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WinespringBrother 04-26-2017 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241557)
The Myrelle-Nynaeve bond passing also seems like it would have been a good moment. Sad to see it didn't make it to the books.

It did:
Quote:

Towers of Midnight CHAPTER: 20 - A Choice
Myrelle froze. Then she sighed and stepped back out of the tent. "So be it." She closed her eyes, weaving Spirit and sending the weaves into Nynaeve. It felt like an object being shoved physically into her mind. Nynaeve gasped, her surroundings spinning. Myrelle turned and slipped back into her tent. Nynaeve slid down until she was sitting on the ground. Something was blossoming inside her mind. An awareness. Beautiful, wonderful. It was him. And he was still alive. Blessed Light, she thought, eyes closed. Thank you.

fionwe1987 04-26-2017 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinespringBrother (Post 241562)
It did:

No, I mean the part about Nynaeve insisting Lan be there and agree to the passing.

Terez 04-27-2017 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241557)
Wow. Why in the world wasn't any of this incorporated in the books? The whole Finn-memory thing in particular sounds creepy and awful.

The most interesting bit to me is how she's going to be absolutely terrified of Rand if she ever sees him again.

Quote:

She will recall that once she was brought back to consciousness to find a man there (Ishamael, though she doesn't know it, already as Moridin), apparently young, tall, muscular, beautifully handsome. She was not the woman he wanted. He wasn't interested in her at all, and he seemed irritated at having his time wasted, impatient. She was returned to the "sleep" in moments, but she recalls his appearance very clearly; he frightened her for some reason, and maybe because he was part of her memory, as was her fear of him, the snakes(?)/foxes(?) incorporated him into her dreams when they went to making things more complicated for her. The reinforcement, plus the things done in those particular dreams, have increased that fear to the point where she shivers thinking of him and her teeth might chatter if she saw him in the flesh.

sleepinghour 04-27-2017 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 241555)
No one asked about Moiraine, but there's some interesting stuff in her entry that I actually typed out last time we visited (on that last day when we couldn't scan) and I kept secret all this time because I thought it might make it into the Companion.

Interesting stuff indeed! Thank you for the tidbits. I wish some of that had been included in the Companion, or better yet in a Moiraine POV in ToM or AMoL. It would have showed the extent of her sacrifice and helped explain her feelings for Thom a bit more.

Is there anything about Siuan to suggest RJ might've planned to keep her alive past the Last Battle?

Quote:

Myrelle took Lan to her bed; this was to last until she had begun making him think of life again, to however small a degree, it being her belief that fucking makes you center on life rather than death. She had to use the bond to compel him, sometimes, which she found both odd and somewhat insulting.
That settles another question: did Myrelle use the bond to force Lan to sleep with her? I always thought there had to have been some compulsion involved since Lan "flinched slightly, like a nervous horse" when Myrelle touched his arm in ACoS. For Lan of all people to react like that... It's practically a running joke in the series how Lan barely twitching an eyelash is the equivalent of another man having a nervous breakdown, so flinching at Myrelle's touch seemed like a glaring sign that something was amiss there.

I'm guessing that for Lan, the issue was less that he had to sleep with Myrelle and more the loss of control over his own mind and will. I suspect Lan was otherwise largely beyond caring what happened to him while he was waiting for a chance to die. New Spring showed he was not unused to being forced into bed via Malkieri customs, and he thought Nynaeve was lost to him at that point. The Companion claims that "Nynaeve knew that Lan had made love with Myrelle, which he did in an attempt to break himself from Nynaeve." So, apparently sometimes he went along with it; at other times he was unwilling to the point that Myrelle had to use the bond to compel him.

Additionally, rape was a recurring theme in ACoS: Morgase by Valda, Moghedien by Shaidar Haran, Mat by Tylin, and Lan by Myrelle. Two women, two men. It took me a few rereads to notice the parallels between the storylines—Moghedien's rape wasn't even made clear until RJ answered a reader question about what Shaidar Haran did to her—but I suspect RJ set out to include different forms of rape in the book. Morgase was tortured into Valda's bed; in Moghedien's case the rape was part of her torture. Tylin and Myrelle were both Ebou Dari and didn't view what they were doing as wrong; Myrelle thought she was helping Lan. That Myrelle was later forced to bond and sleep with Kairen's former Warder (Llyw, who was said to resemble an Ogier) seemed like RJ's usual type of karmic comeuppance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241557)
Wow. Why in the world wasn't any of this incorporated in the books? The whole Finn-memory thing in particular sounds creepy and awful.

I wonder if Brandon had that in mind when he wrote the Moiraine/Lan scene in AMoL, where Rand described them as acting distant ("They were civil, but there was a distance between them that [Rand] had not expected"). I wish we'd gotten to see their reunion to explain that. It kind of felt like a sad ending to their twenty-year-old friendship. I would have expected Lan to initially be angry, but come to terms with it and repeat what he told her in TGH: “Honor to serve, Moiraine Aes Sedai. It has been and will be so, always.” It would have been nice with some closure.

To fill in the blanks, I'm guessing Moiraine probably spared Lan from knowing everything that happened to her. On Moiraine's part, her memories of Lan and everybody save Thom have been distorted and used to torture her. Will she ever be able to remember the pond incident again without also remembering how the Finns distorted that memory? Similarly, Rand now exists inside the body of someone she strongly associates with that experience ("The reinforcement, plus the things done in those particular dreams, have increased that fear to the point where she shivers thinking of him and her teeth might chatter if she saw him in the flesh.") To me, that sounds like the worst part of everything she went through: the Finns desecrating almost every memory and relationship she held dear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241557)
The Myrelle-Nynaeve bond passing also seems like it would have been a good moment. Sad to see it didn't make it to the books.

I'm guessing that RJ intended for the passing of the bond to mirror the Malkieri custom of the man's carneira handing over the daori to the new wife on their wedding day. But I think I actually prefer the way it happened in the books. That Lan wasn't around for the bond transfer made it seem more meaningful when the bond was the only way for them to communicate and know the other was alive.

fionwe1987 04-27-2017 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 241569)
The most interesting bit to me is how she's going to be absolutely terrified of Rand if she ever sees him again.

And how she played it masterfully cool when she did see Moridin at the Pit of Doom. All those moments would have had more meaning if we knew what she went through. What an utterly stupid decision to leave it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 241570)
I wonder if Brandon had that in mind when he wrote the Moiraine/Lan scene in AMoL, where Rand described them as acting distant ("They were civil, but there was a distance between them that [Rand] had not expected"). I wish we'd gotten to see their reunion to explain that. It kind of felt like a sad ending to their twenty-year-old friendship. I would have expected Lan to initially be angry, but come to terms with it and repeat what he told her in TGH: “Honor to serve, Moiraine Aes Sedai. It has been and will be so, always.” It would have been nice with some closure.

I was always a little confused by the distance thing. I mean, I can now explain why Moiraine was distant, but I cannot imagine Lan learning that Moiraine put both their lives in danger for the Dragon Reborn and thinking anything but that she did exactly what duty demanded of her, and being proud of her for it.

