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Zombie Sammael 08-16-2014 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 223194)
But that was just Egwene being Egwene, wasn't it? :p

BTW, what evidence is there for Verin being a high ranking BA member?
That she's BA is clear (unless she lied about that) but I don't remember her being in the council, and I can't remember any references to other ranks in the BA either.

It is reasonable to think that some degree of rank must have been achieved by her in order to compile such a comprehensive list of members. A new or lower ranked member would not have been trusted enough to be able to do so.

GonzoTheGreat 08-16-2014 09:11 AM

She wasn't a new member; she'd been part of the organization for four score minus ten years. She was unusually observant, and spent much of her time studying the membership of the BA.
True, having been a high ranking member could have helped, but it would also have increased the risk, considering the way in which they would've vied for those posts.

Edited to add:
I'm not saying that she definitely wasn't a high ranking BA member, merely that it requires more than "she might have been" to settle that question.

rand 08-18-2014 02:22 AM

The Aes Sedai let Egwene into the Accepted ter'angreal knowing full well that something is wrong with it. Apparently the White Tower is run by the same board of governors as Hogwarts.

Assuming the Accepted ter'angreal shows you real versions of your parallel selves in various mirror worlds, are Egwene's first vision (of her being married to Rand in Emond's Field) and Rand's vision from the Portal Stone in tGH from the exact same mirror world? The wording of Rand's headaches and channeling is almost exactly the same, iirc.

Why is the vision of Caemlyn in ruins considered "what is" (ie, the present)?

Sheriam reacts oddly when Egwene brings up the 13x13 turning. Is there any evidence that she herself was turned?

Sheriam also seems to lie in this scene:
Quote:

tDR 22
"It [the turning] took thirteen Dreadlords--darkfriends who could channel--weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today."
Based off of Sheriam's own definition, all the Black Ajah members are Dreadlords, and so they obviously still exist.

Egwene also more or less blurts out to Sheriam that Rand can channel:
Quote:

tDR 22
"I couldn't, Rand," she whispered. "I couldn't. Please forgive me,"
[...]
"He said they could turn him to the Shadow," Egwene mumbled. "He said the Myrddraal and the Dreadlords could force him."
Maybe this is why Sheriam stumbles?


In her final vision thing Egwene punches Elaida's friend in the face and thinks, "Thank you, Perrin, for showing me how to do that. But you didn't tell me how much it hurts when you do." Is this Egwene's thought from real life, or from the ter'angreal? In either case, is it supposed to foreshadow something? I don't remember Perrin punching someone in the face, and it doesn't seem like something Perrin would have taught Egwene back in Emond's Field.

What was Alanna after when she tried to get kitchen punishments alongside Egwene? I know she seems kind of obsessed with Rand, but as an AS to an Accepted, she could ask that anytime. I'm guessing Siuan's explanation of "because she's from Arafel and that's how they roll" isn't necessarily correct.

Why does Lanfear (as Else) clearly need to avoid being close to Mat? I know if he touched her he would feel that she wasn't really a plump girl, but she doesn't seem to want to even get within a certain radius of him. Is it something to do with what she channeled at him?

Do we know where Mat's luck is from officially? I know some people think Lanfear did it, and it does seem to only really kick in at this point...

If Else has been gone from the Tower for 10 days, how does Lanfear pose as her? Wouldn't people wonder why Else was still there after having been dismissed a while ago?

Egwene dreams of Whitecloaks binding her father's hands. Is this just a generic reference to the WCs in the Two Rivers in tSR? Cause Bran doesn't get captured, does he?

Verin personally wrote "DANGEROUS AND ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL" in the notes regarding the balefire wand. Did she read a warning about it somewhere else, or has she personally used it? Is that how she got a permanent scar from TAR? (I know that BF wouldn't just leave a scar, but whatever...)

When Egwene goes into TAR for the first time, she finds Perrin in a room with Hopper. Which is fine. But Perrin is holding himself chained to a black stone pillar. What's this?

I know it's all but confirmed (or maybe is confirmed) that Sylvie is Lanfear, but I find it odd that Lanfear disguises herself as an ugly, loony old lady here--and actually acts the part. Even when she's being Selene or Else in other parts of the story, she doesn't really try to act differently from her normal arrogant self.

GonzoTheGreat 08-18-2014 02:54 AM

Lanfear does act somewhat differently than her normal self when she's in the Waste. Until she decides to skin Kadere and throw a hissy fit, at least.

