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Terez 12-13-2015 10:02 PM

The next file in box 4 folder 2 is a one-pager. Really, a half-pager. I wish I could just post the whole thing; it's hard to summarize because it's already so boiled down.

It's called "MISCELLANEOUS NOTES AND PROPHECIES FROM LE MORTE D'ARTHUR". The filename was "PROPHECY".

He talks about Merlin and Balin's sword, Lancelot and his son Galahad, and Lancelot killing Gawain, "the man he loves most", with the sword. Then Merlin and Nyneve and his "attempts on her maidenhood" until she sealed him up in an enchanted cavern.

The bit most worth quoting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Nyneve fell in love with Sir Pelleas, after cruelly exposing the cold woman whom he had futilely loved tor some years.

This appears to be the essence of the Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle. Some Arthur nuts probably already knew that, but the way he worded it reveals a lot.

Finally he reminds himself that "Sangreal" is an "alternate name" for the Holy Grail. He even cites this to a page number in his copy of Le Morte d'Arthur. (I don't remember Dom commenting on this note, but I have to wonder if he was annoyed.)

At the end of the file, he was going to start a list of names, but only got as far as "Hew m[ale]".

Kimon 12-13-2015 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234762)
The next file in box 4 folder 2 is a one-pager. Really, a half-pager. I wish I could just post the whole thing; it's hard to summarize because it's already so boiled down.

It's called "MISCELLANEOUS NOTES AND PROPHECIES FROM LE MORTE D'ARTHUR". The filename was "PROPHECY".

He talks about Merlin and Balin's sword, Lancelot and his son Galahad, and Lancelot killing Gawain, "the man he loves most", with the sword. Then Merlin and Nyneve and his "attempts on her maidenhood" until she sealed him up in an enchanted cavern.

The bit most worth quoting:


This appears to be the essence of the Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle. Some Arthur nuts probably already knew that, but the way he worded it reveals a lot.

I never would have thought to connect Lan to Pelleas, but if RJ had run with that story a bit more it might have gotten interesting. The "cold woman" is variously called Arcade (early verions) or Ettarde (in Malory), so the names are pretty far from Moiraine, but Gawain tried to seduce her on Pelleas' behalf, but ended up sleeping with her himself. Moiraine hooking up with Gawyn would have been disappointing.

Balin by the way was the knight of the Dolorous Stroke that wounded the Fisher King. His name is a bit off too, but his brother's name is very close to the one he ended with - Balan.

sleepinghour 12-14-2015 06:16 AM

Thanks for the excellent write-up, Terez. This is fascinating stuff, in particular the mythological sources for the characters. :)

I think I wrote something about Lan/Pelleas once, mostly because of this quote from Le Morte d'Arthur which I found while trying to find clues about Rand's death and the three women on a boat:

Quote:

...thus was [Arthur] led away in a ship wherein were three queens; that one was King Arthur's sister, Queen Morgan le Fay; the other was the Queen of Northgalis; the third was the Queen of the Waste Lands. Also there was Nimue, the chief lady of the lake, that had wedded Pelleas the good knight; and this lady had done much for King Arthur, for she would never suffer Sir Pelleas to be in no place where he should be in danger of his life; and so he lived to the uttermost of his days with her in great rest.
The bolded part is reminiscent of Nynaeve's role in the later books, helping Rand and trying to get Rand to send aid to Lan. But for the most part, RJ reversed the original myth (which he may not have done yet at the early concept stages) or left a few faint traces that would explain why the characters might be remembered differently in future Ages. There was no real Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle, as the former two were never in love, but Nynaeve was certainly jealous of Moiraine and saw her as cold. And unlike Morgan le Fay, Moiraine was not Rand's sister, but he did call her "little sister" once in TFoH. I wish we could have seen what RJ had in mind with the three women and the boat; I suppose it could be passed off as a metaphor, but that conclusion doesn't really feel all that satisfying after years of speculating about Skimming platforms and the wounded/dead Arthur being brought to Avalon.

Terez 12-14-2015 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234764)
There was no real Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle...

