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Davian93 08-27-2014 08:43 AM

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I forgot there were more than the two access keys for the Choedan Kal (there's a broken one in the Panarch's Palace). What would happen if someone found another? Can two people channel through the CK at the same time with separate access keys?
No reason why not...hell, Asmo and Rand could both use the same key at the same time. No reason they couldn't both use separate keys to each draw power from it.

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Also, why does the access key seem familiar to Egwene? She didn't pass by the one in Cairhien. Is it just from a lecture in the WT or something?
She is subconsciously recognizing it as a ter'angreal/angreal attuned to Saidar. Same way Rand found his fat man angreal. There's basically an "atraction" between the channeler and objects used to channel their side of the OP.

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Faile doesn't seem to make any attempt to hide her name (the Bashere part, at least) from anyone, so does everyone but Perrin basically suspect who her Saldaean father really is?
Everyone who knows of Davram Bashere basically knows that she's either his daughter or closely related...so basically every noble she speaks to knows as Davram is one of the Great Captains and is quite famous as a result.

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In a flashback to the Trolloc attack, Mat remembers a Fade saying, "Time to die, Hornsounder." How did he know Mat blew the Horn? As far as I remember, the only DF that knows Mat blew the Horn is Verin...
The shadow has its own prophecies and sources of information...and Ishy clearly knows which is which too.

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I do remember that one of Rand's questions concerned cleansing the taint. What did they tell him? Did they just say "use the Choedan Kal things," or did they give him a detailed description of how to do it?
They tell him how but they dont specify using the Choedan Kal. If you'll recall, he originally hoped Callandor would be sufficient but had to give up that plan once Cadsuane explained how he couldn't safely use Callandor and direct the flows due to the wildness it induced.

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Something that also occurred to me...if Rand had gone into the doorway in Rhuidean and asked them to cleanse the taint for him, would they have the power to do that (consequences for Rand aside)? Could he ask them to defeat the DO for him?
They probably could (of course not in the way he would think given the 'gifts' they gave Mat)...but the price would be enormously high. They'd probably just say no as he wouldn't possibly be able to pay whatever price they'd require.

rand 08-27-2014 11:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 223454)
She is subconsciously recognizing it as a ter'angreal/angreal attuned to Saidar. Same way Rand found his fat man angreal. There's basically an "atraction" between the channeler and objects used to channel their side of the OP.

I guess that's it. But Egwene definitely makes it seem as if it's just familiar to her, rather than attracting her (or actually it does both):
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tSR 11
One thing actually seemed familiar, though she could not say why. Tucked into a corner of one of the cabinets, as if whoever put it there had been uncertain that it was worthy of display, lay the upper half of a broken figure carved from some shiny white stone, a woman holding a crystal sphere in one upraised hand, her face calm and dignified and full of wise authority. Whole, she would have been perhaps a foot tall. But why did she appear so familiar? She almost seemed to call to Egwene to pick her up.




When Nynaeve pretends to be an AS on the Sea Folk ship, she says she's of the Green Ajah. Why? Hasn't she been studying with the Yellows in the WT?

How is everyone surprised that Sea Folk women take their shirts off at sea? Even if mainland passengers on SF ships are rare, something like this should probably be common knowledge.

When Coine (the Sailmistress) explains about the Jendai Prophecy, she says this:
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tSR 19
"He can wield the One Power, so I have heard, and he holds the Sword That Cannot Be Touched. The Aiel have come over the Dragonwall to his call; I have seen several in the streets, and it is said they fill the Stone. The Stone of Tear has fallen, and war breaks over the nations of the land. Those who once ruled have returned, and been driven back for the first time. Prophecy is being fulfilled."
The Seanchan being driven back "for the first time" implies they'll be driven back again. Does this just refer to Rand's campaign against them in tPoD? The Seanchan are never really "driven back" again in the sense they were at Falme.