Terez 08-18-2014 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
Assuming the Accepted ter'angreal shows you real versions of your parallel selves in various mirror worlds, are Egwene's first vision (of her being married to Rand in Emond's Field) and Rand's vision from the Portal Stone in tGH from the exact same mirror world? The wording of Rand's headaches and channeling is almost exactly the same, iirc.

I think the Accepted test probably draws from Mirror Worlds but isn't strictly tied to them. There is more detail I might go into later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
Why is the vision of Caemlyn in ruins considered "what is" (ie, the present)?

Present fears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
Sheriam reacts oddly when Egwene brings up the 13x13 turning. Is there any evidence that she herself was turned?

She wasn't. People who are turned are noticeably not human any more. Besides, she gives her reasoning for joining in TGS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
What was Alanna after when she tried to get kitchen punishments alongside Egwene? I know she seems kind of obsessed with Rand, but as an AS to an Accepted, she could ask that anytime.

She probably thought she'd be more likely to get helpful answers that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
Do we know where Mat's luck is from officially? I know some people think Lanfear did it, and it does seem to only really kick in at this point...

It's a product of his being healed from the dagger's influence. I seem to remember this was confirmed, either on tour or in the notes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
If Else has been gone from the Tower for 10 days, how does Lanfear pose as her? Wouldn't people wonder why Else was still there after having been dismissed a while ago?

You just answered an earlier question. Else was convenient because she was known and only some Aes Sedai and a few others would know she had been sent away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
Egwene dreams of Whitecloaks binding her father's hands. Is this just a generic reference to the WCs in the Two Rivers in tSR? Cause Bran doesn't get captured, does he?

In the sense of the expression, his hands were tied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
Verin personally wrote "DANGEROUS AND ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO CONTROL" in the notes regarding the balefire wand. Did she read a warning about it somewhere else, or has she personally used it?

That was what was learned from it being studied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223206)
When Egwene goes into TAR for the first time, she finds Perrin in a room with Hopper. Which is fine. But Perrin is holding himself chained to a black stone pillar. What's this?

He's trying to keep himself from becoming a wolf.

Davian93 08-18-2014 08:31 AM

Quote:

In her final vision thing Egwene punches Elaida's friend in the face and thinks, "Thank you, Perrin, for showing me how to do that. But you didn't tell me how much it hurts when you do." Is this Egwene's thought from real life, or from the ter'angreal? In either case, is it supposed to foreshadow something? I don't remember Perrin punching someone in the face, and it doesn't seem like something Perrin would have taught Egwene back in Emond's Field.
Most logical answer...both Perrin and Egwene grew up in the village and it was a very small village. Unlike Rand who only got into town once in a while as he was way out in the Westwood, Perrin literally grew up only a few houses away from Egwene as he was the blacksmith's apprentice. Thus, he probably had a fairly to somewhat close platonic relationship with Egwene. At some point during that 10 years or so that he was an apprentice, he probably showed Egwene how to hit someone just for fun...never thinking she would ever need to do it or would want to do it. I mean, they likely saw each other every single day for years.

GonzoTheGreat 08-18-2014 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 223211)
Most logical answer...both Perrin and Egwene grew up in the village and it was a very small village. Unlike Rand who only got into town once in a while as he was way out in the Westwood, Perrin literally grew up only a few houses away from Egwene as he was the blacksmith's apprentice. Thus, he probably had a fairly to somewhat close platonic relationship with Egwene. At some point during that 10 years or so that he was an apprentice, he probably showed Egwene how to hit someone just for fun...never thinking she would ever need to do it or would want to do it. I mean, they likely saw each other every single day for years.

Bonus answer: he may have shown her off screen while they were walking towards their meeting with Elyas, so that if necessary she would have an extra defense method.

Davian93 08-18-2014 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 223212)
Bonus answer: he may have shown her off screen while they were walking towards their meeting with Elyas, so that if necessary she would have an extra defense method.

That is also a distinct possibility...given that we get 2-3 weeks compressed into maybe half a page of actual words...most of which have to do with snares, wild mushrooms and walking.

rand 08-19-2014 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 223208)
It's a product of his being healed from the dagger's influence. I seem to remember this was confirmed, either on tour or in the notes.

Ok, yeah, I guess Mat kind of thinks this too later. So my question now is why Healing Mat would give him this luck. Mat thinks they could have done it accidentally.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 223211)
At some point during that 10 years or so that he was an apprentice, he probably showed Egwene how to hit someone just for fun...

Yeah, I guess that's the best answer. Hopefully he wasn't practicing on either of the Luhhans...






I didn't read a whole lot today, but here's a few things.

