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rand 07-24-2014 11:13 PM

rand's reread
 
I decided to reread the entire series (or at least try). This will be the first time I've actually read it all straight through, with aMoL. I kind of stopped reading anything WoT related after aMoL came out, and I hadn't reread for a little while before even that came out. So anyway, I started feeling like I might as well start a reread. I plan on posting my thoughts on various subjects and themes, as well as writing a few scholarly articles on the series as I go along.

Or, more likely, I'll just post whatever random thoughts pop into my head.





The first thing I noticed, which I haven't paid much attention to before, is how little focus there is on Perrin at the beginning of tEotW. Rand does some stuff with Mat, but Perrin just kind of pops in a few times to say a few things. He's even relegated to the stable while everyone else in the entire village is out front listening to Moiraine's tale (which also makes it ironic that he later resurrects Manetheren, even though he didn't hear Moiraine talk about it). Maybe RJ gave Mat more time here because he knew Perrin would be a PoV character later on?

Another kind of random thing I'd never noticed before: the raven on top of the inn flies off more or less in the direction where we learn the Waygate is a few books later.

Is Rand's dream about Tar Valon in chapter 9 prophecy? I mean, all dreams are in WoT, but I don't see the significance of it. He goes to TV in ToM, but there isn't a Myrddraal in it, symbolic or otherwise (as far as I know). So is this just saying that everything would have been screwed if Moiraine took Rand to TV, as was her original plan? I'm also not sure what's up with the fact that Rand can't understand anyone in TV.

Was anyone else reminded of Dorothy dancing down the yellow brick road when Rand and everyone else in TV sings and dances off to the White Tower? :p

Terez 07-25-2014 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222527)
Is Rand's dream about Tar Valon in chapter 9 prophecy?

I asked Brandon about this. He said he was "pretty sure" Rand wasn't a Dreamer. I might have to dig in the notes again to see if I can find something on Rand's TEOTW dreams; there are others that have hints of prophecy. It may be that RJ simply hadn't figured out yet what he wanted to do with dreams, or decided who should have the talent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222527)
I mean, all dreams are in WoT, but I don't see the significance of it. He goes to TV in ToM, but there isn't a Myrddraal in it, symbolic or otherwise (as far as I know).

I saw it as being symbolic of their intended destination, as prefaced by the previous chapter, "A Place of Safety" (a concept referenced often in the dream). They were supposed to go there to be safe from the Shadow, but the dream showed him that the Shadow waited there too (in the form of the Black Ajah).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222527)
I'm also not sure what's up with the fact that Rand can't understand anyone in TV.

1) it's a dream; 2) it might be some kind of allusion to Rand's past-life memories; Rand accepts the adulation because he's in Lews Therin mode (accentuated by his recognition of Shayol Ghul, but not of Dragonmount, which is just a mountain), but the common tongue is foreign to him. Or, he's in Rand mode and they're speaking/singing the Old Tongue. There's ambiguity about whether he remembers dancing with Egwene or Ilyena. Overall it's pretty clear that RJ was trying to drop hints about Rand being the Dragon Reborn.

rand 07-26-2014 10:26 PM

Yeah, Rand's first dream definitely seems more like a real dream than an Ishamael dream. He falls several times but doesn't have any cuts or scrapes when he wakes up, so it's not like all the other dreams he has in tEotW.

I forgot (or maybe never noticed) that Taim's presence in Saldaea is mentioned this early on. At least, I assume that he's the source of the rumored "trouble" in Saldaea that everyone in Baerlon is talking about.

How were the rats at the Stag and Lion killed? Did Ishamael actually show up there, like he seemingly does outside Shadar Logoth later on? Can a Fade do this? Did Rand's ta'veren-ness make the cat somehow do it?

Granted, I don't remember a lot of the smaller details from the three Brandon books, but a lot of Min's viewings either seem unfulfilled or too ambiguous to really know. Is Mat's laughing face anything, or just a symbol that he's sort of a trickster type of character? Does Rand's hand getting blown off count as a "bloody" hand? What about the white hot iron?

Terez 07-26-2014 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222559)
Yeah, Rand's first dream definitely seems more like a real dream than an Ishamael dream. He falls several times but doesn't have any cuts or scrapes when he wakes up, so it's not like all the other dreams he has in tEotW.

There are a few other dreams that seem like real dreams, but they are short passages, not like the ch. 9 dream or the Ishamael dreams. Keep an eye out for those; some of them are interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222559)
I forgot (or maybe never noticed) that Taim's presence in Saldaea is mentioned this early on. At least, I assume that he's the source of the rumored "trouble" in Saldaea that everyone in Baerlon is talking about.

It's unclear. I have little doubt Taim was active at that point, since Liandrin informed Moiraine of him a little over two months later in Saldaea (having heard the news before leaving Tar Valon), but Domon's story is also a possibility. Supposedly Taim did not become a Darkfriend until he was released, so it's not clear that Domon's trouble was related to Taim. And this has a strong hint of Domon's trouble:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TEOTW 14
Ara's eyes went to the stools behind the tubs, where their clothes and belongings were stacked. He glanced at the bow, but lingered longest over Rand's sword and Perrin's axe. "Is there trouble downcountry, too?" he said abruptly. "In the Rivers, or whatever you call it?"

"The Two Rivers," Mat said, pronouncing each separate word distinctly. "It's the Two Rivers. As for trouble, why—"

"What do you mean, too?" Rand asked. "Is there some kind of trouble here?"

Perrin, enjoying his soak, murmured, "Good! Good!" Thom raised himself back up a little, and opened his eyes.

"Here?" Ara snorted. "Trouble? Miners having fistfights in the streets in the dark of the morning aren't trouble. Or ... " He stopped and eyed them a moment. "I meant the Ghealdan kind of trouble," he said finally. "No, I suppose not. Nothing but sheep downcountry, is there? No offense. I just meant it's quiet down there. Still, it's been a strange winter. Strange things in the mountains. I heard the other day there were Trollocs up in Saldaea. But that's the Borderlands then, isn't it?" He finished with his mouth still open, then snapped it shut, appearing surprised that he had said so much.