Frankly, I think not seeing the Moiraine-Lan and Moiraine-Siuan reunion was one of the biggest misses in the last book. These three started this whole set of events, and lost so much to get the world ready for the Last Battle. It was not a small, meaningless moment that we missed, and all for yet more pages of meaningly Trolloc horde attacking meaningless random group of men.

Terez 04-27-2017 07:58 PM

A few more requests from Facebook:

1. Silviana - this was the only interesting bit in her entry that wasn't in the Companion:

Quote:

Silviana was particularly strict with Shemerin after Shemerin was reduced to Accepted. In Silviana's view, the reduction was nonsense -- an Aes Sedai was an Aes Sedai forever unless stilled -- and she saw it more as Shemerin suffering through a particularly odd penance that required her to abide by the rules set for Accepted. But Shemerin's reaction to it, and her behavior, especially the way she allowed Accepted, and occasionally even novices toward the end, to get the better of her, displeased Silviana no end. Besides which, Shemerin had a difficult time following the rules. Shemerin did not, in Silviana's eyes, behave as an Aes Sedai should in these circumstances -- far, far from it; any penance should be borne with a much dignity as possible, not with moaning and hand wringing and whining -- and so Shemerin bore down on her. It was her hopes, much as with the girls, that strict punishments would make Shemerin straighten up and behave properly, force her to serve out her "penance" in a manner suitable for an Aes Sedai. She is infuriated the Shemerin ran away.
2. Adeleas and Vandene - the only really unique bit in their entries (mostly copied) was a chronology bit:

Quote:

Pg 357

Namelle, Adeleas: R. Brown Ajah.

[skip]

Pg 358

[skip]

Travel time for Adeleas and Vandene from the Borderlands to Salidar: Roughly 2500 miles or more. Over that distance, they couldn't average more that 20-205 miles per days max. [sic] 100-125 days minimum. Siuan was stilled sometimes in May or June, say. Say June-July for word to reach them, as well as for them to learn "Sallie Daera" message. Arrival: September earliest - November.

Pg 359

They may have been on the way to Tar Valon at time they heard.

[skip]

X

[Vandene: 360-362; basically repeat of Adeleas]
3. Aisling Noon

Quote:

Pg 378

Noon, Aisling: Green Ajah. L

[skip]

Aisling was born with the spark. Per Tua'athan custom, as soon as this was discovered, the caravan headed to Tar Valon where she was handed over to the White Tower. This is the only way that Teethe [sic] women enter the Tower. Per Verin (reported in NS:tN), they do not wish to become Aes Sedai nor have anything to do with the Power.

X
4. Laras - her entry was boring, but I found this in Elaida's entry:

Quote:

[skip to p.20]

People Elaida has met of has knowledge of:

[skip]

Laras: Mistress of the Kitchens (given title by Siuan Sanche; formerly merely the chief cook). Elaida is not really aware she exists.
Elaida does not know that Laras was involved in Siuan's escape. This woman may yet become a spy/mole inside Tar Valon.
5. Annoura - another chronology tidbit, and a few other things:

Quote:

Larisen, Annoura: U. Gray Ajah.

[stuff in books]

Pg 282

A VERIN-TYPE in many ways, though she is Gray.

[skip]

She heard rumors that Moiraine had been killed. AT the time she decided to set out from Mayene, had no knowledge of any other Aes Sedai near Rand except for reports of a Green sister she doesn't know (Egwene: name known?), who according to Berelain's last report, was spending all of her time with the Wise Ones. She didn't know of the kidnaping until she arrived in Cairhien.
TIME INVOLVED: 150 miles across the bay to Goaban (1 days sail), then roughly 300 miles (10-15 days) to Haddon Mirk (rough travel, and slower), then approx 750 miles to Cairhien (25-38 days, plus time getting a new ship at least at Tear}, and possibly as much as 26-30 days. Therefore ship travel is more likely despite necessity of passing through Tear, where at least AS are not under ban.
Thus, to arrive between the time the pursuit left chasing Rand and the time he returned, she would have to have departed Mayene maybe the day Egwene was summoned to Salidar and certainly before Perrin arrived in Caemlyn. Possibly earlier than either event.

Basically, the Wise Ones look on Annoura no differently that they have begun looking on all of the sisters, despite her connection to Berelain, who some of them at least (Sorilea, a key; Amys; Bair; maybe some others) look upon with a degree of affection and/or liking. At best, there is a sort of toleration for Berelain's sake. She does not like and does not understand the Wise Ones view of Aes Sedai.

X
6. Bera Harkin - nothing not in the books
7. Sashalle Anderly - nothing not in the books
8. Lemai Ambani - nothing

9. Nesune

Quote:

Bihara, Nesune. L. Brown Ajah.

[stuff in books]

Egwene attended several of her classes as a novice. As a teacher of novices, could tell when someone's attention drifted even with her back turned. {CHECK! EARLIER NOTES GAVE HER NAME AS CHALEDI.}

[stuff in books]

X
10. Brendas

Quote:

Brendas: R. White Ajah.

[stuff in books]

Query: Was she one of the White sisters who accompanied Siuan to Fal Dara?

She and Temaile had the duty of attending Tamra and Gitara just before Moiraine and Siuan on the night before Gitara's Foretelling regarding the Dragon Reborn.

X
11. Kiruna

Quote:

Pg 352

Nachiman, Kiruna: R. Green, F26. Oathsworn to the Dragon Reborn. In Cairhien.

Nationality: Arafellin. Sister to the King of Arafel (younger than he by two years).

Description: Elegant...

[skip]

Strength Level: 14 (2). Almost the 700 year age level.
Note: Kiruna and Bera are approximately equal in strength; clearly stronger than Alanna, Verin or any of the rebel embassy under Merana. Before the advent of Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve, she was of the second rank behind only Siuan, Moiraine and Elayne (since Romanda had retired, and Cadsuane was believed dead).

[skip]

Born: 939 NE. Came to the White Tower in 953 NE (age 14); was four years a novice (953-957 NE); four years Accepted (957-961 NE). Raised Aes Sedai at age 22. Slowed at age 25. She and Bera Harkin were pillow friends; although both went on to men exclusively later, they have remained the closest of friends.

Warders: Four, disparate men. No further description as of CoT.

Horse:

Check, but In think the horse which now belongs to Min was bought by forced purchase by Rand from Kiruna. Or was it his own Aesdaishar? [it was, and it was a gelding when Kiruna had it, but it became a stallion when Rand had it]

[skip]

Pg 353

[skip]

Rode a dark gelding to Dumai's Wells.

[skip]

Kiruna, who was the most obviously prideful and most obviously scornful of her "so-called" place as apprentice, has been forced into the most menial chores, plus having her bottom spanked, strapped and/or switched by Sorilea (mostly, but by others as well) at regular intervals for the most trivial fault since arriving in Cairhien; Sorilea

Pg 354

intends to teach her the difference between pride and arrogance. "She must learn that she owns her pride, it does not own her." She may not have taught Kiruna that yet, but Sorilea has certainly taught her that she had damned well better behave as if she really is an apprentice no matter what she believes.