Well now you're being pedantic. :p It functioned like a love triangle even though it was part platonic. Then Moiraine went and got herself involved in a love pentagram to make up for it.

GonzoTheGreat 12-14-2015 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234765)
Well now you're being pedantic. :p It functioned like a love triangle even though it was part platonic. Then Moiraine went and got herself involved in a love pentagram to make up for it.

Lemme see: Thom, Morgase, Elaida, Dena (who might not count on account of being dead), Mada, Saal, Elayne (only when drunk) and Moiraine. Seem to be too many for a proper pentagram to me.

fionwe1987 12-14-2015 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234766)
Lemme see: Thom, Morgase, Elaida, Dena (who might not count on account of being dead), Mada, Saal, Elayne (only when drunk) and Moiraine. Seem to be too many for a proper pentagram to me.

:eek::confused:

fionwe1987 12-14-2015 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234764)
The bolded part is reminiscent of Nynaeve's role in the later books, helping Rand and trying to get Rand to send aid to Lan. But for the most part, RJ reversed the original myth (which he may not have done yet at the early concept stages) or left a few faint traces that would explain why the characters might be remembered differently in future Ages. There was no real Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle, as the former two were never in love, but Nynaeve was certainly jealous of Moiraine and saw her as cold. And unlike Morgan le Fay, Moiraine was not Rand's sister, but he did call her "little sister" once in TFoH. I wish we could have seen what RJ had in mind with the three women and the boat; I suppose it could be passed off as a metaphor, but that conclusion doesn't really feel all that satisfying after years of speculating about Skimming platforms and the wounded/dead Arthur being brought to Avalon.

Moiraine also felt a brief flash of jealousy about Nynaeve:

Quote:

To her surprise, Moiraine felt a flash of jealousy. She had never felt that before, certainly not for any of the women who had thrown their hearts at his feet, or those who had shared his bed. Indeed, she had never thought of him as an object of jealousy, had never thought so of any man. She was married to her battle, as he was married to his. But they had been companions in those battles for so long. He had ridden a horse to death, then run himself nearly to death, carrying her in his arms at the last, to Anaiya for Healing. She had tended his wounds more than once, keeping with her arts a life he had been ready to throw away to save hers. He had always said he was wedded with death. Now a new bride had captured his eyes, though he was blind to it. He thought he still stood strong behind his walls, but Nynaeve had laced bridal flowers in his hair. Would he still find himself able to court death so blithely? Moiraine wondered when he would ask her to release him from his bond. And what she would do when he did.

sleepinghour 12-14-2015 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234764)
But for the most part, RJ reversed the original myth (which he may not have done yet at the early concept stages) or left a few faint traces that would explain why the characters might be remembered differently in future Ages.

Addendum: This was mostly meant as a general statement, that RJ liked to reverse the original myths, but may also have been true of the Lan/Nynaeve relationship. In some versions of Arthurian legend, a young huntress named Nimue (also called Nyneve) was pursued by the much older Merlin, but she didn't appreciate his advances and was only interested in learning his magic. Once Merlin had taught her all he knew, Nimue got rid of him by trapping him in a cave. The age difference is the only aspect that wasn't reversed by RJ; Nynaeve is the one who pursues Lan and eventually parts way with him to learn channeling which Lan has no ability with. The Merlin/Nimue relationship is also reversed by Thom/Moiraine, Thom being an even stronger Merlin parallel. Much like Lan, Thom has no magic and is pursued by a younger woman who does. The magic is an obstacle to their relationship rather than being the only thing that binds them together. And, like Terez noted elsewhere, RJ once considered making Moiraine Amyrlin who is also a 'Merlin.' So a number of character got bits and pieces of Merlin.

KilMichaelMcC 12-14-2015 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 234743)
Also, seems to me the "other plane of existence" is Tel'aran'rhiod? Funny to see that the "reintegration" was supposed to be of a woman. .

This idea looks to me like it eventually morphed into Perrin rescuing Faile from the hedgehog-ter'angreal trap, where her soul was separated from her body and he had to find it in T'A'R to save her.