This story of Trollocs in Saldaea is being passed around as if it's strange, so it's unlikely to have anything to do with the normal raids from the Blight (which Ara does not seem to have considered before this moment). More likely it is Domon's Trollocs who were no doubt after his seal, which is another tie to Taim even though he hadn't yet been recruited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222559)
How were the rats at the Stag and Lion killed? Did Ishamael actually show up there, like he seemingly does outside Shadar Logoth later on? Can a Fade do this? Did Rand's ta'veren-ness make the cat somehow do it?

Rats are non-domesticated animals so the living rats have reflections in Tel'aran'rhiod. Ishamael could have killed all the rats with the Power in the Dream.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222559)
Granted, I don't remember a lot of the smaller details from the three Brandon books, but a lot of Min's viewings either seem unfulfilled or too ambiguous to really know. Is Mat's laughing face anything, or just a symbol that he's sort of a trickster type of character? Does Rand's hand getting blown off count as a "bloody" hand? What about the white hot iron?

Some of these things are in the notes, and they have explanations that make it clear RJ ditched those plotlines. It's not entirely clear whether he was going to fulfill them some other way or not, but Brandon fulfilled some of them, apparently in his own way. (There are some later notes written specifically for the last book that I have not seen, so I can't be sure.)

The bloody hand, the white hot iron, and the beggar's staff, for example, were all supposed to be fulfilled through a plot that ended up getting toned down and dispersed. The core of it is the scene in Morgase's court in TEOTW. In early notes, Rand meets his daughter-of-a-queen lover (called Elyn in some drafts), but Morgase is not her mother (being a distinct other character). Her mother in this model was adapted in large part to become Elaida. Rand was to lose his hand (unspecified) and be blinded with hot irons in the come-before-the-queen scene, being forced to wander as a beggar for some time afterward.

rand 07-27-2014 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222560)
Some of these things are in the notes, and they have explanations that make it clear RJ ditched those plotlines. It's not entirely clear whether he was going to fulfill them some other way or not, but Brandon fulfilled some of them, apparently in his own way. (There are some later notes written specifically for the last book that I have not seen, so I can't be sure.)

The bloody hand, the white hot iron, and the beggar's staff, for example, were all supposed to be fulfilled through a plot that ended up getting toned down and dispersed. The core of it is the scene in Morgase's court in TEOTW. In early notes, Rand meets his daughter-of-a-queen lover (called Elyn in some drafts), but Morgase is not her mother (being a distinct other character). Her mother in this model was adapted in large part to become Elaida. Rand was to lose his hand (unspecified) and be blinded with hot irons in the come-before-the-queen scene, being forced to wander as a beggar for some time afterward.

Thanks for the replies. :)

That's interesting. Was this back when RJ was planning it all as just a trilogy? Rand would have been blinded and crippled in book 1?

Since the courtroom scene takes place in the same book as Min's viewings, I guess RJ decided to keep the viewings and try to include them elsewhere (but never really did)?





A few other random things I noticed:

I wonder if the guy with the scar they meet at the Stag and Lion is just a DF like Rand thinks, and not a Whitecloak informer as Lan says. He doesn't seem to have informed the Whitecloaks of anything, or Rand and co. would have been stopped long before the gate to the Caemlyn Road was already partway open. I noticed there's mention of a strange guy from Baerlon who hid in Emond's Field for a while:
Quote:

tEotW 2
It was a good five years since the last time a real stranger appeared in Emond's Field, and he had been trying to hide from some sort of trouble up in Baerlon that nobody in the village understood. He had not stayed long.
I guess it's possible this is the same guy, and he's just a DF informing Ishamael of everything going on in the Two Rivers. Not that it really matters as this is never mentioned again.

Also, did Lan know Logain from prior to the story? I don't remember hearing anything about it later, but it's emphasized twice, so I guess it could be true.

Terez 07-27-2014 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222561)
Thanks for the replies. :)

That's interesting. Was this back when RJ was planning it all as just a trilogy? Rand would have been blinded and crippled in book 1?

Since the courtroom scene takes place in the same book as Min's viewings, I guess RJ decided to keep the viewings and try to include them elsewhere (but never really did)?

It was an evolving thing, and I haven't catalogued the progression yet, but the files I recall were very general early concept notes with no division of books. He was not very much for setting things in stone, and I'm guessing what happened is that he wrote the EOTW court scene taking that idea as inspiration, but he still planned on fulfilling the viewings somewhere down the road in a way similar to what he originally envisioned. I remember Dom pointed out that Elyn's mother was also transformed into Berelain in some ways. I just don't remember how. I plan on digging back into the notes when I do a reread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222561)
Also, did Lan know Logain from prior to the story? I don't remember hearing anything about it later, but it's emphasized twice, so I guess it could be true.

My guess is he knew of Logain, and referred to him as one would any well-known person.

sleepinghour 07-27-2014 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222564)
I remember Dom pointed out that Elyn's mother was also transformed into Berelain in some ways.

So did Elayne after she had gotten herself drunk in TSR (I wonder if that scene was RJ's idea of an in-joke).

Quote:

Originally Posted by TSR Chapter 39 - A Cup of Wine
Thom sighed and shook his head. At last he said stiffly, "I was not always a gleeman. I was a bard, once. A Court-bard. In Caemlyn, as it happens. For Queen Morgase. You were a child. You are just remembering things wrong, that's all."

"You were her lover, weren't you?” The flinch of his eyes was enough. "You were! I always knew about Gareth Bryne. At least, I figured it out. But I always hoped she would marry him. Gareth Bryne, and you, and this Lord Gaebril Mat said she looks calf-eyes at now, and . . . How many more? How many? What makes her any different from Berelain, tripping every man who catches her eye into her bed. She is no different—" Her vision shivered, and her head rang. It took her a moment to realize he had slapped her.

[...]

She said the first thing that came into her head. "Rand must think I'm crazy, Thom is a bard, and Berelain isn't my mother after all." Nynaeve gave her the oddest look. "I am a little dizzy for some reason. A nice boy with sweet brown eyes offered to help me upstairs."


Terez 07-27-2014 05:11 PM

:)

rand 07-27-2014 10:46 PM

Ok, I have a bunch of questions/comments about Shadar Logoth, but a few random things before that:

It seems fairly obvious that Thom knows exactly what Moiraine is looking for in the boys, based on his reaction to Perrin joking about Mat being Aemon reborn. Not sure I ever noticed this before.