When Rand went to the Sea Folk ship anchored off Cairhien, Kiruna was in a "consultation" with Sorilea "on a matter of protocol," which Bera seemed eager to ger [sic] her out of; in fact, she was receiving a lesson in what happens to apprentice Wise Ones who think they can't [sic] come over arrogant with Wise Ones.

X
12. Romanda - nothing

13. Beonin: (296-298) RJ: "What did Beonin say about Elaida & the situation int he Tower in Salidar? About the deposing of Siuan?" [Maria gives the quote]

14. Eldrith: "Amadician (relatively few Aes Sedai come from there, almost all highly motivated and even driven)."

15. Felaana: "Strength Level: <17 (5)." (It was given as straight up 17(5) in the Companion.)

16. Bernaile

Quote:

Gelbarn, Bernaile: R. White Ajah. She was the second, after Zerah, to be taken by Seaine and Pevara.

Nationality: Taraboner.

[skip]

Like all of the sisters chosen for the Fifth column, Bernaile was out of the Tower when Siuan was deposed and the Tower broke, so there was no flight to arouse any suspicions toward her. Apparently, she simply returned in answer to Elaida's summons.

What if anything does Bernaile know about the "male channeler pogrom?"

X
17. Sarene - nothing
18. Careane - nothing

19. Ispan

Quote:

Pg 437

Shefar, Ispan: Blue Ajah (BA)

[skip]

Sent off by Moghedien on another task. Kissed Moghedien's hem at learning her task; F18. Because she was sent after the

Pg 438

cache, because of the trust it implies to her. Given instruction separately from the others so none would know more than one was going to the same place. She was told she would meet someone with whom she was to cooperate at a certain place, and she did not know that person was Falion Bhoda until they met. [...] Even they did not know until later, when they reached a place where ach was supposed to meet a "companion," and found the other.

[skip]
20. Marillin - nothing
21. Moria - nothing
22. Sedore

Quote:

Dajenna, Sedore: L. Yellow Ajah. (Black)

[stuff in books]

Pg 150

MAYBE; MAYBE NOT: Sedore knows that Alviarin is BA; she herself also sits on the Supreme Council, and Alviarin is one of the 3 names she knows, though not part of her own trio.

Sedore does not know that Velina is on the Council or even Black.

X
23. Temaile - nothing
24. Sharina

Quote:

Melloy, Sharina: GH 23, P30, WH10. Later, a novice. R.

Nationality: Murandian; born and lived not far from the border with Andor.

Description: She plainly is not young (about sixty). (P30) Egwene's POV: [quotes] With slowing, she will appear somewhat younger, perhaps a youthful 50s, or even into apparent 40s. She has a powerful, handsome face, too strong to be pretty, though some might call her beautiful. Not everyone would, though. Striking is the more usual term, along with strong-faced. Tall and straight-backed, with an almost over-powering presence and a strong tendency to dominate everyone around her.

Strength: (p) 2(+11) {A step higher than Nynaeve.} Almost the 800-year age level. And because of her age, she will rise in strength at a steep angle.

[skip]

X
25. Rina Hafden - nothing

26. Siuan

Quote:

Pg 407

Sanche, Siuan: R. Blue Ajah

[skip]

Description: [...] (After Being Stilled): {Renee' Zellweger}. Fair skinned, blue-eyed, more than handsome, less than beautiful. Eyes still sharp. [...]

[skip]

Pg 40

Siuan was novice and Accepted with Moiraine. The pair were very close friends. The two most common pairings of extremely close friends among novices and Accepted are between women who are from very much the same sort of background and between women who are from what seems opposite backgrounds. She and Moiraine began as friends who cried on one another's shoulder about the hardships of being a novice or after a switching from the Mistress of NOvices, and this eventually grew into a sexual relationship ("pillow friends"). Neither woman is gay; they were just young women with normal libidos in a cloistered society, cut off from men. This relationship continued after they became Accepted, and even for a time after they were raised Aes Sedai, though never again with the intensity that it did when they were younger.

As novice and Accepted both, it was Siuan who always took the lead between her and Moiraine. This startled Moiraine at first, until she decided that it seemed natural, that Siuan had been born to lead.

[skip]

Pg 412

[skip]

Gareth Bryne: Siuan is flabbergasted to realize that she has fallen in love with him, and indeed tries to deny it or shake it out of herself. One, she has never had time for of thing; two, she certainly has no time for it now, and three, if she did have time, he is the last man she would chose. [sic] She tries to blame it on the "apparent" youth that came from being stilled. She is almost as horrified to learn that he is in love with her, though he says nothing right out.

She may think that viewing no longer applies. Maybe the irritation he presented would have been part of helping keep her alive had she not been Healed, but now she is, so it isn't needed.

[skip]

Pg 415

KNOWLEDGE: Moghedien led Elayne and Nynaeve down a blind alley about cross-gender detection of channeling. This would be reinforced by Moiraine's belief.

Moiraine apparently believes that the Forsaken can detect the channeling of either male or female at five miles, if paying attention, and at ten or more under certain circumstances. {DR} THIS IS PART OF HER LACK OF KNOWLEDGE, LACK GENERAL AMONG AES SEDAI TODAY.

[skip]

By CHAOS Prol, in Salidar, she knows that one of the other two [Rand loves] is Elayne; expects that Min and Elayne may be at one another's throats. She doesn't intend to allow that because of how it might complicate relations with Rand.

SHE HAS PROBABLY DECIDED THAT ELAYNE, AS DAUGHTER-HEIR AND QUEEN PRESUMPTIVE OF ANDOR, CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO BE INVOLVED EMOTIONALLY WITH RAND. THUS, ELAYNE IS TO BE PUSHED AWAY FROM HIM WHILE MIN IS THROWN AT HIM WITH THE INTENTION THAT SHE WILL BE A REIN ON HIM IN AES SEDAI HANDS.

[skip]

Pg 417

[skip]

MIN'S VIEWING: That Siuan must stay close to Gareth Bryne or she will die. Siuan doesn't like it and, as usual with her and the viewings, thinks there is some way around it.

CHECK EXACT FORM OF VIEWING.

Min did not predict that siuan would be able to channel again, and Siuan may claim this proof of viewings not being infallible.

[skip]

ONE POWER, THE: [...] CHECK FOR STATEMENTS INDICATING WHERE SHE RANKS, BUT I THINK SHE AND LEANE ARE NOW MID-RANK OR LOWER.

One of Siuan's Talents was the ability to 'see' ta'veren; a minor Talent. GH 5, mmp 68. WAS THIS RESTORED WHEN SHE WAS HEALED?

[skip]

Pg 418

Cadsuane Melaidhrin:

Siuan Sanche and Moiraine Damodred had reason to research Cadsuane after their encounter with her shortly after reaching the shawl, as recounted in NEW SPRING. Those "Cadsuane stories" they were able to trace down all turned out to be true, and in some cases, the truth was more than the story. They were not able to follow or confirm all of the stories, of course. Siuan is still uncertain whether Cadsuane is Black Ajah or not. (In the novella version of NEW SPRING, Siuan neither encountered nor spoke to CAdsuane, at least on-page.)