Kimon 12-14-2015 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KilMichaelMcC (Post 234775)
This idea looks to me like it eventually morphed into Perrin rescuing Faile from the hedgehog-ter'angreal trap, where her soul was separated from her body and he had to find it in T'A'R to save her.

It would fit also as an inverse with Moridin entering Finnland to rescue Lanfear, and then reintegrate her as Cyndane. Could also work with Mat and Thom entering to save Moiraine, though the reintegration works a bit better with Lanfear.

Res_Ipsa 12-14-2015 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234728)
I want to share them all but the problem is that I'm bound by copyright laws for this stuff so I have to summarize a lot of stuff and only quote when RJ's exact wording is crucial.

Fair use may be on your side. I am not an IP lawyer, but in my individual opinion, not retained and not acting as a lawyer to anyone in this community, any reproduction used to comment and disseminate should fall under fair use. Even extensive reproduction is permitted under the four part balancing test. So, in this case, I think it is less copyright infringement and more about being respectful to the copyright holder's wishes. Use your best judgment.

Great Lord of the Dark 12-14-2015 10:10 PM

Fair use
 
I concur with Res_Ispa, fair use is likely broader than the restriction you have placed on yourself. You quote the books in your sig, the other material is no different, and you could reproduce it for reasons that carry greater permissions than your sig.

In Canada, review, research, and criticism are purposes which allow fair use reproduction of a work or a portion of it. Of course, we are much more liberal, and have even allowed James Bond into the public domain. The Wheel of Time and its characters, alas, will be another 65 years.

But I prefer the way you leak it to us in drips and drabs, so we have something to look forward to! Keep up the good work!

Terez 12-15-2015 12:05 AM

The NDA I was originally asked to sign at the library said I couldn't quote/reproduce anything at all, but after some negotiation I got them to replace that bit with an "abide by Fair Use" clause.*

As you said, anything I hold back now is just something to discover later. This is only Round 2; I am basically conducting my research in public at this point. It will be messy. The notes are messy. But Round 3 will be tighter, and maybe by then someone else will have posted their own research/thoughts (maybe Linda). Dom has been posting some of his own thoughts in the comments of several threads on RAFO, particularly those on power levels.

* I think these negotiations were basically between me and Harriet, but with the head of Special Collections and Alan acting as proxies. Though the Collections head might have delegated it to the archivist after talking to us personally, and for all I know Alan had to go through Maria. I talked to Alan about this some but if I recall he didn't respond to my email until the matter in the library was settled, that matter being that the library clearly hadn't worked out the rules yet, and me being me, I wanted to share everything. On the very first day, I tweeted out a few things and then emailed Maria and Alan to bring their attention to the potential problem so that they could take the opportunity to set clear boundaries.

Terez 12-15-2015 04:26 AM

Part 5

The next file from Box 4 Folder 2 is "Name List for THE EYE OF THE WORLD". It's basically a glossary. In the spirit of giving a little more, I'll list every entry, with quotes when they're significantly different from what's in the books.

Aes Sedai
Aiel
al'Thor, Rand
al'Thor, Tam
Anla the Wise Counselor

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
cris: an object which, in the hands of a Power weilder, can allow that person to handle more Power than he or she ordinarily could. Cris (this is also the plural) come in many sizes and configurations, as well as in many degrees of Power enhancing ability. Few are know to still exist, and fewer still are in the hands of the Aes Sedai. The art of making them is lost.

Dark One, the
Deceiver, the
Dragon, the
Dragon's Fang, the

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Eye of the World, The: a pool which seems to be of the pure essence of Power, in a cavern concealed in a valley within the Blight. It is a part of myth to all but a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Forsaken, the: thirteen great Aes Sedai who went over to Sha'tan in the days of the first struggle. Through his power over death they were granted
immortality, but they thus became wholly his creatures. They were sealed away from the world along with Sha'tan. Only scholars know anything of their true
nature and origins. To the rest of humanity they are Sha'tans chief demons.

gleeman
Great Serpent, the
Green Man, the
Grim Lord, the
Heartsbane
How Anteve Cured Her Husband of Snoring
How Susa the Milkmaid Tamed Haran the Far-Walker
Lan (still with white hair etc.)
Len (Lenn)
Lisbet
Lord of the Dawn, the (Dark One!)
Lord of the Grave, the
Lord of the Ravens, the (Dark One)
Lord of the Twilight, the
Mayor

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Moraine: the Aes Sedai who finds Rand al'Thor and finally forces him to realize that he is indeed the Dragon Reborn. She is obviously not young, but she has a sort of ageless beauty. Most would think her perhaps thirty or so. In fact she is more than twice that.