After Shadar Logoth, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that channelers can sense people they've Healed (which is how Nynaeve found Egwene in Baerlon). Is this a tEotWism? I don't remember this really being a thing later on in the series.

Shouldn't Egwene be getting channeling sickness too?

Not sure if this is a mistake, but when Rand reaches Baerlon he's overly impressed at the size and "grandeur" of it. But when he reaches Shadar Logoth, he remembers how much better TV looked in his dream from chapter 9. Why was he impressed with Baerlon at all then?

While in Shadar Logoth, Rand has this weird dream:
Quote:

tEotW 19
He had been a little boy again, carrying Tam's sword and with a cradle strapped to his back, running through empty streets, pursued by Mordeth, who shouted that he only wanted his hand. And there had been an old man who watched them and cackled with mad laughter the whole time.
It seems to just be a compilation of things Rand heard immediately before falling asleep. Lan in his cradle, Caar One-Hand, and King Balwen laughing. Not sure if there's any deeper meaning.


And a bunch of stuff more directly related to Shadar Logoth:

Terez, do you know if RJ called Finnland Sindhol in the notes? Or is it just something Brandon made up? I was just wondering if that and the name Aridhol were supposed to be connected somehow. I know (well, I think I know) that Brandon confirmed that Mordeth had visited Finnland.

I'm sure there's been theories, but the whole scene with Mordeth has always kind of confused me. What, exactly, is he trying to do to the three boys? He inflates himself, lets out a scream, deflates, then dives at the wall and slides through it. Do any of these actions mean anything?

What is Mordeth anyway? Is he just some random guy? He's described as being "sleek," with a pinched face. Is he somehow one of the Foxes?

Another thought I had connecting Mordeth with Finnland... Mashadar presumably means "shadow something" or something to do with shadow. Could Mordeth have visited the foxes and wished for a means to save Aridhol from darkfriends, but ended up unwittingly sacrificing his shadow in the process? Ie, the Finns took his shadow and created Mashadar, which turned everyone against DFs--but against each other as well. Mordeth is ammune to Mashadar because it's a part of him. I know Mordeth is portrayed as a dick by Moiraine, but all this happened 2000 years ago (or however long it was). Maybe Mordeth had good intentions to save Aridhol, but ultimately got tricked by the Finn? Sorry if this has been mentioned a kazillion times, I know there have been theories connecting Mordeth and Finnland before, but I never really read them.

Also, it seems as though Mat starts acting oddly way before he finds the dagger. Granted, he just discovered he could speak the Old Tongue (which may or may not be part of this oddness), but his actions in Shadar Logoth just seem way off to me. All of a sudden he starts leading Rand and Perrin on an almost obsessive chase to find treasure in the city. I know Mat's kind of crude like that, but still, he seems to carry on about the potential adventure/treasure of Shadar Logoth as if he's drunk.

I guess I'm sort of wondering if something happened to Mat even prior to picking up the dagger--which in itself is pretty strange, especially after Moiraine explains how cursed the place is. The only thing I can think of is the dreams with Ishamael. Could Mat have taken the drink that was offered to Rand as well? Not sure what it was supposed to be, but something seems to be up with Mat between Baerlon and Shadar Logoth (including the Old Blood incident).

Has it ever really been proven conclusively where Mat's luck came from? I know RJ joked about Mat sort of really having the DO's own luck. Could it have come from Mat drinking whatever Ishamael offered him? I don't think Mat's luck really starts until later, though... The goblet scene in Rand's dream seems out of place as it is, though. Ishamael tries to trick Rand into drinking it (I guess?), Rand refuses, and that's that. Why else include that part?

eht slat meit 07-27-2014 11:38 PM

If I recall from reading, Aridhol is in the Compleat Old tongue being tentatively defined "City of the Second Covenant." My guess, purely speculative, it's actually *Nation of the Second Covenant*. It would honestly not surprise me if they got their name by signing into that Second Covenant with the Aes Sedai for the Ten Nations Compact.

Using the naming scheme, that would suggest that Sindhol is possibly "Nation of the First Covenant" (as opposed to the later Second and Third), and their system of doing things, not to mention the protections on the redstone doorways against Aes Sedai, is a matter of an agreement with the Aes Sedai, probably in recognition of some danger they pose to the chaotic nature of that homeland.

Terez 07-27-2014 11:50 PM

Sindhol is literally "neverland". Alan got that from RJ's notes on the Old Tongue.

Terez 07-28-2014 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222589)
It seems fairly obvious that Thom knows exactly what Moiraine is looking for in the boys, based on his reaction to Perrin joking about Mat being Aemon reborn. Not sure I ever noticed this before.

I wouldn't go that far. He still has healthy doubts about Rand in TGH. I'd say he had an inkling, but it wasn't something he liked to think about, and his reaction was supposed to be a reflection of his wandering-storyteller-who-knows-everything persona, and a hint of weird things to come along the lines of Mordeth and Lews Therin.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222589)
After Shadar Logoth, Moiraine tells Nynaeve that channelers can sense people they've Healed (which is how Nynaeve found Egwene in Baerlon). Is this a tEotWism? I don't remember this really being a thing later on in the series.

If I recall, Brandon brought it back in AMOL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222589)
Shouldn't Egwene be getting channeling sickness too?

In the tree-cave on the way to Baerlon, in Rand's POV:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moiraine
"... but some of the women die, too. It is hard to learn without a guide. The women we do not find, those who live, often become ... well, in this part of the world they might become Wisdoms of their villages." The Aes Sedai paused thoughtfully. "The old blood is strong in Emond's Field, and the old blood sings. I knew you for what you were the moment I saw you. No Aes Sedai can stand in the presence of a woman who can channel or who is close to her change, and not feel it. " She rummaged in the pouch at her belt and produced the small blue gem on a gold chain that she had earlier worn in her hair. "You are very close to your change, your first touching. It will be better if I guide you through it. That way you will avoid the ... unpleasant effects that come to those who must find their own way."