[end @ 423]

X
27. Javindhra

Quote:

Pg 181

Doraille, Javindhra: L. Red Ajah. FProl. Loyalist Hall of the Tower.

Nationality:

Description: Angular face... [skip]

She has been, if not exactly broken, then reined in heavily by Elaida. Which she resents heartily, not only because she is Red, like Elaida, but because of her early support. Very aware of what happened to Teslyn, so she doesn't show resentment. She drags her feet in the Hall sometimes to show her independence of Elaida, but only where/when Elaida can see, however, she in effect comes running when Elaida crooks a finger. A matter of strong talk in private and yes-ma'am-right-away-ma'am in public. She would deny it vehemently (because she really doesn't believe it), but she's Elaida's puppy, now, and she hunts when Elaida says hunt and sits when Elaida says sit. Except that, given a chance to balk Elaida, she will snap at it.

[stuff from books]

X
I am too tired to proofread this.

Linda 04-27-2017 08:04 PM

Linda's information from the notes
 
Hi Theorylanders

Today in RJ's notes I found some information on what Perrin saw in the Portal Stone worlds on the way to Falme. It's more specific than was in the books.

Perrin "has stayed with Rand because of the lives he saw himself live. Sometimes he died young, sometimes he died old, sometimes in battle, sometimes in bed, but always he was linked to Rand in some way, and linked to the battle against the Shadow. Sometimes he tried to flee it, but it always caught up with him. Worse was the fact that sometimes he was overwhelmed by his contact with the wolves and went mad from it. All in all, he sees himself as very likely doomed, but fated to follow Rand. He is somewhat resigned to it, but some resent remains, some wishing that he could go home. Or at least find a peaceful village and live his life as a blacksmith and metal worker."

As for Mat:

"The other lives he “saw” himself live? In some of these, at least, he betrayed Rand in one way or another; anyway, he sees what happened that way. He doesn’t like that. He really is a prankster. He enjoys practical jokes, making jokes, even making fun of people, but he is not mean, and despite his fears about Rand and what he has become, he is loyal to his friends, even when it is reluctantly."

Linda 04-27-2017 08:38 PM

TDR notes on Lanfear -- this one's for Tam
 
I found this information on Lanfear in some notes for TDR.

"Selene: [Lanfear]

She may use other names, other appearances. She can, within very broad limits, change both her apparent age and her physical appearance. Not her general size, though. She is always the same height, etc.] No matter what Ba’alzamon wants, she has her own plans. She wants power for herself, for one thing, and none of that sitting at the feet of Ba’alzamon and ruling all below. Power in her own right, with none above her. Beside that, she wants Rand al’Thor. More specifically, she wants Lews Therin Telamon reborn. When he last lived, she lost him to another; this time she means him to be hers. She is a Power Wielder at least the equal of Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, who was accounted the most powerful of the Forsaken, but she never liked flaunting her ability, preferring to let others think she was less powerful than she actually was. This made them careless, and gave her advantages. She may well have been close to Lews Therin himself in strength."

This limits illusion a little differently than in the books. The suggestion that Lanfear disguised her ability is not new but the relative strength of Ishamael and LTT is implied to be wider than in the books. Her motivations are unwavering however.

Terez 04-27-2017 09:47 PM

The Verin entry is the only one I copied in full, just to give a sense of how these bios are typically organized, and what sort of material I skipped in the other bios.

Quote:

Pg 299

Mathwin, Verin: R. (BA)
. Brown Ajah. GH4, DR 10, Bro SR1, SR31, F14, L10.

Nationality: born in Far Madding, which is as close to an out-and-out matriarchy as exists in this world. Same city where Cadsuane was born.
Description: Short [About 5'0"] and plump/stout, placid-looking, square-faced, touch of gray in her hair. Despite ageless face, looks like somebody's mother or aunt, or the cook at an inn. Often has a dreamy look -- until she gives you a particularly penetrating stare. Some think of her stare as bird-like; a bird studying a worm. {A young Margaret Rutherford} Her fingers often are ink-stained. She habitually rubs her nose, especially in thought, frequently smudging ink there. Verin has a scar on her arm that she got, so she implies, in Tel'aran'rhiod (DR21), since she isn't a dreamwalker, she used a dream ter'angreal. She also says, with regard to this scar, that "Anaiya's Healing did not work as well as it should have."
Strength Level: 17 (5). The 650-700 year age level. ??? Alanna, Verin, Merana and Seonid are approximately equal in strength; weaker than Rafela or Faeldrin, Kiruna or Bera ???
SPECIAL SKILLS, ABILITIES AND TALENTS:
1) See notes below on her form of Compulsion.
2) A form of eavesdropping.
3) While her Talent for Healing in general is not very strong -- fairly weak actually; at least, she did not feel competent to Heal Perrin's wound from a Trolloc arrow – despite that, in one particular part of Healing, Delving to find out what is wrong with someone, she has no superior. A number of equals, but no superior.
4) She knows how to "mask" her bond with a Warder so he cannot feel her at all; this is useful for privacy, when a sister wants it. Even most celibate sisters and those without Warders know how, just as they know how to make the bond, but some who have not had a Warder bonded for a time, and those who never have, may find it difficult. Red sisters do not learn this, just as they do not learn the bonding weave.
5) She has a fairly good ability at manipulating weather. On Toman Head she did not try to lessen the storm because (1) she could only lessen so large a storm somewhat by herself, and (2) using so much of the Power would have attracted the wrong attention.
Note: Earth is "of some difficulty" for her.
Note: Verin has an angreal in the form of a small brooch carved from "some translucent stone, in the shape of a lily with too many petals." She acquired this (no source for it given as of PoD Prol) about 951 NE or so. "Almost fifty years" ago. She never wears it, but it hasn't been out of her reach since she obtained it. No one knows that she possesses this.