When the three women come to visit Mat, his thoughts and Nynaeve's expression make it clear he's kind of notorious for breaking promises. But later on in another book, isn't it Nynaeve herself who says Mat would never break a promise?

Do we really know anything about Laras? I remember she got a cameo in aMoL, but I don't remember it being very significant. It seems like she's built up over the course of the series to be someone important, and then...nothing.

What's up with the dead Gray Man woman in Sheriam's bed? Was it just to scare Sheriam? Was it meant to kill Sheriam, but someone killed it first? It says there weren't any marks on the body, so Slayer likely didn't kill it.

Siuan says only about a dozen people in the Tower know that Callandor is a sa'angreal. Not sure if this is contradicted in later books, but I feel like this should be fairly common knowledge, at least among the Browns. If Siuan found out what it is, there must be a way for others to as well.

GonzoTheGreat 08-19-2014 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223224)
Do we really know anything about Laras? I remember she got a cameo in aMoL, but I don't remember it being very significant. It seems like she's built up over the course of the series to be someone important, and then...nothing.

Her place was usurped by Lini. Who, admittedly, also did absolutely nothing.

Davian93 08-19-2014 06:48 AM

Laras does do something super important...she helps Min, Siuan and Leane escape Tar Valon. That's the climax of her mini-story arc within the books.

rand 08-20-2014 02:02 AM

This is probably just a weird coincidence, but I thought this was neat foreshadowing:
Quote:

tDR 32
When Mat led a still-muttering Thom under an arch of polished redstone and down broad steps to the wharf, crewmen on one three-masted ship were unfastening the mooring lines not twenty paces away.
Like I said, it's probably nothing, but it would be a cool foreshadowing of the redstone doorways to Finnland.


In one point during his killing rampage in Tar Valon and then on the boat, Mat thinks to himself that he's never killed anyone before. But he killed a Seanchan guy with the ruby dagger at the end of tGH. Is this one of the "holes" in his memory? I thought he remembers this scene at another point, for some reason, though I could be wrong.

When Perrin sees Gaul in the cage, he wonders about him being so far from the Waste, and then thinks, But I saw one this side of the Spine of the World, and now I've seen two. Apparently he doesn't count the three Maidens he met in the stedding...

I know Rand's a good walker due to his Aiel blood, but there should be no way he can outrun the others, especially with Moiraine and Lan presumably moving as quickly as possible to catch up with him. He seems to go into TAR a lot on his journey...is he Traveling (sort of) in TAR without realizing it? (ie, his steps take him further than he realistically can, like what Perrin likes to do).

I forget, but when Perrin's on trial in ToM for killing the two Whitecloaks, does he ever think back to when he and Gaul slaughtered a dozen of them in Remen? Kind of like, Gee, I'm glad they didn't know about that other time...

When Faile tells Perrin that she thinks the Horn is in the ruins of Manetheren, Perrin recalls Moiraine telling the story of Manetheren. But as I already noted at the very beginning of this reread, Perrin wasn't there for that. He was standing around in the stables. I guess Moiraine could have filled him in at some point.

Are the woman Rand beheads and her guards all DFs? I know there's a Gray Man with them, but he could have just moved in when he saw Rand was distracted.

On the boat out of TV, one of Egwene's dreams is of "A woman playing with puppets." Is this Elaida, or someone else specific? Or just a generic dream saying people are going to be using other people like puppets?

I don't remember if I noticed before that Egwene can sense Aviendha's ability to channel almost right away. And later on it seems pretty clear that Aviendha has progressed at least to the point in her abilities where she can see the glow of saidar around Egwene. This took about half a year or more to happen to Egwene, so Aviendha has likely been channeling for a while by this time.

GonzoTheGreat 08-20-2014 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223239)
On the boat out of TV, one of Egwene's dreams is of "A woman playing with puppets." Is this Elaida, or someone else specific? Or just a generic dream saying people are going to be using other people like puppets?

Could be Verin. :p

Davian93 08-20-2014 07:50 AM

Quote:

When Faile tells Perrin that she thinks the Horn is in the ruins of Manetheren, Perrin recalls Moiraine telling the story of Manetheren. But as I already noted at the very beginning of this reread, Perrin wasn't there for that. He was standing around in the stables. I guess Moiraine could have filled him in at some point.
The three boys likely talk about that story repeatedly during their time together before they get separated at Shadar Logoth.

Quote:

I know Rand's a good walker due to his Aiel blood, but there should be no way he can outrun the others, especially with Moiraine and Lan presumably moving as quickly as possible to catch up with him.
A good distance runner (like an ultra-marathoner along the lines of what an Aiel would be) can easily outrun a horse in longer distances. Horses need to stop and eat while Rand can literally eat on the run, drink on the run, etc. Also, lots of motivation on his part.