Nyneve

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Ogyr: a mountain people. They are taller than other humans (though not giants by any means) and are much stockier in build. Many are lumbermen and miners, though the craft they are best known for is metal work, the making of intricate jewelry and steel of unsurpassed quality. They are an ebullient folk,
joyful, boisterous and often boastful. They live on the western slopes of mountains that border the eastern side of the Waste (SEE 'WASTE' AND 'AIEL'). Though no one considers them as warlike (wrestling matches are seemingly the extent of their violent tendancies) [sic] the Aiel do not raid over the mountains into the lands of the Ogyr as they do elsewhere.

Render of Souls, the
Salia
Serpent that Eats Its Own Tail
Sha'tan
Telamon, Jaran
to put a long handle on your axe
Trollocs

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Warder: men, warriors, who are bonded to Aes Sedai, and who must obey the commands of the Aes Sedai to whom they are bonded. Normally they patrol the borders of the Blights, watching for signs that Sha'tan or the Forsaken have managed to touch the world of men once more, though occasionally they can be found in other places.. In all the centuries of their existence they have found no such signs until the story. They have other things to face, though, Trollocs and other evil things left from the war against Sha'tan and the Madness. They are given certain gifts by the Aes Sedai to whom they are bonded, through the use of the Power. They heal remarkably quickly, and they are all but immune to sickness or poison. They can survive cold or heat or lack of food or water better than other men. Most importantly, however, they can sense the taint of Sha'tan or the Forsaken. The Aes Sedai to whom a Warder is bonded will be aware of the instant of his death, though she will not be able to tell where it occurred. She will, however, know if it was violent, and if the cause was touched by the evil of Sha'tan or the Forsaken.

Waste, the
Wheel, the
White Flame, the
Wisdom

GonzoTheGreat 12-15-2015 05:39 AM

He changed "cris" into "angreal", but that's mostly a cosmetic difference, I think. Of course, I am not very good at languages, so there may be more to this than is apparent to me.

But the biggest surprise in this seems to be the Ogier. Having Loial be a Monty Python style lumberjack is definitely different from what the books depict.

Terez 12-15-2015 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234791)
He changed "cris" into "angreal", but that's mostly a cosmetic difference, I think. Of course, I am not very good at languages, so there may be more to this than is apparent to me.

In that case, I just included the whole entry so that it would be apparent to everyone that everything else was essentially the same.

sleepinghour 12-15-2015 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234791)
But the biggest surprise in this seems to be the Ogier. Having Loial be a Monty Python style lumberjack is definitely different from what the books depict.

Great, now I can't get this song out of my head. But I'm taking you all down with me!

He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day...

GonzoTheGreat 12-15-2015 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234792)
In that case, I just included the whole entry so that it would be apparent to everyone that everything else was essentially the same.

Well, one (me) could argue that there are a couple of noticeable differences:

- No sa'angreal equivalent is mentioned.
- The suggestion is made that any cris would work as well for male as for female Power users, whereas angreal are specific for either saidin or saidar but not both.

Nazbaque 12-15-2015 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234793)
Great, now I can't get this song out of my head. But I'm taking you all down with me!

He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day...

I don't mind the song, but the mental image of Loial in a dress hanging around in bars is giving me some serious trouble.

Terez 12-15-2015 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234793)
Great, now I can't get this song out of my head. But I'm taking you all down with me!

He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day...

I have never watched anything Monty Python all the way through, but my friend Hoda used to sing this all the time whenever he was wearing a flannel shirt (which was almost every day that it was cold). He doesn't sing very well so I probably only have the vaguest idea how it's supposed to sound.


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