Pg 300

Born: 849 NE. Went to the White tower in 864 NE (age 15). Was 5 years a novice (864-869 NE); six years Accepted (869-875 NE). Raised Aes Sedai at age 26. Entered the Black Ajah in 929 NE (age 80), under duress, after she was caught while studying rumors/tales and got very close.
Parenia Demalle was Amyrlin and Sereille Bagand the Mistress of Novices when she came to the Tower (864 NE). Sereille was raised Amyrlin in 866.
Of the Kin, Asra Zigane (929 NE; 4 months), Derys Nirmala (926-936 NE), Garenia Rosoinde (923-928 NE), and Sarainya Vostovan (940-950 NE) were all there after she became Aes Sedai, and some were present about the time she was forced into the Black Ajah (929 NE).
Warder: Tomas—: gray-haired, dark-eyed, medium height (about 5'9"-5'10") but stocky. GH8, S30 (first description, mmp 493); L10.
Balinor; long dead now. It took Verin ten years to get over his death and bond Tomas.
Horse:
Clothing & Possessions:
(G6) Brown-fringed shawl; writing case hung at belt, and inkbottle in scabbard at belt [in dungeon from which Fain escaped at Fal Dara Keep].
(G14) Cloak behind saddle [joins Ingtar's/Perrin's party on road, searching for Fain and Horn].
(G32) BROWN-fringed shawl, embroidered in grape vines [going to Lord Barthanes' party, in Cairhien, with Rand's group].
(G37) Cloak with hood [chasing Fain, Portal Stone in Stedding Tsofu and at Toman Head].
(D10) In all shades of brown; hooded cloak [with Mat, Egwene, etc., on way to Tar Valon].
(S31) Plain brown dress, inkstained at cuffs [when Perrin returns to Two Rivers and is taken to cottage in woods].
(S32) Rode a nondescript browng elding, with a deep chest and a strong rump. Plain garb; pouch; a little leather case at the belt [leaving the old cottage in the woods with Alanna, Perrin, etc., on way to Whitecloak camp at Watch Hill].
(S33) Slippered feet [continuing on to Watch Hill].
(S56) Brown clad [last Trolloc attack in Two Rivers].
(L10 & L43) Rumpled pale brown dress [with Two Rivers girls in Caemlyn, meeting Rand; and in Caemlyn with Merana's Salidar embassy].
(WH13) Belt; belt pouch; simple bronze-colored dress with flowered brooch attached [with Sorilea, meeting Cadsuane in Sun Palace].
(WH24) Cloak [visiting Cadsuane in her quarters, Far Madding].


Pg 301

(WH32) Dark wool cloak; shoes and stockings [meeting Rand on streets of Far Madding in rain, when Rand asked if Cadsuane would talk with him].
Personal:
She went to the Tower instead of marrying a boy named Eadwin, who had a mischievous smile that she remembers fondly. She was driven by one thing, mainly: the desire to know; becoming Aes Sedai, becoming Brown Ajah, was the best way to do that, and that is what she wanted to try. She was surprised, pleased, frightened, all together, when she passed the tests and learned she could indeed become Aes Sedai. It was not until her visit home after about a year as a novice, though, that she realized that she really had left all of her former life behind. She has never regretted her choice; well, not really regretted. She attended the wedding of one of Eadwin's great-grandsons, and the young man had Eadwin's smile. "Luckily," no one there recognized her.

Verin's handwriting is "thin and spidery."

Her notebooks were described (by Aeron, an Aiel Wise One) as containing "some pretty drawing sand a great deal about plants and flower."
RECEIVED SOME OF HER TRAINING FROM:
DID SOME OF THE TRAINING OF: Anaiya Carel, Moiraine Damodred, Siuan Sanche, Beldeine Nyram (as a novice), Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan, .
TRAINED AS A NOVICE AND/OR ACCEPTED WITH:
Verin lived in the upper levels of the Tower Library, with their odd corridors. A number of Browns keep rooms there in addition to their rooms inside the Tower, but few actually live in the Library.
(D21) Verin's quarters above library: Accessed by narrow set of stairs that curl through library walls. Corridors little used, with dusty air in halls that take odd turns and twists, sometimes dipping or rising unexpectedly. Only a few tapestries, colors dulled from lack of cleaning. Many unlit lamps in halls, and bare black and white tiles on floor. Verin's room at top of a rise, next to tapestry of mounted king receiving surrender of another king. Dark paneled door. Shelves line walls of antechamber, except for where maps hung, some in layers, and charts of the night sky. Door to inner rooms. Books, papers and scrolls everywhere, interspersed with strange shapes of metal or glass, bones and skulls, and even a live owl. Candlesticks throughout. Cluttered table.


Verin knew about Sniffers: "Did you think you could keep something like that secret?" Very likely other sisters do, too.

Verin keeps many notes, some in the clear and some in a cipher which exists only in her head. She thinks she will have to write the cipher out, one day, but not yet. She has "a lifetime worth of notebooks" stored in her quarters above the White Tower library.

Pg 302

Verin was one of two Brown sisters who accompanied Siuan on her visit to Fal Dara; the other was Serafelle.

When Egwene asked in Medo: Moiraine had left 2 days ago, then Liandrin after her, and finally Verin; all went without a word to anyone, including Siuan.

Mat's Healing was done by a circle of ten Aes Sedai, led by Siuan Sanche. Others mentioned as being present: Sheriam, Serafelle, Alanna, Anaiya, Verin, Leane, and Brendas.

Verin "checked" & again Healed Mat, to no effect, in Cairhien.

She knows a good deal about Rand, Mat (Horn and link, but not luck), and Perrin (not wolves), and has deduced more. She asked him about whether he had chosen "the axe or the hammer." In some ways, about some things, she knows more than the Amyrlin Seat or Moiraine.

Rand told her about his and Hurin's journey to other world.

Verin knew the name Portal Stone: not a widely known artifact. She knows the locations of three Portal Stones, she says.

Verin had visited one Portal Stone personally before she brought Rand to use the one near Stedding Tsofu. That was on Toman Head, and she knew it was indicated by 2 parallel wavy lines crossed by an odd squiggle. She had some knowledge of things represented by other symbols, but it was, for the most part, largely general and speculative.

Verin believes -- or says she does, anyway -- that she would be destroyed short of enough Power to work a Portal Stone.

Verin Healed Rand & Hurin in Cairhien, after the fire at the inn.

Verin Healed or Delved Mat several times, in Cairhien after the fire, and later on the journey to Toman Head, but not to no visible effect.

Verin did a form of Healing for everybody on the Toman Head trip except Rand, who refused.

Thus, because of using Healing on them, Verin has a certain awareness of Rand, Mat, Perrin, Hurin, all of the men who accompanied her on the journey to Toman Head and Falme, and also each of the Aes Sedai taken prisoner at Dumai's Wells, with the exception of Katerine Alruddin, who escaped. She may also have that awareness of Egwene, Nynaeve, and Elayne, from using Healing on them in some way during the period between their rescue at Falme and reaching Tar Valon again.

Verin's father: "It's time to roll the dice."

Verin did something long ago in Far Madding so that arrest warrants were signed, and she suspects they might still be in force, so she doesn't use her own name there.

Verin and Alanna Mosvani were in the Two Rivers during Perrin's heroics there. Verin kept Alanna from bonding Perrin. The pair of them recruited a fairly large number of Two Rivers girls; by the time they had the girls to Caemlyn, they had learned of the Tower breaking.

Pg 303

Verin and Alanna had contact with the rebel embassy to Rand in Caemlyn, and were taken into the group entirely with the arrival of Bera Harkin and Kiruna Nachiman.

Alanna and Verin wanted to be Rand's advisers/guides, especially after learning that Moiraine is "dead."

Verin was not upset over Alanna bonding Rand against his will as she made out. She wants a string to Rand; Alanna, emotionally vulnerable because of her Warder's death, can be manipulated into being that string; and using Alanna provides a little distance for Verin, and maybe a little safety.