GonzoTheGreat 08-20-2014 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 223244)
A good distance runner (like an ultra-marathoner along the lines of what an Aiel would be) can easily outrun a horse in longer distances. Horses need to stop and eat while Rand can literally eat on the run, drink on the run, etc. Also, lots of motivation on his part.

Some hunter-gatherer tribes hunted big game in that way: simply start chasing something (an elephant, for instance) and continue after it until it drops dead of exhaustion. That actually works, if your own condition is good enough. Caveat: if you try this on a big elephant, it may be a good idea to have some backup, in case the beast turns on you. Or in case a pack of hyenas shows up at your kill.

rand 08-20-2014 02:06 PM

I can see Rand beating them to Remen, but once they take the ship they should, as Moiraine says, cut days out of the overland journey.

Davian93 08-20-2014 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223252)
I can see Rand beating them to Remen, but once they take the ship they should, as Moiraine says, cut days out of the overland journey.

Not really all that much...given that Rand cut directly across from the river to Tear where they had to go south, stop a couple days and then go overland from Illian to Tear.

rand 08-21-2014 01:15 AM

When Egwene and co. get captured (for the first time (in this book)), the Fade recognizes Lan's ring and realizes they caught the right women. How does the Shadow know Nynaeve had Lan's ring with her?

From what Mat says when he gets there, Aringill is in Andor and Maerone across the river is in Cairhien. But if you look at any of the maps at the front of the book, Aringill and Maerone aren't in either nation. I'm guessing this is just a mistake with the map. The border between Andor and Cairhien seems kind of weird: instead of the border being the River Erinin (as is implied in the books), it kind of squiggles back and forth over the river.

After Moiraine leaves the Badger to search Illian, Perrin goes into the Wolf Dream and finds himself seemingly in the Aiel Waste. Is this just a random TAR thing, or his subconscious thoughts of Gaul, or...what?

I still find it odd that everyone talks as though the whole encounter with Aginor and Balthamel never happened. Moiraine doesn't mention them to Siuan at the beginning of tGH, Moiraine still thinks of there being 13 of them at the beginning of tDR, and again in Illian everyone starts freaking out again over the fact that the Forsaken may be free.

We find out that Sammael is controlling the Darkhounds around Illian. So presumably he sent the one that made it all the way to Remen, on the border of Murandy. What's Sammael's interest in Murandy (it's mentioned several other times as well)? I know it was used for Roedrad stuff, but now that that was debunked, what was Sammael planning?

How did Moiraine manage to get close to Sammael, who was presumably in one of the big palaces? And how did she recognize him as being Sammael? I suppose she could have used the OP to eavesdrop, but it seems unlikely anyone would actually be using his real name in conversation with him.

At the Queen's Blessing in Caemlyn, Mat doesn't remember the library at all. This could just be one of the holes in his memory, but later on he remembers Rand telling them about climbing the Palace wall to meet Elayne. And that scene took place in the library, iirc.

I have a couple questions about Rahvin. He's always described as "dark" by Mat. Does he just mean his hair, or is Rahvin black? If he is, why would anyone believe he's an Andoran lord?

Also, is Rahvin using Illusion to change his appearance? He's described as taller than Rand, as muscular as Perrin, and as handsome as Galad. All of which could be true, I guess, but maybe he's using the Power to make himself a bit more appealing to Morgase?

When Mat tells Morgase he's from a town north of Baerlon, she doesn't seem to believe him. I guess this is her recognition of a Two Rivers accent again?

Morgase asks Mat to tell Elayne about her "quiet talks with Sheriam in her study." Ignoring the mistake here (that Sheriam wouldn't have been Mistress of Novices back then), what is Morgase trying to say? Tallanvor thinks she's talking in code. Thom keeps going on about how Morgase is an amazing player of the Great Game, and earlier Thom tries, and fails, to find a code in Elayne's letter to Morgase. Are Elayne and Morgase using code to talk to each other?

Egwene has a dream about Rand confronting her, and she has a Seanchan woman by her side. I'm guessing this is one of the Egeanin things, but Rand was already gone to Shayol Ghul by the time the two Egs hooked up, right? I'm guessing this is just a mistake for aMoL.

I hope the Encyclopedia includes maps of Illian and Tear. Tear especially. In tDR, it's made clear that Tear (the city) is west of the Erinin (Egwene and co. get off on that side and never cross the river again). But in tSR and all the other books, iirc, it's all suddenly on the east side.