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222589)
Not sure if this is a mistake, but when Rand reaches Baerlon he's overly impressed at the size and "grandeur" of it. But when he reaches Shadar Logoth, he remembers how much better TV looked in his dream from chapter 9. Why was he impressed with Baerlon at all then?

Perhaps because he didn't really think of the dream much until after the Ishamael dreams in Baerlon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222589)
What is Mordeth anyway? Is he just some random guy? He's described as being "sleek," with a pinched face. Is he somehow one of the Foxes?

Brandon said he had been to Finnland. I haven't seen these notes; some were probably held back for the Encyclopedia.

GonzoTheGreat 07-28-2014 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222589)
Also, it seems as though Mat starts acting oddly way before he finds the dagger. Granted, he just discovered he could speak the Old Tongue (which may or may not be part of this oddness), but his actions in Shadar Logoth just seem way off to me. All of a sudden he starts leading Rand and Perrin on an almost obsessive chase to find treasure in the city. I know Mat's kind of crude like that, but still, he seems to carry on about the potential adventure/treasure of Shadar Logoth as if he's drunk.

Almost as if he is under some sort of ta'veren influence, wouldn't you say?
Of course, that's rather unlikely; what are the odds that a ta'veren would have been close enough to influence him right then?

Zombie Sammael 07-28-2014 05:31 AM

Quote:

Another thought I had connecting Mordeth with Finnland... Mashadar presumably means "shadow something" or something to do with shadow. Could Mordeth have visited the foxes and wished for a means to save Aridhol from darkfriends, but ended up unwittingly sacrificing his shadow in the process? Ie, the Finns took his shadow and created Mashadar, which turned everyone against DFs--but against each other as well. Mordeth is ammune to Mashadar because it's a part of him. I know Mordeth is portrayed as a dick by Moiraine, but all this happened 2000 years ago (or however long it was). Maybe Mordeth had good intentions to save Aridhol, but ultimately got tricked by the Finn? Sorry if this has been mentioned a kazillion times, I know there have been theories connecting Mordeth and Finnland before, but I never really read them.
I speculated at one point that Mashadar actually was the weapon intended to fight against the Shadow, but went out of control and destroyed Aridhol instead. That would seem to fit nicely with your theory that it was a Finn creation.

rand 07-28-2014 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael (Post 222598)
I speculated at one point that Mashadar actually was the weapon intended to fight against the Shadow, but went out of control and destroyed Aridhol instead. That would seem to fit nicely with your theory that it was a Finn creation.

Cool. Guess we'll have to wait for the Encyclopedia to (hopefully) get more info. I found the Shadar Logoth stuff interesting during this reread, mostly because a lot of it's still pretty weird/mysterious even after the whole series is done.

rand 07-29-2014 02:21 AM

I didn't read much today, but I have a few thoughts.

First, there are some very strange somewhat-out-of-context quotes regarding Mistress al'Vere:

Quote:

tEotW 2
Toward Rand [Mistress al'Vere's] motherliness extended to warm smiles and a quick snack whenever he came by the inn, but she did as much for every young man in the area. If she occasionally looked at him as if she wanted to do more, at least she took it no further than looks, for which he was deeply grateful.
Quote:

tEotW 25
She was Ila, Raen's wife, a head taller than her husband, and she soon made Perrin forget about the color of her clothes. She had a motherliness that reminded him of Mistress al'Vere...
Incidentally, the second quote seems to jump out of Perrin's PoV for some reason.




Ok, so Ishamael sends Rand and the others into a dream version of, presumably, the Ways. Any reason why, or is it just a menacing environment Ishy likes? Rand asks an interesting question while he's in this dream. Are Mat and Perrin in there with him? Or does Ishamael have to stage three identical dreams back to back, basically just reading from a script?

I don't remember if this is answered in tSR, but why don't the Tinkers ever travel into the Two Rivers? And why are they there in tSR, then? (I'm thinking the second question is answered in tSR, but I don't remember).

On a related note, it's said that the Tinkers "cross the Waste all the time." Why? The Aiel don't interact with them at all, so they aren't trading or looking for the Song. So are they just chilling out there? My point is, it seems like a weird place to travel just for the hell of it. It's mentioned several times (in chapter 25) that they "cross" the Waste. I'm assuming this just sort of means criss-cross, but are they going all the way to Shara?

So, it seems pretty apparent now that the murdered group of Maidens must have stumbled upon the Town, and the Trollocs chased them down (somehow?) to preserve the secret. But what was that last surviving Maiden trying to say specifically? Basically all she says is that the DO plans to "blind the Eye of the World" and "slay the Great Serpent." Was Ishamael trying to find the Eye before the Dragon Reborn could, using the nearby Red Veils to search for it? And then have him, or the Red Veils, use it up before Rand could get there?

Zombie Sammael 07-29-2014 02:44 AM

I believe it is confirmed or at least strongly implied that the Tinkers cross the waste in order to trade with the Sharans. Presumably, they look for the Song in Shara, too.

I think your summation of Ishamael's intentions is probably correct. Remember, at this stage in the story Ishamael was the Dark One, as far as anyone knew. "Slay the great serpent" and "blind the eye of the world" might have been two different goals to Ishamael, but as far as anyone else (including random Maidens of the Spear) knew, they were a single intention; both sound like "end the world" type plans, even if one is actually only a step towards the other.

Terez 07-29-2014 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222647)
I don't remember if this is answered in tSR, but why don't the Tinkers ever travel into the Two Rivers?

Probably because there's no way out except the way they came in. They prefer to travel through places, and in the Two Rivers you have to go back through the same towns on the way out. Everyone in the Two Rivers thinks the Tinkers steal children (and everything else too), so it's probably best for the Tinkers to avoid it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222647)
And why are they there in tSR, then? (I'm thinking the second question is answered in tSR, but I don't remember).

The Whitecloaks forced the Tinkers to cross into the Two Rivers so that they couldn't spread news of Whitecloak presence in the area. Byar and Fain were at cross purposes on that matter; it was Byar who gave the order that they not be allowed to escape, but Fain wanted the news to spread because he was trying to draw Rand to the Two Rivers.

Davian93 07-29-2014 11:25 AM

The Tinkers definitely do go to the Two Rivers occasionally as Mistress Luhhan has a tinker-mended pot.