Faeldrin Harella, Kiruna Nachiman, Bera Harkin, Rafela Cindal, Masuri Sokawa (with Perrin, not Cadsuane), Seonid Traighan (with Perrin, not Cadsuane), Verin Mathwin, Alanna Mosvani, and Merana Ambrey followed after Rand when he fled them in Caemlyn. All were forced to swear fealty to him after Dumai's Wells. These sisters are now treated like apprentices by the Wise Ones, and considered apprentices, especially Kiruna, who Sorilea made a project of hers. They have also been co-opted by Cadsuane, especially Alanna, who is useful for keeping track of Rand. All intend to keep their oaths of fealty to the best of their ability, however reluctantly, but none of them can stand up to Cadsuane, at least not openly.

Once declared da'tsang, the sisters captured at Dumai's Wells were kept apart, not allowed to speak to one another, and rarely to see one another even a distance. Most are not aware that the other captives are being treated exactly the same as they. Until informed by Verin, none had any real idea of why they were being treated so; the general belief was that it was some method of trying to break them. Most were not even sure that the others remained alive.

Until being taken to Verin, Beldeine hadn't seen another captive since reaching the tents.

In addition to Beldeine, Verin definitely questioned Irgain Fatamed, a Green who had been stilled by Rand, and also Turanna Norill, a White.

In response to Sorilea's question about what shamed wetlanders, Verin prepared a list which she passed on without the other sisters knowing (she hopes) and which details a number of things she believes will work on the captive sisters as Sorilea wishes.

Verin learned that Katerine Alruddin had escaped and was angry over it. Aeron told her not to tell Rand since he did not need to be worried over petty concerns.

Verin first thought of Rand in the way Siuan and Leane still do -- as stubborn and stronger-willed than expected, but still malleable with a little work -- yet with longer exposure she has changed that opinion. She now thinks that whatever the surface of him might be, his core may be about as malleable as granite.

She spent some time in the company of Mat and Perrin during THE GREAT HUNT, and think she has a line on what makes each of them tick.

Page 304

Re Verin not handing over Corianin Nedeal's papers to Egwene; aside from the fact that Corianin noted that she herself did best in ignorance, and made more and greater mistakes the more she thought she knew what was going on -- even after realizing that fact -- there might be some evidence and/or info about the Black Ajah in the papers which Verin must, by her new Oaths, hide. This last must be looked at in light of the fact that she "considered" giving her the papers but decided not to. Remember that Corianin was a dreamer; she may have noted down some interpretation of a dream or dreams, possibly just before her death, that has pertinence today and is dangerous from Verin's pov. It could have been earlier, especially if Corianin interpreted something that she obviously saw had no pertinence to her own time/world. Or it could be something that gives a key/lead toward the type of "Compulsion" that Verin uses.

Verin is of the stated opinion that Corianin Nedeal barely deserved the name of Dreamer.

Remember that Verin almost certainly recognized "Lord Luc" in the Two Rivers.

Remember that Verin has referred to Perrin's choice of the axe or the hammer.

Remember that Siuan says Verin never told her about giving Egwene a ter'angreal.

She did a study of girls coming to the White Tower who had already begun to channel, and discovered that two sorts of tricks predominated by far. The second most popular was some way to eavesdrop, while the first could be called "a way to get what I want." That could be to make Father buy her yet another new dress, or make Mother let her see a boy Mother doesn't approve of, or make a boy ask her dance or whatever. These things smack of Compulsion -- not only a forgotten Talent, but one that would be among the forbidden if it was known -- so first off the girls are broken of using them, though this is given out as part of making sure they don't channel without guidance until they are far enough along. In fact, the breaking takes so well with some girls that they forget how to do the weaves. For that matter, most of the others could as easily walk through a fire as use them.

Verin studied these abilities. Not surprisingly, given that they were all created by girls with no training, the methods vary widely, are usually extremely crude, and are almost always extremely specific. Even so, Verin has managed to learn how to put together a form of each with wider applications. Because of the original source, however, these methods have considerable limits.

Eavesdropping, Verin's method of: Limits? Maybe, unlike Moiraine and Egwene (and maybe Aviendha), she does not need a focus.

Compulsion, Verin's method/version of: This has a number of differences from true Compulsion, though it is related of course, and would almost certainly be considered the same as Compulsion if it were discovered by other sisters. It is not quick, for one thing. It takes some time to get the weaves -- complex because of the many sources -- just right. The subject needs to be off-guard, and it is better if the subject is emotionally vulnerable in some way. She cannot make anyone do

Pg 305

anything they truly would never do, though some of the girls seemed to be able to with their more specific weaves. If the subject cannot come up with his or her own reason for doing the thing, the weave will eventually fade without doing its job. Also, people who are strong-willed sometimes break free of the weave. In some, this could take the form of suddenly wondering why on earth they ever did what they did, and in others, of actually forgetting that they have done it. Part of her weave makes the subject forget that they were the subject of a weave, if they knew, and that part has never broken down. Another point is that she cannot tell the person what he or she is to do until the weaves are just right, or else they will remember that. When Verin is done, the subject remembers at most a dizzy spell, or maybe fainting. After that, it is up to the subject to find a reason to do what Verin wants that the subject can live with, and under the small-c compulsion of the weave, the subject will try very hard.

Another difficulty, from her point of view, is that it works much better on women than on men. She doesn't understand this, since some of the girls used theirs on fathers and boyfriends, but a man is much more likely to break free without doing she wants and also considerably more likely to question the action once done. Once, a man actually remembered what she had done, which caused no end of difficulty.

This is really not a patch on the true Compulsion, certainly not on the particularly subtle forms Graendal knows, but it does have one advantage over the larger form. Except for Graendal's forms, Compulsion can often be detected by those who know what they are looking for, by a Healer doing a simple check for health, by example. Verin's form is as undetectable as anything that Graendal can do.

Remember the secret: she is Black, though pulled into it unwillingly when she was investigating more than 70 years ago. She was researching tales and rumors of the Black Ajah and found herself in a position where she could either join or die. Decided on the spot she could do more trying to fight them from within than by dying. Has done the best she could while held to the Black Ajah oaths to still do as much good as she could.

Verin accompanied Cadsuane to Far Madding (where she uses an assumed name and nit is revealed that there might still be charges open against "Verin Mathwin") and then to Shadar Logoth.

GH 4 -- Verin Mathwin and Serafelle: mmp 53-54. First appearances.

GH7, mmp 448 -- Tiedra, Mistress: innkeeper, The Great Tree, Cairhien; Verin has stayed there before (mmp 447); knows Verin is Aes Sedai; warm smiles.

GH 41 -- mmp 581; Verin doesn't lessen the rainstorm because, she says, if she used that much of the Power, any Aes Sedai (or damane) closer than ten miles would know she had channeled. She could, in any case, only lessen a storm of that size

Pg 306

somewhat by herself.

GH 44 -- mmp 620-; Verin says, or implies, that damane might feel a man channeling unless the amount were small; what she has said is an untruth, as far as she knows;

DR 21 -- mmp 235 on; description of Verin's study in the Tower.
Mmp 237; Verin's report on the thirteen Black sisters who fled the Tower.
SR 33, mmp 539 -- Verin warns Perrin to watch Alanna; typifies Tower plots.