When Rand shoves Callandor in the Heart and causes an earthquake, Coine and all the Sea Folk start running around like crazy. While they're still checking the boat over for damage, Elayne and Nynaeve notice Thom and Juilin. Then Coine comes over and explains that Juilin wants passage to wherever they're going. But it seems unlikely Coine would have stopped to talk with Thom and Juilin while her ship was in possible danger. And the fact that Juilin says he wanted passage to wherever Elayne and Nynaeve were going means he wasn't on the ship before all this happened.

Thom says he's never heard of the name Shara before, so it likely isn't common knowledge outside the Sea Folk. But later in the series (aMoL especially, I think) all of a sudden everyone knows the name Shara.

I know the Aes Sedai kind of suspect the windfinders can channel, but how do they manage to miss the enormous weaves they use to control the weather? I know they're out to sea, but the weave stretches to the horizon...

So does the "who draws it out shall follow after" prophecy just refer to Narishma taking the sword out of the Heart of the Stone?

I'm not sure this makes sense for anything, but that prophecy's beginning (Into the heart he thrusts his sword, / into the heart, to hold their hearts.) could also sort of apply to Rand stabbing Ishamael in the hear at the end of tGH.

This is probably mentioned later in tSR, but how do Lanfear and Asmo know that Rand goes to the Waste, and how they know exactly where to find him? Does Lanfear find out through TAR or entering Rand's dreams?

I'm still curious if the Seia Doon Aiel (Black Eyes) are somehow named for the Red Veils in the Town. As in, somehow the knowledge got leaked and centuries later the cruelest Aiel society is still named after them.

Rand describes the Portal Stone in Tear as being three spans tall (about 18 feet). If it had been standing upright, how would anyone have been able to see the stuff at the top?

Are any of the Portal Stone symbols given in the series actual symbols of the places they take you too? Like, the symbol that gets them to Rhuidean is a triangle pointing left with a lightning bolt in it. Which in a vague sort of way could refer to Rand (the lightning) and Mat (left-facing triangle = "sinister" foxes) in Rhuidean. But that's a pretty big stretch considering the Stone was made before even the AoL.

Davian93 08-28-2014 08:01 AM

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Does this just refer to Rand's campaign against them in tPoD? The Seanchan are never really "driven back" again in the sense they were at Falme.
To be fair, Rand pretty much kicks their arse all the way from the Illian/Altara border to the suburbs of Ebou Dar in tPoD. They consider a major defeat at the time (of course, so does Rand ironically...which is more a nod by RJ to the fog of war).

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I know the Aes Sedai kind of suspect the windfinders can channel, but how do they manage to miss the enormous weaves they use to control the weather? I know they're out to sea, but the weave stretches to the horizon...
At sea level, the horizon is maybe 6-8 miles away...if you are on top of the mast, that might jump out to 10-15 miles or upwards of 20 if its a high mast. Once they're out to sea beyond the sight of land (the only place they will channel), no AS will ever see/sense it as its too far away.

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This is probably mentioned later in tSR, but how do Lanfear and Asmo know that Rand goes to the Waste, and how they know exactly where to find him? Does Lanfear find out through TAR or entering Rand's dreams?
Probably a combination of TAR and the fact that Rand, being ta'veren can be tracked with his effect on the Pattern if one knows how. Ishy knew how to do that and Lanfear likely did too...considering she was pretty much an expert on sensing the Pattern (she was chosen for the Bore project for a reason after all).

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Rand describes the Portal Stone in Tear as being three spans tall (about 18 feet). If it had been standing upright, how would anyone have been able to see the stuff at the top?
Some energetic fellow likely climbed it and took notes at some point or another...the same way historians did/do with things like Trajan's Column or the Egyptian Obelisks. Climbing gear did exist then afterall.

rand 08-29-2014 02:35 PM

How does Lan know so much about the Aiel? He mentions that he fought them in the Aiel War, and obviously we know he really did. But how would he have learned random things like Wise Ones being protected from harm while traveling anywhere in the Waste? He also firmly believed there were no cities in the Waste before seeing Rhuidean. Which is probably a common belief, but without having seen the Waste for himself it seems like a weird thing for Lan to boldly claim.

