Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums

Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/index.php)
-   Wheel of Time Resources (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   RJ's notes (series) (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8782)

Terez 01-25-2016 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 235455)
I know Min was confirmed a virgin, and Elayne, of course, but where do we find that about Aviendha? And Siuan? I'm pretty sure no Siuan quote exists proving she's a virgin, but maybe I blanked that one out too.

A couple years ago I could have found these quotes with no trouble, but it might take a little while now. Pretty sure this isn't the only quote relevant to Aviendha, but it works:

Quote:

Originally Posted by TFOH
"You belong to the near-sister of my near-sister. I have toh to Elayne, now, but that is none of your concern. Are you going to lie there forever? I have heard that men turn lazy, after, but it cannot be long until the clans are ready to begin the morning's march. You must be there."

Meaning, she has no first-hand experience.

C Rutherford 01-25-2016 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 235396)
Yes. Brandon has talked about how some new characters in his books were drawn from the notes. Often there's not much to build on, maybe just a name and location (e.g. at Dumai's Wells).


Some, but not much. An effort was made to include all that in the Encyclopedia.


Yes. Again, not much. I asked Maria about Serafelle (which I think I mentioned somewhere?) and she couldn't remember the exact reason that info wasn't included, but she offered a few suggestions including that they might have encountered a continuity problem somewhere.


I posted this spreadsheet which I made up for a friend before the Encyclopedia came out. You can mine it for differences; I haven't changed it since the book came out. There are some mouseover notes, but the list is kind of lazily thrown together and based on the combined efforts of me and Dom (probably mostly Dom) from some time in 2014.


My New Year has mostly been forcibly relaxed; I needed a break from work. At first I thought this series was going to be the diversion I needed, but then I got to the White Goddess files and all of a sudden it was hard work. So I got me a real diversion, and I'm good now, and working on the next post. :)


Thanks for these. And thanks for the table. I notice some names right off that are not in the guide or recognizable. Kin and Windfinders it seems. And holy bazunga that is a huge post you just made! Some really interesting reading ahead. Thanks for giving us what Tor should have imo.

ETA:
It could be that they realized that in the books Jordan had established that only one Brown and one Gray were in the Tower group that kidnapped Rand. So Serafelle being there would be a problem. Of course her exclusion based on that makes the inclusion in the Companion of other Grays and Browns even sillier. It would have been nice if what they did was include everything and note where it contradicts what he ended up using in the books. But there is almost an odd religious dogma involved but maybe part of that comes from having to carefully guard stuff so they can keep pretending the same 'legacy being fulfilled' approach they took when they announced the series would continue after his death. There is a weird 'he was complete' that actually robs his legacy so much in that of course he changed his mind. That makes his work stronger. Not weaker or less imo.

Terez 01-26-2016 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Rutherford (Post 235458)
It could be that they realized that in the books Jordan had established that only one Brown and one Gray were in the Tower group that kidnapped Rand. So Serafelle being there would be a problem.

Good point. I had forgotten that. I had to go find the quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOC 53
They had stopped early of necessity today, and the afternoon sun made long shadows of the tents and wagons beside the road. Rolling plains and low hills surrounded the camp, with only a few scattered thickets in sight, most sparse and small. Thirty-three Aes Sedai added to the original six, with their servants— and Warders; nine were Green, only thirteen Red, and the rest White, Alviarin's former Ajah—made a considerable encampment even without counting Gawyn and his soldiers.

There is a list on EWOT of the named sisters in the delegation:

Quote:

Originally Posted by EWOT
Coiren Saeldain — Gray Ajah — captured
Erian Boroleos — Green Ajah — captured
Galina Casban — Red Ajah — captured by the Shaido
Katerine Alruddin — Red Ajah — captured
Nesune Bihara — Brown Ajah — captured
Sarene Nemdahl — White Ajah — captured
Amira Moselle — Red Ajah — killed
Beldeine Nyram — Green Ajah — captured
Chisaine Nurbaya — Red Ajah — captured
Covarla Baldene — Red Ajah — escaped
Elza Penfell — Green Ajah — captured
Fera — White Ajah — captured
Hattori — Green Ajah — escaped
Innina Darenhold — Red Ajah — captured
Irgain Fatamed — Green Ajah — stilled and captured
Janine Pavlara — Red Ajah — captured
Laigin Arnault — Red Ajah — killed
Lusonia Cole — escaped
Marith Riven - captured
Mayam
Ronaille Vevanios — stilled and captured
Sashalle Anderly — Red Ajah - stilled and captured
Vayelle Kamsa — Red Ajah - captured
Turanna Norill — White Ajah - captured
Vasha — Green Ajah - escaped