I'm not sure of this is foreshadowing or an allusion or anything, but when they're in Mother Guenna's house Egwene reads a book about "the humorous tales of Aleria Elffin," which sounds suspiciously like Aelfinn/Eelfinn.

GonzoTheGreat 08-21-2014 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 223258)
We find out that Sammael is controlling the Darkhounds around Illian. So presumably he sent the one that made it all the way to Remen, on the border of Murandy. What's Sammael's interest in Murandy (it's mentioned several other times as well)? I know it was used for Roedrad stuff, but now that that was debunked, what was Sammael planning?

Sammael may have considered conquering Murandy. His eventual goal was world domination, so he would've had to get it some time anyway. He probably decided that it was not worth the effort right then when he learned what a mess it was, politically speaking.

Quote:

At the Queen's Blessing in Caemlyn, Mat doesn't remember the library at all. This could just be one of the holes in his memory, but later on he remembers Rand telling them about climbing the Palace wall to meet Elayne. And that scene took place in the library, iirc.
He had probably just suppressed the memory of all those books. He can read, but he'd rather not be reminded of that.

Quote:

Egwene has a dream about Rand confronting her, and she has a Seanchan woman by her side. I'm guessing this is one of the Egeanin things, but Rand was already gone to Shayol Ghul by the time the two Egs hooked up, right? I'm guessing this is just a mistake for aMoL.
Egwene and Egeanin meet in the early parts of AMoL, before Rand has gone. Technically, Egeanin/Leilwin then starts serving Egwene, though the latter tries to ignore it for quite a while.

Quote:

I'm not sure of this is foreshadowing or an allusion or anything, but when they're in Mother Guenna's house Egwene reads a book about "the humorous tales of Aleria Elffin," which sounds suspiciously like Aelfinn/Eelfinn.
Neat find, this. Maybe JK Rowling could produce that book. :p

Davian93 08-21-2014 10:13 AM

Quote:

Aringill is in Andor and Maerone across the river is in Cairhien. But if you look at any of the maps at the front of the book, Aringill and Maerone aren't in either nation. I'm guessing this is just a mistake with the map. The border between Andor and Cairhien seems kind of weird: instead of the border being the River Erinin (as is implied in the books), it kind of squiggles back and forth over the river.
This has always bothered me too...but I can put it down to there being both a de jure border and a de facto one. Basically that entire area is a March for both sides and they are fighting over it nearly continuously so the fact that the river is the border in the text is just the current actual de facto border while other countries probably recognize the map border as the legal border...same with the Two Rivers legally being part of Andor despite not seeing a tax collector in over six generations or for those vast areas of Altara that, on the map, owe allegiance to Ebou Dar but in reality basically function as independent fiefdoms.

Quote:

I have a couple questions about Rahvin. He's always described as "dark" by Mat. Does he just mean his hair, or is Rahvin black? If he is, why would anyone believe he's an Andoran lord?
I always took it to mean "dark" like an Italian or Spaniard is "dark" compared to a northern European...but not African looking (as the Sea Folk and some Seanchan are described).

Quote:

How did Moiraine manage to get close to Sammael, who was presumably in one of the big palaces? And how did she recognize him as being Sammael? I suppose she could have used the OP to eavesdrop, but it seems unlikely anyone would actually be using his real name in conversation with him.
Remember that she did a ton of crash research on all of the Forsaken during her time at Vandenes/Andeleas home early in TGH. One of those texts could have had a physical description of him (shorter, blonde hair, distinctive facial scar) and she was able to put 2 and 2 together. "Hmm, there's a brand new lord here in Illian that appeared out of nowhere and I know for a fact he's not a real Illianer Lord...and hey, he matches that desciption of Sammael I read last year."

Quote:

Also, is Rahvin using Illusion to change his appearance? He's described as taller than Rand, as muscular as Perrin, and as handsome as Galad. All of which could be true, I guess, but maybe he's using the Power to make himself a bit more appealing to Morgase?
No, that's the joke. He's basically what Galad would be when he gets older, works out a bunch and has no compunction at all about using his physical appearance to whore himself out to every single woman in sight. OF course, in his case, he doesnt even bother taking chances so he just compells them and then rapes them repeatedly.

Quote:

Are Elayne and Morgase using code to talk to each other?

No. Elayne isn't because the letter is actually what it says it is...she just wants her mother to stop worrying/bothering the WT. Morgase isn't because she's literally too dazed and confused to do so due to Rahvin's compulsion. The Sheriam comment is her wishing she could escape to someone, in her mind, who could help her with advice the way "Sheriam" did when she was a Novice.


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