Quote:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 25 - The Traveling People


"It will be getting dark soon, Elyas," Perrin said. "We have to camp somewhere. Why not with them, if they'll have us?" Mistress Luhhan had a Tinker-mended pot that she claimed was better than new. Master Luhhan was not too happy about his wife's praise of the Tinker work, but Perrin wanted to see how it was done. Yet there was a reluctance about Elyas that he did not understand. "Is there some reason we shouldn't?"

GonzoTheGreat 07-29-2014 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 222672)
The Tinkers definitely do go to the Two Rivers occasionally as Mistress Luhhan has a tinker-mended pot.

Perhaps Padan Fain took it to Baerlon for fixing ...

Davian93 07-29-2014 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 222677)
Perhaps Padan Fain took it to Baerlon for fixing ...

Seems like a bit of a stretch...

rand 07-29-2014 12:30 PM

It wouldn't be too surprising to find out that Fain was involved in pot trafficking on top of everything else...

Terez 07-29-2014 10:58 PM

I'm sure the Tinkers have been to the Two Rivers in the past, but they apparently haven't been near Emond's Field specifically during Perrin's lifetime, which is close to 20 years. It's possible they came as far as Watch Hill during Perrin's lifetime, in which case some but not all Emond's Fielders would have made the trip to see them (and get pots fixed).

rand 07-30-2014 02:09 AM

When Rand and co. are on the Spray Domon mentions all the weird things he's seen or heard about. Almost all of them we see later on (Ghenjei, the crystal on Tremalking, the bowl with the spire thing, etc.), but he also mentions this:
Quote:

tEotW 24
A crystal lattice covering an island, and it hums when the moon is up.
Is this supposed to be anything we've seen?

Later, when they reach Whitebridge, this happens:
Quote:

tEotW 26
Rand stared even more wonderingly. From the Age of Legends. Made by Aes Sedai, then. That was why Captain Domon felt the way he did, for all his talk about the wonder and strangeness of the world. Aes Sedai work. One thing to hear about it, another to see it, and touch it. You know that, don't you? For an instant it seemed to Rand that a shadow rippled through the milk-white structure. He pulled his eyes away, to the docks coming nearer, but the bridge still loomed in the corner of his vision.
Uh...what? Is this just a random trick of the eye that's supposed to be symbolic of Rand's thoughts, or...?


When Moiraine and co. arrive in Whitebridge, she changes her mind and decides to go after Perrin instead of Rand and Mat. Her reasoning is that she doesn't know where Rand and Mat went, when A) She can apparently sense their fear, which would lead her down the Caemlyn Road, and B) She didn't really know where they were anyway until she finally sensed them in the common room at Whitebridge. So I don't really get her reasoning here.



I'm a little confused with what happens in the Tinker camp. Elyas is waiting for "something" to happen before they leave. Ishamael shows up and breaks the wolf wards on Perrin's dreams (at least, I assume that's what happened). Then he has a raven peck out Perrin's eye (which apparently has no physical effect on him in the real world) and says "I mark you mine." So what did this marking do? Can't Ishamael track them all anyway through the dreams? And apparently Ishamael breaking through the wolf wards and attacking Perrin was the secret signal Elyas was waiting for?

When they finally leave, Raen looks at the sky and says that it's an evil day (or something to that effect). Is this just a somewhat melodramatic scene in which the wise old man is able to look up at the sky and tell the day will be evil? Or can he "read the wind"? (ie, channel). Also, nothing happens that day. It's at least a day, maybe more until the ravens attack them.

When Elyas talks about Artur Hawkwing, he says that Hawkwing conquered everything "...from the Aryth Ocean to the Aiel Waste, and even some beyond the Waste." I don't remember, but Hawkwing didn't unite the Aiel along with everyone else, did he? But he apparently did make it to Shara? So are some of his descendants over there too?

I know the Whitecloaks are heading for Caemlyn, but where the heck are they coming from? They're in the middle of nowhere. And did they not have to ride through the swarms of man-eating ravens?

Also, why do the Whitecloaks smell "wrong" to Perrin. Just cause they're all assholes?

Terez 07-30-2014 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222734)
When Rand and co. are on the Spray Domon mentions all the weird things he's seen or heard about. Almost all of them we see later on (Ghenjei, the crystal on Tremalking, the bowl with the spire thing, etc.), but he also mentions this:

Is this supposed to be anything we've seen?

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222734)
Later, when they reach Whitebridge, this happens:

Uh...what? Is this just a random trick of the eye that's supposed to be symbolic of Rand's thoughts, or...?

It was made partly with saidin. Perhaps Rand can sense the taint in it better than anyone because by this point he has channeled a couple of times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222734)
When Moiraine and co. arrive in Whitebridge, she changes her mind and decides to go after Perrin instead of Rand and Mat. Her reasoning is that she doesn't know where Rand and Mat went, when A) She can apparently sense their fear, which would lead her down the Caemlyn Road, and B) She didn't really know where they were anyway until she finally sensed them in the common room at Whitebridge. So I don't really get her reasoning here.

It's a matter of precision. She could find Perrin more certainly than she could find them.

[lots of TEOTWisms]


Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222734)
When Elyas talks about Artur Hawkwing, he says that Hawkwing conquered everything "...from the Aryth Ocean to the Aiel Waste, and even some beyond the Waste." I don't remember, but Hawkwing didn't unite the Aiel along with everyone else, did he? But he apparently did make it to Shara? So are some of his descendants over there too?

Elyas isn't counting the Waste. The 'beyond' bit has to come from stories of the voyages of Hawkwing's children to Seanchan and Shara, though the stories about Berelain's line are apparently not believed. That expedition failed, which is why the line ended up in Mayene.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222734)
Also, why do the Whitecloaks smell "wrong" to Perrin. Just cause they're all assholes?

Perrin can smell emotions and the like; they probably smell rabid.

rand 07-30-2014 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222736)
It's a matter of precision. She could find Perrin more certainly than she could find them.

[lots of TEOTWisms]

True, but her plan from the beginning was to find the two without the coins (Rand and Mat) because she knew where the other one (Perrin) was already and could find him any old time. She goes to Whitebridge to search for signs of the ones she's actually concerned about at the time, and when she finds the signs, she just changes her mind (conveniently in time to save Perrin, I guess. Maybe RJ should have just had her go after Perrin from the start?).