X

Terez 04-27-2017 10:40 PM

I asked Alan last time I was at the library what was up with the gray text, and this is what he said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan
I'm pretty sure the light gray font you saw was a monotone copy of red type. Which raises the question, why red? I can think of three instances why the original would have been written in red: 1) Jim had asked Maria or me a question about something that had happened in past books (such as continuity questions), we responded in red to set off from the question in black, and somewhere along the line Jim pasted the response into his notes; 2) Jim typed it in red to bring the passage to his own attention, for a specific reason; and 3) sometimes he typed pages and pages in red, for no discernible reason-- maybe just for variety?


fionwe1987 04-27-2017 11:21 PM

Amazing stuff Terez and Linda! Thanks so much for doing all this.

So, I'm a bit confused about Sedore (and Velina). The Companion says Sedore doesn't even know Alviarin's name, or that she's BA. But Velina's entry says she and Sedore are the only two who know Alviarin, which is untrue since Galina knows Alviarin, and is second in command to her.

Also, any other members listed as being in the Supreme Council? Sheriam, I would think, given what Egwene said Verin reported about her. Anything else interesting on Sheriam? Was she always marked for the Black? And do the Blacks try hard to have BA member as Mistress of Novices?

Interesting to know Siuan wanted Elayne and Rand separated. We know she did send Min with the embassy, so that part seems to have made it to the books.

Linda: the Lanfear thing is interesting. I think RJ may have seen LTT as a class apart, not in raw strength, but as the complete package, when you consider strength and skill. Looks like Lanfear was right up there, which kind of makes sense.

Terez: Glad to finally have an explanation for Corianin's notes not being passed on to Egwene. The BA stuff makes sense, but not wanting to give Egwene preconceptions is an interesting angle. Might make a lot of sense if you're never going to receive formal training, but I wonder what the Wise Ones would think of the notion... :D

The Verin entry doesn't seem to have any specifics of how she was forced to turn Black. I wish RJ had fleshed that out, it might have made a fascinating short story. No clue on how powerful her angreal was either, eh?

Terez, any more notes on Sierin Vayu? Did Siuan's note tip her off to Chesmal's role in Tamra's death and the vileness?

Terez 04-27-2017 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241577)
Amazing stuff Terez and Linda! Thanks so much for doing all this.

So, I'm a bit confused about Sedore (and Velina). The Companion says Sedore doesn't even know Alviarin's name, or that she's BA. But Velina's entry says she and Sedore are the only two who know Alviarin, which is untrue since Galina knows Alviarin, and is second in command to her.

In both cases, it's prefaced by "MAYBE; MAYBE NOT:" so it wasn't set in stone (not that anything was, really). One of them might have taken Galina's place, but either way, I'm sure there was something in the notes, somewhere, that caused them to go another way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241577)
Also, any other members listed as being in the Supreme Council? Sheriam, I would think, given what Egwene said Verin reported about her.

There's no indication that she had any real power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241577)
Anything else interesting on Sheriam? Was she always marked for the Black?

Definitely not. She's not marked as Black in her entry in this file. It wasn't Brandon's choice, though; there's indications that RJ had decided on her being Black in other files. I'll have to dig it out later when I'm home and have more time, unless Marie wants to do it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 241577)
Terez, any more notes on Sierin Vayu? Did Siuan's note tip her off to Chesmal's role in Tamra's death and the vileness?

I will look tomorrow. It's our last day in the library, though, and I want to see if I can find some deleted scenes, so I'm not going to spend much time on the Aes Sedai file if I can help it.

fionwe1987 04-27-2017 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 241578)
In both cases, it's prefaced by "MAYBE; MAYBE NOT:" so it wasn't set in stone (not that anything was, really). One of them might have taken Galina's place, but either way, I'm sure there was something in the notes, somewhere, that caused them to go another way.

Ahh, so RJ was leaving himself room on this. Makes sense.

Quote:

There's no indication that she had any real power.
Except Egwene's statement to her in tGS that Verin told her Sheriam was high in the Black's organization. Sheriam also seems to know Verin, meaning they were in the same heart, or she knew of several other Blacks.

Quote:

Definitely not. She's not marked as Black in her entry in this file. It wasn't Brandon's choice, though; there's indications that RJ had decided on her being Black in other files. I'll have to dig it out later when I'm home and have more time, unless Marie wants to do it.
I was actually taken aback when she was revealed Black. It makes sense, but something about her seemed to make me think she wasn't. I was pretty sure we'd just see her die or something. I do prefer it this way though.

Quote:

I will look tomorrow. It's our last day in the library, though, and I want to see if I can find some deleted scenes, so I'm not going to spend much time on the Aes Sedai file if I can help it.
Deleted scenes would be awesome! Thanks again for all this!

Tamyrlin 04-28-2017 09:56 AM

Moiraine
 
Quote:

They have been rummaging through her experiences, making her relive them in the form of dreams that seem like real life, raping her mind in effect. They concentrated on things that engendered strong emotion, whether love or hate or fear of whatever, so long as it is strong. The point is to feed off the engendered emotion. When repetition dulls the emotion, they would alter the events to make the emotions strong again. They always made these changes in slow increments, just enough to strengthen the emotion again without wasting any. Example: Lan dumped in the pond, first just as it really happened, then he became rougher at it until [he] beat her first, and she was so shocked she could not channel; then he made love to her; then he raped her; then she killed him. Slow progressions through possibilities, however improbable they were in reality, just so long as they intensify the emotions. They could not introduce things outside of her memory -- for example, somebody she has never seen -- but anything in there already could be rearranged any way they wanted. Example: she could as a grown woman watch her mother (dead before she reached adulthood) plot and execute the murder of her father (who died in battle when she was a child) with a collection of people glimpsed during her travels.
That portion of Moiraine's entry is incredible. That will change my next read through, certainly, even in anticipation of what is going to happen to her. It also speaks to the Finns capabilities, and makes them even more terrifying than ever before. No wonder they made an agreement with the use of the ter'angreal doorways.

Tamyrlin 04-28-2017 10:06 AM

Verin and Alanna
 
Quote:

Verin was not upset over Alanna bonding Rand against his will as she made out. She wants a string to Rand; Alanna, emotionally vulnerable because of her Warder's death, can be manipulated into being that string; and using Alanna provides a little distance for Verin, and maybe a little safety.
I misread this the first time I saw it...but it provides a little bit of room to play. Verin wasn't upset. She wanted a string. Alanna was vulnerable and could be manipulated. Unfortunately, it leans towards after the fact, though the notes still leave room to believe there was prior manipulation of Alanna with intent to create that string.

Tamyrlin 04-28-2017 10:11 AM

Lanfear
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda (Post 241574)
I found this information on Lanfear in some notes for TDR.