When Rand meets the Wise Ones above Rhuidean and asks to enter, he says "By the right of blood, I ask leave to enter Rhuidean, for the honor of our ancestors and the memory of what was." How did Rand learn what the formal password was to enter Rhuidean? I'm guessing it wasn't from a book, and I doubt Rhuarc just told him. At first I thought he might have just made it up to sound fancy, but right after he says it Bair calls it an "ancient form."

We're repeatedly told that entering TAR in the flesh is evil, one of the most abominable things you can do, and something that will tear away your humanity. Yet Perrin does it all the time. I guess Slayer smells sort of inhuman, but that's after extensive time spent in TAR in the flesh. And unless there's someone who can smell that lack of humanity, there's really no difference between Slayer and anyone else in regards to there "humanity."

Does Mat specifically have to say "I want" or "I wish" in order for the Eelfinn to give him something? Becasue technically the first two "requests" he makes are, "Burn your bones to ash, answer me!" Is this just ignored because it's frivolous, or should the Eelfinn have set themselves on fire and answered Mat's question about the Daughter of the Nine Moons?

Which makes me think...do the Eelfinn have the same ability as the Aelfinn to answer questions? Like, if you wish that they answer a certain question? What if, after they refused to answer Mat's questions, he had said "I wish you would tell me who the Daughter of the Nines Moons is, etc." Could they answer him, or would they have to consult with the Aelfinn or something?

In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.

The caravan of ter'angreal starts out at over 1,000 wagons, but by the end there are only a couple. What happened to everything else? Are we just to assume it was lost over the years, or did most of it end up in Tar Valon, Tear, Tanchico, etc?

It isn't clear during the visions, but does Rand even realize that the Way of the Leaf means Tinkers? I remember Perrin didn't have a clue what the Way was when he meets the Tinkers in tEotW, so I'm guessing Rand wouldn't either.

In one of the visions that takes place at the beginning of the Breaking (the one where Jonai sees Callandor and starts the journey to Rhuidean), Jonai's wife says "All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well." Which is almost the exact same thing the Windfinder Jorin says when Elayne promises not to tell the WT tower about her: "If it pleases the Light, all will be well. All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well, if it pleases the Light." Why do they use the same phrase? Was it just a common saying in the AoL that the Sea Folk still remember, or are the Sea Folk somehow related to the Aiel?

Okay, this is probably weird, but is Rand related to LTT? Assuming the people he follows in the visions of Rhuidean are his ancestors, Charn is the earliest we see. Charn is the somewhat crazy guy (at least his great-grandson thinks he is) who serves Mierin Sedai (Lanfear). He seems to remain loyal to her even when she becomes Lanfear, and he is eventually hung for it. So...is it possible Charn is Mierin's son with Lews Therin? I don't remember if we know much of anything regarding LTT and Lanfear's relationship, beyond the fact that it didn't end well. So is Rand his own grandpa, and is Lanfear (unknowingly) hitting on her great great great etc. grandson?

Why doesn't Rand notice the dragons on his arms after coming out of the columns? I know he has Mat and the dust monsters to worry about, but they're described as even being on the backs on his hands, right? Shouldn't he be able to see that plainly?

Rand and Mat were in Rhuidean for seven days. Does the dome of fog change time in Rhuidean, or did Rand and Mat each spend seven days in their respective ter'angreal?