This is RJ's list, with Ajah and given status, from the Aes Sedai file in Box 55, pp. 112-114 (this is not copied word for word except when quotes are given):

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
1) Galina Casban - Red/Black - captured by Shaido
2) Coiren Saeldain - Gray - captured by Rand
3) Katerine Alruddin - Red/Black - captured by Rand; "Escaped from captivity among the Aiel [?after ?? days in the tents?] with the aid of Darkfriend Aiel with whom she made contact almost by accident."
4) Beldeine Nyram - Green - captured by Rand
5) Turanna Norill - White - captured by Rand
6) Cairlyn Nesolle - Yellow - captured by Rand
7) Erian Boroleos - Green - captured by Rand
8) Covarla Baldene - Red - escaped
9) Sarene Nemdahl - White - captured by Rand
10) Marith Riven - Brown - captured by Rand
11) Nesune Bihara - Brown - captured by Rand
12) Mayam Colomna - White - captured by Rand
13) Elza Penfell - Green/Black - captured by Rand
14) Fera Sormen - White/Black - captured by Rand
15) Vayelle Kamsa - Red - captured by Rand
16) Janine Pavlara - Red - captured by Rand
17) Irgain Fatamed - Green - stilled and captured by Rand
18) Sashalle - Red - stilled and captured by Rand
19) Ronaille Talmoran - White - stilled and captured by Rand
20) Caren Endelle - Red - escaped with Covarla
21) Dolera Meith - Red - escaped with Covarla
22) Valene Sural - Red - escaped with Covarla
23) Chisaine Nurbaya - Red - captured by Rand
24) Innina Darenhold - Red - captured by Rand
25) Hattori Gatano - Green - escaped with Covarla
26) Lusonia Colewin - Green - escaped with Covarla
27) Sanaiye Asaheen - Green - escaped with Covarla
28) Nelavaire Demasiellin - Green - captured by Rand
29) Teire Alentaine - Gray - escaped with Covarla
30) Elaiva Walfor - Gray - captured by Rand
31) Nalaene Forrell - Yellow - captured by Rand
32) Serafelle Tanisloe - Brown - escaped with Covarla
33) Razina Hazzan - Brown - captured by Rand
34) Chai Rugan - Brown - escaped with Covarla
35) Wyndera Ovan - White - escaped with Covarla
36) Nubei Peldovni - White - escaped with Covarla
37) Mirlene Cornwell - Green - killed at Dumai's Wells
38) Laigin Arnault - Red - killed at Dumai's Wells
39) Amira Mosalle - Red - killed at Dumai's Wells

As for the Browns and Grays and Yellows (not Coiren and Nesune): Cairlyn, Marith Riven, Teire, Elaiva, Nalaene, and Razina all got mentions in the Companion. Serafelle and Chai Rugan got entries but there was no mention of their having been at Dumai's Wells. Marith Riven and Nalaene were mentioned in the books as having been there, but their Ajahs were never given (except Black for Nalaene, and Chai Rugan).

C Rutherford 01-27-2016 04:39 PM

Delayed due to board having a stroke but.....


Ohhh yeah! I'm like the whole strength issues well enough but there is something about lists (which I guess the strength tables are an extension of) that I just love! I have always been sad not to know who the unnamed sisters are in Siuan's delegation to Fal Fara. I wanted to know who all Cadsuane's coterie were. Who was with Illesien in those tents. Heck I wanted to know who the Red was that Rahvin got his hands on and then ran off when Rand came across her (part of an over all list of Reds).

I think in part it taps into the completeness of world building I get such a kick out of. When RJ mentions someone and they later show up -- Maigan, Maris, Atuan and Bennae. Or Serafelle for that matter.

Every time I got to add to the list of Sitters in any of the Halls I felt a tiny little sense of accomplishment.

So.

Thank you. Even if it seems he did not use this. I wonder what his reasoning was for change? Simple math? By the time of Egwene being captured by Elaida, the Whites had to be pretty thin on the floor in the Tower with the split, the kidnapping and the attack on the Black Tower. Maybe he meant it to go the other way and he never fixed it or meant to like he did the Joiya error in Ajah.