"Selene: [Lanfear]

She may use other names, other appearances. She can, within very broad limits, change both her apparent age and her physical appearance. Not her general size, though. She is always the same height, etc.] No matter what Ba’alzamon wants, she has her own plans. She wants power for herself, for one thing, and none of that sitting at the feet of Ba’alzamon and ruling all below. Power in her own right, with none above her. Beside that, she wants Rand al’Thor. More specifically, she wants Lews Therin Telamon reborn. When he last lived, she lost him to another; this time she means him to be hers. She is a Power Wielder at least the equal of Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, who was accounted the most powerful of the Forsaken, but she never liked flaunting her ability, preferring to let others think she was less powerful than she actually was. This made them careless, and gave her advantages. She may well have been close to Lews Therin himself in strength."

This limits illusion a little differently than in the books. The suggestion that Lanfear disguised her ability is not new but the relative strength of Ishamael and LTT is implied to be wider than in the books. Her motivations are unwavering however.

I do love the suggestion in the notes, whether Jordan changed his mind and diminished her power later on, that originally he was intending for her to be at least the strength level of Ishamael (implied to if not greater). That is dead on how I see her relevance to the over story arc, and where she comes in as far as potential impact and raw power.

WOT Ethnographer 04-28-2017 12:58 PM

More questions
 
Thanks to Terez and Linda for sharing the treasures of your search.

I would like to echo fionwe1987 for any further details on unusual OP abilities and Talents, including if there is any more information on Milking Tears, Spinning Earthfire, and the Voice?

Maybe even any further details on the question if Compulsion is a Talent or just an ability? The Companion says no, obviously, but the Verin bio you posted mentions it as a Talent as Moghedien's POV in the series (in ACOS I think).

Also, any further details you can share about the One Power Strength levels would be appreciated. Some current questions I have:

In the notes, are there further different rankings about approximately how much weight the different strength levels can use the Power to lift? i.e. Moiraine's entry you just shared that said she could only "pick up a book with effort."

Is there anywhere in the notes a clear articulation of the level of strength needed to become Accepted?

Finally, Is the bottom of the OP scale 66(55) or 72 (60) as mentioned in the Companion, Strength in the One Power entry: "Strength level 56( 44) was the 300-year age level, 67( 55) the 200-year age level, and the bottom level, 72( 60), approximately the 150-year level for women. The male equivalents were approximately the 240-year, 180-year, and 135-year levels for men." I assume Morgase occupies this bottom level, but I am not sure that Moiraine does.


Thanks again+

Linda 04-28-2017 07:31 PM

Some answers
 
Quote:

I would like to echo fionwe1987 for any further details on unusual OP abilities and Talents, including if there is any more information on Milking Tears, Spinning Earthfire, and the Voice?
Nothing new on these.

Quote:

Maybe even any further details on the question if Compulsion is a Talent or just an ability? The Companion says no, obviously, but the Verin bio you posted mentions it as a Talent as Moghedien's POV in the series (in ACOS I think).
Described as a weave:

"Compulsion: a complex weave that compels the subject to do one’s will; a favourite of Graendal and other Forsaken; uses Air, Spirit and Water; Rahvin just used a weave of Spirit."

Incidentally, Skimming is also described as a weave.

However, Illusion is called a Talent:

"Illusion: a Talent, aka Mask of Mirrors or Mirror of Mists, which allows one to change appearance; term used by Forsaken; uses Air and Fire."

Listening to the Wind refers to two different weaves:

"Listening to the Wind: Wisdoms with the spark use it to predict storms; also, a weave that when woven through the sky, can draw moisture to create rain clouds; uses Air and Water."

This is also effectively a Talent, since for the first type (which Nynaeve showed) she never channelled to do it even after she knew and accepted that she could channel.

Most of the information on weaves and talents is as per my weaves and talents article, or not as good as it.

No more info on the strength ranking of the kind about the levels to be Accepted. In fact, there's a fair amount of overlap eg for Travelling, because it is a Talent as well as a weave.

Morgase would be lower than Moiraine, who would be next lowest. Moiraine is 66. Morgase would be lower than that, whether it is 68 or 70 or 72 is not known.

Terez 04-28-2017 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WOT Ethnographer (Post 241597)
Finally, Is the bottom of the OP scale 66(55) or 72 (60) as mentioned in the Companion, Strength in the One Power entry: "Strength level 56( 44) was the 300-year age level, 67( 55) the 200-year age level, and the bottom level, 72( 60), approximately the 150-year level for women. The male equivalents were approximately the 240-year, 180-year, and 135-year levels for men." I assume Morgase occupies this bottom level, but I am not sure that Moiraine does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linda (Post 241598)
Morgase would be lower than Moiraine, who would be next lowest. Moiraine is 66. Morgase would be lower than that, whether it is 68 or 70 or 72 is not known.

I'm still not entirely sure about this. I never saw anything in the notes that indicates that power levels go that low; of course it's quite possible that we missed something, but Moiraine's level was the lowest given at 66(54). This is strange because RJ said in his COT/KOD notes that the level at which the ability to lift drops to a feather was 57(45), which is exactly why we had Morgase pegged at that level or slightly below, but apparently Moiraine can pick up a book with effort. I think 57(45) is the level they chose for Sorilea in the Companion, even though it says 57(35); that's clearly a typo. RJ never decided, I don't think - he always gave a range for her in the notes, between 51(39) and 60(48). Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that 66 isn't rock-bottom for women; we'll see if this changes in the next edition of the Companion. I rather liked the idea of there being 72 levels total, including the 6 extra male levels. This is why we had decided there were probably 6 extra male levels on top of the female levels before the Companion even came out, and the lowest strength given for a man was ++3. In other words, we had no other reason to assume it was 6 levels, but this was confirmed in a Logain bit I pulled out of the notes today:

Quote:

Strength: ++2 (that is, one step below Rand and five steps above the strongest women.)
That's from Box 59 Folder 1. I mostly skimmed through that file; not much interesting in it aside from this:

Quote:

Page 99

Rand has 3 weakened seals (1 from Tear, 1 from Rhuidean, 1 from Taim). The one from Taim given at least temporarily into Bashere's keeping. Knows 3 are broken, thinks 1 may be whole somewhere unknown. Actually, the other 4 all are broken. Moiraine recovered 1 broken seal at the Eye, gave it to Siuan; its remains are now in Tower (Rand saw this one). She recovered 2 more at Falme, both broken; end destination unknown; they were not sent on to the Tower with Elayne, Egwene et al (Rand saw these also). Nynaeve and Elayne recovered one whole in Tanchico, but it was broken on way to Salidar; the remains were given to Sheriam and her council and are now in the possession of the rebel Hall of the Tower. Thus, the only unbroken seals are the 3 in Rand's possession, 1 from the Stone of Tear, 1 from Rhuidean and 1 from Taim.

Rand knows that 3 of the seals are broken (the two at Falme and the one from the Eye of the World), but he doesn't know that the seventh seal (the one taken to Salidar) also has been broken. AT LEAST, NOT UNTIL HE LEARNS IT FROM NYNAEVE.
And that is only barely interesting.

Terez 04-29-2017 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tamyrlin (Post 241588)
I misread this the first time I saw it...

I thought about saying something but I figured you would figure it out eventually. :p


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