Davian93 08-29-2014 08:38 PM

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When Rand meets the Wise Ones above Rhuidean and asks to enter, he says "By the right of blood, I ask leave to enter Rhuidean, for the honor of our ancestors and the memory of what was." How did Rand learn what the formal password was to enter Rhuidean? I'm guessing it wasn't from a book, and I doubt Rhuarc just told him. At first I thought he might have just made it up to sound fancy, but right after he says it Bair calls it an "ancient form."
It was very likely in one of the books he read in the Stone...thus why Bair mentioned that it was "an ancient form"...it was probably from a book that was a couple thousand years old.

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Does Mat specifically have to say "I want" or "I wish" in order for the Eelfinn to give him something?
Yes...that is likely part of the Bargain they made with humanity in exchange for answers.

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In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.
They were likely two of the very last pre-Breaking AS that sent the Aiel off in the first place...and knew to have them set up Rhidean in preparation for Rand's eventual visit. They would have known the Aiel given the mission they originally gave them

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The caravan of ter'angreal starts out at over 1,000 wagons, but by the end there are only a couple. What happened to everything else? Are we just to assume it was lost over the years, or did most of it end up in Tar Valon, Tear, Tanchico, etc?
Dead, robbed, killed, broke off, etc etc. With likely tiny portions of the original wagon train ending up in places like Tear, Tanchico, Ebou Dar, etc.

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It isn't clear during the visions, but does Rand even realize that the Way of the Leaf means Tinkers? I remember Perrin didn't have a clue what the Way was when he meets the Tinkers in tEotW, so I'm guessing Rand wouldn't either.
He did a TON of reading...he probably was able to put two and two together. Also, even if he didn't, he was getting a graduates level course in being a King by Moiraine later on so he was likely able to put it together even if he didnt immediately realize it.

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So is Rand his own grandpa, and is Lanfear (unknowingly) hitting on her great great great etc. grandson?
Highly, highly unlikely...especially given that neither LTT or Lanfear have Aiel coloring so genetically its highly unlikely and I'd imagine that if Lanfear had had a kid with him, that would have been mentioned.

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Rand and Mat were in Rhuidean for seven days. Does the dome of fog change time in Rhuidean, or did Rand and Mat each spend seven days in their respective ter'angreal?
I would imagine that time works differently in the ter'angreal...if for no other reason than both would die after 3 days without any water.

GonzoTheGreat 08-30-2014 04:05 AM

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Originally Posted by rand (Post 223550)
How does Lan know so much about the Aiel? He mentions that he fought them in the Aiel War, and obviously we know he really did. But how would he have learned random things like Wise Ones being protected from harm while traveling anywhere in the Waste? He also firmly believed there were no cities in the Waste before seeing Rhuidean. Which is probably a common belief, but without having seen the Waste for himself it seems like a weird thing for Lan to boldly claim.

Lan fought Aiel, both in the Aiel War and later in Shienar. He probably was smart enough to try to learn a bit about this opponent. He may not have thought of asking Tinkers, but gleemen and traders could move through the Waste. They would have been able to tell there were no cities there (with the possible exception of Rhuidean, which they all knew to avoid).

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In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.
They may have been two AS who were there because of some kind of prediction, like a Foretelling. But the construction of Rhuidean happened in the time of Hawkwing and the War of the Hundred Years, as there is a reference to his failed invasion of the Waste ("when Comran's greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall").

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In one of the visions that takes place at the beginning of the Breaking (the one where Jonai sees Callandor and starts the journey to Rhuidean), Jonai's wife says "All will be well, all will be well, and all manner of things will be well." Which is almost the exact same thing the Windfinder Jorin says when Elayne promises not to tell the WT tower about her: "If it pleases the Light, all will be well. All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of thing will be well, if it pleases the Light." Why do they use the same phrase? Was it just a common saying in the AoL that the Sea Folk still remember, or are the Sea Folk somehow related to the Aiel?
The Sea Folk may have picked it up from the Amayar, who were almost certainly another Aiel branch. Then again, it is indeed possible that it was a common AoL saying, or, more likely still, a saying that dates from the War of the Power, when "all being well" was something people fervently hoped for.