Terez 07-30-2014 01:44 PM

She thought they might be in Whitebridge. She could have found them and then gone for Perrin. But they had already left, so it wasn't that easy.

rand 07-31-2014 12:54 AM

I mostly read Rand and Mat's journey to Caemlyn today. Not a whole lot going on there, but a few things came to mind.

First, why did RJ decide to write these scenes with all the weird flashbacks? I mean, I'm saying this mostly as a joke, and it isn't really confusing or anything, but it just seems like a very odd way to write the whole thing. Maybe RJ was trying to impart some of Rand and Mat's paranoia/confusion on the reader?

I'm not really sure if we ever understand this fully, but can Myrrdraal essentially Travel through shadows? I know they apparently can for short distances, but can they hop all over Randland just by finding dark hallways and shadowy forests and stuff? Even if they can only Travel (or whatever it is they're doing) over short distances, they should be able to find Rand and Mat easily enough using this method. They'd just need to jump from shadowy tree to shadowy tree down the Caemlyn Road until they found them. Instead, they set up a network of the most incompetent DFs they could find and have them wait at various inns down the road. I mean, they're searching for the freaking Dragon Reborn! The best guy they could find to stop their mortal enemy is Paitr?!

Speaking of Paitr, when he touches Rand, Rand gets a weird vision/flashback thing of a bunch of the times Trollocs and Fades and DFs attacked them. Why does this happen? I was wondering if it was a tEotWism that made Rand see visions when he touched a DF, but only a few pages later Mili Skane touches him and nothing happens.

In his fever dream, Rand dreams about pulling Thom along, and we get the first Fisher King reference (aside from the prophecy after the prologue, at least). I never really paid much attention to this before.

Just a random thought, but do Thom and Morgase ever meet up in the series? I don't think so, but can't really remember.

I didn't remember from other reads that Loial had been to Cairhien, Tear, and Illian before going to Caemlyn. I forget if he makes any reference to these travels when he actually goes to Cairhien and Tear later.

Finally, Loial tells Rand that he (Loial) doesn't have a Talent for seeing ta'veren. Is it possible for non-channelers to have Talents? Can Ogier have them?

GonzoTheGreat 07-31-2014 03:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
Finally, Loial tells Rand that he (Loial) doesn't have a Talent for seeing ta'veren. Is it possible for non-channelers to have Talents? Can Ogier have them?

Yes, yes and also no.
Quote:

Originally Posted by TGH, Chapter 36, Among the Elders
Alar eyed them each in turn, then settled to a study of Rand. She looked as if she knew things; all the Elders did, but she most of all. "Verin says you are ta'veren," she said at last, "and I can feel it in you. That I can do so means that you must be very strongly ta'veren indeed, for such Talents ever run weakly in us, if at all. Have you drawn Loial, son of Arent son of Halan, into ta'maral'ailen, the Web the Pattern weaves around you?"

Apparently, Ogier don't "see" ta'veren, but "feel it in them", which explains the "no". They can have Talents, though not quite the same set as humans have (Tree Singing is one that humans don't seem to have, for instance), thus explaining the second "yes". And Ogier can't channel, which explains the first "yes".

Weird Harold 07-31-2014 05:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
I'm not really sure if we ever understand this fully, but can Myrrdraal essentially Travel through shadows? I know they apparently can for short distances, but can they hop all over Randland just by finding dark hallways and shadowy forests and stuff?

Yes, Myrddraal can travel through shadows. IIRC, there is one mention of a Fade seeking "the hard edge of shadow needed to Travel" or something to that effect.

So the can't just Travel to anyplace that is dark, they need a 'line of contrast' and the greater the contrast, the easier it is to Travel through that shadow.

I don't know of any limitation other than the need for a line of contrast. A Fade was in Ebou Dar(?) and departed via Shadow Walking, but his destination was unknown.

rand 07-31-2014 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 222787)
Apparently, Ogier don't "see" ta'veren, but "feel it in them", which explains the "no". They can have Talents, though not quite the same set as humans have (Tree Singing is one that humans don't seem to have, for instance), thus explaining the second "yes". And Ogier can't channel, which explains the first "yes".

Okay, yeah. I forgot those types of things were considered Talents.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weird Harold (Post 222788)
Yes, Myrddraal can travel through shadows. IIRC, there is one mention of a Fade seeking "the hard edge of shadow needed to Travel" or something to that effect.

So the can't just Travel to anyplace that is dark, they need a 'line of contrast' and the greater the contrast, the easier it is to Travel through that shadow.

I don't know of any limitation other than the need for a line of contrast. A Fade was in Ebou Dar(?) and departed via Shadow Walking, but his destination was unknown.

Thanks. So I guess Fades basically can Travel anywhere, they just don't for the most part.

Terez 07-31-2014 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
First, why did RJ decide to write these scenes with all the weird flashbacks? I mean, I'm saying this mostly as a joke, and it isn't really confusing or anything, but it just seems like a very odd way to write the whole thing. Maybe RJ was trying to impart some of Rand and Mat's paranoia/confusion on the reader?

Something like that. It's a form of a fairly common literary device. I liked it, despite the confusion, but a lot of people didn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
I'm not really sure if we ever understand this fully, but can Myrrdraal essentially Travel through shadows? I know they apparently can for short distances, but can they hop all over Randland just by finding dark hallways and shadowy forests and stuff? Even if they can only Travel (or whatever it is they're doing) over short distances, they should be able to find Rand and Mat easily enough using this method. They'd just need to jump from shadowy tree to shadowy tree down the Caemlyn Road until they found them. Instead, they set up a network of the most incompetent DFs they could find and have them wait at various inns down the road. I mean, they're searching for the freaking Dragon Reborn! The best guy they could find to stop their mortal enemy is Paitr?!

Fades also get weak when they're too far away from Shayol Ghul for too long. I don't think they were necessarily using the most incompetent Darkfriends they could find; it's rather supposed to demonstrate that Darkfriends were already scared of Rand after what happened to Howal Gode, and it fell to Paitr to serve tea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
Speaking of Paitr, when he touches Rand, Rand gets a weird vision/flashback thing of a bunch of the times Trollocs and Fades and DFs attacked them. Why does this happen? I was wondering if it was a tEotWism that made Rand see visions when he touched a DF, but only a few pages later Mili Skane touches him and nothing happens.