Terez 01-27-2016 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Rutherford (Post 235467)
Ohhh yeah! I'm like the whole strength issues well enough but there is something about lists (which I guess the strength tables are an extension of) that I just love! I have always been sad not to know who the unnamed sisters are in Siuan's delegation to Fal Fara. I wanted to know who all Cadsuane's coterie were. Who was with Illesien in those tents.

Yeah, me too. Aside from Dumai's Wells and the Hall, my biggest curiosity was Toveine's group. I was actually kind of surprised to find these lists in the notes because I had never thought RJ would be quite that thorough.

Anyway, all in due time, but since you demonstrated that you had already investigated Dumai's Wells and the Serafelle continuity in the Companion, I figured you had earned a preview of Aes Sedai 55. ;)

C Rutherford 01-27-2016 07:38 PM

:D:D:D

rand 01-27-2016 10:49 PM

Man, I'm seriously jealous of RJ's notes. If anything I write ever gets published the notes would consist of elegible scrawls on scrap paper and some doodles on napkins. Not that I likely have to worry about it winding up in a library anyway...

And holy crap, did you really get 732 people to view this thread all at once and blow the site up?

Terez 01-27-2016 10:51 PM

There were over 2000 people who viewed the thread in a 24-hour period; 732 was just the most there were at one time. But that's not what blew the site up. According to bossman, it was an accumulation of spam on the home page.

The Unreasoner 01-28-2016 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 235486)
There were over 2000 people who viewed the thread in a 24-hour period; 732 was just the most there were at one time. But that's not what blew the site up. According to bossman, it was an accumulation of spam on the home page.

Congrats?

Terez 01-29-2016 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Unreasoner (Post 235505)
Congrats?

I'm glad it wasn't my fault the site blew up. I should elaborate that it was an accumulation of spam over time that did it, so it wasn't like a Twitter or reddit link attracted a bunch of Twitter and reddit spambots. (I asked; bossman said that wasn't it.)

As to the forum record, that says more about the interest in RJ's notes than it says about me. I think everyone here knows I'm happy to deliver, though the lazy part of me wishes I could have just "hoovered up the whole collection and put it online", in the (paraphrased) words of the great Alan Romanczuk.

Terez 01-29-2016 04:05 AM

ADVICE TO NEW WRITERS (8/1)
 
From here on I will be moving through Box 8, Folder 1. There are more files relevant to our interests in this folder than there were in Box 4, so it will take a while to get through it.

The first file I'll summarize is called "ADVICE TO NEW WRITERS: A Listing of Useful Tips, Hints and Information. Copyright 1985, Robert Jordan". File heading: ADVICE TO NEW WRITERS -- JORDAN. It is 7 pages, single-spaced, long paragraphs and (by eyeball) 12-point font.

This is one that I am hoping Team Jordan will put on the internet in full one day, but for now, you get a summary with some quotes.

The file begins:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
You will note that I have entitled this ADVICE TO NEW WRITERS, not ADVICE TO YOUNG WRITERS. This is because I do not believe you have to be particularly young to begin writing, nor any particular age at all.

He then goes on to give his own story, and then a few examples of writers who started young, including Gore Vidal. One important detail that I don't think (??) he ever mentioned in the interviews we have in the database: he submitted his first manuscript at age 18. Then he didn't start writing again until he was 30, when he had a workplace injury (that part is well known).

Much of the advice on publishing that RJ gives in this file is probably outdated, since self-publishing has changed the market so much. I think Brandon has probably written something similar that reflects modern submission guidelines, though I couldn't find anything dedicated to that topic on a quick google. I know he's talked about it in interviews, though.

RJ recommends a book called Writer's Market ("which should be available at your local library"—later he recommends against buying it because much of the information is out of date; he recommends finding a current edition of Literary Marketplace instead) for an overview on how to prepare a manuscript, and he adds advice like "No staples, no brads, no post-and-screw mounts."

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
NOTE: I will shift back and forth from he to she in this when referring to the editor. Most editors, in my experience, are women, but there are a goodly number of male editors as well. Too great an attempt at writing that is sex-bias free makes for stilted writing.

He then has more advice about preparing manuscripts, formatting, hints about the editor's perspective and why she wants it exactly this way. Perhaps the most relevant bit of advice for today's writers:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Sample chapters should be the first three or four of the book, up to a maximum of fifty or sixty manuscript pages. DO NOT pick out what you consider the best or most exciting chapters of the book. This is a sign of amateurism that will almost certainly get your work rejected out of hand. Sending the first three or four chapters lets an editor see how you intend to hook the reader and how you handle development and continuity.