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So...is it possible Charn is Mierin's son with Lews Therin?
Extremely unlikely. First of all, there is no indication whatsoever that Mierin tried to use this to push any of LTT's buttons, and she surely would've had the sense to attempt such an approach. Second, LTT quite famously exterminated anyone who was even remotely related to him (hence the honorific "Kinslayer"); overlooking some of his direct descendants is not believable.

Davian93 08-30-2014 12:01 PM

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They may have been two AS who were there because of some kind of prediction, like a Foretelling. But the construction of Rhuidean happened in the time of Hawkwing and the War of the Hundred Years, as there is a reference to his failed invasion of the Waste ("when Comran's greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall").
I highly doubt they took 2500 years to decide to build Rhuidean and select clan chiefs that way...perhaps it was another invasion? One that led to no one ever trying to attack the Aiel again until Hawkwing got all ballsy and tried?

GonzoTheGreat 08-31-2014 03:27 AM

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Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 223588)
I highly doubt they took 2500 years to decide to build Rhuidean and select clan chiefs that way...perhaps it was another invasion? One that led to no one ever trying to attack the Aiel again until Hawkwing got all ballsy and tried?

Maybe. Then again, there are quite a lot of abandoned cities in desert regions, and they're nowhere near as well preserved as Rhuidean was if they are a couple of thousand years old and have been above ground for much of that time. So either the Aiel carried out frequent repairs (which does not seem to have been the case) or Rhuidean isn't as old as you think it is.

Weird Harold 08-31-2014 05:44 AM

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 223595)
Maybe. Then again, there are quite a lot of abandoned cities in desert regions, and they're nowhere near as well preserved as Rhuidean was if they are a couple of thousand years old and have been above ground for much of that time. So either the Aiel carried out frequent repairs (which does not seem to have been the case) or Rhuidean isn't as old as you think it is.

You're forgetting the mist barrier that prevented Asmodean from entering through TAR and otherwise hid/protected Rhuidean from detection and/or casual invasion.

GonzoTheGreat 08-31-2014 05:55 AM

That protects against random vandalism by bored youth, but it does not protect against sand storms, temperature differences (which can be fairly high in a desert climate), the occasional rain shower and earth quakes. If Rhuidean had been built right in the aftermath of the Breaking, then there would have been a significantly higher than "normal" number of earth quakes as a result of the settling down of tectonic plates and such in the first thousand years or more.
None of those things on its own would be very important in one single year, but if you pile on enough centuries than it does add up.

Marie Curie 7 08-31-2014 09:00 AM

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 223572)
They may have been two AS who were there because of some kind of prediction, like a Foretelling. But the construction of Rhuidean happened in the time of Hawkwing and the War of the Hundred Years, as there is a reference to his failed invasion of the Waste ("when Comran's greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall").

There are a number of things from the re-read questions that I've been meaning to comment on but haven't had time. This one is quick, though.

That wasn't the time of Hawkwing. It was "much earlier" (though no quantitation on that), per RJ:

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Originally Posted by RJ
Interview: Jun 16th, 1995
East of the Sun Con - Karl-Johan Norén (Paraphrased)


Robert Jordan
The invasion of iron-clad men into the Aiel Waste as reflected on in the ancestor-memory ter'angreal he said did not refer to Artur Hawkwing, but to a much earlier event.


Weird Harold 08-31-2014 10:20 AM

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 223597)
but it does not protect against sand storms, temperature differences (which can be fairly high in a desert climate), the occasional rain shower and earth quakes.

And you know this, How?

GonzoTheGreat 08-31-2014 12:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 223601)
And you know this, How?

When Rand and Mat first enter the city, it is unfinished and dusty, but nothing appears broken. If the dome provided full protection, then the city wouldn't have been dusty. If it had been left on itself for a long time, things would have started to break down. So the facts which we have supply us with (rather vague) upper and lower limits for when the city was build.