I think it was just a mundane flashback. Paitr touching him was an aggression, a sign of his desperation to follow his orders, and it just caused Rand to dwell a moment on the weight of his situation, being chased by everyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
In his fever dream, Rand dreams about pulling Thom along, and we get the first Fisher King reference (aside from the prophecy after the prologue, at least). I never really paid much attention to this before.

I think Rand's dreams of Thom hint at a deleted scene somewhere, where Thom told him about Owyn in more detail. It would explain the Fisher King reference, the queen being wed to the land, and the mention of the Black Ajah when no one in the story had yet mentioned any of those things to Rand. (See ch. 33.) All those details are connected to Owyn, especially since the Black was mentioned in connection with the Red.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
Just a random thought, but do Thom and Morgase ever meet up in the series? I don't think so, but can't really remember.

I can't recall if they met in the Brandon books, but I don't think they did. I know they didn't meet in the RJ books. But there's a nice scene in TFOH where he meets Bryne. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222784)
I didn't remember from other reads that Loial had been to Cairhien, Tear, and Illian before going to Caemlyn. I forget if he makes any reference to these travels when he actually goes to Cairhien and Tear later.

He does, but not in great detail. For example, in Cairhien, he says that when he was there before, the area where Barthanes made his manor house (site of the old Ogier grove) was wooded.

rand 08-01-2014 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222808)
I think Rand's dreams of Thom hint at a deleted scene somewhere, where Thom told him about Owyn in more detail. It would explain the Fisher King reference, the queen being wed to the land, and the mention of the Black Ajah when no one in the story had yet mentioned any of those things to Rand. (See ch. 33.) All those details are connected to Owyn, especially since the Black was mentioned in connection with the Red.

Interesting. I was wondering about the Black Ajah thing too. I think Elyas mentioned it, but Thom hadn't. Is the deleted scene just a theory of yours or something from the notes?




Not sure if this is a mistake or not, but when escaping from the Whitecloaks Perrin gets lost in the darkness and needs Lan to call him so he can find his way back from stealing a couple WC cloaks. What happened to his wolf eyes? It was already established that he could see unnaturally well at night in the initial WC attack.

One of the reasons Morgase believes Rand's story is that she's heard a Two Rivers accent before. She also mentions specifically that Bryne and Elaida weren't with her when this happened. Who did she hear? Since Kari's from Andor, and Tam's the only TR person we know of who left the TR, did Morgase meet Tam at some point? Or did one of those weirdos from Taren Ferry venture outside to Caemlyn?

It's interesting that three consecutive Rand PoV chapters all have similar names: "Web of the Pattern," "Weaving of the Web," and "The Web Tightens." Most of the chapters names seem to come from quotes, or at least major themes of the chapters, but these are more abstract (they're the chapters where Rand meets Loial, goes to see Logain, and meets Elayne). Is it just to build up to the significance of his meeting with characters like Elayne, Gawyn, Elaida, etc? Or at least Elaida's revelation that Rand's at the center of everything? (which, in hindsight, should have been a pretty big hint to Rand that he was the one the DO was after--assuming he believed Elaida).

Since Moiraine and co. were presumably traveling as fast as possible to Caemlyn (after rescuing Perrin) to reach Rand and Mat in time, how could the Whitecloaks have possibly beat them there, traveling cross-country, encumbered with all kinds of tents and stuff, and with 200 men? Unless they just sent a scout ahead or something...

Is it ever mentioned where the Trolloc army outside Caemlyn goes after everyone escapes through the Ways?

This is just kind of a stupid observation on my part, but how on earth did the Maidens and Jain Farstrider happen to stumble upon the exact same news in the Blight (same words and everything) seventeen years apart from each other? Was Ishamael having nightly "we'll blind the Eye of the World and slay the Great Serpent! Woo!" speeches in the Town every night for several decades?

Terez 08-01-2014 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222817)
Interesting. I was wondering about the Black Ajah thing too. I think Elyas mentioned it, but Thom hadn't. Is the deleted scene just a theory of yours or something from the notes?

I forgot to look for it when I had the chance. I hope to go again some day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222817)
One of the reasons Morgase believes Rand's story is that she's heard a Two Rivers accent before. She also mentions specifically that Bryne and Elaida weren't with her when this happened. Who did she hear? Since Kari's from Andor, and Tam's the only TR person we know of who left the TR, did Morgase meet Tam at some point?

That has always been the going theory, but I can't remember whether it has been debunked or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222817)
It's interesting that three consecutive Rand PoV chapters all have similar names: "Web of the Pattern," "Weaving of the Web," and "The Web Tightens." Most of the chapters names seem to come from quotes, or at least major themes of the chapters, but these are more abstract (they're the chapters where Rand meets Loial, goes to see Logain, and meets Elayne). Is it just to build up to the significance of his meeting with characters like Elayne, Gawyn, Elaida, etc? Or at least Elaida's revelation that Rand's at the center of everything? (which, in hindsight, should have been a pretty big hint to Rand that he was the one the DO was after--assuming he believed Elaida).

It's all to do with Rand's role and how the Pattern is using him to shape events.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222817)
Is it ever mentioned where the Trolloc army outside Caemlyn goes after everyone escapes through the Ways?

It was probably not quite an army. I don't think there was any mention of them after.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 222817)
This is just kind of a stupid observation on my part, but how on earth did the Maidens and Jain Farstrider happen to stumble upon the exact same news in the Blight (same words and everything) seventeen years apart from each other? Was Ishamael having nightly "we'll blind the Eye of the World and slay the Great Serpent! Woo!" speeches in the Town every night for several decades?

Farstrider was given the information by Ishamael himself, who claimed it was all part of his plan to draw Rand to Shayol Ghul.

rand 08-01-2014 02:03 AM

Ok, theory time. I've never heard of this theory before, which means I must be the first to think of it.

I have heard people mention that maybe Mat is King Aemon reborn. Which is silly, of course. But what if Mat is Caar reborn? All of a sudden it's sounding pretty juicy. Huh? Huh?

