn't pregnant yet.

While paying attention to another thread from the general board I've begun to wonder if this is how an effective truce - which I believe has to address the damane issue - can come about. The overall assumption has always been the sole purpose was for the Heroes to fight when the Horn is sounded. What if Hawkwing telling Tuon how it's going to be is also a critical part to winning the Last Battle?

It has just been an idle speculation, I don't really think there's much to build on.



And re: Mat being Hawkwing reborn.. not possible as I understand it, since Mat is Mat, and Hawkwing was present in Hero form at Falme.

Terez 05-30-2012 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heinz (Post 190952)
While paying attention to another thread from the general board I've begun to wonder if this is how an effective truce - which I believe has to address the damane issue - can come about.

It comes up a lot, but I really hope not. It would be disappointing to solve a series-long problem with something as easy as that. I have no doubt the Horn will play a part, but I think the resolution of the conflict will mostly stem from Mat and Tuon's marriage, and I'm fairly sure Egwene will be involved.

Abbaaddon 07-03-2012 05:19 AM

Quote:

in which case the Seanchan will implode because Tuon isn't pregnant yet.
Would it mean that Tuon is bound to give birth to a new Hawkwing ? That is how I understood it, and given who his fahter would be, it wouldn't be surprising.

As for Hawkwing's appearance on the battlefield, I'm sure there will be enough signs to make even the most stubborn and uninventive Seanchan recognize their ancestor (something about a sword and a crown or so I'm told). Now, Tuon has been quite opened, if I daresay, to this side of Aryth Ocean way of thinking thanks to Mistress Aran and Mat. She could have, for once in a while, an understanding and useful reaction that would change from the usually "Don't be silly, Toy."

Hugin "Poppa" Cauthon 09-07-2012 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greatwolf (Post 190600)
But it might just be that Suian was wrong about the horn and the HotH are bound to fight for the light irrespective of who blows the horn.

I think they're bound to the Dragon, regardless of who blows the Horn and/or for which side. When Mat blew it, they showed up, but wouldn't do more than talk until the Dragon Banner was out for them to follow.

Some Randland beliefs have been proven wrong. Some AS certainties have been proven wrong. Why should it be absolutely true that the Heroes will fight for anyone who blows the Horn?

This also falls in line with any ideas of Mat blowing the Horn in a non-battle situation. Because that's exactly what happened - Mat blew the Horn, the Heroes showed up, and everyone had a nice chat until the Banner came out. Horn - Banner = Heroes - battle = potentially enlightening conversation.

Stormchi 10-04-2012 08:32 AM

Where mah bannahs at?
 
I got the impression that the hero's needed the banner to participate in the fight, like the horn called them, and then they follow the Dragon's banner into battle. Otherwise I don't know why the Aes Sedai from the age of legends, would hide it under the eye of the world... speaking of which, whatever happened to that banner?

I can just see the armies of the world gathered together at Shayol Ghul, the last battle starting, Mat blows the horn, the heroes show up, just in time to watch the people of the world get eaten by trollocs because someone forgot to take the banner off one of the towers in Cairhien.

(Also no Traveling cause it's Shayol Ghul)

Weiramon 10-04-2012 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormchi (Post 201209)
I can just see the armies of the world gathered together at Shayol Ghul, the last battle starting, Mat blows the horn, the heroes show up, just in time to watch the people of the world get eaten by trollocs because someone forgot to take the banner off one of the towers in Cairhien.

(Also no Traveling cause it's Shayol Ghul)

Burn my eyes, the Lord Dragon's banner should fly above the Stone. Unless Lord . . . I mean King Darlin should take it down for the Lord Dragon to fetch in the middle of the night.

As for Traveling to Shayol Ghul, of course that's ridiculous. You may as well claim one of the Forsaken did that shortly after the Lord Dragon conquered Andor and killed Queen Morgase.

FelixPax 10-30-2012 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abbaaddon (Post 193609)
Would it mean that Tuon is bound to give birth to a new Hawkwing ? That is how I understood it, and given who his fahter would be, it wouldn't be surprising.

Tuon, now known as Fortuona has wed Matrim Cauthon, who is Artur Hawkwing reborn.

Remember what Lord Turak told Padan Fain?
Quote:

He did not sound as if he expected answers, and in any case, he did not pause for them. I stand twelfth in line of succession to the Crystal Throne. If I kept the Horn of Valere, all between myself and the throne would think I meant to be first hereafter, and while the Empress, of course, wishes that we contend with one another so that the strongest and most cunning will follow her, she currently favors her second daughter, and she would not look well on any threat to Tuon. If I sounded it, even if I then laid this land at her feet, and every woman in the White Tower leashed, the Empress, may she live forever, would surely believe I meant to be more than merely her heir.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 34 "The Wheel Weaves" -- Padan Fain point of view
Indeed. Who blew the Horn of Valere? Who can leash every single woman of the White Tower?

Matrim Cauthon has blown the Horn.
Matrim Cauthon will 'leash' every single woman of the White Tower.

Artur Hawkwing was a King, Matrim Cauthon shall too.

Tylin was right. Matrim is one popular ta'veren, with women.

FelixPax 10-30-2012 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stormchi (Post 201209)
I got the impression that the hero's needed the banner to participate in the fight, like the horn called them, and then they follow the Dragon's banner into battle.

Indeed, the Banner was required to be seen by the Heroes at Falme. Why?

Answer: The true blind Dragon soul was not present at Falme. Valan Luca was not in the party of Rand, Perrin, Mat Cauthon.


Birgitte knows exactly who the true blind Dragon Reborn is: Valan Luca.

Birgitte is valiant, Valan is valorous.

GonzoTheGreat 10-31-2012 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FelixPax (Post 203006)
Tuon, now known as Fortuona has wed Matrim Cauthon, who is Artur Hawkwing reborn.

Then which one was a fake, an impostor, a conman intending to do who knows what?
Was it Mat Cauthon who blew the Horn at Falme, or was it Artur Hawkwing who appeared in response to that?
They can't be both the same soul, as in that case the Horn wouldn't have recalled Hawkwing.


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