It doesn't tell us whether it was 300 years, 500 years, or 800 years before Rand and Mat came there, though the higher number seems less likely. But it does tell us that it wasn't very soon after the Breaking either.

For the other limit we have the book which Rand read. That tells us that 600 years ago a peddler tried to look at Rhuidean, and that in turn suggests very strongly that the city is older than that.

Combining those, I would guess that the peddler got his look at Rhuidean not all that long after the Jenn died out.
Do you have any evidence to suggest another dating?

Davian93 08-31-2014 01:05 PM

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Do you have any evidence to suggest another dating?
The interview quote that MC provided directly contradicts that...ie, the first invasion was long before Hawkwing. There's also the fact that the pillars give us a pretty solid genealogical history that is basically grandfather to grandson etc etc...giving us a rough estimate that way. Odds are the Jenn died out within a couple hundred years (at most) of the Aiel moving to the Waste.

The dome protected against 99% of the issues you mention and the dust there would be solely from inside the city, nothing more.

GonzoTheGreat 09-01-2014 03:54 AM

The debate in the previous couple of posts on the construction of Rhuidean arose because I hadn't bothered to check the interview database. Now I did (after someone politely slapped me around the ears with it), and I found that I'd gone off on the wrong tangent. So I will rereply:
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Originally Posted by rand (Post 223550)
In the first vision Rand has in the glass columns, he sees the construction of Rhuidean. There are two ancient Aes Sedai there. Who are they, and where did they come from? There weren't AS following the Aiel caravan around in all the other visions.

The explicitly made assumption that there weren't AS traveling with the Jenn is wrong:
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Originally Posted by TSR, Chapter 25, The Road to the Spear
"The end of the world, for all I know," Garam replied. "I am not sure there is a way across." He hesitated. "The Jenn have Aes Sedai with them. Dozens, I have heard. Does it not make you uneasy traveling close to Aes Sedai? I have heard the world was different once, but they destroyed it."

The Aes Sedai made Rhodric very nervous, though he kept his face blank. They were only four, not dozens, but enough to make him remember stories that the Aiel had failed the Aes Sedai in some way that no one knew. The Aes Sedai must know; they had seldom left the Jenn's wagons in the year since their arrival, but when they did, they looked at the Aiel with sad eyes. Rhodric was not the only one who tried to avoid them.

So there actually were four AS who accompanied the Jenn into the Waste, and two of those were probably still alive when Rhuidean was finished.

Kimon 09-01-2014 02:48 PM

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 223614)
The debate in the previous couple of posts on the construction of Rhuidean arose because I hadn't bothered to check the interview database. Now I did (after someone politely slapped me around the ears with it), and I found that I'd gone off on the wrong tangent. So I will rereply:

The explicitly made assumption that there weren't AS traveling with the Jenn is wrong:
So there actually were four AS who accompanied the Jenn into the Waste, and two of those were probably still alive when Rhuidean was finished.

It would help if we knew exactly when the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall, nonetheless, using Rand's trip, we can make a decent guess as to a date beyond the Breaking for Mandein's entrance into Rhuidean and to the date of its construction. Mandein says that his greatfather was Comran, and that Comran's greatfather was Rhodric. Rhodric was amongst the Aiel that crossed the Dragonwall, and this was also the time of their debt to the Cairhienin for the water-sharing. Rhodric's greatfather was Jeordam - his timeline marked the formation of the Maidens of the Spear. Jeordam's father was Lewin, who took up a spear, marking the schism between the Aiel and Jenn Aiel. Lewin's greatfather was Adan, during whose timeline the Aiel and the Tinkers split. Adan's father was Jonai. Jonai was the one originally sent out by the Aes Sedai.

So, probably around 150 years after Jonai they cross the Dragonwall, and another 150 or so years after that is the construction of Rhuidean. Which begs another question. Is there any chance that those Aes Sedai that Mandein sees might have been the same that sent Jonai?