LOL. Seriously though, this is a theory I just came up with that most likely is of no importance anyway now that the series is over with. But anyway...

Mat = Caar al Thorin al Toren reborn

First, I'll quote Moiraine's story about Aridhol, since I tend to forget most of this part right after reading it:
Quote:

tEotW 19
"Once it was called Aridhol," Moiraine replied, "and was one of the Ten Nations, the lands that made the Second Covenant, the lands that stood against the Dark One from the first days after the Breaking of the World. In the days when Thorin al Toren al Ban was King of Manetheren, the King of Aridhol was Balwen Mayel, Balwen Ironhand. In a twilight of despair during the Trolloc Wars, when it seemed the Father of Lies must surely conquer, the man called Mordeth came to Balwen's court."

"Before Mordeth had long been in the city he had Balwen's ear, and soon he was second only to the King. Mordeth whispered poison in Balwen's ear, and Aridhol began to change. Aridhol drew in on itself, hardened. It was said that some would rather see Trollocs come than the men of Aridhol. The victory of the Light is all. That was the battlecry Mordeth gave them, and the men of Aridhol shouted it while their deeds abandoned the Light."

"The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin's son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be known as Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth's unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein of the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the Fall of Aleth-Loriel. How the armies of Manetheren came to avenge Caar and found the gates of Aridhol torn down, no living things inside the walls, but something worse than death. No enemy had come to Aridhol but Aridhol. Suspicion and hate had given birth to something that fed on that which created it, something locked in the bedrock on which the city stood. Mashadar waits still, hungering. Men spoke of Aridhol no more. They named it Shadar Logoth, the Place Where the Shadow Waits, or more simply Shadow's Waiting."

"Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules...or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar's power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again."
Not sure if all that's really necessary, but whatever. My theory is that the ruby dagger was Mordeth's personal dagger, and that he used it to cut off Caar's hand. The fact that Mat's soul had already been influenced by the dagger would explain a few things.

First, it's possible that Mat grabbing the dagger caused Mordeth to stop attacking them in the treasure room. Mordeth freaks out when they mention Tar Valon, then starts to swell up after Rand announces he has no shadow. Mordeth swells up to attack, and everyone dives back on the treasure. Then Mordeth let's out an "agonized scream," shrinks, and goes flying through the crack in the wall. Rand looks at Mat several times in this scene, and it's pretty clear Mat didn't have the dagger until just before super Mordeth screamed and blew up. The point is that Mat picking up the dagger--and that dagger specifically--somehow affected Mordeth. I'm not so sure it was a physical thing so much as Mordeth somehow was able to recognize who had picked up that specific dagger, and it scared him away. His "You're all dead!" cries make sense if you assume he's referring to Caar and the embassy.

Second, Moiraine mentions that she is surprised how long Mat managed to survive with the dagger once she meets him in Caemlyn. Well, sort of: "It is a wonder you got this far, carrying this." Perhaps the fact that his soul is already connected to the dagger has something to do with the fact that he can hold off its effects for a substantial period of time.

And finally, Mat is still immune to the dagger at the end of aMoL. There's probably a better explaination for why this is, but again, it could be his connection to Caar.

I'm wondering who Rhea is, if anyone. Or what Aleth-Loriel is, aside from shampoo. Maybe they have parallels in Mat's life? Getting chased by unnatural assassins sounds familiar, at least.

Also, FWIW, Moiraine's whole story is very LOTRy. A lot of the names are dwarven (Thorin, Toren, Ironhand--and of course these are probably Norse as well) or Elven (Aleth-Loriel). And the writing, particularly the long third paragraph, sounds like something straight from Tolkien. Not sure if any of this means anything, though.

Well, that's it I guess. Probably pretty stupid, but I just thought of it and I don't think anyone else has.

EDIT: I almost forgot to add the most obvious bit of evidence. Carr's name begins with "ca" and so does Cauthon. So that proves it right there.

Terez 08-01-2014 03:03 AM

Well, it's possible he's Caar reborn but he has Aemon's memories through the Old Blood, and the battle he remembered (when he woke up from being Healed in TDR) was after Caar's death. Cauthon might be derived from Caarson (Caar's son), but then al'Caar is truer to the original naming conventions.

In other words, most people who were paying attention thought Mat was merely descended from Aemon rather than being Aemon reborn.

Mat is immune to the dagger because he was Healed of its influence in Tar Valon.

GonzoTheGreat 08-01-2014 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222808)
Fades also get weak when they're too far away from Shayol Ghul for too long. I don't think they were necessarily using the most incompetent Darkfriends they could find; it's rather supposed to demonstrate that Darkfriends were already scared of Rand after what happened to Howal Gode, and it fell to Paitr to serve tea.

I am not sure that it is true in general that Fades suffer anything if they are far away from SG. It always seemed to me that that was a specific problem for Shaidar Haran, the Super Fade (ref: end of chapter 40 ACoS).

Do you have any indication at all that it is a weakness shared by other Fades?

Terez 08-01-2014 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 222821)
I am not sure that it is true in general that Fades suffer anything if they are far away from SG. It always seemed to me that that was a specific problem for Shaidar Haran, the Super Fade (ref: end of chapter 40 ACoS).

Do you have any indication at all that it is a weakness shared by other Fades?

Do you have any indication at all that it wasn't? Why would Shaidar Haran have some weakness that other Fades lacked?

Weird Harold 08-01-2014 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222822)
Do you have any indication at all that it wasn't? Why would Shaidar Haran have some weakness that other Fades lacked?

For the same reason that Shadar Haran smiles when other Fades don't -- He is a direct avatar (or ROV) of the DO.

GonzoTheGreat 08-01-2014 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 222822)
Do you have any indication at all that it wasn't? Why would Shaidar Haran have some weakness that other Fades lacked?

Because his direct link to the DO depends on the DO being able to maintain that link, and it was easier for the DO to do so at SG than anywhere else in the world.

SH was an avatar of the DO, basically a way for the DO to directly touch the world. It makes a lot of sense for that to be (mostly) limited to the region where he can touch the world, which means the Pit of Doom.
On the other hand, there is no sensible reason why Myrddraal in general (and they alone amongst Shadowspawn) should have such a problem.


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