His essential book recommendations: by Lawrence Block, Telling Lies for Fun and Profit and Writing the Novel: from Plot to Print; Writing and Selling Science Fiction (Science Fiction Writers of America) and Mystery Writer's Handbook (Mystery Writers of America); Elements of Style (Strunk and White), Fowler's Modern English Usage, "any of the Harbrace College English Handbooks", and a "GOOD" dictionary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Words and language are a writer's tools. A man who wants to work with computers or cars knows he has to learn how to use them; too many people assume they can use words and language just because they can read, write, and talk. Very, very few people can.

He then recommends subscribing to Writer's Digest, if for no other reason than a monthly Lawrence Block column.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
IMPORTANT: The most common problem in the early manuscripts of most writers is point of view, which editors contract to POV. In any scene the POV character is the character through whose eyes the reader sees the scene. It is not necessary to continually say "John saw," or "John heard." If the scene is done properly the reader gets the idea with none, or at least a minimum, of this. The POV character is the only character in a scene whose thoughts are known. You cannot get inside the head of more than one character in a scene without losing POV.

He then notes that showing is preferred over telling, and active constructions are preferred over passive ones. He advises the writer to READ, not just for pleasure, but to learn, always asking yourself what it is, exactly, that makes the writing good. He advises against trying to "catch the wave" of whatever thing is currently ground-breaking, because it's always too late. "It is best to write the book you want to write". He also recommends avoiding influence from whatever is popular on TV or in theaters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Complete your manuscript before making a submission. It is true that most houses only want to see an outline and some sample chapters (again, these should always be the first three or four, never chapters picked because you think they are the best in the book), however, unless you have a known track record (i.e. unless you have had books bought by this house before, or published elsewhere, so they can have some idea of your abilities over a complete manuscript), the publishing house will, if they think the sample chapters and outline indicate the book will be something they might want to publish, ask to see the rest of the manuscript. Only writers with long track records get contracts based solely on outline and sample chapters or outline alone.

RJ advises you to keep a copy of your manuscript, along with some outdated advice on carbon copies vs Xerox copies. He advises against mentioning previous submissions and rejections to new publishers. He advises against sending "shopworn" manuscripts to new publishers. He advises against amateurish "tricks like turning a particular page upside down to see if the editor actually read that far".

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Write. WRITE. WRITE! Submit. SUBMIT. SUBMIT! Write every day. It doesn't matter what the schedule is so long as you stick to it. A certain number of pages a day. A certain number of hours a day. Just do it. And as soon as you finish a short story, a magazine piece, or a novel, then submit it to a market. When it goes into the mail, start writing the next immediately. If the piece comes back (and it probably will, in the beginning), send it out again. When the second is in the mail, start the third. If the first and the second come back, send them out again. And again. And again. Send the third out. And write the fourth piece. And the fifth. And send them out. And so on, and so on. No manuscript ever sold sitting in a drawer. JONATHON {sic} LIVINGSTON SEAGULL went to nineteen publishers before being accepted.

He then advises against rewriting based on rejection comments; he says you should only rewrite based on the comments of an invested editor, unless you get the exact same comments with at least three rejections. He says if a rejection offers another look contingent on certain changes, "then you have a decision to make".

He advises you to keep your rejection letters for tax purposes, as they demonstrate that you are attempting to make a living from writing, which makes certain expenses tax-deductible. (Really.)

Final quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
The above is a quick and dirty course in becoming a writer. It isn't a complete course, but it does cover most of the essentials of what I say to college writing classes and those who come my panels {sic} on how to write at science fiction conventions. It is enough to get you started, for it contains information that most beginning writers take years to acquire, if they ever do. You may well be saying by this time that most if not all of the rules I have given above are broken now and again (sometimes frequently) by experienced writers. The key word there is experienced. You are not experienced. In time you will be, and then you can decide which rules you want to break and how to break them. You will be able to do it on purpose, though, and not by accident. For now, my advice is to take the above rules as Words from On High.

Good luck, and good writing.


Davian93 01-29-2016 10:27 AM

Quote:

Write. WRITE. WRITE! Submit. SUBMIT. SUBMIT! Write every day. It doesn't matter what the schedule is so long as you stick to it. A certain number of pages a day. A certain number of hours a day. Just do it. And as soon as you finish a short story, a magazine piece, or a novel, then submit it to a market.
You hear that, George RR Martin?!? YOU FREAKING HEAR THAT, YOU LAZY FUCK???