Terez 09-01-2014 05:15 PM

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Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 223621)
It would help if we knew exactly when the Aiel crossed the Dragonwall, nonetheless, using Rand's trip, we can make a decent guess as to a date beyond the Breaking for Mandein's entrance into Rhuidean and to the date of its construction. Mandein says that his greatfather was Comran, and that Comran's greatfather was Rhodric. Rhodric was amongst the Aiel that crossed the Dragonwall, and this was also the time of their debt to the Cairhienin for the water-sharing. Rhodric's greatfather was Jeordam - his timeline marked the formation of the Maidens of the Spear. Jeordam's father was Lewin, who took up a spear, marking the schism between the Aiel and Jenn Aiel. Lewin's greatfather was Adan, during whose timeline the Aiel and the Tinkers split. Adan's father was Jonai. Jonai was the one originally sent out by the Aes Sedai.

So, probably around 150 years after Jonai they cross the Dragonwall, and another 150 or so years after that is the construction of Rhuidean. Which begs another question. Is there any chance that those Aes Sedai that Mandein sees might have been the same that sent Jonai?

RJ said that none of the Aes Sedai who were alive for the Strike were alive when the Breaking ended.

I did a rough timeline on this some years ago, based on given ages and other deliberately planted timeline clues. My estimate is that it was well over 200 years between Jonai's chronologically first scene and the time they crossed the Dragonwall.

The Breaking lasted somewhere between 239-344 years, and Jonai's earliest scene could have been as early as 70 BY (Breaking Years, which I made up). He was 63 years old and in the prime of his life, so lifespans were still long, but he hadn't been born yet on the day of the Strike and his father was only 16 years old.

My guess is that it was closer to 100 BY, maybe later but not much later than 120. That makes the minimum about 120 years from Jonai's earliest scene to the end of the Breaking, and a maximum of about 275 years.

Rhodric's scene is roughly 90 AB, based on the reference to building Tar Valon, and this is before they have crossed the Dragonwall. The decision to build Tar Valon was in 47 AB, and construction began in 98 AB, and was completed in 202, but Rhodric's greatfather Jeordam is old and white-haired before they cross the Dragonwall, and Jeordam only heard about the Breaking, the ground heaving, from the old ones. He had to have been at least 60 years old when they crossed the Dragonwall, so it was an absolute minimum of 180 years between Jonai's earliest scene and the crossing, possibly well over 300 years.

The guess of 150 years between Rhodric's scene and Mandein's is probably closer to the truth, but that would have been after 200 AB.

Davian93 09-01-2014 06:56 PM

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RJ said that none of the Aes Sedai who were alive for the Strike were alive when the Breaking ended.
I 100% believe you but do you have a link for that quote...I'm sure you do as quotemistress and all.

Again, I'm not asking out of doubt but so that I can read more on it myself. I remember that answer now that you mention it but I had totally forgotten it until now.

Terez 09-01-2014 09:05 PM

I can't find it, hopefully because I'm using the wrong search terms, but I remember the logic was that if any of them had survived, then none of the common weaves should have been lost.

Kimon 09-01-2014 09:24 PM

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Originally Posted by Terez (Post 223633)
I can't find it, hopefully because I'm using the wrong search terms, but I remember the logic was that if any of them had survived, then none of the common weaves should have been lost.

What had initially caught my attention was that quote that Gonzo provided that referred to them looking at Mandein and the others with "sad eyes". That comment made me look back and try to estimate an approximate span of time between Jonai and Mandein again, since that sadness would seem to indicate that they might personally remembered what the Aiel had been. Still, I suppose they could have just been old enough to have still known tales of the Aiel, or even have simply learned it from the Jenn - the same quote Gonzo provided indicated that they had been amongst the Jenn for a year. In any case, I assume their presence must have been connected to instructions left by Solinda's posse even if they were not themselves of Solinda's coven.


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