Terez 01-29-2016 10:40 AM

This is called ADVICE TO NEW WRITERS, not ADVICE TO WRITERS WHO HAVE ALREADY MADE A BILLION DOLLARS.

Davian93 01-29-2016 11:14 AM

He's a new writer in the sense that formerly promiscuous girls that suddenly don't have sex anymore are "reborn virgins"...

rand 01-29-2016 10:33 PM

The writing advice is pretty cool. I hope they do allow it to be published in full at some point. Any idea what RJ's intentions were with writing it? It doesn't seem like he ever showed it to the public (until now). Unless he just whipped it out for friends or stuff like that.

Terez 01-30-2016 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand (Post 235539)
The writing advice is pretty cool. I hope they do allow it to be published in full at some point. Any idea what RJ's intentions were with writing it? It doesn't seem like he ever showed it to the public (until now). Unless he just whipped it out for friends or stuff like that.

I suspect it was a form letter for responding to fan mail. I said that in my tweet; I should have said it in the post, I guess.

sleepinghour 03-01-2016 08:48 AM

Team Jordan posted some of RJ's notes about the Cleansing at their Google+ page a few weeks ago. The file contains a list of all characters present and the current strength of all female channelers on Rand's side. Cadsuane's strength was given as 5/+8. Nynaeve is still one level below her potential.

Quote:

PARTY TO SHADAR LOGOTH: Rand, Min, *Nynaeve (Yellow; 4/+9), Lan, *Cadsuane (Green; 5/+8), *Alivia ( 1/+12; with Nynaeve’s jewelry), *Verin (Brown; 17/5; Tomas), *Corele Hovian (Yellow; 18/6; Damer); *Merise (Green; 14/2; Jahar, Nethan, Bassane); *Daigian (White; 45/33; Eben Hopwil); *Kumira Dhoran (Brown; 24/12; none); *Nesune Bihara (Brown; 15/3); *Sarene Nemdahl (White; 18/6), Erian Boroleos (Green; 17/5); *Elza Penfell (Green; 25/13); *Beldeine Nyram (Green; 16/4). *Shalon, Harine, Moad.
The rest of the file is a brief bulletpoint summary of the various battles between the Forsaken and Cadsuane's team, but doesn't provide much information beyond what was already in the book. RJ's summary does suggest Cyndane tried to balefire Alivia; I don't think that's ever implied in the book. Cyndane attacks Alivia with a small ball of Fire, which is unraveled by Alivia's ter'angreal, but there's nothing in the text to suggest it was balefire. So maybe RJ changed his mind about that (he did insert a question mark there), or it happened off-screen.

Quote:

*Cyndane encounters Alivia, balefire (?) breaks, and she is driven back.
There's also a recent post about the origins of Valan Luca's circus.

Terez 03-02-2016 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 236355)
Team Jordan posted some of RJ's notes about the Cleansing at their Google+ page a few weeks ago.

Someone mentioned this to me on Facebook the other day because they thought I had posted it. I told them I hadn't, but maybe Team Jordan had posted it on Google+. I hadn't gotten around to checking, though. Glad he didn't just imagine it. :) This file is in Box 59, so I wouldn't have gotten to it for a long time.

JonathanLevy 06-17-2016 05:44 PM

Terez - Thank you so very much for this.
 
It must really be a delight to poke through these boxes and see how the Wheel of Time came about. This is exactly the type of material I had fondly hoped would be in the Companion. At the same time, it must really be a sisyphian task. Your determination is also much appreciated.

I patiently (and eagerly) await your next post here, as I am sure do many others.

Terez 06-19-2016 01:30 AM

Hi there! I could have sworn you'd posted here before. For those who don't remember, Mr. Levy was one of the more helpful people in the last WOTGH where we decoded the Cadsuane bio.

Apologies for the long slack on this project--partly that's because I don't want to dump it all at once, and partly it's because I'll take any excuse to be lazy. We did a panel on the notes at JordanCon, so that made me feel like I did my bit for a little while.

I think I will feel a little more inclined to spend time on this once GOT is over. I'm going a reread and a rewatch so that kind of sucks up all my free time. That and Dragon Ball Super, but that show doesn't take hiatuses so it will continue to occupy me at least one night a week for the foreseeable future.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:03 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.